[3.5] Would you allow this character at your table?

[fallensavior]

Race: Dragonborn Goliath
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class: 1 Ex Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian/2 Overwhelming Attack Style Monk/1 Cloistered Cleric/2 Psychic Warrior/6 Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Character level 12, 12 HD+1 LA buyoff)

Stats:......... (25 pt build)
Strength...........18 (+3 level ups, +2 enhancement, +2 size) =25
Dexterity...........10
Constitution......18
Intelligence.......13
Wisdom.............10 (+1 enhancement) =11
Charisma...........8

HP: 121
AC: 24 = 10 base + 7 armor+ 8 shield + 0 dex + (-1) size + (-1) flaw +1 haste (+4 vs traps) (Touch = 17)
Fort: 22 = 15+4+3
Reflex 9 = 5+0+3+1 (+4 vs traps)
Will 10 = 7+0+3

Feat Progression:
(Level order BMMCPPFFFFFF)
Level 1 : Improved Shield Bash
Level 1(F) Combat Expertise (Flaw=Vulnerable)
Level 1(F) Improved Trip (Flaw=Shaky)
Level 2(M1) Power Attack
Level 3(M2) Improved Bull Rush
Level 3 : Knockback (Races of Stone)
Level 4(C1) Weapon Focus Spiked Shield (War domain)
Level 4(C1) Travel Devotion (Travel Domain)(Complete Champion)(60ft move as swift action 4/day)
Level 4(C1) Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain)(Complete Champion)(bonus to hit/damage w/ knowledge roll)
Level 5(P1) Shield Charge (Complete Warrior)(Free trip attempt following any hit with a shield on a charge)
Level 6(P2) Shield Specialization (PHB2)(+1 shield AC)
Level 6 : Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)(Jump 10 ft on a charge to triple PA bonus damage w/ a 2h weapon)
Level 7(F1) Shield Ward (PHB2)(Add shield bonus to touch AC and to resist bullrush, grapple, disarm, trip, overrun)
Level 8(F2) Dungeoncrash (Dungeonscape)(+2 save/ac vs traps, +5 to break stuff, 4d6+2xStr damage on bullrush into solid object)
Level 9 : Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)(Power Attack w/ AC penalty instead of to hit penalty)
Level 10(F4) Aligned Strike (Complete Champion)
Level 12(F6) Improved Dungeoncrash (Dungeonscape)(+4 save/ac vs traps, +10 to break stuff, 8d6+3xStr damage on bullrush into solid object)
Level 12 : Hover (MM)

Gear:
+5 Valorous Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing (42k) (Unapproachable East)(double damage on a charge)
+3 Mithril Chain Shirt (10k)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9k)
Boots of Speed (12k) (Haste 10 rounds/day)
+1 Periapt of Wisdom (1k)
+2 Gauntlets of Str (4k)
Night Stick (+4 turn undeads)

Spell/Powers/Abilities:
Entropic Warding spell (20% miss chance vs ranged)
Magic Weapon spell
Expansion power (+1 size)
Empty Mind power (reactive +2 Will)
Pounce ability (Complete Champion)(Full attack on charge)
Dragonborn Wings (Races of the Dragon)(Fly speed 30ft, average maneuverability)
Dragonborn dive attack (Only when wielding a piercing weapon. Minimum 30 ft move & 10 ft descent. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage.)

Single Power Attack at -1, Two-handed shield: +19 to hit, 4d6+13 plus knockback (+21 opposed str, plus an additional 8d6+21 damage against a solid object) (27+49 avg damage)

Shield Charging Diving Pounce Power Attack at -10: +21/21/16 to hit, 3x(4d6+11 weapon damage)+6x10 (PA damage). Each hit allows a Trip attempt at +19 opposed str and a bonus attack if they fall. Each hit also allows a bullrush attempt at +33 opposed str for an additional 8d6+21 damage against a solid object. (135+49 avg damage per)

[Zombulian]

Race: Dragonborn Goliath
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class: 1 Ex Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian/2 Overwhelming Attack Style Monk/1 Cloistered Cleric/2 Psychic Warrior/6 Dungeoncrasher Fighter (Character level 12, 12 HD+1 LA buyoff)

Stats:......... (25 pt build)
Strength...........18 (+3 level ups, +2 enhancement, +2 size) =25
Dexterity...........10
Constitution......18
Intelligence.......13
Wisdom.............10 (+1 enhancement) =11
Charisma...........8

HP: 121
AC: 24 = 10 base + 7 armor+ 8 shield + 0 dex + (-1) size + (-1) flaw +1 haste (+4 vs traps) (Touch = 17)
Fort: 22 = 15+4+3
Reflex 9 = 5+0+3+1 (+4 vs traps)
Will 10 = 7+0+3

Feat Progression:
(Level order BMMCPPFFFFFF)
Level 1 : Improved Shield Bash
Level 1(F) Combat Expertise (Flaw=Vulnerable)
Level 1(F) Improved Trip (Flaw=Shaky)
Level 2(M1) Power Attack
Level 3(M2) Improved Bull Rush
Level 3 : Knockback (Races of Stone)
Level 4(C1) Weapon Focus Spiked Shield (War domain)
Level 4(C1) Travel Devotion (Travel Domain)(Complete Champion)(60ft move as swift action 4/day)
Level 4(C1) Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain)(Complete Champion)(bonus to hit/damage w/ knowledge roll)
Level 5(P1) Shield Charge (Complete Warrior)(Free trip attempt following any hit with a shield on a charge)
Level 6(P2) Shield Specialization (PHB2)(+1 shield AC)
Level 6 : Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)(Jump 10 ft on a charge to triple PA bonus damage w/ a 2h weapon)
Level 7(F1) Shield Ward (PHB2)(Add shield bonus to touch AC and to resist bullrush, grapple, disarm, trip, overrun)
Level 8(F2) Dungeoncrash (Dungeonscape)(+2 save/ac vs traps, +5 to break stuff, 4d6+2xStr damage on bullrush into solid object)
Level 9 : Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)(Power Attack w/ AC penalty instead of to hit penalty)
Level 10(F4) Aligned Strike (Complete Champion)
Level 12(F6) Improved Dungeoncrash (Dungeonscape)(+4 save/ac vs traps, +10 to break stuff, 8d6+3xStr damage on bullrush into solid object)
Level 12 : Hover (MM)

