Hypothetically, Action Surge vs Rage vs Ki

[Lalliman]

This is a thought experiment to see how class features relate in a vacuum.

Suppose you had a perfectly generic martial character, i.e. you get Extra Attacks at 5th and 11th level but no other class features (aside from ASIs). You then get to choose one of three features. Which one would you choose and why?

Scenario 1
The fighter's Action Surge: Once per short rest at 2nd level, and twice per short rest at 17th.
VS
The barbarian's Rage: Scales with level in all the normal ways, but excludes improvements from archetypes. For the sake of this scenario, it works while wearing heavy armour, and the damage bonus also applies to Dex-based melee attacks.
VS
The monk's Martial Arts + Ki: Scales with level in all the normal ways, but excludes improvements from archetypes. For the sake of this scenario, it works while wearing armour. (Edit: By "Ki" I mean you get the monk's Ki reserves and access to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind and, at 5th level, Stunning Strike.)

When you've answered which one you'd want, here's a follow-up question: What kind of improvement do you think would make the other two equally worthwhile? For example, if you chose Rage as the best one, how many additional uses of Action Surge would you need to consider taking that one instead?

Then lastly, here's the same set of questions in a different scenario.

Scenario 2
The fighter's Action Surge: As before.
VS
The barbarian's Rage: As before, but you also get the improvements from one of the archetypes (berserker, bear, wolf or eagle). Only the ones that apply to your Rage, mind you.
VS
The monk's Martial Arts + Ki: As before, but you also gain the improvements from either Way of the Open Palm or Way of Shadow. Again, only the ones that apply to your Ki usage.

I'm very curious about the responses.

[Lolzyking]

Ki vs action surge and rage isn't fair

Ki is fuel

You have to compare ki with all the consumable bonuses of fighter


Tldr monks don't get enough ki

Ek gives spellslots BM gives sup die

4e gives no extra ki despite being the "ek" subclass

[Dimers]

Scenario 1: very very Ki. Lots of extra actions with a wide range of possibilities -- mobility, defense, offense, stunning, arrow-turning. I like Rage's damage resistance but that's not enough to make up for that huge variety, especially not with the daily limit and the fact that it may end early. Action Surge isn't even in the running. It's completely eclipsed by the extra actions of Ki.

Scenario 2: Rage is a stronger choice than in Scenario 1, especially at higher levels, but Ki still holds my heart.


When you've answered which one you'd want, here's a follow-up question: What kind of improvement do you think would make the other two equally worthwhile? For example, if you chose Rage as the best one, how many additional uses of Action Surge would you need to consider taking that one instead?

You could double the Action Surge in Scenario 1 and I still wouldn't choose it -- maybe triple, but frankly, I'm much more likely to choose the interesting one over the powerful bland one. Triple definitely isn't enough for Scenario 2. It may be a fair comparison but it's so flavorless.

[Strill]

Rage is the best. It provides both offense and extremely powerful defense.

To pick Action Surge, You'd need to throw in a Fighting Style at least. I dunno. Two Action Surges is prolly too much, but one action surge is nowhere near enough.

Monk damage is below that of other martials for the entire game, so I really don't care much about Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows since they're not a net benefit. You're better off going Greatsword + Greatweapon Master. Patient Defense, however, is good enough for me to say it's on-par with Rage defensively. The fact that it costs a bonus action, greatly reducing my damage, however, makes me less interested. Remove the Bonus-action requirement for Patient Defense, and I'd take Martial Arts + Ki.

Scenario 2:

Rage, with Wolf Totem every time. Wolf Totem is just ludicrously powerful if you have any melee allies. People seriously underrate what an enormous boost it gives to your party's damage.

[Lalliman]

Ki vs action surge and rage isn't fair
Ki is fuel
You have to compare ki with all the consumable bonuses of fighter
Rage and Action Surge have limited uses too, so I really don't know why you consider them different.

And just in case there's any misunderstanding, when I say you get Ki, I mean you get access to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind and Stunning Strike, at their respective levels. This is the core mechanic of the monk, more comparable to Rage and Action Surge than to Martial Superiority, even though it has more mechanical resemblance to the latter.

[Lolzyking]

Monk suffers because their core mechanic is expected to go 100% into their subclass ability usage for them to have comparable use to fighters subclass abilities

[Strill]

Rage and Action Surge have limited uses too, so I really don't know why you consider them different.

