Fixing the Dragonborn in three steps.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I know there are some people who don't like dragonborns out there. I don't have a problem with this, just forbid them in your campaign as DM. However, for the most of us who think that roleplaying a dragonborn grants us with tons of fun and laughs, it's evidently underpower.

Ok, the dragonborn is a cool class and weak class. And I even I'm tempted to think that designers made it on purpose, because if dragonborns were both cool and powerful, the campaigns would be flooded with dragonborn PCs. How to fix this? Giving them darkvision? No. There is enough (more than enough) races with darkvision, even those who don't deserve it. Well, the solution is easy, take what a dragonborn is and does and just fix that.

1. Claws. You have claws which you can use to make unarmed strikes to deal 1d4+Str modifier slashing damage.
Reasoning: All descriptions and depictions of dragonborns include claws. So let's fix this. Given them a claw attack as a racial trait. It's flavorful, gives a realiable weapon and lots of flavor and fun if you are creative and it's not something that breaks the game. [EDIT: after reading the feedback, I changed "retractable", I just took it from UA racial feats, but doesn't seem apropiate]

2. Breath. You can use your Breath Weapon as a bonus action instead of an action.
Reasoning: We all know that Draconic Breath doesn't scale well. At medium and higher levels, using your action to deal crappy damage isn't worth. You can fix this increasing the damage, but there has been a lot of discussion about this. You can also fix it given them a recharge of 5-6, but that would slow the game and wouldn't solve the crappy damage and waste of an action. So just make it a bonus action instead. [EDIT: some people think a bonus action it's too much, maybe if someone comes with a better idea I'd change it or maybe I just keep breath weapon as in the PHB ]

3. Heritage Personality.Some traits of the personality of your ancestry still run through the Dragonborn veins. Depending on your Draconic Ancestry, you gain proficiency in one of the following skills:

Silver: Arcana
Red: Intimidation
Gold: Insight
Black: Stealth
Green: Deception
Brass: History
Bronze: Perception
Copper: Deception
White: Survival
Blue: Perssuassion

Reasoning: I never liked that the ancestry of the Dragonborn was just the color and the elemental resistance/breath. It seems lame, as in a videogame (you know, each button you press gives you a different color...). So your ancestry also gives some hints of your personality. Of course, many centuries have passed since the first dragonborns, and there are no alignment requirements or fixed personality traits. That's why I have translated it into a bonus skill. Each skill is related to the main personality traits of each dragon. I think it's very flavorful and gives a bump to the dragonborns, both in roleplaying and mechanics.

So, what do you think?

[smcmike]

Seems good to me. I like the simplicity of making the breath weapon a bonus action.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Seems good to me. I like the simplicity of making the breath weapon a bonus action.

I decided this taking my players into account. I'm running STK right now as DM and each dice roll for the players is like the end of the world. They rub dices, blow them, state strange conditions to make valid the roll (such as "if it falls out of my PC character, the roll isn't valid"). It's funny but, with this as a background, rolling more dices for a breath damage increase or rolling more dices round after round for the recharge option) was totally out of consideration. I imagined one of my players blowing the d6 several times to "recharge it with breath" and it just desperated me on advance. So bonus action is the solution.:smallbiggrin:

[Hrugner]

In previous discussions on this, we also debated letting the breath weapon replace an attack in the attack action. The damage itself is low enough that any cool down seems unneeded.

[polymphus]

I think the issue a lot of people have with Dragonborn is less about the stats than the flavour. They're just kinda boring? They're your very stereotypical fantasy Honourable Warrior Dudes and that's about it.

Fleshing them out and doing more with the tension between monstrous/human (with appropriate mechanical changes) would go a lot further than just changing their rules.

Like I dunno, a Blue Dragonborn wears clothes and lives in human society, but it can never quite rid itself of the territorial urges of its dragon half. Have dragonborn be like Lovecraft's Deep Ones -- they start mostly human, then get more monstrous as they age and are eventually driven out of their homes by scared and superstitious villagers; have them fight a constant and growing urge to return to their monstrous father, and have that generate conflict.