Gear:
+5 Valorous Heavy Steel Shield of Bashing (42k) (Unapproachable East)(double damage on a charge)
+3 Mithril Chain Shirt (10k)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9k)
Boots of Speed (12k) (Haste 10 rounds/day)
+1 Periapt of Wisdom (1k)
+2 Gauntlets of Str (4k)
Night Stick (+4 turn undeads)

Spell/Powers/Abilities:
Entropic Warding spell (20% miss chance vs ranged)
Magic Weapon spell
Expansion power (+1 size)
Empty Mind power (reactive +2 Will)
Pounce ability (Complete Champion)(Full attack on charge)
Dragonborn Wings (Races of the Dragon)(Fly speed 30ft, average maneuverability)
Dragonborn dive attack (Only when wielding a piercing weapon. Minimum 30 ft move & 10 ft descent. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage.)

Single Power Attack at -1, Two-handed shield: +19 to hit, 4d6+13 plus knockback (+21 opposed str, plus an additional 8d6+21 damage against a solid object) (27+49 avg damage)

Shield Charging Diving Pounce Power Attack at -10: +21/21/16 to hit, 3x(4d6+11 weapon damage)+6x10 (PA damage). Each hit allows a Trip attempt at +19 opposed str and a bonus attack if they fall. Each hit also allows a bullrush attempt at +33 opposed str for an additional 8d6+21 damage against a solid object. (135+49 avg damage per)

Monk always has to be Lawful and Barbarian always has to be Chaotic. You ok with losing Rage?
Otherwise, I don't see why I wouldn't allow this. Seems like a pretty run of the mill charger build but uses Shield Bash and Trip which is neat.

[zlefin]

yes; as long as it fits the overall optimization level of the party, and no other issues come up.
at laest I don't see anything glaringly problematic.

[fallensavior]

Monk always has to be Lawful and Barbarian always has to be Chaotic. You ok with losing Rage?

Yeah, it's an Ex-Barbarian.

[flappeercraft]

Doesn't seem too broken to me

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, it's an Ex-Barbarian.

imho better try to start as monk and than switch to barbarian.
Ex-monk doesn't loose any abilities, only the option to take later lvls in monk.

[Telonius]

For that matter, Cloistered Cleric might do better to start, if there aren't any alignment issues. More skill points from x4.

[fallensavior]

imho better try to start as monk and than switch to barbarian.
Ex-monk doesn't loose any abilities, only the option to take later lvls in monk.


For that matter, Cloistered Cleric might do better to start, if there aren't any alignment issues. More skill points from x4.

Those are good points, thanks. I wanted to progress from barbarian to monk to cleric for story reasons, though.

[Pleh]

imho better try to start as monk and than switch to barbarian.
Ex-monk doesn't loose any abilities, only the option to take later lvls in monk.

Worth mentioning there's a chaos monk in a dragon mag (don't have the issue # as I'm afb).

[Remuko]

Yes? If anything I think its too weak. 25 point buy makes me want to cry (i tend to play by 40 if i use PB). Whats the point of the mythril chain shirt if you have no dex to take advantage of? Seems a fine character but as I just said id have them use higher PB and gets some dex and maybe a little more int.

[Crake]

You can't put valourous on a shield, it's a weapon ability. You could put it on weapon spikes, but that would cost the same as a weapon. Note the bashing special ability does let it count as a +1 weapon when bashing, but that doesn't allow it to have valorous added to it, because it's only treated that way while bashing.

[Zanos]

I generally am not a fan of builds that deal more damage per round than any existing monster has in hitpoints, but I think I'm in the minority on the forums as someone who thinks doing all of the damage can be disruptive.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, that character is certainly inviting rocket tag upon himself. Dealing close to 180 damage per hit is, well, a good deal beyond the scope of the vast majority of play.

Something is clearly off when one can Greater Cleave Balors.

[Crake]

Well, that character is certainly inviting rocket tag upon himself. Dealing close to 180 damage per hit is, well, a good deal beyond the scope of the vast majority of play.

Something is clearly off when one can Greater Cleave Balors.

To be fair, half of his extra damage is coming from an illegal item, his shield. Clearly the intent was to get a +5 valorous weapon for significantly cheaper than it should be, but what OP didn't take into account is that the enhancement bonus from a shield doesn't apply to shield bashes, nor, as I said previously, can you enchant a shield with valorous, a weapon special ability, that's what shield spikes are for.

Also, +1 ability score items are fairly cheesy.

[rel]

Depends on the game.

I've run games where playing optimised builds was more or less the point. The posted build seems fine for that sort of game.

These days I tend to run games with a specific theme and the posted build probably wouldn't match the theme and tone of said games.

