Skill checks make me frown

[Yahzi]

I'm writing up an adventure. At one point the characters might have to swim 100' through an underwater tunnel, 50' more feet to the surface, and then 500' to shore. This is all in calm water, so the DC is only 10.

If you let the characters Take 10, a character with a swim skill of 1 and a CON of at least 5 automatically makes it. I.e., a child from Saturday morning swim classes.

If you make the characters roll, then even a swim skill +18 means you probably fail and drown (since you need to make 40 rolls). In fact, it's statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in D&D; a check every 15' still means you'll roll a 1, at which point you go underwater and apparently start holding your breath until you drown.

:smallfurious:

So I guess I'll make up a special rule for this, but how annoying that I have to make up a special rule instead of just saying, "This is how far the characters have to swim" and leave it to the rules.

Here's what I came up with:


Each character makes a DC 5 swim check. The characters roll one at a time; if a character misses his roll, a character who hasn't rolled yet can accept a penalty to give him a bonus (i.e. the next person in line helps out). Of course this increases the chance that the helping character will fail.
A normal success means the character reaches shore but is Exhausted. Succeeding by 5+ means the character is merely Fatigued; succeeding by 10+ means the character is unaffected. A failure means the character drowns.


Calculations: Base DC 10 for still water, increased to a Moderate task for underwater and distance - a trained professional usually succeeds. With a -10 for two levels of success with penalty (i.e. fatigue conditions).

What do you think?

[Venger]

"This is how far the characters have to swim"
You're absolutely allowed to do this. Just do this.

[Kobold Esq]

What's wrong with just letting them take 10?

(And unless your players are very different than most I've played with, many won't be able to make a DC 10 swim check taking 10, between armor check penalties, carrying heavy objects, etc. Basically no one ever puts points into swim/jump/climb unless they have to)

[Pex]

Why is it bothering you the party can Take 10, do flavor text of swimming where they need to go, and continue the actual adventure? Why do you want them to risk drowning? Why is swimming an important matter in this particular case of just going where they need to go that they can die from it?

It's ok for PCs to just do things. Not everything needs a risk of failure.

[Yahzi]

Why is it bothering you the party can Take 10, do flavor text of swimming where they need to go, and continue the actual adventure?
Well, narratively, because it's supposed to be a penalty for being stupid (they should have known better to open that door). And because it's supposed to limit access to the dungeon, so they can't just waltz in and out after their 15' minutes of adventuring. Part of dungeon design is controlling access with a variety of choices: a party with a few strong swimmers might leave their heavy armor behind and use this route, while other parties might choose other options.

But also because I wouldn't want to try this feat, and I'm a reasonably competent swimmer.

It's true that no one puts points into swim, but then, why should they? Any given swim check is either a) trivial or b) fatal. Why even have the skill, then? (Edit: I suppose there's some value to that - either you spent a point on swim or you didn't. Kinda like literacy.)

[zlefin]

I'm writing up an adventure. At one point the characters might have to swim 100' through an underwater tunnel, 50' more feet to the surface, and then 500' to shore. This is all in calm water, so the DC is only 10.

If you let the characters Take 10, a character with a swim skill of 1 and a CON of at least 5 automatically makes it. I.e., a child from Saturday morning swim classes.

If you make the characters roll, then even a swim skill +18 means you probably fail and drown (since you need to make 40 rolls). In fact, it's statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in D&D; a check every 15' still means you'll roll a 1, at which point you go underwater and apparently start holding your breath until you drown.

:smallfurious:

So I guess I'll make up a special rule for this, but how annoying that I have to make up a special rule instead of just saying, "This is how far the characters have to swim" and leave it to the rules.

Here's what I came up with:


Each character makes a DC 5 swim check. The characters roll one at a time; if a character misses his roll, a character who hasn't rolled yet can accept a penalty to give him a bonus (i.e. the next person in line helps out). Of course this increases the chance that the helping character will fail.
A normal success means the character reaches shore but is Exhausted. Succeeding by 5+ means the character is merely Fatigued; succeeding by 10+ means the character is unaffected. A failure means the character drowns.


