swarm question

[kaskavel]

The hellwasp swarm (MM p 238) has both "immune to weapon damage" and "damage reduction 10/magic". I have difficulty interpreting the combination of the two...If someone can help

[Venger]

If you cast some spell that deals damage susceptible to damage reduction, then it would apply.

[kaskavel]

What would apply?
The DR? No...it is a spell,"magic", so it bypasses a "DR 10/magic" by definition.
The "magic" part of the DR? No...it would have applied anyway, even if there was no DR
At what situation would a damage be reduced by 10?

[Tohsaka Rin]

What would apply?
The DR? No...it is a spell,"magic", so it bypasses a "DR 10/magic" by definition.
The "magic" part of the DR? No...it would have applied anyway, even if there was no DR
At what situation would a damage be reduced by 10?

The psionic power crystal shard deals piercing damage, and the power swarm of crystals deals slashing damage.

Neither of these are weapons, nor deal energy damage, so their damage would be reduced by 10.

I expect that other spells that have similar effects (blade barrier?) would be affected as well.

[Venger]

What would apply?
The DR? No...it is a spell,"magic", so it bypasses a "DR 10/magic" by definition.
The "magic" part of the DR? No...it would have applied anyway, even if there was no DR
At what situation would a damage be reduced by 10?

You are mistaken.

Some spells, such as ice gauntlet, specify that part or all of the spell's damage is susceptible to damage reduction as normal.

That spell specifically could not target a hellwasp swarm, since it's weaponlike, but one like it, such as a spell modified by the hellcat gauntlets.

[Jasdoif]

I would guess DR/magic is there primarily (or solely) because it's traditional for creatures whose non-weapon attacks bypass DR/magic to have DR/magic themselves.

[kaskavel]

The psionic power crystal shard deals piercing damage, and the power swarm of crystals deals slashing damage.

Neither of these are weapons, nor deal energy damage, so their damage would be reduced by 10.

I expect that other spells that have similar effects (blade barrier?) would be affected as well.

1.Those two powers "throw" things into the target. I see no difference to an arrow, one uses his mind, instead of a bow
2. Blade barrier? Well...Would blade barrier hit that swarm? Any possible answer (yes, no, yes because of the /10, yes but at minus 10) raises more questions as I see it

[kaskavel]

You are mistaken.

Some spells, such as ice gauntlet, specify that part or all of the spell's damage is susceptible to damage reduction as normal.

That spell specifically could not target a hellwasp swarm, since it's weaponlike, but one like it, such as a spell modified by the hellcat gauntlets.

I do not know those spells. If you could be more specific please...

[Venger]

1.Those two powers "throw" things into the target. I see no difference to an arrow, one uses his mind, instead of a bow
2. Blade barrier? Well...Would blade barrier hit that swarm? Any possible answer (yes, no, yes because of the /10, yes but at minus 10) raises more questions as I see it

It's not about you seeing a difference, it's about how the rules work. If a spell doesn't say "damage reduction applies normally" like ice gauntlet or whirling blade, then it does not.

2. Blade barrier is not a weapon, nor is it targeted, so it can kill swarms, and it doesn't say dr applies, so no, it does not.

Blade barrier can kill a hellwasp swarm and its dr does not apply

[kaskavel]

I would guess DR/magic is there primarily (or solely) because it's traditional for creatures whose non-weapon attacks bypass DR/magic to have DR/magic themselves.

Indeed, that may be an explanation, I am just trying to find some defensive advantage, particularly one involving the number 10...

[Venger]

Indeed, that may be an explanation, I am just trying to find some defensive advantage, particularly one involving the number 10...

Are you turning into a hellwasp swarm?

[kaskavel]

It's not about you seeing a difference, it's about how the rules work. If a spell doesn't say "damage reduction applies normally" like ice gauntlet or whirling blade, then it does not.