There's so much potential in Dragonborn, and they're just kinda like "oh it's a big dude with scales who talks about honour a lot".

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think the issue a lot of people have with Dragonborn is less about the stats than the flavour. They're just kinda boring? They're your very stereotypical fantasy Honourable Warrior Dudes and that's about it.

Fleshing them out and doing more with the tension between monstrous/human (with appropriate mechanical changes) would go a lot further than just changing their rules.

Like I dunno, a Blue Dragonborn wears clothes and lives in human society, but it can never quite rid itself of the territorial urges of its dragon half. Have dragonborn be like Lovecraft's Deep Ones -- they start mostly human, then get more monstrous as they age and are eventually driven out of their homes by scared and superstitious villagers; have them fight a constant and growing urge to return to their monstrous father, and have that generate conflict.

There's so much potential in Dragonborn, and they're just kinda like "oh it's a big dude with scales who talks about honour a lot".

On the forums, I see mechanical complaints a lot. In play? It's one of the more popular races.

Of course, my dragonborn are different--they're a second attempt at creating a super-soldier race. The first resulted in the orcs, which had a little bit of an anger and control issue. The dragonborn worked a lot better. I don't do racial behaviors much, so dragonborn are different depending on what area they're from and how they grew up. They do tend to be a bit more martially oriented than others due to the super-soldier genetic legacy.

I don't do any color legacies--each dragon is an individual, as is each dragonborn. Oh, and since I missed that "all dragonborn are brown" thing, mine have matching scales.

Mechanically, I do allow either +2 DEX or +2 STR and grant darkvision. I may do BA breaths as well, but none of my current crop of new players are playing one this time around and I'd rather not add house-rules to the level 14 people.

[JellyPooga]

The thing about Dragonborn is; how often do you see Dragonborn NPC's? From a purely flavour point of view, they're very niche. Maybe[i] you might see a lieutentant or BBEG Dragonborn, but largely speaking, the only Dragonborn you'll see in a given campaign will be [i]player characters. That influences the abilities they might have more than you might think; giving Brass Dragonborn proficiency in History makes them far less effective as NPC's than, say, Black Dragonborn who get Stealth. Except conceptually (i.e. dependant on GM fiat).

[Specter]

Darkvision, don't forget darkvision.

[Potato_Priest]

This looks like a nice way to make the breath weapon more viable at higher tiers. Good work.


Darkvision, don't forget darkvision.

They don't need dark vision to be good.

Let there be some exceptions so that darkvision remains a strength for the races that have it, rather than an annoying weakness for those that don't.

If I had my say, no-one who didn't also get sunlight sensitivity would get darkvision, but that is sadly not the case.

[90sMusic]

I've said this before, but i'll just say it again here as well.

I always modify dragonborn (as they are an absurdly weak race) to give them darkvision and a 5-6 recharge on their breath.

I don't increase breath damage or make it a bonus action because the breath is very powerful when used as an AOE option for classes that otherwise wouldn't have one, so it doesn't really need an increase in damage when it is effectively used against numerous targets, it just needs to be recharge instead of short rest so that you don't feel penalized for using it and can actually live out the whole dragon-blood fantasy. Making it a bonus action and having recharge is absurdly powerful because they'll just do that much extra damage per round whenever the breath is up. It's better to keep it an action, but let it recharge.

Darkvision is needed though. Dragons are one of the few creatures in 5e that are actually supposed to have darkvision, so it makes sense for dragonborn to have it, especially when half-dragons do.

The problem in 5e is that it does away with the concept of Low-Light vision. Most of the races, like elves for instance, are not SUPPOSED to have darkvision, they're supposed to have low-light vision like in older editions that just doubles the distance they can see with light as opposed to seeing in total darkness. That was a trait only given to beings that lived underground like dwarves and gnomes. No one else should really have it.

But since 5e tossed that in the garbage and handed out dark vision all willy nilly, it's already just a random penalty to the races who don't have it, and it really makes no sense for dragonborn not to.

