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Shadow_in_the_Mist
2017-09-17, 01:57 AM
Ah, the Amazon; the mighty warrior-woman of a fantasy era long past. Whether you feel a sense of fondness or shame for this character archetype, there can be no denying its impact on Dungeons & Dragons. Beyond the subtle fact that women are presented as being equally capable of adventuring as men, in the distant days of AD&D, Amazons were not only a monster in one of the Greyhawk compendiums, but actually presented as a PC option too.

Yes, it's true: the Complete Fighter's Handbook had an Amazon Warrior kit for fighters, which was followed by the Amazon Priestess and Sorceress in the Priest's and Wizard's Handbooks. Now, in all fairness, they weren't very good kits - honestly, they're a little embarrassing to look back upon.

Still, the nostalgia fuel is enough to make me wonder something. Among their many other problems, Amazons often tend to run into the issue that they ultimately boil down to being defined by the fact that they're a human culture where women are the warriors instead of men. But... what if you mixed the Amazon concept with the "humanoid" concept? Amazon Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings were actually mentioned, albeit (very) briefly, in AD&D.

So, I came here to ask; what ideas can you come up with for Amazon cultures based on races other than humans?

Incidentally, yes, I'm aware of the various logistical issues that make warrior-women...inefficient... in real life. But this is fantasy. If you can buy creatures that spew lightning, or live off a diet comprised entirely of brain tissue, or consider volcanic magma a comforting material to bathe in, then you can buy Amazons. If you can't buy Amazons, then kindly keep it to yourself.

Speaking from a personal perspective, in general, I can see Amazons falling into one of two conceptual bases; the "Racial", where you have a species entirely comprised of women and must thusly have some way of reproducing asexually or homosexually, and the "Cultural", where the Amazons instead represent a distinctive faction within an otherwise normal race. As such, I intend to try and come up with one concept for both archetypes for each race that I have ideas for.

Whilst my own inspiration sadly ended with these three, I will point out that an Amazon race based on High Elves or Eladrin would be a very unique take on the subject; these races are traditionally associated with magic over martial prowess, and whereas the "standard" Amazon is a proud warrior, nothing says that elven Amazons cannot turn to war-magics and/or the blending of martial & magical prowess to support themselves.

Dwarf Amazons:
Racial: The Daughters of the Earth Mother
In this iteration, dwarves were not created by the typical grim, long-bearded, smith-like creator-god, ala Moradin. Instead, they were shaped into being by the desires of the Earth Mother, goddess of the world, of life, and of creation in its most literal act. Born to give her comfort in her loneliness, the dwarven stature reaffirms their metaphysical status as her children, whilst their otherwise mature and solid physiques is due to being made in their image.

These dwarven amazons most likely reproduce through crafting new generations; a dwarf may spend years, even decades, painstakingly carving the most perfect depiction of a dwarven infant she can from the best stone she can get before ceremonially praying to the Earth Mother and having her daughter brought to life. They may also be able to literally will new dwarves to spring to life fully grown from earth or stone, but such acts are potent divine intervention, and thus likely restricted to the mightest priestesses, sacred celesial conjunctions, or the direst need of the dwarven people.

This version of the dwarven amazon is compatible with all three of the dwarf subraces so far, and the subrace chosen can affect further refining of the concept. Using Mountain Dwarves as the basis for the Daughters suggests a war-like and possibly aggressive people, clearly possessed of a strong martial tradition. Hill Dwarves, in comparison, suggest a more peaceful culture, one that revels in the blessings of its divine matriarch. Duergar, if one shakes off the alignment expectations, would represent a more mystical version of the Daughters, one that believes in living as close to their mother's womb as possible. The three subraces could even be used in tandem to represent specific castes of the same race; hill dwarves as the "civilians", mountain dwarves as the warrior-caste, and duergar as the mystics.

Cultural: The Hearthguard
In this iteration, dwarven culture is not patriarchal, but matriarchal. Women are respected as the keepers of the hearth; they are the center of the clan which is traditionally so important to the dwarven mentality. A dwarven woman is trained from birth to fight; not to seek war abroad, but because when danger threatens the clan-holds, it is the women who take to the field, fiercer and more terrible by far than the menfolk.

