Druid damage cantrip

[Doomwhispo]

Hello guys from the playground,imdan looking for,.some advice.
I have to choose 2 cantrips out of theese 3
Poison spray (d12 but cant crit)
produce flame (d8)
And thorn whip (d6 and move the target)

Whic 2 would you take and why?
Or is there some other damage cantrip im missing? I have 2 utility cantrips and want 2 for damage

[JNAProductions]

Thorn Whip (SO MUCH FUN) and Produce Flame (a solid, respectable ranged option).

Poison Spray ain't very good.

[Citan]

Thorn Whip (SO MUCH FUN) and Produce Flame (a solid, respectable ranged option).

Poison Spray ain't very good.
This, no regrets, no question asked.
Poison Spray is not THAT bad, but the others are just so much better.

Produce Flame is a dual-cantrip (or even more with DM leeway): you can either use it as an utility cantrip, to produce light, or use it as a decent ranged attack when other options are not feeling right at the moment. If your DM agrees to it (honestly no idea about RAW), you could also use it to light a torch at up to 30 feet away, use it as a source for Control Flames / Pyrotechnics, or just lighting up a molotov that you will throw just after... :)

Thorns Whip is a dual-cantrip too (or even more with DM leeway): it is a melee attack, so you have something WIS-based you can use against any close-by enemy. It is also a control cantrip, which you can use to force some tactical positioning (freeing an ally from a dangerous OA, bringing an enemy into a trap/environment hazard, pulling him next to your Paladin/Rogue which has very powerful OA). With DM houserule (no question here ^^), you could also use it as a plain whip to catch objects, as a grappling hook of sorts, and possibly other fun things I never even thought of...

In short: even by RAW these are in my personal top 5 cantrips of all the cantrips a Druid can learn (don't ask: others are Guidance, Mold Earth, and I don't actually have the fifth set in stone, it depends on character goals).
If you ask your DM beforehand, (s)he may make them dimensions better by allowing the kind of interactions I suggest. :)

[Doomwhispo]

This, no regrets, no question asked.
Poison Spray is not THAT bad, but the others are just so much better.

Produce Flame is a dual-cantrip (or even more with DM leeway): you can either use it as an utility cantrip, to produce light, or use it as a decent ranged attack when other options are not feeling right at the moment. If your DM agrees to it (honestly no idea about RAW), you could also use it to light a torch at up to 30 feet away, use it as a source for Control Flames / Pyrotechnics, or just lighting up a molotov that you will throw just after... :)

Thorns Whip is a dual-cantrip too (or even more with DM leeway): it is a melee attack, so you have something WIS-based you can use against any close-by enemy. It is also a control cantrip, which you can use to force some tactical positioning (freeing an ally from a dangerous OA, bringing an enemy into a trap/environment hazard, pulling him next to your Paladin/Rogue which has very powerful OA). With DM houserule (no question here ^^), you could also use it as a plain whip to catch objects, as a grappling hook of sorts, and possibly other fun things I never even thought of...

In short: even by RAW these are in my personal top 5 cantrips of all the cantrips a Druid can learn (don't ask: others are Guidance, Mold Earth, and I don't actually have the fifth set in stone, it depends on character goals).
If you ask your DM beforehand, (s)he may make them dimensions better by allowing the kind of interactions I suggest. :)

Ah you managed to convince me. Its just that 1d12 sounds like alot compared to a d8

[Citan]

Ah you managed to convince me. Its just that 1d12 sounds like alot compared to a d8
Well, I did put out my preferences with no information on your character.

So, for example, if you feel you won't ever have a use for the "lighting" part of Produce Flame (because your DM is RAW strict, and all the party has darkvision anyways), and you intend to be on the frontline, Poison Spray may be a decent choice.

In fact, the problem of Poison Spray is that it kinda stacks the potential drawbacks: short range (Druid usually don't have that great of an AC so prefer enemies far away rather than close-by XD), targets Constitution (which many enemies have at least a decent bonus to saves), deals poison damage (I'll let others correct me if I'm mistaken, but some of the most common enemies you can fight, namely most undead, are immune to it).

