Thoughts on finesse weapons.

[ZorroGames]

While wiling away on a Variant human Arcana Cleric build several finesse weapons popped into my head.

First, I noticed that only one Thrown Weapon has the Finesse quality - Dart. On PHB page 147 it ralks about "Finesse" and "Thrown" and "Ranged" weapons. Dart seems to be the only Ranged with both Finesse and Ranged properties! The question comes to mind, "Why only that one?" Monks?

Second, looking at PHB page 170 it strikes me that the Weapon Master feat is the only way, short of multi-classing, for a character with "Simple Weapons only" to pick up all four martial melee finesse weapons - Rapier, Scimitar, S. Swd, and whip.

Add Dagger and Dart from Simple weapons and you have all six Finesse weapons from page 149 of the PHB list.

So the question that popped into my demented mind is, "Why not pick up the Weapon Master Feat at first level for a Arcane Cleric (since you get another ASI/Feat at level four - a "mere" 2,700 EXP) to kick start, provide a worst case melee ability, and/or allow some background/RP options for the character?

Leaving out stereotypical class optimizing is this just some fun flavor with potential usefulness or a trap option?

Need to shave before church, looking forward to reading any responses when I return.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Why do you want your Arcana Cleric to have this many Finesse weapons?

Now, for the question "does it have potential usefulness?", well, if your Cleric has low STR and high DEX it would help them be better in melee, but it's a pretty big cost for the benefits still.

[smcmike]

First, I noticed that only one Thrown Weapon has the Finesse quality - Dart. On PHB page 147 it ralks about "Finesse" and "Thrown" and "Ranged" weapons. Dart seems to be the only Ranged with both Finesse and Ranged properties! The question comes to mind, "Why only that one?" Monks?

Dagger is finesse and thrown also.

[Millstone85]

Dagger is finesse and thrown also.But it is not ranged.

It matters if something else refers to a ranged weapon.

Like the difference between a ranged weapon attack and a ranged-weapon attack. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/634376982612971520)

So intuitive.

[ZorroGames]

Dagger is finesse and thrown also.

Technically correct but it is categorized as a melee weapon, not a ranged weapon. Another D&D "anomaly" to add to the list. No other thrown weapons are considered "Simple/Martial Ranged Weapons" on page 149. Again, another "Why/Anomaly" of the game.

[smcmike]

Sorry, misread the initial post. You guys are right, it's weird.

Does finesse have the opposite of its normal function with Dart, making it the only ranged weapon you can use with strength?

[Millstone85]

Sorry, misread the initial post. You guys are right, it's weird.

Does finesse have the opposite of its normal function with Dart, making it the only ranged weapon you can use with strength?I believe so, yes.

Although someone could consider the net, a martial ranged weapon with the thrown property, and then quote this...
For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead. to make an argument for Strenght.

I believe it is an error, but it is there.

[Findulidas]

To be fair many of the 5e weapon distinctions make little to no sense so many dm's houserule stuff lile this if you ask nicely and make a good case.

[Tanarii]

Sorry, misread the initial post. You guys are right, it's weird.

Does finesse have the opposite of its normal function with Dart, making it the only ranged weapon you can use with strength?
That's exactly why it's there.

Thrown only lets you use Str for the ranged attack for Melee weapons with the Thrown property. It doesn't do it for Ranged weapons with the thrown property.

Finesse lets you attack with Dexterity or Strength. Regardless of weapon type.

[Foxhound438]

So I feel like it's not a terrible option to pick up, but it's far from the best. You still get daggers from simple weapons if you do end up fighting in melee, and regardless of what weapon you use your Arcane cleric can boost that with a SCAG cantrip if you picked one up. The damage difference at that point is pretty small, since those add a d8 at level 5, and then at level 8 you get wis mod added in too. if you didn't grab a SCAG cantrip you're going to be sacred flame'ing or better regardless of whether they're next to you. You might even opt for shocking grasp if you aren't building around having a high con mod.

I'm personally a fan of not taking SCAG cantrips for arcane clerics and instead picking up something like acid splash and chill touch, so at that point you're better off picking up war caster or resilient: con to boost your concentration on things like bless or banishment.

[Vorpalchicken]

Irrelevant to your build but being a ranged finesse weapon makes a dart the only weapon that can use strength and Sharpshooter. And Archery style.
I also second that taking Weapon Master just to slightly improve a scag cantrip is pretty underwhelming. A dagger is probably fine.

[ZorroGames]

Yeah, my brain locked up when I started thinking about this.

Thrown =/= Ranged?

When to use ST and When to use DE was simple before I started trying to make sense of all this.

Sigh, WOTC, what were you thinking?

[Tanarii]

The problem you're running into is Ranged attack != ranged weapon. And vice versa.

Melee weapons with ranges and the thrown property must use their normal attack ability to make a ranged attack, per the thrown property. So Str if they don't have finesse property, Str or Dex if they do have finesse property.