Calculations: Base DC 10 for still water, increased to a Moderate task for underwater and distance - a trained professional usually succeeds. With a -10 for two levels of success with penalty (i.e. fatigue conditions).

What do you think?

i'm not seeing the necessity of your proposal.
so what if someone rolls a 1? if their skill is high enough rolling a 1 wouldn't be a serious problem.
the amount of time you're allowed to hold your breath is unrealistically high imho; that's more breath-holding in a non-active situation; when you're seriously moving you can't hold your breath for nearly as long.
drowning doens't kick in that fast by the rules.
saying i'ts statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in dnd makes no sense; it seems like you're not understanding the swim rules. rolling a 1 isn't that problematic unless you do it repeatedly (at laest if i'm reading it right, haven't used the swim rules much)

[Yahzi]

saying i'ts statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in dnd makes no sense; it seems like you're not understanding the swim rules. rolling a 1 isn't that problematic unless you do it repeatedly (at laest if i'm reading it right, haven't used the swim rules much)
Rolling a 1 while swimming either does a) nothing, or b) kills you.

The rules say when you fail your check by 5 or more, you sink. It then starts talking about holding your breath. Now, if you can just make another swim check next round, then there is no penalty for sinking, since everyone can hold their breath for CONx2 rounds. On the other hand, if you can't make another swim check next round, you're going to drown after CONx2 + 3 rounds.

Maybe the intent was you could only drown if you failed your roll by 5 or more for CONx2 times in a row? But statistically, you're going to roll a 20 during one of those 20 rounds, which implies you make your check, can move a few feet, and more importantly catch your breath and reset the drowning clock.

So either it's nigh-impossible to drown with a skill of 1, or it's impossible not to drown with a skill of 14.

I mean, the essential point that a D20 is a terrible way to model continuous processes is fairly obvious; but still, in this case, it seems particularly problematic (climbing is just as bad).

[zergling.exe]

Rolling a 1 while swimming either does a) nothing, or b) kills you.

The rules say when you fail your check by 5 or more, you sink. It then starts talking about holding your breath. Now, if you can just make another swim check next round, then there is no penalty for sinking, since everyone can hold their breath for CONx2 rounds. On the other hand, if you can't make another swim check next round, you're going to drown after CONx2 + 3 rounds.

Maybe the intent was you could only drown if you failed your roll by 5 or more for CONx2 times in a row? But statistically, you're going to roll a 20 during one of those 20 rounds, which implies you make your check, can move a few feet, and more importantly catch your breath and reset the drowning clock.

So either it's nigh-impossible to drown with a skill of 1, or it's impossible not to drown with a skill of 14.

I mean, the essential point that a D20 is a terrible way to model continuous processes is fairly obvious; but still, in this case, it seems particularly problematic (climbing is just as bad).

Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1 or auto-succeed on a 20. That only happens with Attack Rolls and Saving Throws, no other d20 rolls have special effects. 1s always failing and 20s always succeeding is an obnoxiously common house rule.

[Kobold Esq]

Any given swim check is either a) trivial or b) fatal.

Congratulations, you've accurately described real world cave diving. You either prep enough with training and equipment so that you 100% absolutely know you are coming back alive, or you risk DEATH. Sounds like your main issue is you think the DC is too low or you think holding your breath is too easy.

https://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2016/10/19/453789e5-fd9e-4e14-943f-879092d7d348/thumbnail/1200x630/171ccab3c284235f6984bf08561d0927/nfa-bojorquez-fl-deadly-cave-diving-needs-track-and-gfx-frame-525.jpg

[Yahzi]

You either prep enough with training and equipment so that you 100% absolutely know you are coming back alive, or you risk DEATH.
So that's Swim as a feat, not a skill: you either have it, or you don't. If you have it, then water poses no real danger to you (unless you do something stupid like swim in a hurricane). If you don't, then going into the water is essentially a random chance to die.