So, the occurences in which it really shines are not that often. ^^
IF your DM allows Elemental Evil companion (which is a free supplement), and you are not interested in Produce Flame for above-mentioned reasons, you could consider Frostbite (also targets CON, but 60 feet range and useful rider) or Create Bonfire (with a caveat: ask your DM if he/she would agree that you can use it also as an instant spell, like Sacred Flame. Otherwise, it will become useless once you get high enough to always have your concentration occupied with leveld spells).

[Butler2102]

Ah you managed to convince me. Its just that 1d12 sounds like alot compared to a d8

Keep in mind the averages of a damage die, not the max. A d8's average is 4.5, and a d12's average is 6.5. It's only 2 higher, but it calls for a Con Save (baddies usually are best at this) and does poison damage (the most resisted/immune damage type). Poison Spray looks good if you don't know too much about what's out there. The other two are much better picks in my opinion.

P.S. welcome to team Druid :)

[Doomwhispo]

Well, I did put out my preferences with no information on your character.

So, for example, if you feel you won't ever have a use for the "lighting" part of Produce Flame (because your DM is RAW strict, and all the party has darkvision anyways), and you intend to be on the frontline, Poison Spray may be a decent choice.

In fact, the problem of Poison Spray is that it kinda stacks the potential drawbacks: short range (Druid usually don't have that great of an AC so prefer enemies far away rather than close-by XD), targets Constitution (which many enemies have at least a decent bonus to saves), deals poison damage (I'll let others correct me if I'm mistaken, but some of the most common enemies you can fight, namely most undead, are immune to it).

So, the occurences in which it really shines are not that often. ^^
IF your DM allows Elemental Evil companion (which is a free supplement), and you are not interested in Produce Flame for above-mentioned reasons, you could consider Frostbite (also targets CON, but 60 feet range and useful rider) or Create Bonfire (with a caveat: ask your DM if he/she would agree that you can use it also as an instant spell, like Sacred Flame. Otherwise, it will become useless once you get high enough to always have your concentration occupied with leveld spells).

Im gona play a tabaxi, land druid, i wont be on the front lines but i have good mobility thanks to the tabaxi trait. start at lvl 6, ill have 4 cantrips
Druidcraft
Guidance
Thornwhip
And produce flame or poison spray?

I think ill fallow your advice on produce flame What do you think of druidcraft? I dont know if ill use it much but it seems really nice flavour wise? Or is it just wasted?

[hymer]

What do you think of druidcraft? I dont know if ill use it much but it seems really nice flavour wise? Or is it just wasted?

It depends on how you use it. Make a habit of using it every day to foretell the weather. This may induce your DM to include weather, which may mean eventual storms, which will go well with Call Lightning.
The most flexibility to be had is from the 'natural sound' you can make. Team up with someone who likes to mislead or influence people, like a bard, rogue, enchanter or illusionist, and work out some zany schemes. Even without that, the sound of a rattlesnake can be unnerving, the sound of a babbling brook peaceful, a bear snarling intimidating, and so on.

[Doomwhispo]

It depends on how you use it. Make a habit of using it every day to foretell the weather. This may induce your DM to include weather, which may mean eventual storms, which will go well with Call Lightning.

We are in the underdark so far, eventually we might go to.the surface but it is unsure for now

[Chugger]

If yer going to rely on cantrips for damage it is nice to have at least one that is roll to hit no ST and one that is ST based, because when you fight something that is very high AC, sometimes the chance to damage is better with it rolling a save. Magic Init feat opens up more choice to cantrips, too, if you need it.

[Protato]

I say Produce Flame. Decent damage, utility, and overall it just seems like a strong pick.

[Beelzebubba]

IMO you really don't need to agonize over your cantrips so much. Agonize over the character you want to build.

The game has very few trap options now, and the Druid is the most flexible character in the game.

Any combo of two of those three will be plenty of fun, and you'll find opportunities to shine with both choices.

[RacingBreca]

I'm shocked there is no Shillelagh talk. I thought it was a staple Druid cantrip. Can someone tell me why it's not being concidered?