Obviously, this iteration works best for amazons of the "men are respected, but do not fight" style.


Orc Amazons:
Cultural: The Wild Tribe
In most depictions of orcish culture, despite being every bit as capable as their menfolk, females are oppressed and downtrodded, treated like chattel and fit only for sating lust and birthing litters. When a female possesses sufficient strength to fight her way to a position of power, usually, she then comes down in support of these oppressive behaviors: paranoid fear of being overthrown by a feminine rival leading to behavior that sabotages the chances of her gender as a whole.

The Wild Tribe iteration is a case where this was not what happened. Instead, the founder-heroine of this tribe of all-female orcs rallied her sisters to rise up and escape their oppressors. Being orcs, of course, this amounted to murdering their menfolk in a gruesome orgy of violence.

Naturally aware of their tenuous position, the Wild Tribe has learned to fight smarter, rather than harder; they mostly war with other orcs, who see them as an abomination in the eyes of Gruumsh, and have learned tactics such as ambush, retreat and subterfuge in order to survive.

Most likely, the Wild Tribe follows the darker aspects of Amazonian propagation; capturing strong, virile-seeming male orcs and then dispatching them after they have been bred to as many females as plausible, with the sons being executed and the daughters brought up to follow in the steps of their mothers.

An obvious step to take in order to soften the Wild Tribe is to have them make peace with local humans; any ally is better than no allies, even if it is a bunch of pinkskins. This may even lead to voluntary mating between Wild Tribe females and human men - who, for all their faults, are rarely as abusive or violent as male orcs. In fact, the Wild Tribe may now be predominantly or solely comprised of half-orcs, even though they would still culturally consider themselves "orcs".

A grayer tone, of course, is to merge both aspects together; the Wild Tribe trades with its human neighbors and takes temporary lovers from their ranks, but also routinely captures, breeds with and sacrifices orc males to ensure its bloodline remains strong and vigorous.


Gnoll Amazons:
Racial: The Elder Sisters
In spotted hyena packs, it is the females who feed first. So, when magic taints the carcasses upon which they feed, it is the females who are subsequently transformed into gnolls.

This iteration of gnollish amazons can work either with Yeenoghu - who may be female as well, in this setting - or with a primal spirit of some kind.

Regardless, the Elder Sisters are a race comprised solely of hyena-women, who propagate through magic; they anoint selected corpses with mystical reagents - and just whose they select would depend on their interpretation; these could be their own dead, or just victims they slaughtered - and feed these to hyena packs. The females eat first, and so transform into new gnolls as well.

Cultural: Daughters of She-Is-Fiercer
Perhaps the simplest and most obvious race of non-human Amazons in D&D; these gnolls emulate their spotted hyena relatives, and so it is the females who are bigger, stronger, fiercer and in charge. Males tend to domestic work, whilst females fight and lead.

Regitnui
2017-09-17, 03:02 AM
What are the issues with female warriors? I haven't heard of any, though I'm assuming it has something to do with pregnancy, considering your amazon concepts do their best to make pathogenesis a thing. I'm not gynaecologist, so I don't know if pregnancy is biologically as debilitating as to prevent an Amazon culture from being as viable as a patriarchal one.

I'm surprised the gnolls aren't already matriarchal, given their inspiration. Larger, stronger females are a natural shoo-in for the warriors, while the smaller males care for pups and practice the stealthy arts. (Oh, wait, FR gnolls are mindless consuming locusts. Never mind.) A gnoll culture is a great example of how gender roles as seen in today's society can be flipped without a lot of disruption to the status quo, except for all the leaders suddenly being a different gender.

In a different thread, I proposed that Yeenoghu was actually female, and her constant anger was from constantly being misgendered by mortals and other demon lords.