That's reasonably realistic and would work as a game option: only the truly desperate would ever go into the water (which kind of described the middle ages, where even lots of sailors couldn't swim). But if we can't get players to spend even 1 skill point on Swim, we'll never get them to waste a feat on it. :smallbiggrin:


Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1 or auto-succeed on a 20.
OK, good point: you can only drown in still water if you have a skill of 4 or less. That's a lot better; characters should generally have a skill of 0 or 4 anyway. But it's skill kind of like a feat: either you have 4 ranks +1 DEX modifier, or getting into the water is a 5% chance of dying.

(Unless you can keep making swim checks after you go under, in which case no one ever drowns).

So either I make up a rule (like the one I did) or I accept that characters with Swim defeat this particular obstacle. That's fine; the more I think about it as a feat, the less it bothers me. Swimming as a skill is just silly anyway; while it's true some people swim faster than others, some people also read faster than others, but Literacy isn't a skill. You can either do it, or you can't.

Should Climb fall into the same category? Either you know what you're doing and it's safe, or you don't and every time you get into a tree you're taking your life into your hands. Hmm doesn't seem so obvious with Climb.

EDIT: And my made-up rule matches that. Characters with normal swim skill auto-defeat the challenge; those without have a 50% chance of dying (since they have a -4 for no skill). All I've done is invented a way for good swimmers to help bad swimmers and added some Fatigue levels. Which the DM could make up on the fly if the party was stuck. OK, then. That's better.

[Kobold Esq]

(unless you do something stupid like swim in a hurricane)

Again, you are accurately describing real world swimming. A trained swimmer in calm water will almost never be at risk of drowning barring something that induces a penalty (cramp?), raises the DC (rough water), or prevents taking 10 (something distracting or threatening, such as circling sharks, rough water, arrows flying at you).

I think you may be inventing a problem where there isn't one, as I'm not certain you're correctly reading the swim skill.


SWIM (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)

Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress through the water. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.

If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown.

So if a 30 speed human is swimming 150 feet (100 across, 50 up) underwater, taking full round actions to swim 15 feet would mean 10 rounds to get through your tunnel. Every full round action reduces the "breath counter" by an extra round however, so the swimmer functionally needs 20 con to make it all the way without risk. So anyone less than 20 con needs to make constitution checks to make it to the end. The issue is not going to be the ability to make forward progress (since as you mentioned it is calm water), but the fact that your hypothetical 5 CON child will have to start making constitution checks a mere 45 feet into the tunnel, starting at 1d20-3.

I think your hypothetical 5 con child shouldn't be cave diving.

[Yahzi]

Every full round action reduces the "breath counter" by an extra round however
Except it specifically says you can hold your breath for CON rounds if you only take move actions. Is a double-move a full round action or two move actions?


A trained swimmer in calm water will almost never be at risk of drowning
Agreed. Swimming is more like a feat than a skill. You can do it or you can't.

Like the cave-diving example, people who try to swim above their automatic success level run a significant and serious risk of dying. So this is another case where Take 10 makes the skill work. If your Take 10 score meets or exceeds the DC, you auto-succeed; if not, you have a 5% or higher chance of dying.

[Crake]

I'm really confused how you're coming to some of these conclusions.


I'm writing up an adventure. At one point the characters might have to swim 100' through an underwater tunnel, 50' more feet to the surface, and then 500' to shore. This is all in calm water, so the DC is only 10.

Okay, so far so good. 150' underwater is 10 rounds of full round action swimming


If you let the characters Take 10, a character with a swim skill of 1 and a CON of at least 5 automatically makes it. I.e., a child from Saturday morning swim classes.

Here we find our first wrong assumption. The duration you can survive holding your breath is equal to twice your con score if you're not doing anything strenuous. Swimming, especially as a full round action, would certainly be strenuous, so you would at least require 10 con to be able to make the distance. Additionally, you would only need a swim modifier of +0 to be able to take 10 all the way. The DC is 10, not 11.