[Chugger]

I'm shocked there is no Shillelagh talk. I thought it was a staple Druid cantrip. Can someone tell me why it's not being concidered?

Good point. Maybe the OP's druid has low ac and low hp and is staying out of melee?

OP, Shillelagh is well worth considering. It will hit as often as a cantrip but do more damage - it lets you use your Wis mod on the to hit roll and as a mod to damage (which becomes 1d8 + wis).

[MeeposFire]

I'm shocked there is no Shillelagh talk. I thought it was a staple Druid cantrip. Can someone tell me why it's not being concidered?

Honestly that spell does get a bit of talk but almost never for an actual druid (or at least somebody who is primarilly a druid).

The reason is that it is OK at levels 1-4 but at level 5 all the attack cantrips get a second die and that is worth around as much as the wisdom mod. While other cantrips get some nice bonuses (range, more damage as you level, other benefits) shillelagh gets nothing as you level as a druid and unlike the cleric and other classes druids gain no benefits for melee combat intrinsically with weapons (such as divine strike or extra attack). Essentially that makes it least effective for a druid which is sad.

[nickl_2000]

It would be interesting with the new tortle race to make a melee druid with shilleleigh

[RacingBreca]

The reason is that it is OK at levels 1-4 but at level 5 all the attack cantrips get a second die and that is worth around as much as the wisdom mod. While other cantrips get some nice bonuses (range, more damage as you level, other benefits) shillelagh gets nothing as you level as a druid and unlike the cleric and other classes druids gain no benefits for melee combat intrinsically with weapons (such as divine strike or extra attack).

Great reply. Thanks!

Does the math change if you are multi classing Monk/ Druid and get extra attack? The application would be after the wild-shapes expire. Requiring concentration means that it is coming at a cost of other spells. What lvl 1-2 Druid spells are better than the difference between 1d6+2 and 1d8+4?

[sithlordnergal]

I'd go Produce Flame and Thorn Whip over Poison Spray. I have a Yuan-Ti with Poison Spray automatically, and I can tell you exactly how many times it has succeeded: Zero. Poison Spray may have great damage, but the Con save ruins it. That said, I'm surprised Shillelagh isn't on the table for you. It's one of your better melee cantrip options since it basically gives you a magic weapon that uses your casting stat for damage and attack rolls.

[Tetrasodium]

Im gona play a tabaxi, land druid, i wont be on the front lines but i have good mobility thanks to the tabaxi trait. start at lvl 6, ill have 4 cantrips
Druidcraft
Guidance
Thornwhip
And produce flame or poison spray?

I think ill fallow your advice on produce flame What do you think of druidcraft? I dont know if ill use it much but it seems really nice flavour wise? Or is it just wasted?

druidcraft is pretty bad, but if most of the group has darkvision you can do some fun stuff by sniffing torches. Predicting weather will ptrtty much never be important (let alone useful)

[Nifft]

We are in the underdark so far, eventually we might go to.the surface but it is unsure for now

Underdark Weather Channel: "Overcast, with a chance of spiders."

[Beelzebubba]

Predicting weather will ptrtty much never be important (let alone useful)

Your campaign must have nonexistent role play. It's been a fun way to bond with strangers and to get the DM to start using weather more.

It's sad how 'combat mechanics only' this board is. Druidcraft is incredibly fun and gets me all kinds of bonuses in social situations.

[VisionsOfGlory]

Produce Flame and Thorn Whip are better, not to say Poison Spray doesn't have it's uses.

Produce Flame is Utility and okay damage, but keeping in mind these days all the party has Dark Vision or someone is going to have Light.

Thorn Whip is a melee attack, and will allow you to push an enemy which can give you an escape if you need one.

Poison Spray does have the highest damage, but it is a CON save.

Although looking at the RP aspect, if you're a Druid from some poisoness jungle Posion Spray would be a fantastic choice for you. But if not, I'd choose Produce Flame and Thorn Whip.