And i've said this before, but it always needs to be said again, if your players feel like they don't need a light source ever, even if all of them have darkvision, then you're running your game wrong. They get disadvantage on all perception checks without bright light. That will quickly change their attitude about light sources. The biggest advantage to darkvision is being sneaky.

[ChampionWiggles]

It always made little sense to me that Dragonborn didn't have a claw or bite attack, especially since Aaracockra, Tabaxi, and Lizardfolk all have them that replaces their normal unarmed attack. As for darkvision, I can see why people don't want to give it to them, since darkvision is so common in 5e, but canonically, it makes sense. The second sentence of their race page states they were shaped by draconic gods or dragons and hatched from dragon eggs, so it would make sense for them to have the darkvision that all dragons have. I haven't been able to get to any high level campaigns, so I can't really weigh in on the breath weapon topic.

But for your third change, I have a suggestion. Why not instead of having their heritage dictate a skill, give them an ability that lets them add half their proficiency bonus to a skill they are proficient in? "A dragonborn holds mastery of a particular skill as a lifetime goal." (PHB pg 33) It would make sense, at least in my mind. Or you could even allow a choice of proficiency with a set of artisan tools. Linking heritage to skills just seems a little odd to me. I feel like linking heritage to skill proficiency would encourage choosing heritage due to mechanical reasons more so than it already is. Heritage should be more about flavor and roleplay aspects. Just like half-orcs have orcish tendencies and impulses they can either embrace or fight against, a dragonborn's heritage should be the same.

[Dr. Cliché]

The one thing that puzzles me about your fixes is why their claws would be retractable. :smallconfused:

[Blas_de_Lezo]

giving Brass Dragonborn proficiency in History makes them far less effective as NPC's than, say, Black Dragonborn who get Stealth. Except conceptually (i.e. dependant on GM fiat).

I just gave this skills after carefully reading each dragon's personality on the Monster Manual. I chose the appropiated skill for each dragon. However, when I doubt, I tried not to make and OP choice. For example, fire damage it's the most common non-weapon damage, so fire resistance is highly demanded. So I tried to avoid giving some of the best-considered skills to fire resistance dragonborns



But for your third change, I have a suggestion. Why not instead of having their heritage dictate a skill, give them an ability that lets them add half their proficiency bonus to a skill they are proficient in? "A dragonborn holds mastery of a particular skill as a lifetime goal." (PHB pg 33) It would make sense, at least in my mind. Or you could even allow a choice of proficiency with a set of artisan tools. Linking heritage to skills just seems a little odd to me. I feel like linking heritage to skill proficiency would encourage choosing heritage due to mechanical reasons more so than it already is. Heritage should be more about flavor and roleplay aspects. Just like half-orcs have orcish tendencies and impulses they can either embrace or fight against, a dragonborn's heritage should be the same.

I agree with you, but take this into account. Giving half their profiency in one skill is maybe too OP. You put half-orcs as an example of their orcish tendencis thaty they can embrace or not, but remember that half-orcs are granted with Intimidation.


The one thing that puzzles me about your fixes is why their claws would be retractable. :smallconfused:

I just took that from the UA racial feats, you're the second person in thinking it's weird. I agree, I also thought the same first time I read it, so I'm changing it.

Thanks for the input, I just made some changes (no retractable claws, just claws as it sounds, I took that from UA but didn't like it neither). And maybe I just avoid changing the Breath Weapon and grant them with darvision, I'm not sure. I will read your feedback and make my mind, as I'm introducing this changes into my campaign as DM.

[qube]

seems pretty good. The only remark I have is that, as I consider using breath weapon asbonus action is a 'static' fix to solve a 'scaling' problem, I'm not really liking the change.

(suggestion: How about making it a bonus action as of level 11 or something?

[DanyBallon]

seems pretty good. The only remark I have is that, as I consider using breath weapon asbonus action is a 'static' fix to solve a 'scaling' problem, I'm not really liking the change.