[Yogibear41]

Ditto to what was already said about the shield, but that's easily fixed. I must admit I have never been a huge fan of dipping into several classes for 1 or 2 levels
( 1 or 2 is fine but when you are level 12 with 5+ classes it just seems weird to me) granted nothing wrong with it in the rules. If I were the DM I probably wouldn't let you choose to bullrush or trip someone with each attack seems to me the intent of those feats were to do one of the other. Having the War Domain, with both Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion seems a bit clunky to me as well, I guess it is possible to follow a deity with all three of those domains though. I think leap attack should only work on the first attack when you pounce to since the extra damage is from the force you get from the leap in the first strike, but that's just my opinion.

[Sleven]

Melee characters are typically mince-meat for a competent DM, and utterly useless in campaigns that don't revolve around monster encounters, so I see nothing wrong with this (aside from the shield enchantment issue everyone has already pointed out). I sincerely hope your DM intends to work with you to keep your character involved outside of combat.


I generally am not a fan of builds that deal more damage per round than any existing monster has in hitpoints, but I think I'm in the minority on the forums as someone who thinks doing all of the damage can be disruptive.

I find this outlook discouraging. Especially when the only thing a fighter-type character can really optimize for is combat, while Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Psions, etc. are busy wielding world altering power to solve every encounter (or outright replace the fighter). Their impact on the game is far more disruptive. The fighters out there have to have something they're good at. At least in the games I typically play in, it seems like a fighter's job is 90% waiting for a fight to happen or trying to leverage their backstory to eek out any level of involvement. Not to mention how easy it is for a DM to shut down a fighter-type (and a melee fighter-type at that).

I'm curious how you prefer to see this handled? Have everyone play casters?

[Zanos]

I find this outlook discouraging. Especially when the only thing a fighter-type character can really optimize for is combat, while Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Psions, etc. are busy wielding world altering power to solve every encounter (or outright replace the fighter). Their impact on the game is far more disruptive. The fighters out there have to have something they're good at. At least in the games I typically play in, it seems like a fighter's job is 90% waiting for a fight to happen or trying to leverage their backstory to eek out any level of involvement. Not to mention how easy it is for a DM to shut down a fighter-type (and a melee fighter-type at that).

I'm curious how you prefer to see this handled? Have everyone play casters?
This forum almost always suggests people play support casters, in such a way that they are conducive to buffing their team and isolating enemies so they can dispatch them. It's probably one of the most "team player" characters. It's strong, but it doesn't force the DM to completely redesign encounters to shut down a single overpowering strategy and lets everyone in the group contribute. Dealing 400 damage every round at level 10 does force the DM to play against a single character, and prevents any amount of damage other than "it dies" from contributing. And to clarify casters can optimize for damage too, combat != damage, and fighters should be replaced with ToB classes.

[StriderITP]

It's a charge focused build with some tripping added to it. Just make it hard for him to get a charge off and your damage problem is solved. Use uneven terrain, or add obstacles that would seem fitting for the environment. His AC is also pitiful for level 12, so if you ping at him enough he'll be playing more carefully.

Now for the whole Valorous thing. Look here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shields


Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

As with armor, special abilities built into the shield add to the market value in the form of additions to the bonus of the shield, although they do not improve AC. A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A shield with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus

Bolding mine. You can have a valorous shield, it'll just cost more. And it looks like that was actually figured into the price the OP posted, even though it's still a little off (it's 44k, not 42k).

[Sleven]

It's a charge focused build with some tripping added to it. Just make it hard for him to get a charge off and your damage problem is solved. Use uneven terrain, or add obstacles that would seem fitting for the environment. His AC is also pitiful for level 12, so if you ping at him enough he'll be playing more carefully.

Now for the whole Valorous thing. Look here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shields



Bolding mine. You can have a valorous shield, it'll just cost more. And it looks like that was actually figured into the price the OP posted, even though it's still a little off (it's 44k, not 42k).

Nice catch.


This forum almost always suggests people play support casters, in such a way that they are conducive to buffing their team and isolating enemies so they can dispatch them. It's probably one of the most "team player" characters. It's strong, but it doesn't force the DM to completely redesign encounters to shut down a single overpowering strategy and lets everyone in the group contribute. Dealing 400 damage every round at level 10 does force the DM to play against a single character, and prevents any amount of damage other than "it dies" from contributing. And to clarify casters can optimize for damage too, combat != damage, and fighters should be replaced with ToB classes.

Maybe I'm speaking for myself here, but if I'm playing a fighter or a rogue (or whatever) and see that all my success/power comes from the Wizard using a Grease spell or casting Enlarge Person on me, I immediately recognize that I'm not really doing squat. Party play is really important, but so is autonomy in feeling like your character can be successful in the area they're supposed to be and fill their own shoes.

I'm all too aware that casters can fulfill the damage fantasy without really trying, but that really makes my point even more: casters are the disruptive archetype. Don't get me wrong, as someone who's played Sorcerers for years I don't mind casters in the slightest, but as both a player and DM I do try my best to make sure a fighter is having fun fulfilling whatever fantasy they want to. If that means one-shotting monsters, that's fine. In my experience, one of the best ways to allow them their day in the sun is to treat them like the Hulk or the party leader (so at least there's the illusion that they're playing a valuable character).

Besides, as I said before, a very small percentage of encounters in the campaigns I'm used to playing in even involve an initiative roll. It's more roleplay, political situations, searching for a lost artifact, solving a puzzle, being social, information gathering, preparing, planning, and other tasks that are ill-suited to fighters. It's not until all of that's done that maybe 20% of the campaign involves a fight-based encounter.

As for ToB, the unfortunate truth is that not much of it is applicable outside of combat. Factotum is a much better class when it comes to bridging the gap (and even they have spellcasting).

