Swiftblade in Core

[Hiro Quester]

Swiftblade has always appealed to me. (I always want to play magical types that get their hands dirty in melee as well). I want to play one. A hasty, impatient, chaotic, speed-freak act-first-think-later type would be fun mechanically and from a role-playing perspective.

We'll be starting a new game in a few months. DM is considering restricting the game to Core only (maybe with PH2 DMG2 as well).

This is not to "balance" the game but to keep power levels within defined and predictable (that is manageable) bounds.

The last time we played with him as DM he gave us superpowers, with all books open and lots of bonus feats and ability boosts; he learned his lesson the hard way about how hard it is to manage and challenge a super-powered party without killing the less optimized members of the party.
I mentioned swiftblade to him as not depending on any mechanism beyond his books. He's willing to consider it, at least; the role-playing possibilities of playing a speed-freak sound like it could be fun for him too.

But how much of a playable swiftblade depends on books I would not have access to? E.g. Abjurant Champion would be off the table.

Are there spells, feats, equipment, enough in the Core books to make a playable swiftblade? I'm not committed to any particular base class or race.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, Swiftblade and all casters are fine in Core only. Restricts your options - be an Elf of some persuasion to enter and don't play 'til 20, but overall you'll be fine. Probably Wizard 10/Swiftblade 10 by the end; but you won't lose much until level 16.

[ATHATH]

You could also be a Human Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/??? X, which nets you two more bonus feats, some skills from any skill list, and a 2 point ability score increase at the cost of a caster level when compared to the Elf build.

[Hiro Quester]

You could also be a Human Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/??? X, which nets you two more bonus feats, some skills from any skill list, and a 2 point ability score increase at the cost of a caster level when compared to the Elf build.

I didn't think about human paragon as getting you into Swiftblade a level earlier than straight wizard. That is an interesting prospect.

But losing an additional caster level seems costly. Even for a bonus feat, +2 stat bonus, an extra skill as a class skill (UMD?). Swiftblade already costs caster levels.

However, it does sound like a good way to get the role-playing. A fit and healthy paragon of a human, who gets totally hooked on his first taste of haste and falls into a speed habit. (Not that I'm trying to make fun of addition. I know that's serious IRL. But in the game it could be interesting to play.)

That bears some thinking about...

Edit: In Core, what would be the +XXXX? Without Abjurant Champion. Is there a core class that works to advance casting and good BAB?

[ATHATH]

I didn't think about human paragon as getting you into Swiftblade a level earlier than straight wizard. That is an interesting prospect.

But losing an additional caster level seems costly. Even for a bonus feat, +2 stat bonus, an extra skill as a class skill (UMD?). Swiftblade already costs caster levels.

However, it does sound like a good way to get the role-playing. A fit and healthy paragon of a human, who gets totally hooked on his first taste of haste and falls into a speed habit. (Not that I'm trying to make fun of addition. I know that's serious IRL. But in the game it could be interesting to play.)

That bears some thinking about...

Edit: In Core, what would be the +XXXX? Without Abjurant Champion. Is there a core class that works to advance casting and good BAB?
You're not actually getting into Swiftblade a level earlier with the Human Paragon method- since you lost a caster level, you'll need to be 6th level to pick up the 3rd level spells that you need to enter Swiftblade.

Losing a caster level is costly, but to be honest, Swiftblade sacks your caster levels anyway- what's an extra lost caster level gonna matter, anyway?

Normally, I'd suggest Eldritch Knight, but I don't think you meet the requirements.

Is your DM okay with you using some other web-material?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If Unearthed Arcana is on the table what about battle sorcerer? Very much a baby's first gish but Battle Sorcerer 10/Swift blade 10 will net you some spells including 1 8th and a psuedo 9th along with a nice 17 BAB.

[Hiro Quester]

You're not actually getting into Swiftblade a level earlier with the Human Paragon method- since you lost a caster level, you'll need to be 6th level to pick up the 3rd level spells that you need to enter Swiftblade.

Losing a caster level is costly, but to be honest, Swiftblade sacks your caster levels anyway- what's an extra lost caster level gonna matter, anyway?

Normally, I'd suggest Eldritch Knight, but I don't think you meet the requirements.

Is your DM okay with you using some other web-material?

Right. I was thinking of the paragon as increasing the wizard's BAB to get to +3 sooner, but even though wizards cast haste at 5th level, the lost caster level still puts it at 6th.

Still, the usual human benefits to skills and bonus feat, as well as a second bonus feat and +2 to your casting stat, and proficiency with a martial weapon isn't nothing.

That vs a fire elf or grey elf is about an even choice.

Eldrich knight would be a reasonable choice for ending the build. If you could eat another loss of caster level. But you also need proficiency with all martial weapons. And that takes an initial martial class.

[ATHATH]

You could be a Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Wizard5/Swiftblade 9-10/??? X. Pounce seems like a pretty good trade for a caster level on a gish.

[Hiro Quester]

You're thinking of Spirit Lion Totem. That's in one of the Ccomplete books (Champion?), not Core.

Lion totem barbarian just gets the Run feat.

