What does a wizard bring to a party a cleric can't?

[Zhentarim]

Just wondering.

[AvatarVecna]

Wizards tend to have a better variety of BFC, area blasting, and utility. While clerics aren't lacking buffs and debuffs, wizard has a better variety of buffs that can be applied to the party, where the cleric's better buffs are personal, and the wizard is a bit less MAD than a cleric (who might want secemt physical scores in addition to Wisdom).

I wamna be very clear that I'm nof saying clerics are awful or worse than wizards across the board. You could build a cleric focused on buffing or debuffing rather than wading into melee as Clericzilla, or you could make a cleric that is almost all utulity spells. Both classes are extremely powerful and versatile.

[Eldariel]

Adding to Vecna's, depends on the Cleric. Domains allow them to cover any individual Wizard-thing, but generally things like shapeshifting, teleporting/flying, efficient BFC and indeed, direct damage and utility are Wizard territory.

Teleport is huge, Clerics get it from a domain. Pyrotechnics/Grease/Black Tentacles/Stinking Cloud are huge, Cleric only gets some through domains. Polymorph/Dragonshape are great, Cleric needs domains. Invisibility, see above. Contingency is the best defense in the game, Cleric needs Miracle. Lots of THINGS are Wizard-only by default and Cleric only gets few of them. Add to that Wizard having the best Wanded/low level healing in the system (Infernal Healing) and Wizards look pretty good. Clerics do have the same Summons tho, but with alignment restrictions. The broader list favours Wizards.

And while Wizard casting has Simulacrum, Planar Binding and Animate Dead/Command Undead, Clerics have significant advantages in Animate Dead/Desecrate/Command Undead, and Planar Ally isn't worthless even if much more expensive than Binding. Simulacrum is the big Wizard advantage as an SLA bot, but Clerica hold up fine

Also, familiar. Share spells, extra actions, stat bonuses and particularly Improved Familiars are huge. Share spells in particular; second Contingency, Wand/Scroll user, SLA/Commune user, etc. They are big game and an arcane only thing.

[RoboEmperor]

Wizard's combat spells >>> Cleric Spells.
Wizard's out of combat spells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cleric Spells.

That said, Clerics can destroy the world, so the wizard is overkill at the cost of a significantly more horrendous early game. I repeat for emphasis. Wizards are overkill. You only go wizard if you want to do something crazy.

[Nifft]

Religious tolerance?

[Eldariel]

Wizard's combat spells >>> Cleric Spells.
Wizard's out of combat spells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cleric Spells.

That said, Clerics can destroy the world, so the wizard is overkill at the cost of a significantly more horrendous early game. I repeat for emphasis. Wizards are overkill. You only go wizard if you want to do something crazy.

Wizard early game isn't worse, just different. On a scale from 1 to 10, Wizard level 1-5 offense with AOE save-or-loses is about 10, albeit with limited (if reasonable amounts of) ammo. Also, their peak power is strong enough that when using it, their risk of taking damage is low.

Their defense is like 3-4 in PF without options like Abrupt Jaunt though, and their average offense is a 1d8 shot or Daze or Alchemist's Fire. But they are unencumbered and ranged, and have incomparable encounter ending power in both, combat and noncombat.

Wizard
Peak active power: 10
Bottom active power: 4
Endurance: 6
Defense: 3



Cleric has lower peak offense and better defense.

Cleric
Peak active power: 7
Bottom active power: 4
Endurance: 7
Defense: 6

[Florian]

Depends more on play style of the group and the exact edition.
Generally speaking, Cleric has the better "reactive" spells, while Wizard has the better "active" spells. The later give you a better chance to avoid something, while the former are great when stuff happened.

[RoboEmperor]

Wizard early game isn't worse, just different. On a scale from 1 to 10, Wizard level 1-5 offense with AOE save-or-loses is about 10, albeit with limited (if reasonable amounts of) ammo. Their defense is like 3-4 in PF without options like Abrupt Jaunt though, and their average offense is a

I've actually known people who avoids wizards at all costs because of the d4 hit die. Compared to cleric's d8, at level 1 that's double your starting hp and high enough hp to avoid a one shot death. Also AC, even casting clerics can grab a tower shield and fullplate (no full plate at first level obviously) and be untouchable. Maybe I'm playing low level wizards wrong, but if the opponent makes their save against your spell, you are screwed. Royally so I might add, especially since wizards got no melee or AC or evasion.

Level 3 with Fiery Burst, their power starts to skyrocket, especially with web. Web is ridiculously amazing, and fiery burst at level 3 is also ridiculously amazing, but they still have pathetic defenses, and on the blasting front, Clerics are superior thanks to Conjure Ice Beast, and arguably at that level blasting > BFC, and clerics can spam fiery burst too.