[Rebel7284]

Besides, as I said before, a very small percentage of encounters in the campaigns I'm used to playing in even involve an initiative roll.

I think this is the core of the question. If the game is a hack and slash type of game with lots of combats in a day against trippable opponents and nothing else going on, your character may be overpowered. If it's a more immersive world with other problems being commonplace, than this character is probably much more appropriate.

Also, big numbers may seem scary to an inexperienced DM and even some experienced DMs, so running it past them is important.

[fallensavior]

To be fair, half of his extra damage is coming from an illegal item, his shield. Clearly the intent was to get a +5 valorous weapon for significantly cheaper than it should be, but what OP didn't take into account is that the enhancement bonus from a shield doesn't apply to shield bashes, nor, as I said previously, can you enchant a shield with valorous, a weapon special ability, that's what shield spikes are for.


No, the +5 is not counted in the to hit/damage calculations, I counted it as a +1 weapon. Also, the Valorous is enchanted separately, though a strict reading reading of Bashing would indicate adding Valorous costs 2k more gp than I listed.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm curious which war deity has the spiked shield as his favored weapon... and also has the travel domain?

[Nifft]

I'm curious which war deity has the spiked shield as his favored weapon... and also has the travel domain?

:elan: "Maybe you could worship a concept?"

:nale: "Specifically, the concept of winning."

[The Glyphstone]

While I don't have any objections to an Ubercharger build in principle, I can't really call this a 'character' right now. It's a mechanical skeleton, and one that has made some mildly questionable rules-calls. Mechanical power I can compensate for on the GM side of the screen, but I need an actual character - one with a name, personality, backstory, goals, etc. - before I can let it into a game I run.

[Buufreak]

Sure wouldn't. Based solely on it not being an original idea.

[Sagetim]

While I don't have any objections to an Ubercharger build in principle, I can't really call this a 'character' right now. It's a mechanical skeleton, and one that has made some mildly questionable rules-calls. Mechanical power I can compensate for on the GM side of the screen, but I need an actual character - one with a name, personality, backstory, goals, etc. - before I can let it into a game I run.

This pretty much sums up my reaction. It seems like a really strange build especially since it requires a drastic alignment shift at low level to pull off, and my own assumption would be that if you're the kind of person who is undergoing such a dramatic change in attitude, you would probably stick with the new thing you're doing pretty solidly....so, barbarian to monk? okay, but I don't see why you would only take one or two levels of monk from an in character, or storytelling perspective. Shifting from monk to religious devotion can make sense, but going from there to psychic warrior seems like an odd hop. And dropping all of that to finish out the build with fighter levels just seems weird.

Now, this character might well have a very rich story, and may work for a 'start from level 1 and build your character in reaction to the campaign as it goes on' kind of game. But if I told you to make a level 12 character and have them ready to go for a game I would be running, I would probably take this character sheet, roll it up, and bap you a little with it. Either because the build is so all over the place and scatterbrained, or because the interesting story of how the character wound up with such strange and disparate classes comprising their build would be something we, as a group, don't really get to experience along the way. Instead we just have some guy after so many interesting things have already happened to him, and the strange and interesting part of his build may well be over with.

Now, Zanos does bring up a good point about damage. Generally speaking, I don't have an issue with players doing buckets of damage with their characters in the games I run. I'll just ramp up the challenges in response, award them xp for the CR's of things they fight*, and they'll level faster than normal and I won't really be bothered by it. That's because I plan out about one session's worth of stuff at a time, and have some vague strands for where things go from there and let the players and their actions determine how and where things go. But 400 damage in a turn is ridiculous. And while there are ways to shut down charging (like bad terrain, grease effects, and so on), the point I'm trying to make is that I Shouldn't Have To Shut You Down.

If you don't want a combat focused game, I'm fine with that. But things start to be over optimized when equal CR opponents from the monster manual are all trivial. And while I'm fine with building custom monsters and challenges for players in games I run, I'm fine with it when I am a voluntary participant in that decision. Like when I choose to run a game where everyone is playing a Path of War class, I have volunteered to customize monsters to make sure they fit the capabilities of the party. But if I'm running a regular game, I should not Have to customize every monster in every encounter just to work around a build that is descending from the lofty realms of Theoretical Optimization to deign to come and interact with the more sensible realm of rules.

And that's what this build feels like, to me. It feels like you're assigning homework to me as a DM. And as a DM, I have enough other crap to do. Now, if I told you to make some TO ubercharger build and bring it into play, that's a different story. I'd have been asking for it then.

*In addition to xp I normally award for things, like 'good session' , 'yes, yes, roleplay your characters', and 'Quest XP'.

TLDR- This build doesn't feel like a character, it feels like homework for the DM.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm curious which war deity has the spiked shield as his favored weapon... and also has the travel domain?


:elan: "Maybe you could worship a concept?"

:nale: "Specifically, the concept of winning."

I'm reasonably certain that abstract concepts don't have a favored weapon........ :smallsigh:

[John Longarrow]

Looks like a build I've seen on tabletop. Player dropped out before they got to the dragon fight, so I never did get to see what would happen when he faced something he couldn't one shot that would one shot him for running up to it.

As a build, this guy isn't going to do well against anything using ranged combat. Him flying up to face a pair of manticors may result in his spike riddled carcass falling from the sky. Even with entropic warding he's really limited when the enemy doesn't stay put to get hit. Even worse if they have anything up that can negate his attack with a good miss chance.

In all, I'd be really really really careful with a build like this. It is all about "I charge up and hit" so you will have a massive penalty facing multiple opponents.