2. Blade barrier is not a weapon, nor is it targeted, so it can kill swarms, and it doesn't say dr applies, so no, it does not.

Blade barrier can kill a hellwasp swarm and its dr does not apply

1. The "difference" was a reference to a psionic power mentioned by another user, not to your argument
2. The answer you give to blade barrier (it can kill the swarm without 10point drop) is logical and I agree, but it means that the entry (DR 10/magic) is irrelevant. Nothing would have changed if the swarm didn't have the ability. I am trying to find a case that the "DR 10/magic" makes some sense. In fact I want
A. A case that some form of attack would deal damage rolled minus 10.
B. A case that some form of attack does not get reduced by 10, because of the "magic"
I still do not see any

[kaskavel]

It's not about you seeing a difference, it's about how the rules work. If a spell doesn't say "damage reduction applies normally" like ice gauntlet or whirling blade, then it does not.

2. Blade barrier is not a weapon, nor is it targeted, so it can kill swarms, and it doesn't say dr applies, so no, it does not.

Blade barrier can kill a hellwasp swarm and its dr does not apply

And the other guy who replied (Tohsaka Rin) interpreted it differently. That blade barrier creates "weapons", so DR applies (although I am not sure if he meant that it "un-applies" afterwards because of the "magic").

[Venger]

1. The "difference" was a reference to a psionic power mentioned by another user, not to your argument
2. The answer you give to blade barrier (it can kill the swarm without 10point drop) is logical and I agree, but it means that the entry (DR 10/magic) is irrelevant. Nothing would have changed if the swarm didn't have the ability. I am trying to find a case that the "DR 10/magic" makes some sense. In fact I want
A. A case that some form of attack would deal damage rolled minus 10.
B. A case that some form of attack does not get reduced by 10, because of the "magic"
I still do not see any

2) spells modified by the hellcat bracers would have that bonus damage reduced by 10, as I mentioned


And the other guy who replied (Tohsaka Rin) interpreted it differently. That blade barrier creates "weapons", so DR applies (although I am not sure if he meant that it "un-applies" afterwards because of the "magic").

He is wrong, so I corrected him. That's not a rule. If a spell says "damage reduction applies," then it applies. Otherwise it does not.

[kaskavel]

2) spells modified by the hellcat bracers would have that bonus damage reduced by 10, as I mentioned



He is wrong, so I corrected him. That's not a rule. If a spell says "damage reduction applies," then it applies. Otherwise it does not.

I am searching for:
A. A case that some form of attack would deal damage rolled minus 10.
B. A case that some form of attack does not get reduced by 10, because of the "magic"

I do not know what are the hellcat bracers. I guess it is something that answers my A question, probably in a very very extreme sitiation. I do not think the swarm DR exists in case some guy with...hellcat bracers attacks that swarm....And the B remains anyway

[Venger]

I am searching for:
A. A case that some form of attack would deal damage rolled minus 10.
B. A case that some form of attack does not get reduced by 10, because of the "magic"

I do not know what are the hellcat bracers. I guess it is something that answers my A question, probably in a very very extreme sitiation. I do not think the swarm DR exists in case some guy with...hellcat bracers attacks that swarm....And the B remains anyway

A) as I have said many times, a spell cast that is modified by the hellcat bracers, an item in the mic that adds slashing damage (susceptible as normal to dr) to spells a few times a day
B) literally any other spell that does not say "damage reduction applies as normal"

[kaskavel]

A) as I have said many times, a spell cast that is modified by the hellcat bracers, an item in the mic that adds slashing damage (susceptible as normal to dr) to spells a few times a day
B) literally any other spell that does not say "damage reduction applies as normal"