And just in case there's any misunderstanding, when I say you get Ki, I mean you get access to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind and Stunning Strike, at their respective levels. This is the core mechanic of the monk, more comparable to Rage and Action Surge than to Martial Superiority, even though it has more mechanical resemblance to the latter.

Oh, it includes Stunning Strike too? Well in that case then Ki is the best by far. Even if you threw out all the other abilities, it would still be the best by a wide margin. Stunning Strike is stupid overpowered. It's about on-par with a 2nd-level spell, but costs no actions, is usable multiple times per turn, and costs 1/3rd of the ki points that an actual 2nd-level spell would. It has powerful offensive and defensive effects, hard-counters bosses' legendary saves, and makes every other use of ki obsolete.

The only thing that makes Stunning Strike balanced is the monk's low damage, low AC, low health, and lack of any other really stand-out exceptional abilities apart from Patient Defense. If you take away all those drawbacks, and give the monk a 3rd attack at level 11, there's no question Stunning Strike becomes king.

To match Stunning Strike, you'd need at least two, if not three uses of Action Surge per short rest, and you'd need to accelerate Rage's progression by about 7 levels.


Monk suffers because their core mechanic is expected to go 100% into their subclass ability usage for them to have comparable use to fighters subclass abilities

No, the Monk is expected to spend all their ki on Stunning Strike.

[qube]

I always considered reckless attack to be the 5E barbarian's shtick - because the defining feature of rage, taking half damage, offsets the fact everyone has advantage on you.


Rage and Action Surge have limited uses too, so I really don't know why you consider them different.Ki powers both the ability to attack more, and the ability to have better defense; and at high level, get resist all except force.

Power aside, action surge /rage is the equivalent of Flurry of Blows / Empty Body; while ki is the equivalent of 2/short rest ; 3/long rest.

----
@OP, In the end - you're moving too much into the hypothetical;

With D&D 5E IIRC being designed towards an average of 3 rounds per combat, 8 combats per long rest and 3 short rests per long rest

reckless+rage gives you advantage & damage boost. (assuming a 1:2 attacks hit and 2d6+4 (11) base damage = 5.5 avr dpa) --> 3:4 hit and 2d6+6 (13) --> 9.75 avr dpa) --> 4.25 damage per attack
assuming you gauge fights well, and only uses it during longer fights
Total boost = 4.25 * {attacks per round} * {4 rnds / fight} * {rages/long rest}
action point gives you an additional attack (but you also get a fighting style; lets say that ends up for 2 extra damage) (1:2 hit chance for 2d6+6 (13) --> 6.5 damage per attack)
Total boost = 6.5 * {attack per round} * {1+3 as it recharges every short rest} * {amount of ap}
Ki (presuming you only flurry) gives you a bonus off hand attack; so that's an extra 1:2 hit chance for 1d4+4 (6.5)
Total boost = 3.25 * {ki points} * {1+3 as it recharges every short rest}
(considering an alternative use for ki, like stun fist, would about as effective as flurry, I'll keep adding damage, while technically it caps at about 6 flurries, for 6 combat rounds before a short rest)


so, a quick estimate leads to:



lvl

attacks

rages

ki

ap

TB(r&r)

TB(ap)

TB(ki)



1

1

2

-

-

34

-

-



2

1

2

2

1

34

26

26



3

1

3

3

1

51

26

39



4

1

3

4

1

51

26

52



5

2

3

5

1

102

52

65



6

2

4

6

1

136

52

78



7

2

4

7

1

136

52

91*



8

2

4

8

1

136

52

104*



9

2

4

9

1

136

52

117*



10

2

4

10

1

136

52

130*



11

3

4

11

1

136

78

143*



12

3

5

12

1

170

78

156*



13

3

5

13

1

170

78

167*



14

3

5

14

1

170

78

182*



15

3

5

15

1

170

78

195*



16

3

5

16

1

170

78

208*



17

3

6

17

2

204

156

221*



18

3

6

18

2

204

156

234*



19

3

6

19

2

204

156

247*



20

3

~

20

2

272

156

260*




obvioulsy the numbers will be off, because

the rage bonus / str bonus / monk damage die didn't scale
I included reckless for barbarian, while not for other classes



I'd rank ki and rage+reckless about equal. For AP, I'd give an additional one at level 7 or so.

(I didn't have time to crunch the propper numbers, if anyone feels the need to complain the numbers are off, I would suggest instead presenting more accurate ones)