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Stam
2007-08-13, 12:46 PM
I'm busy putting together a cat-burgler concept...and, obviously, will want to be able to hide at a moment's notice and not have to use a light while searching the bedroom for the safe. :)

I know that the Shadowdancer can fill both of these rolls, but the feats required to get into that PrC are ridiculous on a Rogue-build.

Soo...starting at 9th-level, with roughly 27k to spend...and using the following books:

SRD (no variants), Complete Arcane/Adventurer/Divine/Warrior, Sandstorm, Cityscape, Frostburn, and any FR-specific source (Dragon Mag and Wizards articles included) in 3.0 or 3.5.

Mad Wizard
2007-08-13, 12:51 PM
Well, Goggles of Night (DMG 258) will give you darkvision if you are willing to spend the 12k on it.

Drider
2007-08-13, 12:56 PM
the "dark" template gives hide in plainsight, and you can just add to a race the has darkvision

ravenkith
2007-08-13, 01:35 PM
Warlock will enable you to pick up the Devil's Sight and Darkness invocations.

Darkness gives you concealment, which is, effectively, hide in plain sight. Devil's sight lets you see perfectly through darkness, magical or other wise.

Plus it also gets you a 20% miss chance even if they DO somehow spot you.

Telflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) basically gives you the same combo, but you need either a dimension door-like spell, the darkwalker template (+1, UE) or shade template(+4, PGTF) to get into it...

nerulean
2007-08-13, 02:35 PM
This (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) post of huge listyness tells me:

Darkvision
Dwarf, 60'
Half-Orc, Orc, 60'
Barbarian 5, class variant, Complete Champion, limited use, see text
Paladin 5, class variant, complete Champion, see text
Hellbred (spirit aspect), race, Fiendish Codex II, 30'+
Shadowdancer 2, ecl 9, range = normal vision
Devil's Sight, least warlock invocation, Complete Arcane, 30' also works in magical darkness
Acolyte of the Skin 1, ecl 6, 60' (120' at 5th level)
Elemental Savant 6, ecl 11, Complete Arcane, 60'
Greenstar Adept 4, ecl 9, Complete Arcane, 60'
Pale Master 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis, 60 feet
Divine Crusader 7, ecl 14, Complete Divine, 60'
Nightcloak 2, ecl 7, Complete Divine Web Enhancement, 60', can also see through magical darkness 10'
Elemental Savant 6, ecl 11, Complete Arcane, 60'
Sun Soul Monk 8, ecl 13, City of Splendors: Waterdeep (FR), 60'
Green Star Adept 4, ecl 9, Complete Arcane
Dungeon Delver 1, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer, 60' or adds 30'
Dark Hunter 2, ecl 7, Complete Warrior, 30 feet or adds 30 feet, plus an extra 30' at level 4
Darkwood Stalker 4, ecl 9, Complete Warrior, 30 feet, 60' at level 7
Deepvision, feat, Complete Psionic, +30' while psionically focused
Disciple of the Eye 3, ecl 8, Races of the Dragon, 120 feet
Dawncaller 1, ecl 7, Races of Stone, 60 feet
Dragon Devotee 5, ecl 10, Races of the Dragon, 60 feet
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 3, ecl 18, Eberron Campaign Setting, 30' (60' at level 6)
Eldeen Ranger 3 (Gatekeepers), ecl 8, Eberron Campaign Setting, 60 feet or +30'
Darkrunner 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10, ecl 6, Lords of Madness, +10' each time
Fleshwarper 10, ecl 17, Lords of Madness, 60'
Inhuman Vision, aberrant feat, Lords of Madness, +5' per abberant feat
Darksight Eyes, Illithid Graft, Lords of Madness, 60'
Dracolyte 7, ecl 12, Draconomicon, 60'
Hoardstealer 1, 5, 9/10, ecl 6, Draconomicon, +30' each
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 3, ecl 8, Draconomicon, 60'
Talon of Tiamat 8, ecl 12, Draconomicon, 60'
Telflammar Shadowlord 1, ecl ???, FR: Unapproachable East - can also see through magical darkness
Monk 3 (Dark Moon Disciple substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement
Incarnate 1 (Tiefling substitution level), Magic of Incarnum - also works in magical darkness, see text
Basilist Mask, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 30'/essentia
Truthseeker Goggles, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 60'
Night Mask Deathbringer 7, ecl 12, FR: Champions of Ruin, 60'
Shade Hunter 5, ecl 10, FR: Champions of Ruin, +60'
Horizon Walker 1, ecl 6 - 60' or 120'
Amon, vestige, ecl 1, Tome of Magic
Geryon, vestige, ecl 10, Tome of Magic - range = normal vision, can see through even magical darkness
Tenebrous, vestige, ecl 7, Tome of Magic - range = normal vision, can see through even magical darkness
Shadowcaster 3, Tome of Magic - 30' (60' at level 11)
Shadowblade 7, ecl 12, Tome of Magic - range = normal vision, can see through even magical darkness
Planar Touchstone (The Unseen Path), feat, Planar Handbook - range not specified
Planar Touchstone (The Blinding Tower), feat, Planar Handbook - 60' or +30'
Shadow Creature, +2 LA template, Lords of Madness - 60'
Dragonfire Mask, soulmeld, Dragon Magic - 60' or +30'
Deep Vision, psionic feat, Races of Stone - +30'
Fiendish Skin, fiendish graft, Fiend Folio - 60'
Dragonfire Mask, soulmeld, Dragon Magic - 60' or +30'
Draconic Senses, draconic feat, 60' only if you have 3 or more draconic feats
Eyes of the Abyss, abyssal heritor feat, Fiendish Codex I - 30' plus bonus to search and spot
Drow Eyes, feat, Races of Faerun, 120', half-drow elf only
Shadow Hunter 4, ecl 8, Eberron: Dragonmarked, 60' works in magical darkness, see text
Sunlight Eyes, reserve feat, Complete Mage, works in magical darkness, limited duration, see text
Light and Darkness, mantle, Complete Psionic, 60' or +30', see text
Winterhaunt of Iborighu 10, ecl 15, Frostburn, 60', become an evil elemental
Devil's Sight, feat, Fiendish Codex II, 60' or +60', can also gain blindsight
Cavelord 2, ecl 6, FR: Underdark, 120'
Vassal of Bahamut 1, ecl 8, Book of Exalted Deeds, 120'

Hide in Plain Sight (or similar) (also see the "camouflage" section)

Ranger 17 - natural terrain
Scout 14 - natural terrain
Illusionist 15 (class variant), Unearthed Arcana - unconditional
Assassin 8, ecl 13 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Shadowdancer 1, ecl 8 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Nightsong Infiltrator 10, ecl 17 - natural terrain
Dark Lantern 9, ecl 14, Eberron: Five Nations - does not require natural terrain or concealment, in fact seems totally unconditional
Scar Enforcer 7, ecl 12, Races of Destiny - natural terrain
Wildrunner 5, ecl 10, Races of the Wild - natural terrain
Stalker of Kharesh 4, ecl 9, Book of Exalted Deeds, w/quarter cover or quarter concealment
Wilderness Rogue (UA)
Umbral Disciple 3, ecl 8, Magic of Incarnum
Luiren Marchwarden 5, ECL 10, FR: Shining South - doesn't require cover or concealment, but only works in specific region
Shadar-Kai, race, Fiend Folio, ecl 4
Dark creature, template, Tome of Magic - doesn't require cover or concealment or terrain, but doesn't work in bright light
Shadow Creature, template, Lords of Madness - in shadowy regions only
Lurking Terror 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis - requires cover or concealment
Paladin 6 (Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement - near shadows
Justice of Weald and Woe 9, ecl 15, FR: Champions of Ruin - natural terrain
Planar Touchstone (The Veil), feat, Planar Handbook - near shadow
Hellbreaker 1, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, in any kind of darkness, not called "hide in plain sight"
Shadowspy 9, ecl 13, Complete Champion, in area of sunlight
Sentinel of Bharrai 5, ecl 10, Book of Exalted Deeds, within 10' of natural terrain

Stam
2007-08-13, 03:03 PM
...whoa. That's immense.