Level 5 is when I say wizards start to surpass clerics (Fly, haste, stinking cloud, clerics need domains for these) but still compared to clerics I say wizards early game is atrocious, not different. If you mean different as in bad then yes I agree.

I've seen focused specialists with abrupt jaunt that solved their limited ammo and survivability problem, but that's optimizing to the max, not a normal wizard played by normal people.

edit: I missed the pathfinder tag again @_@.

[Florian]

edit: I missed the pathfinder tag again @_@.

Tsk, tsk...

[Eldariel]

I've actually known people who avoids wizards at all costs because of the d4 hit die. Compared to cleric's d8, at level 1 that's double your starting hp and high enough hp to avoid a one shot death. Also AC, even casting clerics can grab a tower shield and fullplate (no full plate at first level obviously) and be untouchable. Maybe I'm playing low level wizards wrong, but if the opponent makes their save against your spell, you are screwed. Royally so I might add, especially since wizards got no melee or AC or evasion.

Eh, considering 3.5 for a moment... People making illogical conclusions based on apparent drawbacks is nothing new but doesn't necessarily actually mean anything. D4 is low and Wizards can't take many hits - but even the highest HP characters can die in one blow on this level. D4 just makes it more likely - but D4 or D12, your best bet is avoiding being hit entirely. Level 1 is rocket tag anyways, with Wizards having the best rockets. You definitely want to minimize the amount of rolls you have to make since a single bad roll can kill anyone. And they aren't actually that bad at melee; it's just a stat check with +1 from BAB on level 1. Wizard is no worse at it than anyone else. They are however less likely to invest in Strength unless they want to go Gish and they can't wear non-Mage Armor. But speed is good at maintaining distance...and then making their save is much less likely than them not going down to a melee's attack.

And unlike with frontliners, Wizard's default position isn't at risk of taking the high damage hits. And yeah, armor is too expensive on level 1; best you can usually afford is Studded Leather, Chainmail or perhaps Chain Shirt if you're rich. Which is nice but one good roll from an enemy is all it takes. What should be in the front is expendable things like bought animals, NPC Warriors, animal companions and such. The classes with best defenses are the ones with class features like animal companions. Wizard built for L1 can take the ACF for get this, albeit at long-term penalty since it'll fall behind after he low levels. But if you want to be a great L1er, take this trade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) (you can't afford Familiar on L1 anyways).


Having played level 1 Wizards, I've had no trouble taking them to higher levels. Compared to classes like Monk, Rogue, or even Paladin they tend to be pretty well off due to the offense.

[Kurald Galain]

While I would hardly call it crippling, it is obvious that at low to moderate levels the wizard has inferior defenses compared to the cleric. Aside from one less hit point per level, you get less AC (cleric has 18 out of the box with medium armor and shield; wizard is at ~12 AC until he gets continous mage armor), and less saving throws (cleric has two strong saves and a guaranteed good wisdom mod; wiz does not).

The tradeoff is that wizard spells are more versatile than cleric spells, and the best wizard school powers are better than domains.


edit: I missed the pathfinder tag again @_@.
So did Eldariel, obviously.

[Eldariel]

While I would hardly call it crippling, it is obvious that at low to moderate levels the wizard has inferior defenses compared to the cleric. Aside from one less hit point per level, you get less AC (cleric has 18 out of the box with medium armor and shield; wizard is at ~12 AC until he gets continous mage armor), and less saving throws (cleric has two strong saves and a guaranteed good wisdom mod; wiz does not).

The tradeoff is that wizard spells are more versatile than cleric spells, and the best wizard school powers are better than domains.


So did Eldariel, obviously.

I did not but I responded to the sentiment as presented for 3.5 too since it happened to come up.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The biggest reason I can think of is that clerics are beholden to a higher power. Under normal circumstances.

[Krazzman]

More and better Knowledge skills except maybe one really specific cleric (don't know how knowledge domain and so on works...).

Also dresses instead of clunky armor.

[Zhentarim]

More and better Knowledge skills except maybe one really specific cleric (don't know how knowledge domain and so on works...).

Also dresses instead of clunky armor.

This is off topic, but...
You're from Aachen?! That is so cool!

[Calthropstu]

Fly, haste, dimension door, teleport, fireball, disintigrate, planar binding, cone of cold, sleep, magic missle, prismatic spray/wall/sphere, wall of force...
While a cleric might be able to get a couple of the wiz/sor spells, they can never get more than a small handful.
The wizards spell list contains the best attack spells and the best utility spells.

[Gnaeus]

While I would hardly call it crippling, it is obvious that at low to moderate levels the wizard has inferior defenses compared to the cleric. Aside from one less hit point per level, you get less AC (cleric has 18 out of the box with medium armor and shield; wizard is at ~12 AC until he gets continous mage armor), and less saving throws (cleric has two strong saves and a guaranteed good wisdom mod; wiz does not.