If you make the characters roll, then even a swim skill +18 means you probably fail and drown (since you need to make 40 rolls). In fact, it's statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in D&D; a check every 15' still means you'll roll a 1, at which point you go underwater and apparently start holding your breath until you drown.

Here's another strange conclusion. A character with +18 cannot roll below a 19, which easily beats the DC of 10. A bonus of +9 is all you need to never fail, and a bonus of +4 is all you need to never risk falling underwater while swimming on the surface. Admittedly, making no progress through the water 25% of the time will likely make you drown, but that's what taking 10 is for. Remember, there are times when you can't take 10, such as combat, or when something's distracting you, like the potential threat of combat.


So I guess I'll make up a special rule for this, but how annoying that I have to make up a special rule instead of just saying, "This is how far the characters have to swim" and leave it to the rules.

Here's what I came up with:


Each character makes a DC 5 swim check. The characters roll one at a time; if a character misses his roll, a character who hasn't rolled yet can accept a penalty to give him a bonus (i.e. the next person in line helps out). Of course this increases the chance that the helping character will fail.
A normal success means the character reaches shore but is Exhausted. Succeeding by 5+ means the character is merely Fatigued; succeeding by 10+ means the character is unaffected. A failure means the character drowns.


Calculations: Base DC 10 for still water, increased to a Moderate task for underwater and distance - a trained professional usually succeeds. With a -10 for two levels of success with penalty (i.e. fatigue conditions).

What do you think?

Aid another is already a thing, though that would eat up your standard action, making you go even slower. Another option would be to simply have a stronger swimmer drag the other along if they fail, taking the appropriate encumbrance penalties, if you just have to make them roll. But honestly, the swim rules are fine as they are, I don't understand what's the big problem.

Edit: You aren't one of those people that things a natural 1 is an automatic fail are you? In fact... based on your +18 number, are you one of those people that has a natural 1 mean a -10 on the check? You know that variant is only supposed to apply to saves and attack rolls right? Checks that would normally be automatic successes/failures

Edit2: And yes, you can continue to make skill checks when you go underwater, to try and swim back to the surface, nothing about the swim skill says you can't.

[Yahzi]

I'm really confused how you're coming to some of these conclusions.
Later in the thread I've corrected those.


But honestly, the swim rules are fine as they are, I don't understand what's the big problem.
Now that I understand that swim should work like a feat - either you can do it, or you can't - I have a lot less problem with the rules. If you can swim, you auto-defeat swim challenges (just like literacy auto-defeats reading challenges).

If you can't, you run the risk of one bad roll killing you - every time you go in the water you might die.

If you can swim, but you try to swim above your level, you're back to percentage chance of death. The only value of your skill points is to determine what qualifies as "your level."


Edit2: And yes, you can continue to make skill checks when you go underwater, to try and swim back to the surface, nothing about the swim skill says you can't.
But then how does anyone ever drown? Surely in the 10 rounds you have holding your breath, you'll make at least one DC 10 skill check. Which puts you above water and resets the drowning clock.

Unless we posit that every time you fail you sink 15' feet, meaning that you need a success just to get back to where you were, and then a success to get back to the air.

[Esprit15]

Most people don't drown in calm water. They drown when they are tired (taking penalties), distracted (can't take 10), or get tangled up (can't reach air in time). Think about going to a pool. Most days, a lifeguard is not necessary. They basically enforce rules (which exist to prevent all of the above dangers), but only have to help a drowning person occasionally. Often, the person is not a strong swimmer and is tired. Mechanically, they are fatigued and may have a strength penalty, such that staying afloat isn't a casual thing.

[Nifft]

I like rolls for exciting things.

20+ swim checks in a row, when you're not being pursued, just doesn't sound exciting.

Now, if the PCs were being pursued by a dragon turtle -- or if they're shackled to the princess and both of them are being dragged over rough coral by a speed boat through shark-infested waters -- then that's different.

[Nibbens]

I like rolls for exciting things.