Shadow_in_the_Mist
2017-09-17, 03:39 AM
What are the issues with female warriors? I haven't heard of any, though I'm assuming it has something to do with pregnancy, considering your amazon concepts do their best to make pathogenesis a thing. I'm not gynaecologist, so I don't know if pregnancy is biologically as debilitating as to prevent an Amazon culture from being as viable as a patriarchal one.
I don' particularly want to talk about it too much, because I'm afraid the "realists" will use it as an excuse to derail this thread, but basically, aside from the issues of reproduction (fighting whilst pregnant, killing off breeding females), there's also the whole "women have less reach and muscle mass" thing, which, by the numbers, argues that women should always be inferior to men in physical combat. These were the root-causes behind the infamous, and very quickly abandoned, "-4 Str" meme.


I'm surprised the gnolls aren't already matriarchal, given their inspiration. Larger, stronger females are a natural shoo-in for the warriors, while the smaller males care for pups and practice the stealthy arts. (Oh, wait, FR gnolls are mindless consuming locusts. Never mind.) A gnoll culture is a great example of how gender roles as seen in today's society can be flipped without a lot of disruption to the status quo, except for all the leaders suddenly being a different gender.

In a different thread, I proposed that Yeenoghu was actually female, and her constant anger was from constantly being misgendered by mortals and other demon lords.

Yeah, honestly, you'd expect gnolls to be matriarchal - they aren't mostly because of their torturous evolution (they went from generic "ugly humanoid monsters" of mixed gnome and trollish ancestry to hyena-people) and the fact that... nobody ever gave them any attention. Seriously, compare the AD&D Monstrous Manual's entry on the gnoll vs the one on the orc or the sahuagin. It's barely half the size.

It's mostly stuck around for tradition - even Pathfinder sticks with it, although they seem to flipflop on the matter with every other book.

Footman
2017-09-17, 03:52 AM
Actually, in History there were many Warrior Woman without being Amazons, because there were many Ancient Societies that were Egalitarian. The Idea of Amazons stems from the Greeks who had a very Patriarchal Society, and probably comes from seeing other Cultures with Woman who Fight.

I'll give you a few examples:

1. Almost all Nomadic Folk were egalitarian out of necessarity. Everyone needs to be able to do Everything. The Tribe must survive, so People didn't specialize as much. Woman fighting here was perfectly normal. The Scythians would be one Example, of such a culture. The Huns would be another. One thing that is very funny with the Huns, is that Woman could become Leaders and Warriors just like the man, but they were not allowed to Watch over the horses. They kind tought only a man should do that.

2. Other Societies who were egalitarian would be the Celts and the Vikings. Your Gender meant nothing. You Social Position was the most importent here.

There are actually quite a lot famous Warrior Woman in History, Queen Boudica of the Iceni, Tomoe Gozen (Onegeishi Busha; Female Samurai) Ching Shih (very Powerful Chinese Pirate Queen.) These are only a few examples.

As History has shown there is no Issue with Woman fighting, of course the Christany bein rather partriarchal, and other Religens like that spreading, and taking over made that Female Warriors rarer with the Time, depending on Location and Culture.

I found a list for you here:
http://www.rejectedprincesses.com/women-in-combat

If you want to have female Warriors, you can just take inspiration from one of these cultures. Also Logistics and pregancy aren't that much of a Big Deal, since humans can survive with very little, and Pregnancy pretty much only becomes an Issue if the Woman in Question is heading into Combat 9 Months Pregnant. Most Campaigns often don't last as long.
Also there have been historical reports of Woman giving Birth on the Battlefield, and then just going right back to Fighting. So Kazumis Pregnant Badass Scene is actually rather acurrate. How inconvienient a Pregnancy is depends on the woman in Question.

Now to the Amazons themselves. The Greeks had a very Patriarchal Society which means, they feared Warrior Woman, so it is likely that they Exterragated female Warriors into "Amazons". Amazons are more of a Myth, though Historians aren't sure if there hasn't been a Society like that.

So if you really want to have an "Amazon" culture, then look into Greek Myths, because that is their Origin.

Herobizkit
2017-09-17, 05:01 AM
Goliath Amazons: Death by Snu-Snu.