His AC doesn't have to be that bad. A suit of leather armor likely gives him 14 at 90% spell success. If you pick class options that don't use ACF and your str isn't awful you can easily wear armor. Even studded and a buckler is 80% chance to get your spells off, and that's likely AC 16. My last sorcerer, for example, wore armor on and off until level 4. He had trip attempts at 15 feet from his bloodline. Intimidate checks for an at will debuff. I think I lost maybe 2 spells to ASF in those 3 levels.

And with marginal effort you can do better. Take one of the traits to reduce metamagic and still spell and you can cast a stilled first level spell out of first level slots. Or you could take spells which are used out of combat (mount, identify, infernal healing). Or ones with no somatic component (ventriloquism, feather fall). Or use a couple spells in your first significant fight then put your armor on. And scrolls have no ASF. Second level spells are even better. Blindness and Blur are great options for the armored mage.


With a little system mastery you can easily wear armor in PF at least part of the adventuring day until you start throwing third level spells.

Also, the wizard can functionally have a second good save with the right familiar picks, if desired.

[FreddyNoNose]

Religious tolerance?

::lol::

I was going to say Intelligence!

[Zhentarim]

His AC doesn't have to be that bad. A suit of leather armor likely gives him 14 at 90% spell success. If you pick class options that don't use ACF and your str isn't awful you can easily wear armor. Even studded and a buckler is 80% chance to get your spells off, and that's likely AC 16. My last sorcerer, for example, wore armor on and off until level 4. He had trip attempts at 15 feet from his bloodline. Intimidate checks for an at will debuff. I think I lost maybe 2 spells to ASF in those 3 levels.

And with marginal effort you can do better. Take one of the traits to reduce metamagic and still spell and you can cast a stilled first level spell out of first level slots. Or you could take spells which are used out of combat (mount, identify, infernal healing). Or ones with no somatic component (ventriloquism, feather fall). Or use a couple spells in your first significant fight then put your armor on. And scrolls have no ASF. Second level spells are even better. Blindness and Blur are great options for the armored mage.


With a little system mastery you can easily wear armor in PF at least part of the adventuring day until you start throwing third level spells.

Also, the wizard can functionally have a second good save with the right familiar picks, if desired.

I make dex my key stat right out of the gate, with INT not far behind.

[Amphetryon]

Better access to the game's Skill subsystem, particularly the Knowledge Skills.

[Kurald Galain]

His AC doesn't have to be that bad. A suit of leather armor likely gives him 14 at 90% spell success.
Interesting point. I've never seen any wizard who had spell failure on his build, before.


With a little system mastery you can easily wear armor in PF at least part of the adventuring day until you start throwing third level spells.
Well, yes. My point is that right out of the box, without any optimization, cleric's AC and saves are substantially better. The wizard can improve these with system mastery, but of course the cleric can do that too. It seems to me that given equal levels of system mastery, the cleric's defenses are going to be markedly better until you get to level 10 or so.

[Gnaeus]

Interesting point. I've never seen any wizard who had spell failure on his build, before.


Well, yes. My point is that right out of the box, without any optimization, cleric's AC and saves are substantially better. The wizard can improve these with system mastery, but of course the cleric can do that too. It seems to me that given equal levels of system mastery, the cleric's defenses are going to be markedly better until you get to level 10 or so.

I don't recommend it in all games, but if you are worried about dying at level 1 it's a valid option for many characters, especially if they have something giving extra AC like a racial NA or high dex, and if retraining is on the table it's even better.

I would only agree with the second statement if we are talking about unbuffed defenses. I don't think taking a rat familiar from the PHB is high op (honestly, I think the action economy Familiars are better than the save ones, so I don't think it's op at all). And the core wizard spell defenses clearly outstrip the cleric by level 3. By second level I would much rather have vanish than sanctuary. A scroll of shield costs 12.5 gp and likely pushes a wizard in studded leather to a better AC than the cleric for key fights. At level 3, with false life the wizard has more hp than the cleric. An armored cloth caster has Blur (and a scroll of mirror image). An unarmored one has mirror image (and a scroll of Blur). If buffing is your thing, invisibility. And a faster movement rate, with spells like expeditious retreat to buff it further. I don't think low level defenses are a clear win for a cleric unless the wizard abandons the effort for more offense, which is also valid.

[CharonsHelper]

Interesting point. I've never seen any wizard who had spell failure on his build, before.

I have technically. Remember - the Pathfinder version of Arcane Armor Training requires a swift action to use. So - 95% of the time they didn't CAST with any spell failure chance, but it was still on their build.