[Goaty14]

Shaky is not an appropriate flaw;

As per the entry in the Srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)

"You take a -2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls."

This build doesn't even own a ranged weapon, therefore he/she/it doesn't have any sort of argument as to how this is a bad thing for his character to have this

He/she/it should take Noncombatant instead, which is just like shaky, except it applies to melee attack rolls.

[Zanos]

That's under the metagame analysis for creating new flaws, not for using the ones that already exist.

[Goaty14]

That's under the metagame analysis for creating new flaws, not for using the ones that already exist.

Yes it is.

Also how is he tripping with a shield?
Shield Charge (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/shield-charge--2582/index.html) (CW) allows you to make a free trip attack after any charge with a shield equipped. Except by RAW, it doesn't state that you can make the trip with the shield.

EDIT: Noncombatant, Unreactive, Slow, or Feeble would be the other flaws I'd allow him/her/it, because a trip is a str check iirc.

[Gruftzwerg]

As a build, this guy isn't going to do well against anything using ranged combat. Him flying up to face a pair of manticors may result in his spike riddled carcass falling from the sky. Even with entropic warding he's really limited when the enemy doesn't stay put to get hit. Even worse if they have anything up that can negate his attack with a good miss chance.

In all, I'd be really really really careful with a build like this. It is all about "I charge up and hit" so you will have a massive penalty facing multiple opponents.

You just need to work/build/equip to compensate these weaknesses and you are fine. You shouldn't build an ubercharger like you role-play one (straightforward aggressive/dumb ^^ ) and put more thoughts into his weak spots:

1. Mobility
You'll need extra movement speed, fly and short range teleports to get to your target. A Drunken Master 2 dip lets you even change directions while charging (there are other ways too, but only Stagger from DM2 is always ready).

2. Defenses against pointy Hat guys
Death Ward, Mind Blank & True Sight are your best friend. Get the effects on magic items. Especially True Sight will deal with nasty illusions and misschances.

3. Make sure you hit
True Sight was already mentioned, you have also to deal with in

4. Ring of Nine Lives
9 charges that heal you when you drop below 0 and you can expend a charge once a day to auto-success a failed save (!).

5. (crafted) Contingency Spells
for Resurrection and other last Trump-card options once you can effort it. (e.g. Body outside Body)

6. Whirlwind (weapon enchantment)
3x day is in most campaigns enough to deal with bigger packs of enemies.


If you sole invest just into dmg without covering any other important build points (ignoring misschances, mobility, defenses..), you shouldn't wounder about struggling against that kind of stuff..

[Buufreak]

You just need to work/build/equip to compensate these weaknesses and you are fine.

And I'm going to stop you right there. If a build needs equipment to be competent, the build isn't competent to begin with. What is stopping a commoner 20 from doing the same thing? This is exactly why any build submitted into any local contest that is equipment dependent is hit hard and fast, in originality, in elegance, and in power, because needing specific items to come online is none of these things.

[Gnaeus]

And I'm going to stop you right there. If a build needs equipment to be competent, the build isn't competent to begin with. What is stopping a commoner 20 from doing the same thing? This is exactly why any build submitted into any local contest that is equipment dependent is hit hard and fast, in originality, in elegance, and in power, because needing specific items to come online is none of these things.

Yes and no. I agree that I would fault it in abstract. And that is why classes like fighter and barbarian live in T4-5 land while things like TOB are T3, even if a barbarian can outdamage them. You can't guarantee specific gear across games.

But this is built for a specific game, in which the player likely has a better idea than we do whether he will get all, most or none of his preferred gear. Building a character around the conditions of the game you are playing isn't incompetent.

[Zanos]

And I'm going to stop you right there. If a build needs equipment to be competent, the build isn't competent to begin with.
There is a gradient. Most builds need at least some items to be effective. A warblade that needs a fly item isn't incompetent.

If your build is 20 staves that you UMD, then yeah. Build is dumb.

[fallensavior]

I'm curious which war deity has the spiked shield as his favored weapon... and also has the travel domain?

That would be a not-fully-described and/or homebrewed lesser aspect of Bahamut.


Sure wouldn't. Based solely on it not being an original idea.

...Go on? I've seen generic uberchargers before, I haven't seen one like this.


Shaky is not an appropriate flaw;

As per the entry in the Srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)

"You take a -2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls."

This build doesn't even own a ranged weapon, therefore he/she/it doesn't have any sort of argument as to how this is a bad thing for his character to have this

He/she/it should take Noncombatant instead, which is just like shaky, except it applies to melee attack rolls.

Yeah, some people play it that way.


Yes it is.

Also how is he tripping with a shield?
Shield Charge (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/shield-charge--2582/index.html) (CW) allows you to make a free trip attack after any charge with a shield equipped. Except by RAW, it doesn't state that you can make the trip with the shield.

It seems RAI to me that Shield Charge is tripping with the shield. You can just as easily say the trips are made unarmed without affecting the build. I don't see how it makes any difference, it doesn't even change the bonus on the opposed roll.


And I'm going to stop you right there. If a build needs equipment to be competent, the build isn't competent to begin with. What is stopping a commoner 20 from doing the same thing? This is exactly why any build submitted into any local contest that is equipment dependent is hit hard and fast, in originality, in elegance, and in power, because needing specific items to come online is none of these things.

The only classes that don't really need gear are Druid and Wizard, I think. Sure, it makes them even more powerful, but I wouldn't say that it is necessary for competence.

[Axel_690]

I thought you couldn't take hover unless you had good maneuverability. Am I mistaken?

Also, I see no problems with this character. It seems pretty tame compared to some of the characters I've played as/with in games.