20+ swim checks in a row, when you're not being pursued, just doesn't sound exciting.

Now, if the PCs were being pursued by a dragon turtle -- or if they're shackled to the princess and both of them are being dragged over rough coral by a speed boat through shark-infested waters -- then that's different.

I have to agree.

For the OP, i'd say let them take 10's... that is until they come to that drain that's causing a whirlpool halfway through. THEN make them roll. Treat it as a trap or hazard.

It's fair, as the PCs have to go this way because of their stupid decisions. A whirlpool sucking them down and providing resistance to swim checks, etc, provides the needed danger for the situation, and also allows the PCs to do some heroic things to save their allies. That seems to satisfy the conditions you were looking for.

Also, as a side note, did no one prepare any of the numerous water breathing spells/items/apparatuses? Seems like a good idea for this section.

[Kobold Esq]

Except it specifically says you can hold your breath for CON rounds if you only take move actions. Is a double-move a full round action or two move actions?

Except you don't by default, get two move actions. You may use a standard action to do anything a move action can do, but that still uses your standard action to do so.

"If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round."

[Zaq]

I say that if they aren't in combat, one Swim check should be sufficient. Don't roll every round. The rules say to do that, but those rules are dumb. Same with Climb and Balance and other mobility-related skills. Out of combat, one movement-related roll should cover one challenge unless the nature of the challenge substantially changes (swimming across open water versus swimming through an underwater tunnel, for instance).

Of course, we also have to take a step back and remember one of the most fundamental rules of GMing: never call for a die roll unless both success and failure are interesting. If it's not interesting for the PCs to get stuck in the water and the plot cannot progress any other way, then assume that they're competent as long as they haven't been hampered in a meaningful way—unless they've done something interesting to address said hampering condition. At which point the fun part comes from "how can we use the tools on hand (literal or metaphorical) to overcome this obstacle?" rather than "did we all roll well enough on a basic skill check?"

If it is interesting that one or more PCs might drown or get stuck, then please have fun with that. But never call for a die roll just for the sake of a die roll, and if the rules call for forty rounds of the same die roll over and over, you're either running a ridiculous marathon combat or you've found a spot where the rules do not serve to make the game fun.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But then how does anyone ever drown? Surely in the 10 rounds you have holding your breath, you'll make at least one DC 10 skill check. Which puts you above water and resets the drowning clock.
You probably don't drown in calm water, no. You drown in stormy water, where you need to hit a DC 15 just to stay above water and you can't take 10. The only way you're likely to drown in calm water is if you're heavily armored/encumbered and don't really know how to swim, or if you're swimming for hours and start taking nonlethal damage. Player characters won't have the latter state happen, though, because 1d6 damage/hour is nothing.

And, more importantly, because they're goddamn heroes. Heroes don't die because they have to swim for a bit, any more than they die because they get caught in a snowstorm or get lost in the woods. If you want "swim through a tunnel" to be dangerous, you're going to need something beyond "make, like, 20 skill checks"-- in a rare confluence of rules and genre-appropriateness, "swim through a calm underground tunnel" is just as boring a challenge in play as it would be to watch in a movie.

Maybe the tunnel branches, and if they pick the wrong path they lose time and run the risk of drowning. Maybe there are treacherous currents underwater that can sweep them into side-passages or slam them into walls. Maybe there's a giant octopus in the tunnel that'll try to grab and eat them as they go past. It shouldn't need much. Swimming that 150ft through the tunnel and back to the surface will take 10 rounds of full-round actions, assuming a 30ft move speed. Just a few rounds of distraction and the Con checks will start kicking in.

[Kobold Esq]

And, more importantly, because they're goddamn heroes. Heroes don't die because they have to swim for a bit, any more than they die because they get caught in a snowstorm or get lost in the woods. If you want "swim through a tunnel" to be dangerous, you're going to need something beyond "make, like, 20 skill checks"-- in a rare confluence of rules and genre-appropriateness, "swim through a calm underground tunnel" is just as boring a challenge in play as it would be to watch in a movie.