I did play a sorcerer who had a low % chance for the first few levels, but he was a melee natural weapon sorcerer aimed at Dragon Disciple (bite attack from being a Tiefling - claws from bloodline ability), and he didn't do much/any combat spell-casting.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think taking a rat familiar from the PHB is high op
Neither do I, but cleric saves plus high wisdom are still better than wizard saves plus a rat; and cleric's chainmail and shield still beat the wizard's studded leather and shield spell.

Blur and Mirror Image are indeed much better defenses than the cleric gets; but if you're regularly casting those at level 3 then I'd question the character's contribution to combat (both in spells per day and in actions per combat). By level 5-6 you can feasibly afford one defensive buff per combat, and the cleric's Shield of Faith doesn't stack up to that.

But like I said, this is hardly crippling for the wizard, and in exchange he does get a better spell list than the cleric.

[Gnaeus]

Blur and Mirror Image are indeed much better defenses than the cleric gets; but if you're regularly casting those at level 3 then I'd question the character's contribution to combat (both in spells per day and in actions per combat). By level 5-6 you can feasibly afford one defensive buff per combat, and the cleric's Shield of Faith doesn't stack up to that..

Unless you are reading it from a 75 gp scroll you made with scribe scroll.

False life lasts for hours.

I would agree that the cleric has better unbuffed static defenses. But the wizard likely wins any time he is aware he is walking into a tough fight.

[CharonsHelper]

Unless you are reading it from a 75 gp scroll you made with scribe scroll.

At level 3, even assuming that you had sufficient down-time, do you really want to blow 75gp every fight? Besides - any in-combat self-buffing hurts your action economy too much to be worth it very often. Most fights are only a few rounds anyway.

[Gnaeus]

At level 3, even assuming that you had sufficient down-time, do you really want to blow nearly 40gp every fight? Besides - any in-combat self-buffing hurts your action economy too much to be worth it very often. Most fights are only a few rounds anyway.

And that's why I said that the wizard wins when he is aware he is walking into a tough fight. Is it better to have better defenses for the minions? Or for the boss fight where your front line may actually go down? I'd rather have the wizards defenses personally, but I'll admit it is very dependent on how good your team is at scouting and how likely your DM is to ambush you. I've also seen buff and run groups where the party clears a couple of rooms in rapid sequence with min/lev buffs, and I have one DM where every time we start a fight every surrounding monster perks up their ears and piles into the room.

The wizard can have 14 2nd level scrolls made for the cost of a +1 breastplate. 26 for the cost of a +1 weapon. By level 3 it's not hard for the wizard to have defenses available whenever he needs them.

So basically it depends a lot on environment and play style. But there are enough conditions in which the wizard wins that I'd have to say there is some parity there.

[Kurald Galain]

By level 3 it's not hard for the wizard to have defenses available whenever he needs them.
The main issue with your comparison is that you assume the wizard crafts and the cleric does nothing.

In pretty much all campaigns I've seen, either the there's not enough downtime to craft (you can craft while adventuring, but you'll be using up scrolls faster than you can scribe them), or crafting is not allowed at all, or the cleric also crafts (because if crafting is an option, Scribe or Brew or CWI is a very good choice for a cleric feat).

Point is, the wizard is hampered much more by not getting those fourteen scrolls, than the cleric is by not getting that +1 armor. Heck, getting +1 armor isn't even a priority for most clerics, because they get good AC straight out of the box :smallamused:

[Gnaeus]

The main issue with your comparison is that you assume the wizard crafts and the cleric does nothing.

In pretty much all campaigns I've seen, either the there's not enough downtime to craft (you can craft while adventuring, but you'll be using up scrolls faster than you can scribe them), or crafting is not allowed at all, or the cleric also crafts (because if crafting is an option, Scribe or Brew or CWI is a very good choice for a cleric feat).

Point is, the wizard is hampered much more by not getting those fourteen scrolls, than the cleric is by not getting that +1 armor. Heck, getting +1 armor isn't even a priority for most clerics, because they get good AC straight out of the box :smallamused:

Except that as you noted, the wizard defense spells are better than the equivalent level cleric defense spells. And the wizard gets it for free as a class feature. So if the cleric has also spent a feat on scribe scroll, the cleric is playing catch-up to the wizard's defense options, and the wizard has an extra feat that he could use for any number of defensive options (like the aforementioned still spell). And the wizard gets the extra benefit that there is no ACF on his scrolls, so wearing armor is that much more attractive, which is meaningless to the cleric.

[Kurald Galain]

And the wizard gets the extra benefit that there is no ACF on his scrolls,

Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/scrolls/)

[gkathellar]

Broadly speaking, not much, but they have many specific toys that are stronger than anything the cleric can field. In particular, their control and utility spells are unrivaled. In addition, arcane casters have access to some great PrCs, and actually make better use of bonus domains than clerics do.

Think about the inverse question - what do clerics bring that wizards don't? If you said, "turning and facility in melee at low-mid-levels," congrats! You win! Mainly though, the differences are in the spell list.