Some swiftblade builds do take a level in a martial class, though. I guess fighter for the bonus feat. Maybe a monk variant that got dodge as the bonus feat..

[Eldariel]

Seriously, I wouldn't fret it. You peak out at 15 - but is your game going to last that long? Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9 is just as good in Core as it is with all books open (okay, you need to work a bit harder for your BAB). You'll fall behind at 16+ and that's okay. No reason to lose any more caster levels; 3-4 is already more than enough punishment and every lost one hurts more than the previous one.

If you do play a game going up to 20th level (props!) you'll probably just want to go Wizard 10/Swiftblade 10 as the only PRC that advances casting in Core is Eldritch Knight (and Human Paragon which is 3 levels long) losing you 2 more caster levels. Ultimately it's a choice between 2 BAB and 2 levels of casting; it should come as absolutely no surprise to anybody that 2 levels of casting is vastly superior particularly on these levels, doubly so since the Swiftblade 10 Time Stop relies on higher level spell slots. You could actually go Wizard 11/Swiftblade 9 for 14 BAB and 9th level spells if you wish to too; trades the Swiftblade Time Stop for the actual Time Stop (and Shapechange, Gate, Wish, etc.).

[Hiro Quester]

We do often go to level 20. And beyond (currently playing a Druid 21 developing my first ever epic spells).

There is always the option of using lore master PrC to advance wizard casting after swiftblade.

The trade off with BAB is stark. More caster levels are always better than more BAB. There are other sources of attack bonuses and damage.

But it's the other things you get besides BAB that might make losing a caster level worth it (swiftblade's class features; ability score bump, bonus feat, martial weapon proficiency, UMD as a class skill).

With swiftblade not getting 9th level spells is acceptable, because you get an improved time stop anyway (improved because you know how long it will last).

[Eldariel]

Shapechange is THE strongest 9th level spell and makes the extra action from Haste that much stronger. That said, the value of all that depends on your optimization level and how you foresee using this with your character concept. If you go Epic, I 110% recommend 9th level spells for taking epic feats in time.

You can always use Divine Power or even Transformation (works fine with Shapechange even if it sucks otherwise) for BAB though 14 or 15 is fine, and 16 BAB + 9th level spells + Swiftblade 9 is impossible in Core.

Loremaster gives you UMD while Archmage gives you cool abilities like Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping. Whichever or both is fine for the last 4-5 levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

One interesting and not very covered option is to not be a tier one caster. Consider instead the Bard entry. Bard 8 qualifies you for Swiftblade. Now, you lack the Sublime chord access most people go for when they set up the build (bard 8 / swiftblade 1 / sublime chord 1 / swiftblade 9 / sublime chord 1) or (bard 8 / swiftblade 1 / sublime chord 1 / swiftblade 8 / sublime chord 2). The first get's you timestop, the second another 9th level spell of your choice. It's not a major upgrade over wizard progression, but it's a slightly less casty but more skillful and more bab option that still gets 8th level spells.

Without sublime chord you are looking at something VERY less casty, but you still hit 6th level spells in time to use timstop in 1 turn increments. You do end up with a lot more skills and slightly more bab though.

[gkathellar]

A special shout-out goes to casting-focused swiftblades (i.e. taking 4, 6, or 9 levels of the class) for being very effective even without Gish stuff from non-core books.

[Hiro Quester]

I was strongly thinking about bard, as offering inspire courage and inspire greatness, that can compensate for lower BAB.

But I played a bard/Sublime chord in our last game (that also went to level 21), and I know how awesome it can be, especially with many non-core options. A bard would feel hamstrung without snowflake wardance, doomspeak, sublime chord, and the many spells and feats that make an awesome bard. A core bard is kinda meh, in comparison. Even with swiftblade augmenting it.

But realizing that you only get 6th level spells is pretty limiting for a swiftblade's time-stop feature.

[ATHATH]

A special shout-out goes to casting-focused swiftblades (i.e. taking 4, 6, or 9 levels of the class) for being very effective even without Gish stuff from non-core books.
Yup. 3.0 Haste is so broken that getting it back is probably worth 3 caster levels and 9 levels of investment into a PrC.

[gkathellar]

Yup. 3.0 Haste is so broken that getting it back is probably worth 3 caster levels and 9 levels of investment into a PrC.

Not to mention 50% miss chances against everything and a ginormous initiative bonus. Basically the caster Swiftblade plays as a more durable wizard who eats the action economy for breakfast and has slight attack bonuses, but has slower spell progression. The trade arguably favors the standard wizard at most levels, but it's perfectly reasonable either way and even a small level investment will play nicely with Quicken Spell.

[Hiro Quester]

I do like that focus, of being a wizard who "eats the action economy for breakfast", and is slightly more durable. Even just focussing on casting there is much to like here.

Also, though, many of our games at high levels become ones in which spell resources are tested (many encounters, with little time to rest to recover spells, because the bad guys are racing us to get the McGuffin).

Being a caster with options beyond casting spells, so you can draw your sword and defeat the bad guys and save spell resources is definitely a bonus.