But...that's class builds only. Not magical items or stuff...

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 03:45 AM
Kind of obvious, but Thief Acrobat from Complete Adventurer is quite "Cat Burglar"-y.

deadseashoals
2007-08-14, 04:37 AM
Warlock will enable you to pick up the Devil's Sight and Darkness invocations.

Darkness gives you concealment, which is, effectively, hide in plain sight. Devil's sight lets you see perfectly through darkness, magical or other wise.

Plus it also gets you a 20% miss chance even if they DO somehow spot you.

Telflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) basically gives you the same combo, but you need either a dimension door-like spell, the darkwalker template (+1, UE) or shade template(+4, PGTF) to get into it...

How is concealment effectively hide in plain sight?

Kurald Galain
2007-08-14, 08:59 AM
How is concealment effectively hide in plain sight?

I suspect it's not. People will notice that large patch of blackness in the middle of the room, and get suspicious.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-14, 11:24 AM
The FR-Adventure book, "Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave" contains the Dark template listed above. LA+1 for cold resist, Hide +8, Move Silently +5, Hide in Plain Sight, +10 to all modes of movement, Darkvision, and I think something else I'm forgetting.

brian c
2007-08-14, 11:36 AM
The FR-Adventure book, "Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave" contains the Dark template listed above. LA+1 for cold resist, Hide +8, Move Silently +5, Hide in Plain Sight, +10 to all modes of movement, Darkvision, and I think something else I'm forgetting.

The Dark template listed above is from Tome of Magic. It gives everything you mentioned except it's +6 to MS, not +5. It also gives superior low-light vision and the extraplanar subtype (unless you're in the Plane of Shadow).

Since that gives you HiPs (most of the time) and Darkvision, that's probably the best way to get those things with templates/races/classes. As for items, I've never heard of an item that gives HiPs, but I could be wrong.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-14, 11:43 AM
The Dark template listed above is from Tome of Magic. It gives everything you mentioned except it's +6 to MS, not +5. It also gives superior low-light vision and the extraplanar subtype (unless you're in the Plane of Shadow).

Since that gives you HiPs (most of the time) and Darkvision, that's probably the best way to get those things with templates/races/classes. As for items, I've never heard of an item that gives HiPs, but I could be wrong.

I know it's from ToM, but they reprinted it in the Cormyr book because it was needed for the storyline.

Douglas
2007-08-14, 12:11 PM
I know it's from ToM, but they reprinted it in the Cormyr book because it was needed for the storyline.
Which is relevant in this case because Tome of Magic is not on the OP's source list but this other book is (FR-specific). Since it apparently is in an acceptable source, the Dark creature template is almost certainly your best option.

Stam
2007-08-14, 12:18 PM
Assuming I can win an ECL+1 slot (they're not free, it's a lottery) aye, that seems to be the best idea. Fits fairly well with Mask as a deity and the thievery concept, too...

(Assuming that doesn't give the DMs any nasty ways to do nasty things to me.)

Otherwise, I'm going to spend the feats and 5 skill ranks to get into Shadowdancer, for a 2-level dip. And might pile on the Shadow-Walker template instead of Dark template...that grants some nifty SLAs and a minor Hide bonus, as well as an elf's stat adjustments.

Solo
2007-08-14, 12:24 PM
Have someone cast Darkvision and Permanency on you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-14, 12:49 PM
This is going to sound crazy, but bare with me...