(suggestion: How about making it a bonus action as of level 11 or something?

I think that's a better idea than giving them breath weapon as a bonus action right from the start.
If in addition you also give them claws (I prefer non-rectractable), they already have a possibility for TWF if they wield a weapon and have a free hand, which is useful until extra attacks kicks in for martials.

[Arkhios]

I half expected the three steps to be:

1. Remove the race.
2. ???
3. Profit

:smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I think you're on the right track. I don't know why people would think that to deal mediocre damage in small area once per short rest, as a bonus action, would be too much. In all honesty, a bonus action breath weapon is quite alright in my opinion. Claws are flavorful indeed, and retractability might be a bit redundant as the claws themselves really don't have to interfere with wielding a weapon. You just have sturdier fingers with sharp nails, and that's about it.

I don't remember enough about dragon types and their personalities/quirks, but I think those racial skill proficiencies should be fine.

[ChampionWiggles]

I agree with you, but take this into account. Giving half their profiency in one skill is maybe too OP. You put half-orcs as an example of their orcish tendencis thaty they can embrace or not, but remember that half-orcs are granted with Intimidation.

I mean...that's why I also alternatively suggested giving proficiency with a type of artisan's tools. Similar how dwarf's have a choice between three types or do similar to the Kenku Training and give them choice of proficiency in a certain amount of available skills (or a combination of the two).

The comparison for half-orc tendencies was directed more towards role-play, not mechanics. Heritage should be more of a flavor option and give players something to base their dragonborn's character towards. A gold heritage dragonborn would be more inclined to be shy and secretive, while a red heritage dragonborn would be more inclined to tendencies of violent outbursts and arrogance. That's more what I was getting at.

[War_lord]

My main problem with Dragonborn isn't mechanical mediocrity, I don't think that's as big an issue as people make it out to be. My issue with the Dragonborn is that Half-Dragons already exist.

[Arkhios]

My main problem with Dragonborn isn't mechanical mediocrity, I don't think that's as big an issue as people make it out to be. My issue with the Dragonborn is that Half-Dragons already exist.

Well, yes. As a monster template. PC ≠ Monster.

[Demonslayer666]

Dragonborn should get a bonus to AC. Sorcerers can, and they are much less of a dragon.

[Arkhios]

Dragonborn should get a bonus to AC. Sorcerers can, and they are much less of a dragon.

Agreed 100%

Though, probably only a +1 bonus to unarmored AC.

[Theodoxus]

If I had my say, no-one who didn't also get sunlight sensitivity would get darkvision, but that is sadly not the case.


I always modify dragonborn (as they are an absurdly weak race) to give them darkvision ...

Darkvision is needed though. Dragons are one of the few creatures in 5e that are actually supposed to have darkvision, so it makes sense for dragonborn to have it, especially when half-dragons do.

The problem in 5e is that it does away with the concept of Low-Light vision. Most of the races, like elves for instance, are not SUPPOSED to have darkvision, they're supposed to have low-light vision like in older editions that just doubles the distance they can see with light as opposed to seeing in total darkness. That was a trait only given to beings that lived underground like dwarves and gnomes. No one else should really have it.

And i've said this before, but it always needs to be said again, if your players feel like they don't need a light source ever, even if all of them have darkvision, then you're running your game wrong. They get disadvantage on all perception checks without bright light. That will quickly change their attitude about light sources. The biggest advantage to darkvision is being sneaky.

I agree with both these sentiments. I've brought back Low-light vision, but I think I'll run with Potato_Priest's idea as well and grant any PhB race that has darkvision the option of keeping it, but gaining sun-light sensitivity, or gain low-light vision instead. (Low-light is basically the Skulker feat's third bullet: 'Dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks relying on sight.')

[TealWastelander]

I think the issue a lot of people have with Dragonborn is less about the stats than the flavour. They're just kinda boring? They're your very stereotypical fantasy Honourable Warrior Dudes and that's about it.

Fleshing them out and doing more with the tension between monstrous/human (with appropriate mechanical changes) would go a lot further than just changing their rules.