Regitnui
2017-09-17, 06:03 AM
Pregnancy pretty much only becomes an Issue if the Woman in Question is heading into Combat 9 Months Pregnant. Most Campaigns often don't last as long.
Also there have been historical reports of Woman giving Birth on the Battlefield, and then just going right back to Fighting. So Kazumis Pregnant Badass Scene is actually rather acurrate. How inconvienient a Pregnancy is depends on the woman in Question.

Dodgy capitalization aside, I think this would be very true for any "amazon" culture. Even if there was a cultural taboo against pregnant warriors, it would be 8-12 weeks, not the entire 9 months. So I really don't think pathogenesis or "women are physically weaker" should have any bearing on this question.

What would a matriarchal culture of [I]any[I] race look like?


Goliath Amazons: Death by Snu-Snu.

You joke, but goliaths, by their usual fluff, are very likely to be among the most egalitarian. You keep up or you get left behind, and everyone's a warrior. Simple enough.

Unoriginal
2017-09-17, 06:59 AM
In real life, there are reasons beyond "patriarchal societies" as to why female fighters were historically rare. One of the main reason was that if most of a people's women died fighting, the people in question was pretty much screwed, while they would be more capable of recovering from nearly all the men dying. Another reason is basically the same reason why most modern sports have separate male and female competitions.

Btw, Footman, Celts and Vikings were certainly not egalitarians.

Now, as OP pointed out, in D&D this is not a concern, for good reasons, and we shouldn't concern ourselves with historicity or the like.

On the other hand, it works both way: if male and female humanoids have the same kind of physical prowess in D&D, which are the reasons a culture would specifically have women warriors? And this is a question one shall find an explanation to justify having Amazons.



I'm surprised the gnolls aren't already matriarchal, given their inspiration. Larger, stronger females are a natural shoo-in for the warriors, while the smaller males care for pups and practice the stealthy arts. (Oh, wait, FR gnolls are mindless consuming locusts. Never mind.) A gnoll culture is a great example of how gender roles as seen in today's society can be flipped without a lot of disruption to the status quo, except for all the leaders suddenly being a different gender.



Yeah, honestly, you'd expect gnolls to be matriarchal - they aren't mostly because of their torturous evolution (they went from generic "ugly humanoid monsters" of mixed gnome and trollish ancestry to hyena-people) and the fact that... nobody ever gave them any attention. Seriously, compare the AD&D Monstrous Manual's entry on the gnoll vs the one on the orc or the sahuagin. It's barely half the size.

It's mostly stuck around for tradition - even Pathfinder sticks with it, although they seem to flipflop on the matter with every other book.

You're forgetting three things:

First, Gnolls are inspired by all the kinds of hyenas, not just the spotted ones, and not all hyenas have dominant females.

Second, as said before, D&D doesn't make distinction of physical capacities between genders for humanoids, so the male and female Gnolls would be equal there.

Third, in their current incarnation, the Gnolls have no reason to care for the gender of their leaders, just about how much butts they can kick and people they can eat. A Gnoll chief can be a man or a woman and their subordinates wouldn't think of them differently.



An idea I had for my campaign is to make the PCs encounter a wounded, pregnant hyena in a cave, the sole survivor from her cackle after its encounter with a big monster. If the PCs decides to heal her, she would eventually show up as a Gnoll lord, her and her kids having transformed due to the Gnolls' influence, but still remembering the kindness the PCs showed her and being willing to treat them with as much benevolence a Gnoll is capable.

PhoenixPhyre
2017-09-17, 08:31 AM
My world doesn't have gnolls, but it does already have Amazon halflings. Long story short, halflings are matriarchal, have physical castes somewhat like bees, and most of their militia are female, since they consider the males pretty but useless. Females are marginally larger and stronger than males (no difference in ability scores, but in fluff).

They tend to the zerg "we can always make more" philosophy of combat--the non breeding females swarm the foe ruthlessly without too much concern for personal safety. Attacking an entrenched halfling clan is like thwacking a hornet's nest, except these have magic and steel.

Footman
2017-09-17, 11:11 AM
In real life, there are reasons beyond "patriarchal societies" as to why female fighters were historically rare. One of the main reason was that if most of a people's women died fighting, the people in question was pretty much screwed, while they would be more capable of recovering from nearly all the men dying. Another reason is basically the same reason why most modern sports have separate male and female competitions.