An ember of this idea was floating around in my head, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. You explained it perfectly!

[KillianHawkeye]

Except it specifically says you can hold your breath for CON rounds if you only take move actions. Is a double-move a full round action or two move actions?

It's explicitly stated to be a full-round action.

Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action).

[Darth Ultron]

And, more importantly, because they're goddamn heroes. Heroes don't die because they have to swim for a bit, any more than they die because they get caught in a snowstorm or get lost in the woods.

Like remember when Tom Cruse in Mission Impossible 17 had to swim underwater into the huge spinning whirlpool of doom to hack the computer system?

Really the characters in D&D should only really be swimming as an adventure.

[KillianHawkeye]

Like remember when Tom Cruse in Mission Impossible 17 had to swim underwater into the huge spinning whirlpool of doom to hack the computer system?

Y'know, if that was real, I might start watching Mission Impossible movies again. :smallamused:

[Tvtyrant]

I'm writing up an adventure. At one point the characters might have to swim 100' through an underwater tunnel, 50' more feet to the surface, and then 500' to shore. This is all in calm water, so the DC is only 10.

If you let the characters Take 10, a character with a swim skill of 1 and a CON of at least 5 automatically makes it. I.e., a child from Saturday morning swim classes.

If you make the characters roll, then even a swim skill +18 means you probably fail and drown (since you need to make 40 rolls). In fact, it's statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in D&D; a check every 15' still means you'll roll a 1, at which point you go underwater and apparently start holding your breath until you drown.

:smallfurious:

So I guess I'll make up a special rule for this, but how annoying that I have to make up a special rule instead of just saying, "This is how far the characters have to swim" and leave it to the rules.

Here's what I came up with:


Each character makes a DC 5 swim check. The characters roll one at a time; if a character misses his roll, a character who hasn't rolled yet can accept a penalty to give him a bonus (i.e. the next person in line helps out). Of course this increases the chance that the helping character will fail.
A normal success means the character reaches shore but is Exhausted. Succeeding by 5+ means the character is merely Fatigued; succeeding by 10+ means the character is unaffected. A failure means the character drowns.


Calculations: Base DC 10 for still water, increased to a Moderate task for underwater and distance - a trained professional usually succeeds. With a -10 for two levels of success with penalty (i.e. fatigue conditions).

What do you think?

Taking 10 means there is little or nothing distracting you, you are focused on swimming. Not being able to take 10 means someone is shooting arrows at you, it us a storm or a shark is trying to Bite you. You should not be able to easily swim through those events unless you are aquatic.

[Afgncaap5]

Well, narratively, because it's supposed to be a penalty for being stupid (they should have known better to open that door). And because it's supposed to limit access to the dungeon, so they can't just waltz in and out after their 15' minutes of adventuring.

No need to make it non-trivial via skill checks, though. There's a few other options. Might I suggest that after they open the wrong door, their (trivial or not) swimming experience includes my dear friend Mr. Giant Octopus? Bonus points if you use Mr. G. O.'s stats and keep referring to it as a thing that shouldn't be. Imaginative players will let that work out really well.

[Kayblis]

If you make the characters roll, then even a swim skill +18 means you probably fail and drown (since you need to make 40 rolls). In fact, it's statistically impossible to swim more than 300' in D&D; a check every 15' still means you'll roll a 1, at which point you go underwater and apparently start holding your breath until you drown.

Skill checks don't autofail on a 1. If the check is DC 10 and you have at least +9 at the skill, you don't have to roll. Take 1, Take 10 and Take 20 are the three Take options in skill checks, each with its own conditions(Take 1 lets you not need to roll if you would pass on a 1). Taking 1 is different from 'choosing to fail', which is also always available.

Also, if you're one of these people that run lolsorandom games with houserules like "something bad MUST happen on a 1" or "you autosucceed at everything on a 20 no matter your skill bonuses", then don't do multiple rolls for the same thing. The game was made with its rules in mind, if you're changing the rules you need to adapt the system to your own changes, otherwise you end up with common things that become statistically impossible.