Like I dunno, a Blue Dragonborn wears clothes and lives in human society, but it can never quite rid itself of the territorial urges of its dragon half. Have dragonborn be like Lovecraft's Deep Ones -- they start mostly human, then get more monstrous as they age and are eventually driven out of their homes by scared and superstitious villagers; have them fight a constant and growing urge to return to their monstrous father, and have that generate conflict.

There's so much potential in Dragonborn, and they're just kinda like "oh it's a big dude with scales who talks about honour a lot".

While I agree with you, I do see how the problem is very much more mechanics motivated for a lot of people. I also don't like the way Dragonborn are portrayed in the PHB. So I completely changed them to match my setting. For example, Dragonborn in my world are more comparable to PHB Drow in terms of the role they play. They are the direct descendants of dragons (which are horribly evil borderline feral creatures created by a dying corrupt God that eat fey creatures and are all but extinct.) and are kind of the "default edgy/untrustworthy race." They live in a might makes right type of society that mimics their draconic roots, enslave kobolds/lesser dragons to do menial labour (who they see as their evolutionary lessers), and inherent racism/predator-prey mentality towards elf-kind.

Mechanically they are not different from the PHB Dragonborn in the slightest. It's pretty easy to change the flavour. But it doesn't change how they are lacking mechanically. I find that's a much harder problem to fix as it's difficult to just completely rewrite the mechanics without potentially making them too good or somehow ever worse. With flavour you can just go "I don't like them being like this so I'll make them like this" and not have it be a problem (or you can handwave most of them away as you go.) With mechanics there's no way to just implement changes without the risk of it changing the game in some way/potentially unbalancing things.

[ChampionWiggles]

I get why a lot of people want to modify Dragonborn mechanically, since they feel lacking compared to a lot of the other races. But I guess I'm just having trouble seeing why so many people don't like the background or how they're portrayed. The way they're portrayed has me draw parallels to eastern cultures, predominately Japan for me. The emphasis of honor in their culture, the structure of clans and their roles in them, the fact that their clan name/surname is spoken first when introducing themselves, how honor plays a role in standing in the clan and dishonoring the clan can result to exile. As well as the fact that they wholeheartedly dedicate themselves to whatever they do.

[Zanthy1]

I feel like the claw the breath weapon as a BA is cool, but I would also add a recharge (but only on a 6). I would add darkvision as well, because due to how most of the races are that not having it is a disadvantage, and I do not think creating more races without darkvision to "balance" it out, especially when it actually makes sense for the race to see in the dark, is a bad idea.

Personally I wouldn't add a claw attack, mostly because I don't see them as needing one, but also because I view them as more humanoid than dragon, like a scaled person sort of thing. In which case I do agree with the above mentioned +1 unarmored AC bonus

[Rogerdodger557]

I think the +1 AC should apply regardless of whether or not they are wearing armor. What happens when they put the armor on? Do their scales disappear? No. WotC did this with the Eberron UA, with the Warforged.

[Arkhios]

I think the +1 AC should apply regardless of whether or not they are wearing armor. What happens when they put the armor on? Do their scales disappear? No. WotC did this with the Eberron UA, with the Warforged.

There's no official race that which natural armor works like that. Eberron UA is just as official as any homebrew and as such, not guaranteed to be thoroughly tested for balance. Lizardfolk is the only official race in print which has any natural armor, and it only works while unarmored.

[Zanthy1]

I think the +1 AC should apply regardless of whether or not they are wearing armor. What happens when they put the armor on? Do their scales disappear? No. WotC did this with the Eberron UA, with the Warforged.

No the scales do not go away, but why would it stack when nothing else in this edition stacks like that aside from a shield and the shield spell? Going off that logic, what would prevent someone from putting light armor on underneath heavy armor?

The idea is that with the scales your base AC would be 11 instead of 10. Armor in 5e sets your AC at a certain point, with the possibility of adding Dex. The scales themselves are not adding anything to the armor, it is still just as tough as it would be if skin were underneath.