[Doomwhispo]

My final list of cantrips will be

Druidcraft
Guidance
Thornwhip
produce flame

Ill take poison spray when i hit lvl 10.
Love you guys and thanks for all the different opinions and points of view really help me made a choice i wont regret!

[Citan]

Honestly that spell does get a bit of talk but almost never for an actual druid (or at least somebody who is primarilly a druid).

The reason is that it is OK at levels 1-4 but at level 5 all the attack cantrips get a second die and that is worth around as much as the wisdom mod. While other cantrips get some nice bonuses (range, more damage as you level, other benefits) shillelagh gets nothing as you level as a druid and unlike the cleric and other classes druids gain no benefits for melee combat intrinsically with weapons (such as divine strike or extra attack). Essentially that makes it least effective for a druid which is sad.
This essentially. Shillelagh's true worth comes forth either on a character with no other melee cantrip available (Druid has Thorns Whip) or a character with many weapon attacks (Druid has none, can get only 2 with either multiclassing in Monk or Polearm master feat).

Since OP is making a "plain Druid", Thorns Whip is the best option on the long run (if only OP had Booming Blade available, then Shillelagh may have been considered as a facilitator).


My final list of cantrips will be

Druidcraft
Guidance
Thornwhip
produce flame

Ill take poison spray when i hit lvl 10.
Love you guys and thanks for all the different opinions and points of view really help me made a choice i wont regret!
I'm sure you'll enjoy them all very much. Have fun! ;)

[Strangways]

Poison Spray has its drawbacks, as others have noted, but it's not a terrible cantrip. It does d12 damage instead of d8, which isn't a lot more, but it's still more. It's also a saving throw rather than an attack roll. Sometimes, when you're trying to hit that super-armored or super-dextrous opponent with a 24 AC, you appreciate having an alternative to having to make an attack roll.

[hymer]

It's also a saving throw rather than an attack roll. Sometimes, when you're trying to hit that super-armored or super-dextrous opponent with a 24 AC, you appreciate having an alternative to having to make an attack roll.

It's a good point to have the ability to target various defences. Though a Con save is perhaps the least attractive option, aside from the about one quarter of MM monsters that are outright immune to poison. Even ancient gold dragons don't have AC 24. They do, however, have +16 con saves. Even if they had AC 24, you'd still have much better chances of hitting with a spell attack roll than landing a Con save effect.
Anyway, if you're fighting anything with an AC of 24, you really should be using your spell slots, not your cantrips. You even have abilities that don't allow saving throws if used in particular ways, such as Heat Metal and Wall of Fire.

[MeeposFire]

Great reply. Thanks!

Does the math change if you are multi classing Monk/ Druid and get extra attack? The application would be after the wild-shapes expire. Requiring concentration means that it is coming at a cost of other spells. What lvl 1-2 Druid spells are better than the difference between 1d6+2 and 1d8+4?

Shillelagh is not a concentration spell. As for multicassing yes that can make a difference. While I would not say to multiclass just to make that spell better but if you did multiclass and got abilities that boosted your number of attacks or makes your attacks more effective that all makes that spell more effective. IF you have extra attack already and a wisdom that is much higher than your dex or str then yes that spell becomes a good choice. For your standard druid it really is not sadly.

[Strangways]

It's a good point to have the ability to target various defences. Though a Con save is perhaps the least attractive option, aside from the about one quarter of MM monsters that are outright immune to poison. Even ancient gold dragons don't have AC 24. They do, however, have +16 con saves. Even if they had AC 24, you'd still have much better chances of hitting with a spell attack roll than landing a Con save effect.
Anyway, if you're fighting anything with an AC of 24, you really should be using your spell slots, not your cantrips. You even have abilities that don't allow saving throws if used in particular ways, such as Heat Metal and Wall of Fire.

Yep, targeting a dragon with a CON save attack is pretty much hopeless. One should target an opponent's weak saves, to the extent that one can do so without the DM accusing you of blatant metagaming. In that regard, I've never had a DM object to my assuming that a heavily armored humanoid, for example, is likely not going to have the dexterity to avoid a fireball. That's just common sense. Unfortunately, a druid's damaging cantrip options that target saving throws are quite limited.