[Drakevarg]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is here.

Take 10 is for non-strenuous tasks. It means a character can take their time and go at their own pace, or aren't putting any active effort into it (passive Spot/Listen checks, for example). If a character in an otherwise calm setting is at risk of drowning on a Take 10, then they need to be making checks and it's a meaningful event. If they're not, it's akin to forcing a player to roll Balance in order to not slip and crack their skull open getting out of the bath. Unless you're running a Gygaxian campaign where the players need to roll Spot checks to notice that a random rung on the ladder isn't a kitchen knife, just assume they can handle casual tasks and move on.

Take 20 is literally brute-forcing it. You repeat the attempt until you either a) succeed, or b) satisfy that it's beyond your ability to do so. For tasks with consequences for failure (like drowning if you fail to swim) you can't Take 20.

[Elkad]

150' is long enough to be a problem.

Sure, the Human Rogue can just breeze through it (with a Con of 10+)

A creature with a speed of 20 needs a 15 Con to not roll. Granted, DC10 isn't bad, but if you fail you fall unconscious immediately, and the party only has 3 rounds to get you out of the water.

[Kobold Esq]

150' is long enough to be a problem.

Sure, the Human Rogue can just breeze through it (with a Con of 10+)

A creature with a speed of 20 needs a 15 Con to not roll. Granted, DC10 isn't bad, but if you fail you fall unconscious immediately, and the party only has 3 rounds to get you out of the water.

20+ con with speed 30, 30+ con with speed 20. Moving half your speed is a full round action, which costs you double breath rounds. This needs repeating.

[KillianHawkeye]

The fact is, nobody is going to swim such a long distance and rely on holding their breath the whole way. The only way people are swimming through this cave is with waterbreathing or something else that will let them catch a breath.

[Nifft]

Like remember when Tom Cruse in Mission Impossible 17 had to swim underwater into the huge spinning whirlpool of doom to hack the computer system?

I think you're joking, but ... James Bond does this sort of thing reasonably often.

There are basically two modes to it:
- I have sufficient preparation and this isn't particularly risky (swimming with soothing background music); or
- People are shooting at me (perhaps shooting harpoons), and time is of the essence, and this is risky (exciting background music).

The PCs should be more like James Bond. Either swim for relaxation, or swim as part of an exciting encounter. No boring deaths due to lack of preparation, please.

[Elkad]

20+ con with speed 30, 30+ con with speed 20. Moving half your speed is a full round action, which costs you double breath rounds. This needs repeating.

But you start with 2x con in rounds. So you can move at half speed (as a full round action) for Con rounds. Or quarter-move for 2x Con rounds, which is the same distance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fact is, nobody is going to swim such a long distance and rely on holding their breath the whole way. The only way people are swimming through this cave is with waterbreathing or something else that will let them catch a breath.
I mean, they can; most characters shouldn't have any trouble going the full 150ft on one breath. You shouldn't, because you can't know for sure how long the cave will be or if there will be aquatic monsters, but you can.

(I mean, really, it's one minute of swimming underwater. I think most of us could do that in a pool)

[Pex]

Not trying to be snarky.

The gist of what everyone is saying is at some point when players invest in skills they can't fail at particular tasks due to game math. It is a consequence to how the game works. The PCs are just that good. What's probably really bothering you is that concept of always succeeding. Without the risk of failure where's the joy in victory? The joy is in the effort and spending of resources (in this case skill points) to eventually reach that point of never fail and then enjoy the fruits of that labor. The party has conquered the challenge of swimming. They win this victory. You now know as DM a different challenge is needed. Swimming has become flavor text. It's parcel to the party gaining levels. Challenges eventually no longer are. New challenges take their place. Let them swim.

[Sagetim]

I mean, characters are supposed to be able to hit a point at which their competency exceeds many things that regular (lower level) people would find challenging.