Ranged weapons with ranges use their Dex to make a ranged attack. Thrown property doesn't change that. (Edit: it does tell you that the weapon is thrown as part of the attack though.) Finesse property, does, you can use Str or Dex to attack with a ranged & finesse weapon as a ranged attack.

[hymer]

Melee weapons with ranges and the thrown property must use their normal attack ability to make a ranged attack, per the thrown property. So Str if they don't have finesse property, Str or Dex if they do have finesse property.

It doesn't help that hurling a hand axe is given as a PHB example given of a ranged attack.

[greenstone]

Thrown =/= Ranged?

That's because weapon classes and weapon tags and attack types aren't well distinguished.

On the weapon table, weapons are classed as either melee weapons (use STR unless it has the finesse tag) or ranged weapons (use DEX unless it has the finesse tag).

The finesse tag means you can use your choice of STR or DEX.

Weapons that can be used at range have either the thrown tag (you use your body to move the weapon) or the ammunition tag (you use a launcher to move the weapon).

Hitting a target with a held weapon is a melee weapon attack, regardless of the class of weapon. An unarmed attack or a natural weapon attack (claws, hooves, horns, teeth) is still considered to be a melee weapon attack, even though it doesn't involve an actual weapon.

Hitting a target at range is a ranged weapon attack, regardless of the class of weapon.

The rules are always quite specific about distinguishing an "attack with a melee weapon" (e.g. various feats) from a "melee weapon attack" (e.g. Divine Smite).

There are a total of four attack types, because there is also melee spell attack and ranged spell attack.

[Chugger]

To be fair many of the 5e weapon distinctions make little to no sense so many dm's houserule stuff lile this if you ask nicely and make a good case.

Amen. It's a part of the phb that's really not clear and a mess.

[Zalabim]

To be most helpful, there are some martial ranged weapons to consider as well, rather than just taking all the finesse weapons. Nets have a special property. Longbows have the greatest range. Heavy Crossbows have the largest damage die available with Dexterity. You might want to take any or all of those along with Rapiers (highest melee damage die with Dex) or Scimitars (Slashing damage with Dex).


But it is not ranged.

It matters if something else refers to a ranged weapon.

Like the difference between a ranged weapon attack and a ranged-weapon attack. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/634376982612971520)

So intuitive.
It's not quite so bad since the book, to my knowledge, always says either ranged weapon attack or attack with a ranged weapon, never ranged-weapon attack as JC's example.

I believe it is an error, but it is there.
The error, I think, is that it should start "For ranged attacks with weapons," And I think the part about the hand axe should be understood descriptively rather than prescriptively. Like saying weapons with the finesse property can use either Str or Dex. It's just a thing that can happen. If I really wanted to make it clearer, I'd add a final line saying "See the equipment chapter for more details."

Weapons that can be used at range have either the thrown tag (you use your body to move the weapon) or the ammunition tag (you use a launcher to move the weapon).
Technically, on the table the launcher is the weapon and it launches ammunition. This is what I always try to explain when someone suggests giving Darts the Ammunition property. Arrows don't have the Ammunition property, they just are ammunition. Arrows aren't even on the Weapon table anyway.

[greenstone]

Technically, on the table the launcher is the weapon and it launches ammunition. This is what I always try to explain when someone suggests giving Darts the Ammunition property. Arrows don't have the Ammunition property, they just are ammunition. Arrows aren't even on the Weapon table anyway.
I was trying to go for parallel form and couldn't quite make it work. :smallannoyed:

"Thrown" means your body makes the dangerous bit move. "Ammunition" means a launcher does it.

[Citan]

Irrelevant to your build but being a ranged finesse weapon makes a dart the only weapon that can use strength and Sharpshooter. And Archery style.
I also second that taking Weapon Master just to slightly improve a scag cantrip is pretty underwhelming. A dagger is probably fine.
I'm sorry but it's wrong. ;)
Or rather, 1/3 wrong. ^^
Only the last bullet point of Sharpshooter (-5+10) requires attacks to be "made with a ranged weapon". Other points just require "ranged weapon attacks". So you can enjoy ignoring covers and long range penalty with any thrown weapon. :)

[ZorroGames]

I'm sorry but it's wrong. ;)
Or rather, 1/3 wrong. ^^
Only the last bullet point of Sharpshooter (-5+10) requires attacks to be "made with a ranged weapon". Other points just require "ranged weapon attacks". So you can enjoy ignoring covers and long range penalty with any thrown weapon. :)

Really? I am going to stealthily ask my AL DM some leading questions next Tuesday.

[Citan]

Really? I am going to stealthily ask my AL DM some leading questions next Tuesday.
Yeah, I'm hundred percent sure about it. ;)

That's what makes it still valuable to any martial usually relying on STR melee weapons and has no magical option like ranged cantrips. :)
It's just rare for a heavy melee martial to take it because usually in a party other people can compensate for someone's lack of range.