Btw, Footman, Celts and Vikings were certainly not egalitarians.


They were Eglitarian for the most Part, seeing as there were no unified "Celts" just a lot of Tribes with a very similar Culture, this could vary a bit from Tribe to Tribe, but for the most part they were Egalitrian. The Vikings are Tricky, it is not proven that they were Eglitarian, but it is not proven that they were not. Considering Viking Mythologie and that only the ones that earn Glory in Battle go to Valhalla, (everyone else goes to Hel) it makes no sense that there weren't Female Viking Warriors.

Your Main Reason, about all the Woman dying is false. No one would send their entire Population into the Battle, because most of your Population wasn't fit or trained for combat anyway. An Army above all Else needs, a lot of support to be maintained. You need far, far more People to produce Food, Armor, and supplies for your Army, then you need Fighters. If you would Muster a very big Army, you would send about 30% of your Population, even if they would all be killed off, your People would never be in Danger of extinction, even if you would only send Woman. They would take a bit longer to Recover their Numbers, depending on how much Food there is avivable, this could actually be better, because nothing destabilizes a Country quicker than a Food shortage.

Look at Link i provided above. There were a lot of Woman in History who fought, thanks to modern society they seldom get the Spotlight.

Regitnui
2017-09-17, 11:17 AM
You're forgetting three things:

First, Gnolls are inspired by all the kinds of hyenas, not just the spotted ones, and not all hyenas have dominant females.

Second, as said before, D&D doesn't make distinction of physical capacities between genders for humanoids, so the male and female Gnolls would be equal there.

Third, in their current incarnation, the Gnolls have no reason to care for the gender of their leaders, just about how much butts they can kick and people they can eat. A Gnoll chief can be a man or a woman and their subordinates wouldn't think of them differently.

We're not ignoring those points, but instead using an unusual trait of a real world animal (apparent hermaphroditism of spotted hyenas) and applying to to an otherwise generic monster race to enhance their fluff. If D&D doesn't differentiate mechanically between male and female of a species, it doesn't matter if the female gnolls are physically bigger than the males and look practically identical.

Unoriginal
2017-09-17, 11:37 AM
They were Eglitarian for the most Part, seeing as there were no unified "Celts" just a lot of Tribes with a very similar Culture, this could vary a bit from Tribe to Tribe, but for the most part they were Egalitrian.

I'm kind of curious about what you consider "egalitarian for the most part".


The Vikings are Tricky, it is not proven that they were Eglitarian, but it is not proven that they were not. Considering Viking Mythologie and that only the ones that earn Glory in Battle go to Valhalla, (everyone else goes to Hel) it makes no sense that there weren't Female Viking Warriors.

There weren't female viking warriors, aside from a few exceptions that weren't documented. I don't know why you'd think that Norse mythology would indicate that there were female warriors that'd go viking (viking is a job, by the way, not a people). The Norse didn't treat most women as equal to men.



Your Main Reason, about all the Woman dying is false. No one would send their entire Population into the Battle, because most of your Population wasn't fit or trained for combat anyway. An Army above all Else needs, a lot of support to be maintained. You need far, far more People to produce Food, Armor, and supplies for your Army, then you need Fighters. If you would Muster a very big Army, you would send about 30% of your Population, even if they would all be killed off, your People would never be in Danger of extinction, even if you would only send Woman. They would take a bit longer to Recover their Numbers, depending on how much Food there is avivable, this could actually be better, because nothing destabilizes a Country quicker than a Food shortage.

... you kind of forgot what happened to populations that had their warriors defeated. Y'know, the whole "massacre of civilians" thing.

Also, back in Antiquity it was common that 100% of a people's male able-bodied individuals were expected to fight if a war happened.




Look at Link i provided above. There were a lot of Woman in History who fought, thanks to modern society they seldom get the Spotlight.

Oh, a lot of women fought, but it's certainly not only modern society that put them away from the spotlight (you'll note the women on the list you linked are exceptional individuals who accomplished great things, and not just "rank and file" female troopers, if you get what I mean).