Also, UA is playtest material, and therefore subject to change and edits, and not a reliable source of rules and ruling.

[Dr. Cliché]

No the scales do not go away, but why would it stack when nothing else in this edition stacks like that aside from a shield and the shield spell? Going off that logic, what would prevent someone from putting light armor on underneath heavy armor?

The idea is that with the scales your base AC would be 11 instead of 10. Armor in 5e sets your AC at a certain point, with the possibility of adding Dex. The scales themselves are not adding anything to the armor, it is still just as tough as it would be if skin were underneath.

Also, UA is playtest material, and therefore subject to change and edits, and not a reliable source of rules and ruling.

I think the issue is that if it doesn't stack with armour then it's a pointless ability ~99% of the time.

[Zanthy1]

I think the issue is that if it doesn't stack with armour then it's a pointless ability ~99% of the time.

It is not meant to be a major ability, but should the character ever find itself without armor, it is a nice boost. For example getting attacked while sleeping, or a monk/barbarian who doesnt wear any armor, or even a wizard/sorc could benefit from it. It is not supposed to be amazing, because the race has other features (some of which need to be buffed, like the breath weapon).

[Rogerdodger557]

Also, UA is playtest material, and therefore subject to change and edits, and not a reliable source of rules and ruling.

Another unreliable source of rules and ruling, subject to change and edits? Homebrew.

[Zanthy1]

Another unreliable source of rules and ruling, subject to change and edits? Homebrew.

Homebrew is meant to be a new idea using the same system. The fact that UA added an AC bonus to warforged while the rest of the races don't was probably a result of them not actually be breathing, blood pumping things. Yes it is subject to change, but basing a rules argument on either UA or homebrew is wrong, which was the point I was trying to make.

[DarkKnightJin]

I've found a feat by the people over at Middle Finger of Vecna, called 'True Dragon's Breath'.
It basically means that characters yhat have a breath weapon get the recharge on 5-6 that dragons have. And I think that's fair, since they are spending a feat to get it, making it a bit more balanced.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I've found a feat by the people over at Middle Finger of Vecna, called 'True Dragon's Breath'.
It basically means that characters yhat have a breath weapon get the recharge on 5-6 that dragons have. And I think that's fair, since they are spending a feat to get it, making it a bit more balanced.

Nice! Do you have a link or could post it here? Have they homebrewed more dragonbon feats?

[Specter]

Homebrew is meant to be a new idea using the same system. The fact that UA added an AC bonus to warforged while the rest of the races don't was probably a result of them not actually be breathing, blood pumping things. Yes it is subject to change, but basing a rules argument on either UA or homebrew is wrong, which was the point I was trying to make.

If the feat does only that, then it's not a good feat.

A dragonborn's breath weapon does decent damage at first, but it doesn't scale well in the future. At level 6, a caster is doing 2d10 with his Fire Bolt and you're pulling 3d6, except he does it all day. The 5-6 charge should be inherent to the race, not a feat.

EDIT: This is a misquote, I was referring to DarkKnightJin.

[DarkKnightJin]

Nice! Do you have a link or could post it here? Have they homebrewed more dragonbon feats?

It's part of their Draconis Fundaris or something. It has something dragon themed for all PHB classes.
It costs about $3 or something, but it has subclasses, some feats (including some that let you Polymorph into a Dragon at 19th), and some spells woth dragon flavoring. Worth the money, I feel.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Some interesting changes, I might use some of them. Though in my setting there are only green dragonborn and they're are actually a sub-species of Lizardfolk.


The problem in 5e is that it does away with the concept of Low-Light vision. Most of the races, like elves for instance, are not SUPPOSED to have darkvision, they're supposed to have low-light vision like in older editions that just doubles the distance they can see with light as opposed to seeing in total darkness. That was a trait only given to beings that lived underground like dwarves and gnomes. No one else should really have it.
In older editions they had all had infer-vision. There was no darkvision/low-light vision divide. Elves and Dwarves could see in the dark the exact same way back in the day.