A. OK...I found that. Thank you. You imply two things here. 1. That damage from blade barrier and slashing damage to a spell by those gauntlets are different things. The first one makes normal damage because it is not a weapon, nor a spell that is suscesible to DR and the second one is suscesible to DR because...what? what is the difference? 2. And even if there is a difference and DR would apply in the second case but not the first, why wouldn't the "magic" of the "DR 10/magic" make the attack overpass the DR? After all, it is MAGIC damage, added by a MAGIC item to a MAGIC spell. 3. Even if the first 2 points are somehow proven true, this would still mean that there is some item in some book that is supposed to explain the DR 10...still meaning that the whole ability is practically useless
B. You mean spells like magic missile or chill touch for example? 1. That implies that those spells would not hurt a swarm with "DR 10/good" but they hurt a "DR/magic" when it is clear that spells like those are not suscecible to either DR or immunity to weapons. Makes no sense. 2. And what about that "DR applies as normal" you mention all the time? If a spell has that entry, then the DR applies normally, but then...comes the magic part and...un-applies it...Makes no sense again, who cares if DR applies to the spell? It will be canceled anyway

[Allanimal]

A. OK...I found that. Thank you. You imply two things here. 1. That damage from blade barrier and slashing damage to a spell by those gauntlets are different things. The first one makes normal damage because it is not a weapon, nor a spell that is suscesible to DR and the second one is suscesible to DR because...what? what is the difference? 2. And even if there is a difference and DR would apply in the second case but not the first, why wouldn't the "magic" of the "DR 10/magic" make the attack overpass the DR? After all, it is MAGIC damage, added by a MAGIC item to a MAGIC spell. 3. Even if the first 2 points are somehow proven true, this would still mean that there is some item in some book that is supposed to explain the DR 10...still meaning that the whole ability is practically useless
B. You mean spells like magic missile or chill touch for example? 1. That implies that those spells would not hurt a swarm with "DR 10/good" but they hurt a "DR/magic" when it is clear that spells like those are not suscecible to either DR or immunity to weapons. Makes no sense. 2. And what about that "DR applies as normal" you mention all the time? If a spell has that entry, then the DR applies normally, but then...comes the magic part and...un-applies it...Makes no sense again, who cares if DR applies to the spell? It will be canceled anyway

DR/magic doesn't mean any old magic. It means at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on a weapon.


Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Most spells that say they have a damage component susceptible to DR do not say they grant a +1 or more magic enhancement bonus as well, so they are not bypassing the DR.

[kaskavel]

DR/magic doesn't mean any old magic. It means at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on a weapon.



Most spells that say they have a damage component susceptible to DR do not say they grant a +1 or more magic enhancement bonus as well, so they are not bypassing the DR.

OK, but accepting that means that
1. creature is immune to weapons
2. creature has DR 10, unless....the weapon is magic
And still it makes no sense....

[Allanimal]

OK, but accepting that means that
1. creature is immune to weapons
2. creature has DR 10, unless....the weapon is magic
And still it makes no sense....

Yes, add it to the list of weird rules in D&D 3.5.
In effect, it means DR applies to non-weapons, like certain spells that explicitly don't bypass DR.

[zlefin]

they're not always super careful; the most likely reason is that it was simpyl given dr/magic cuz it's an evil outsider of a decent power level; most/all such creatures get a dr.
it's also relevant for attacking other creatures with dr.

it'd also be relevant if facing something with a swarmbane clasp (or some 3.5 equivalent item)
and there's probably a few odd specialty pieces of equipment designed ot fight swarms that are mundane. I seem to recall such existing; not sure where they are though (like some kind of giant flyswatter or something)

[ShurikVch]

OK, but accepting that means that
1. creature is immune to weapons
2. creature has DR 10, unless....the weapon is magic
And still it makes no sense....Note:
Blunderbuss and Sand Blaster;
Field Gun and Organ Gun;
Dynamite and Fragmentation Grenade;
Area Attack feat;
Lightning Throw maneuver (presuming non-magical weapon) - - are all examples of non-magical non-energy area attacks.
Thus, they would damage the Hellwasp Swarm, but also will be affected by DR/magic