Dwarf gets Darkvision. They also don't get a penalty to Dex (although they don't get a bonus either). They do get a penalty to Cha, but if you're looking for a cat-burgler, you're not going to be doing a whole lot of Party Face stuff. They also get the elf thing about spotting secret/concealed doors, but only in respect to stonework. They also get a +2 save vs poisons (handy if you miss a poison dart trap) and a +2 vs spell effects (also very handy), +2 and on Appraisal checks (handy for fencing your loot). So they do make surprisingly good Rogues.

HipS is harder without Shadowdancer. Why, exactly, are you wanting HipS? Are you wanting it to drop a hide check anywhere? If so, concealment will do just as well. For a +3 enhancement, you can get Gleaming put on your armor to give continual concealment, which not only makes you immune to sneak attacks, but it also means you can make a hide check at any time. Only other class thatthat you can qualify for is Assassin 8, which means you have to be Evil.

What is your beef with Shadowdancer? You're likely going to want Mobility anyways, and Perform isn't even a cross-class skill for Rogue anymore. Two level dip and you got everything you want.

yango
2007-08-14, 12:55 PM
How is concealment effectively hide in plain sight?

HiPS and concealment do related things. They work WITH each other, but they aren't the same

Under normal situations, you must have cover or concealment to hide at all. Camouflage is the only exception I can think of for this.

Hide in Plain Sight lets you Hide while observed, but it says nowhere that it negates the need for concealment or cover, which is a requirement for using the hide skill, as stated in the SRD. Effectively, all it really does is negate the need for a bluff check for the "create a diversion to hide while observed" use.

HiPS can't function without concealment or cover, but concealment doesn't work while being observed unless you have high bluff or HiPS.

Stam
2007-08-14, 01:37 PM
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Emphasis mine. HiPS rules a rogue's world.

yango
2007-08-14, 03:46 PM
Emphasis mine. HiPS rules a rogue's world.

Huh, I was looking at the ranger one, which doesn't give the "without anything to actually hide behind" statement.

I suppose it makes sense for the ranger version not to say that, because it would be redundant.

Stam
2007-08-14, 03:55 PM
Well, yeah. Because a Ranger gets Concealment in the same kind of terrain anyway, even if it doesn't provide it...his HiPS version just adds the 'while observed' to it.

yango
2007-08-14, 04:21 PM
Well, yeah. Because a Ranger gets Concealment in the same kind of terrain anyway, even if it doesn't provide it...his HiPS version just adds the 'while observed' to it.

Whats even more confusing is that one is Extraordinary, and the other is Supernatural, meaning that despite having the same name, they are QUITE different.

Stupid Wizards and their inconsistent abilities...

Draz74
2007-08-14, 04:34 PM
Community consensus seems to be that the Shadowdancer version of HiPS is actually quite different from most other HiPS abilities in this aspect. If the Ranger somehow got rid of his Camouflage feature, his HiPS wouldn't still negate the need for concealment/cover. Without concealment/cover, you can't Hide, even if you have Hide in Plain Sight, unless something says you can (like the Shadowdancer).

Stam
2007-08-14, 04:50 PM
Whats even more confusing is that one is Extraordinary, and the other is Supernatural, meaning that despite having the same name, they are QUITE different.

Stupid Wizards and their inconsistent abilities...
Oh, not at all.

A ranger is like...I'm in my favored terrain. I know how to hide here so well that I can be standing right in front of you and I'll disappear. Natural ability, hence (Ex).

A shadowdancer, however...four people are walking down a busy city street. Yet, for some reason, everyone around them can only see three people. The Shadowdancer, using one of his companion's shadows, has "stolen" all reflected light from himself.
Rather non-natural ability, hence (Su).