[fallensavior]

I thought you couldn't take hover unless you had good maneuverability. Am I mistaken?

Yes, the prereq is simply a fly speed.

[icefractal]

Looks basically fine. I assume this would come with a name, personality, etc if you were going to play it. To nitpick though:
1) A +1 Wisdom item is non-standard.
2) Why do you even have a +1 Wisdom item? Your Wisdom is an even number!

Re: Shaky - Anyone can throw something, and a warrior being restricted to melee only is pretty disadvantageous, so I'd call that a legit flaw. In fact, I would swap Shaky to something else and get Brutal Throw (and maybe those bracers that create +1 [force] javelins). Lets you kick at least a moderate amount of ass when the opponent is unreachable, instead of sitting there looking dumb.

[John Longarrow]

You just need to work/build/equip to compensate these weaknesses and you are fine. You shouldn't build an ubercharger like you role-play one (straightforward aggressive/dumb ^^ ) and put more thoughts into his weak spots:

1. Mobility
You'll need extra movement speed, fly and short range teleports to get to your target. A Drunken Master 2 dip lets you even change directions while charging (there are other ways too, but only Stagger from DM2 is always ready).

2. Defenses against pointy Hat guys
Death Ward, Mind Blank & True Sight are your best friend. Get the effects on magic items. Especially True Sight will deal with nasty illusions and misschances.

3. Make sure you hit
True Sight was already mentioned, you have also to deal with in

4. Ring of Nine Lives
9 charges that heal you when you drop below 0 and you can expend a charge once a day to auto-success a failed save (!).

5. (crafted) Contingency Spells
for Resurrection and other last Trump-card options once you can effort it. (e.g. Body outside Body)

6. Whirlwind (weapon enchantment)
3x day is in most campaigns enough to deal with bigger packs of enemies.


If you sole invest just into dmg without covering any other important build points (ignoring misschances, mobility, defenses..), you shouldn't wounder about struggling against that kind of stuff..

Were I you I'd double check his post. NONE of that is included and most of it would require a far higher level than the OP is starting at to cover well.. And at those levels your running into far more dangerous stuff than a pair of manticores....

Your reply effectively is saying "Yea, don't play the 12th level build the OP posted, build up to a 20th level build but still pretend he's lower level".

[Blue Jay]

Race: Dragonborn Goliath

I'd probably allow a character like this, but I see two kinks in the build.

Dragonborn lose all their previous racial traits and abilities, except RHD, ability-score bonuses, movement modes, languages and favored classes. So, you won't get to keep Powerful Build.
I'm a little iffy on your use of Leap Attack in this build, too. There aren't any specific rules against making a Jump check in mid-flight, but I think it's an appropriate common-sense ruling to say you can't do that. And, I don't think you followed the multiplication rules on your PA damage: 2x damage from two-handed PA, and 3x damage from Leap Attack would combine to give 4x PA damage, not 6x.

I also have some logic problems with the concept of flying at double speed, slamming someone into a solid object, and stopping on a dime afterward, all with no risks of any kind for yourself during the whole process. I'd probably house-rule in some restrictions about using the Hover feat after a dive attack, and require a save or check of some kind to avoid a wipeout during complex aerial maneuvers like this.

[Gruftzwerg]

Were I you I'd double check his post. NONE of that is included and most of it would require a far higher level than the OP is starting at to cover well.. And at those levels your running into far more dangerous stuff than a pair of manticores....

Your reply effectively is saying "Yea, don't play the 12th level build the OP posted, build up to a 20th level build but still pretend he's lower level".

They start at lvl 12, so I assume they will do at least a few lvlUps in their campaign.
I didn't say that it should be his starting equip. It is more a guideline in what you can invest.
Further, depending on your teammates abilities, you may skip some of the stuff (e.g. party caster casts Death Ward, Mind Blank & True Sight).
The Contingency is more for the endlvl (or if you have a contingency crafter in your team earlier, due to cheaper).

And you should pick stuff fitting your campaign first:

You have to deal often with illusions and misschances? Go for True Sight.
You constantly have big trash pack enemies every day? Go for Whirlwind
Your campaign is full of Death Effects? Go for Death Ward

That's the way you should buy stuff for your melee character on higher lvls. But I know, most melee guys try to invest everything they got into dmg first and later wondering why they can't hit the enemy and need to make a new char every few sessions or need to rely on DM fiat to survive.

While some tables may call it power-gaming, but you don't need to build and equip your character with his low INT score in mind. You are allowed to make better choices than your character is capable off ( hey I'm looking at you Mr. INT:3-6 Half-Ork ;).

While most casters can cover most of their weak points with proper spell selection (and even help their mundane teammates out), the non-caster need either to rely on their caster teammate or on their equip selection. And depending on what you are facing often in your adventures, you adjust your buy priority.

It was never my intention to let a lvl 12 char to start with all the mentioned stuff. If that wasn't obvious, I'm sry.

[fallensavior]

I assume this would come with a name, personality, etc if you were going to play it.

Yes, and a killer back story.


1) A +1 Wisdom item is non-standard.
2) Why do you even have a +1 Wisdom item? Your Wisdom is an even number!

You need at least 11 wisdom to cast 1st level Cleric spells and manifest 1st level Psychic Warrior powers.


Re: Shaky - Anyone can throw something, and a warrior being restricted to melee only is pretty disadvantageous, so I'd call that a legit flaw.

I concur.


In fact, I would swap Shaky to something else and get Brutal Throw (and maybe those bracers that create +1 [force] javelins). Lets you kick at least a moderate amount of ass when the opponent is unreachable, instead of sitting there looking dumb.