Though one of the most extreme exemple of this happening I know off happened with the female Russian soldiers of WWII, who were so much **** on by the authorities after the way that their name became an horrible insult.

Footman
2017-09-17, 12:06 PM
@Unoriginal
Well, I could now simply stat that every of your Statements is untrue, but since i already did that, there is further Point in arguing.
For the sake of not derailing the Thread here, lets agree to Disargee, our Opinions are pretty much exactly the Opposit.
It really itches me to provide more Counterguments, but like i said, i don't want to derail this Thread futher than i already have.

Regitnui
2017-09-17, 01:15 PM
There weren't female viking warriors, aside from a few exceptions that weren't documented. I don't know why you'd think that Norse mythology would indicate that there were female warriors that'd go viking (viking is a job, by the way, not a people). The Norse didn't treat most women as equal to men.


Demonstratably (https://www.google.co.za/amp/amp.history.com/news/what-was-life-like-for-women-in-the-viking-age) wrong. (http://sciencenordic.com/don’t-underestimate-viking-women) Viking women fought alongside men on their raids. Viking women were buried as warriors. Careful, Unoriginal, you're starting to sound as if you're dismissing the premise based on assumptions.

Unoriginal
2017-09-17, 01:58 PM
Demonstratably (https://www.google.co.za/amp/amp.history.com/news/what-was-life-like-for-women-in-the-viking-age) wrong. (http://sciencenordic.com/don’t-underestimate-viking-women) Viking women fought alongside men on their raids. Viking women were buried as warriors. Careful, Unoriginal, you're starting to sound as if you're dismissing the premise based on assumptions.

What? I'm not dismissing the premise at all. I've never said that warrior women or Amazons were to be dismissed, and in fact I've said the exact contrary, several time. I've also said that there is no real reason

I've just pointed out the reasons why the Gnolls weren't matriarchal in D&D lore, without saying one couldn't change it, and said that since D&D didn't include difference in gender's physical capacities for the humanoids, a different justification was needed to explain why there would be cultural reasons for a woman-only fighting force. For exemple, in Warhammer 40k, the Sisters of Battle were formed because the church has a contract promising they will never have "armed men" under their command, so they exploited that loophole to create one of the most fearsome armies of a galaxy filled with daemons and supersoldiers entirely by recruiting women.


As for the female Viking warriors, I admit I was wrong, my info on the subject were inaccurate. I maintain that the Celts and the Norse didn't treat women equally to men (although they were more egalitarian than many people, fair enough), because I've seen enough evidences of it, and saying "every of [my] Statements is untrue" would be wrong, but as you said this is not the thread to debate this.

Regitnui
2017-09-17, 03:19 PM
I've just pointed out the reasons why the Gnolls weren't matriarchal in D&D lore, without saying one couldn't change it, and said that since D&D didn't include difference in gender's physical capacities for the humanoids, a different justification was needed to explain why there would be cultural reasons for a woman-only fighting force.

Well, the gnolls have, as we have shown, a possible source to draw from.

But more to the point, if there's no reason the genders are different in the mechanics, why have an all-male fighting force? Surely it'd be easiest to assume the egalitarian route? If you can fight, you fight. If you can work, you work. All-female armies may be as common as all-male armies in the worlds of D&D.

Unoriginal
2017-09-17, 04:18 PM
Well, the gnolls have, as we have shown, a possible source to draw from.

But more to the point, if there's no reason the genders are different in the mechanics, why have an all-male fighting force? Surely it'd be easiest to assume the egalitarian route?

Well sure, that's what I have in my setting, and from what I've seen, the published books and the adventure modules also do it


All-female armies may be as common as all-male armies in the worlds of D&D.

True, but as I said, there probably is a in-universe reason for why X troop is all-male or all-female. Ex: the vampire Xorov only authorizes women to bear arms in his barony, as a prophecy says he will meet his end in a sword duel against a true son of the barony.

Now that I think of it, a culture that could easily justify an all-female fighting group would be the Drow's. As much as the female Drow are more thought as Priestesses for Lolth, it wouldn't be out-of-character for them to train elite women warriors way above the "worthless men".