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 10:10 PM
Dwarf is actually kind of bad for a Rogue. That -10 to movespeed hurts their ability to make a quick getaway.:smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2007-08-14, 10:56 PM
Get a collar of umbral metamorphsis: Free Dark creature template for up to 10/min a day for only 10,800 gp or get a continuous one for 22,000 gp.

pg. 156 of the tome of magic.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-14, 11:48 PM
Get a collar of umbral metamorphsis: Free Dark creature template for up to 10/min a day for only 10,800 gp or get a continuous one for 22,000 gp.

pg. 156 of the tome of magic.

Whoa, you can get an entire template for a little cash?

Stam
2007-08-15, 07:17 AM
Dwarf is actually kind of bad for a Rogue. That -10 to movespeed hurts their ability to make a quick getaway.:smallbiggrin:

Well, a gnome or halfling will have the same problem...but one level of Monk, the Carmendine Monk feat and an hour of study every morning puts your speed at 30' just like everyone else :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2007-08-15, 07:41 AM
Get a collar of umbral metamorphsis: Free Dark creature template for up to 10/min a day for only 10,800 gp or get a continuous one for 22,000 gp. Yes, but that's the poorer, Extraordinary (Ex) version of Hide in Plain Sight which still requires cover/concealment.

Stam
2007-08-15, 01:57 PM
Yes, but that's the poorer, Extraordinary (Ex) version of Hide in Plain Sight which still requires cover/concealment.
I have not actually seen this item, but my local rules-master DM tells me that it ain't so. The Dark creature template's HiPS is apparently (Su) and works without concealment, so long as you're not in the radius of a Daylight spell or natural light.

Zeful
2007-08-15, 07:39 PM
The HiPS ability in the dark template doesn't specify the need/lack of need for cover, just that they not be in normal light or a daylight spell. Interpret as you will.

As for movement, the psionic feat Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought) and Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) are Great ways to insure your ability to escape. You can even ditch Climb and Rope Use with them. With some monk/barbarian and psychic rogue you can easily reach 50ft/rnd as long as you're psionically focused. Focused Skill User (from Complete Psionic) gives +2 competence bonuses to 3 skills as long as your psionically focused, giving you more use of your skill points.

Err I got carried away. Sorry

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-15, 10:48 PM
Dwarf is actually kind of bad for a Rogue. That -10 to movespeed hurts their ability to make a quick getaway.:smallbiggrin:

So snipe. Make a shot, vanish. If they can't find you, they can't chase you down. You don't need a quick getaway if they are unable to find you. In fact, you can make a leisurely getaway or even get back into the thick of things and do it again.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-15, 11:42 PM
So snipe. Make a shot, vanish. If they can't find you, they can't chase you down. You don't need a quick getaway if they are unable to find you. In fact, you can make a leisurely getaway or even get back into the thick of things and do it again.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of a burglar, who does in fact have to run.:smalltongue: Their only advantage might be that they can move just as fast as a Small character while carrying much more loot.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-15, 11:43 PM
I have not actually seen this item, but my local rules-master DM tells me that it ain't so. The Dark creature template's HiPS is apparently (Su) and works without concealment, so long as you're not in the radius of a Daylight spell or natural light. Your DM is wrong. Check Tome of Magic, page 161.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect). It's definitely Extraordinary, and does not include a statement like the one highlighted here:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. As an Extraordinary ability I would expect any ambiguity to be resolved by referencing similar (Ex) versions of HiPS, like the Ranger's:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. There's no mention of this (Ex) HiPS not requiring cover/concealment. Luckily for the Ranger, they have another class ability to help there:
Camouflage (Ex)

A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. Does the Dark Creature template include something like Camouflage? No, it doesn't.

The Dark Creature template version of HiPS still requires cover/concealment for the Hide skill, as usual.

Stam
2007-08-16, 07:57 AM
My DM was using the version in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave...so it's possible it was changed in the reprint?

Curmudgeon
2007-08-16, 12:25 PM
My DM was using the version in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave...so it's possible it was changed in the reprint? If so, it's an error. Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave is a Forgotten Realms adventure module, not a rules supplement, so it's not an authoritative source for any rules information.