That is a good point. I would probably start with a sling and then upgrade if there is a better ranged weapon available to loot.

I wouldn't expect it to come up that often though, when you can activate Haste as a free action, then use Travel Devotion to fly 60 ft as a swift action, then flying charge 120 ft, or swift action 60 ft fly plus flying "run" 240 ft.


Dragonborn lose all their previous racial traits and abilities, except RHD, ability-score bonuses, movement modes, languages and favored classes. So, you won't get to keep Powerful Build.

Actually, Powerful Build is specifically exempted from being lost

Size: You retain your original size. If the original race had powerful build as a racial trait, it is also retained.
on page 10.


I'm a little iffy on your use of Leap Attack in this build, too. There aren't any specific rules against making a Jump check in mid-flight, but I think it's an appropriate common-sense ruling to say you can't do that.

I get where you're coming from on RAW, but I would think the common sense ruling would be to allow it, since saying flying can never count as jumping is kind of like saying a character with Quick Draw can never draw a weapon at normal speed. Missing the forest for the tress. After all, wouldn't you allow a character to make a 60 foot standing leap attack charge, assuming they had the skill check to jump 60 feet? A flying 60 foot charge would be the exact same motion if you start on the ground, right?


And, I don't think you followed the multiplication rules on your PA damage: 2x damage from two-handed PA, and 3x damage from Leap Attack would combine to give 4x PA damage, not 6x.

Those are indeed 4x. The other 2x come from Valorous and Dragonborn Dive. Note that I'm using those additively instead of stacking mutiplicatively so as not to break the "Doubling a double" rule in the PHB. It seems most people intuit the other way though and quadruple 2h PA damage on a 2x crit rather than tripling it though.


I also have some logic problems with the concept of flying at double speed, slamming someone into a solid object, and stopping on a dime afterward, all with no risks of any kind for yourself during the whole process. I'd probably house-rule in some restrictions about using the Hover feat after a dive attack, and require a save or check of some kind to avoid a wipeout during complex aerial maneuvers like this.

This seems more or less reasonable, though the same "you can't stop on a dime" logic should probably be applied to charges in general. I think the game presumes you are transferring that energy into your opponent when you hit them to stop. So maybe some kind of balance check or reflex save on missed charges is in order?

Then again, the "you stop on a dime" bit was probably added for balance, since it is much more powerful if you can charge attack and keep going past them, a la Ride By Attack.

[Blue Jay]

Actually, Powerful Build is specifically exempted from being lost

on page 10.
...
Those are indeed 4x. The other 2x come from Valorous and Dragonborn Dive. Note that I'm not using those additively instead of stacking mutiplicatively so as not to break the "Doubling a double" rule in the PHB. It seems most people intuit the other way though and quadruple 2h PA damage on a 2x crit rather than tripling it though.

Okay... so the "kinks" in the build boil down to (1) Blue Jay can't read and (2) Blue Jay doesn't know how the extra damage from Power Attack works.

I'm off to a good start, I see. :sigh:


I get where you're coming from on RAW, but I would think the common sense ruling would be to allow it, since saying flying can never count as jumping is kind of like saying a character with Quick Draw can never draw a weapon at normal speed. Missing the forest for the tress. After all, wouldn't you allow a character to make a 60 foot standing leap attack charge, assuming they had the skill check to jump 60 feet? A flying 60 foot charge would be the exact same motion if you start on the ground, right?

This feels like a two-edged sword: if a flyer can gain the benefits of jumping based on a principle of equivalent motion, then shouldn't a jumper be entitled to the benefits of flying based on the same reasoning?

A thri-kreen could stand to benefit a lot from counting Leap Attack charges as dive attacks, with that +30 racial bonus to Jumps and 4 claw attacks.


This seems more or less reasonable, though the same "you can't stop on a dime" logic should probably be applied to charges in general. I think the game presumes you are transferring that energy into your opponent when you hit them to stop. So maybe some kind of balance check or reflex save on missed charges is in order?

Then again, the "you stop on a dime" bit was probably added for balance, since it is much more powerful if you can charge attack and keep going past them, a la Ride By Attack.

Yeah, I feel like the entire charge mechanic glosses over a lot of the realism, but it's just the hovering rules that finally cross my personal "willing suspension of disbelief" threshold. I mean, a humanoid creature with wings is already difficult to swallow; one with the maneuverability to swoop within 5-10 feet of the ground, deliver an attack against a ground-based foe, and not risk losing control... I don't know: maybe I like my physics too much.

Hover takes a move action to activate, and I was thinking I'd rule that you would also have to cover a distance while you're trying to stop (provoking AoO's in the process). The same rules would apply to maneuvering after a dive: so, you wouldn't be allowed to turn until you've moved a certain distance after the dive, or something. There would be some kind of check or save to determine what your "stopping distance" is. Doesn't Pathfinder have a Fly skill? Maybe that's the direction I would want to go with that. But, I think this is already far enough from the topic of your thread.

-----

Anyway, I think a dive-attack character is a fun concept. I DM-ed for an uber-diver once, but it was only in the early levels, before his raptoran Fly speed actually kicked in, so he was constantly climbing trees to make gliding dive attacks with a lance (the visual was pretty ridiculous). I'd personally like to play a griffin sometime (for sentimental reasons), but I probably wouldn't be able to do nearly as much with it as your guy can do without gestalt rules or something.

[fallensavior]

This feels like a two-edged sword: if a flyer can gain the benefits of jumping based on a principle of equivalent motion, then shouldn't a jumper be entitled to the benefits of flying based on the same reasoning?