That said, it's not out of the question to say that swimming that far with all your damn gear may be something you can swing by taking 10, but requires a fort save at the other end: success = fatigue, failure = exhaustion.

That's the price for stupidity: Fatigue and/or Exhaustion.

But the swim skill works fine, just remember to impose the penalty for weight. That should probably be enough of a challenge for things.

Now, they might have to rest a bit on the other side to get rid of the fatigue, or they might have to soldier on through, or spend other resources to get rid of the fatigue. That's a pretty fair penalty for being stupid about the main door.

[Crake]

I mean, they can; most characters shouldn't have any trouble going the full 150ft on one breath. You shouldn't, because you can't know for sure how long the cave will be or if there will be aquatic monsters, but you can.

(I mean, really, it's one minute of swimming underwater. I think most of us could do that in a pool)

This is the part that's supposed to build up tension. Sure, a player with 10 con and +0 swim can make the distance by taking 10 easily, but if you don't know how far you're swimming, which way you're supposed to be going, or if there are any monsters down there, then that can become a very scary prospect all of a sudden.

[KillianHawkeye]

Sure, a player with 10 con and +0 swim can make the distance by taking 10 easily, but if you don't know how far you're swimming, which way you're supposed to be going, or if there are any monsters down there, then that can become a very scary prospect all of a sudden.

Right. A reasonably in-shape person who knows how to swim can probably do a one minute swim under water in a pool or other safe place without issue. It's when the terrain is unknown and safety is out of easy reach, when the time/distance is uncertain and other dangers might be lurking anywhere, that suddenly you'd have to be crazy to attempt it without a backup plan or safety gear (or magic).

[Deophaun]

Y'know, if that was real, I might start watching Mission Impossible movies again. :smallamused:

I think you're joking, but ... James Bond does this sort of thing reasonably often.
That is a real thing in one of the MI movies I think it's Rogue Nation, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, the OP's concerns are moot, because if his players are like 90% of players out there, "Take 10" is not in their vocabulary.

[Yahzi]

Except you don't by default, get two move actions. You may use a standard action to do anything a move action can do, but that still uses your standard action to do so.
Ah, thanks. So a CON 10 person can swim underwater 75' instead of 150'. Which makes my skill challenge go from "auto success with skill 1" to "probably fail if CON 10," since you'd need to make a CON 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 check in a row.

On the other hand, that is more realistic. I wouldn't panic if I had to swim 75' underwater, but 150' would terrifying.


20+ swim checks in a row, when you're not being pursued, just doesn't sound exciting.
Agreed. Multiple skill checks are both boring and unlikely to produce a satisfying result (since eventually, you'll fail at even easy tasks).


You probably don't drown in calm water, no.
Eh.. people do, all the time. That's what "no skill" looks like.

In this case the party pretty much knows how far they are swimming, since it's through the tunnel they just walked through while it was dry.


What's probably really bothering you is that concept of always succeeding
Not really. Once I started thinking of Swim as a feat I was fine with it. You took this feat, you get this option. That's cool. If you didn't take the feat, you either get it through magic, risk a pointless random death, or find some other path.

It's the lack of granularity that bothered me. In general, D&D just doesn't model skills well. In the old days we just had Proficiencies; either you could do a thing, or you couldn't. Either you had an option, or you had to find another way.


I mean, characters are supposed to be able to hit a point at which their competency exceeds many things that regular (lower level) people would find challenging.
Well, this is level 1 of the dungeon. :smalltongue:

I do like the idea of staggered levels of success, though. If you succeed really well you get off-scot free; if you just do normally you get a status condition that lasts for a day or two. If you fail, you die, but failing is pretty hard to do at DC 5 when the next guy in line can help out.

In general I find HP damage to be boring. Status conditions are way more interesting.

[Nibbens]

Anyway, the OP's concerns are moot, because if his players are like 90% of players out there, "Take 10" is not in their vocabulary.

Oddly enough, this is truth. Players do love to roll their dice, even to the detriment of themselves. lol.