A thri-kreen could stand to benefit a lot from counting Leap Attack charges as dive attacks, with that +30 racial bonus to Jumps and 4 claw attacks.

Hmm, interesting. I feel like they would still need an ability to give them dive. Maybe make it a feat?




Yeah, I feel like the entire charge mechanic glosses over a lot of the realism, but it's just the hovering rules that finally cross my personal "willing suspension of disbelief" threshold. I mean, a humanoid creature with wings is already difficult to swallow; one with the maneuverability to swoop within 5-10 feet of the ground, deliver an attack against a ground-based foe, and not risk losing control... I don't know: maybe I like my physics too much.

What if you had to end the dive charge by landing after making the attack(s)? That was kinda how I mentally pictured it anyway. I took the hover feat just to make using a fly speed more practical.

[KillianHawkeye]

I thought you couldn't take hover unless you had good maneuverability. Am I mistaken?

Quite mistaken. If you have good or better maneuverability, you can already hover in place without need of the feat. The only reason to take Hover is if your maneuverability is average or worse.

[Gruftzwerg]

since the discussion turned to jumping while flying..

Here is the most legal way to use the combo (flying + Leap Attack):

1) Place an Immovable Rod in the Air & activate it.

2) Now (next round) you can make a jump (down) and combo into a dive.

3) To get back up to the rod you need either:

a) enough movement speed + Stagger to bend (change direction) your charges.
or
b) swift action teleport/movement to get back to the rod (e.g. Travel Devotion)

Ladies & Gentleman, may I introduce you to "circus acrobatics man" the ultimate fighter?^^

[Raendyn]

To answer the OP, I would allow it. just, not exactly as it is now.

I wouldnt allow jumping mid-flight. the principle of diving and leapattacking is the exact same. gravity multipilies your speed and hence youforce, you cant multiply gravity because you have feats.

I wouldnt allow +1 Ability mod item unless you/party craft it.

Also, valorous is x2 (+1 time(s)) weapon dmg, not attack dmg.

[Blue Jay]

Hmm, interesting. I feel like they would still need an ability to give them dive. Maybe make it a feat?

I feel like the racial bonus on Jump checks should cover the "not actually flying" part, just like having a racial Fly speed would cover the "not actually jumping" part.

But, I think I agree with what Raendyn said: stacking the Fly and Jump bonuses isn't appropriate. I feel like Leap Attack was basically meant to let non-flying characters count as flying on their charge attacks. But, others have pointed out how it's possible to cheese out your damage much further than you've done here, so I'd have to see what the rest of the table was doing before I really made a decision on how I would want to restrict your character.


What if you had to end the dive charge by landing after making the attack(s)? That was kinda how I mentally pictured it anyway. I took the hover feat just to make using a fly speed more practical.

Yeah, that's simpler than what I was thinking. I would want to see how it works in play before I made an "official" final decision: I might have asked a player to let me try adjudicating it different ways for a few encounters, just to see how it goes.

And I guess I was kind of focused on how to "punish" you for the game not conforming to my vision of the physics involved. That's a dangerous path.

[fallensavior]

Quite mistaken. If you have good or better maneuverability, you can already hover in place without need of the feat. The only reason to take Hover is if your maneuverability is average or worse.

That's a good point, I should just use that feat to improve maneuverability then. (Improved Flight, RotW)

But...it seems the DMG and MM disagree? The Hover feat says you can't hover w/o perfect maneuverability, but DMG says lists good in the table for general flying rules. I don't see any errata, and MM is supposed to be the primary source on extraordinary abilities... :(

Was there some kind of ruling on this, or just consensus?

...

Apart from all that, does anyone want to speculate on how Adroit Flyby Attack (Draconomicon) would work with this build? (Assuming you could hit the fly speed prereq.)


since the discussion turned to jumping while flying..

Here is the most legal way to use the combo (flying + Leap Attack):

1) Place an Immovable Rod in the Air & activate it.

2) Now (next round) you can make a jump (down) and combo into a dive.

3) To get back up to the rod you need either:

a) enough movement speed + Stagger to bend (change direction) your charges.
or
b) swift action teleport/movement to get back to the rod (e.g. Travel Devotion)

Ladies & Gentleman, may I introduce you to "circus acrobatics man" the ultimate fighter?^^

Fun. :)


I wouldnt allow jumping mid-flight. the principle of diving and leapattacking is the exact same. gravity multipilies your speed and hence youforce, you cant multiply gravity because you have feats.

It's not doing exactly the same thing. The mechanic is different. I think that would be correct reasoning to rule dive attacks and Battle Jump non-stacking though.


Also, valorous is x2 (+1 time(s)) weapon dmg, not attack dmg.

Hmm, I can see reading it that way, but that doesn't seem how it is intended though. Do you give Spirited Charge the same treatment?

Because Valorous is worded slightly differently than Spirited Charge but actually says it works the same as Spirited Charge.

So it's the difference between:

"...the valorous weapon deals double damage..."
"...you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)." (emphasis added)

FWIW though, the language on critical hits is the same as that in the Valorous entry:

"×2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit.
×3: The weapon deals triple damage on a critical hit.
×4: The weapon deals quadruple damage on a critical hit."
And so forth...


I feel like the racial bonus on Jump checks should cover the "not actually flying" part, just like having a racial Fly speed would cover the "not actually jumping" part.

I was going to point out how (without an ability like Dragonborn's) you don't get a dive attack by default unless you have talons,...then I saw that it lists claws for that too, so yeah, I guess I'm fine with Thri-Kreen dive attacks. They still seem pretty weak given their LA+racial HD.



That's a dangerous path.

Agreed.