PDA

View Full Version : Boosting Half-Orcs



storybookknight
2007-08-13, 02:15 PM
Since there's a Half-Elf thread...

I recently developed a homebrew setting, and decided that I wanted more of the races of sentient humanoids to be less uncivilized.

In that vein, 'orcs' were a russian/mongol type nomadic horse people, with the following penalties and bonuses.

Str+2, Int-2, Cha-2
Darkvision 60'
+2 competence bonus to Handle Animal, Ride, and Survival checks.
Wild Empathy, as the druid skill.
+3 competence bonus on all Wild Empathy checks.

Basically, Half-Orcs aren't 'stupid' because they're a lower race, they have lower tolerances for book learning and arcane magic because of their connection to nature.

Rangers, Barbarians, and Druids ARE some of the most common classes for the current 'half-orc' race.

In that vein, I was thinking about something like this for the new half-orc:

Int -2.
Darkvision 60'
4 extra skill points at first level, and 1 per level thereafter.
+2 bonus on handle animal checks.
+2 bonus on sense motive checks, as the instinct combines with a more human-oriented social awareness.
Effectively greater strength for the purposes of load limits (haven't figured out the math on this yet) and a +1 bonus on all strength-based skills.
+1 competence bonus to fortitude saves.
Endurance as a bonus feat.

Person_Man
2007-08-13, 02:33 PM
Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) feat from Races of Faerun.

That's pretty much all an orchish blooded race needs to be balanced. Pick up a reach weapon, and now all your charges do double damage with no downside.

My preferred high damage combo is to use an Orc Psychic Warrior with Headlong Rush, Karmic Strike, Double Hit, an orcish double axe, and the Vampiric Blade power (or Claws of the Beast and Claws of the Vampire). You Headlong Rush them, provoke and AoO, and you get two double damage hits in return, and then get your normal double damage charge attack, and heal 50% of the damage you deal from all of your attacks. If your target is still alive by some random chance, use Psionic Lion's Pounce as well.

nerulean
2007-08-13, 02:41 PM
Well, it may be a tiny thing, but half-orcs in our group get +2 or+4 to Intimidate, depending on which DM it is. No way the big green guy should be fundamentally less scary than the two foot halfling.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-13, 02:50 PM
I agree with person-man. Headlong Rush as a bonus feat balances everything out for playing both Orcs and Half-Orcs.

SurlySeraph
2007-08-13, 02:52 PM
I think just giving them a +2 Constitution bonus and then 2 bonus points in a couple skills works well. They're still weaker than, say, elves, but it helps.

lord_khaine
2007-08-13, 03:02 PM
giving them +2 con as well would mean they had +2 to both of the main melee class stats, and -2 to the main melee class dump stats, you dont see anything wrong in this?

ignore this if you were refering to the new ½orc variant without +2 str.

SurlySeraph
2007-08-13, 03:05 PM
Well, half-orcs are supposed to be melee-optimized. That's what they were designed for. Giving them a Constitution bonus strikes me as entirely reasonable, especially because it means they no longer have a net stat penalty.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 03:38 PM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/1128.html

Kaelaroth
2007-08-13, 04:16 PM
In our group we're going to add in the idea that half-orcs gain +2 bonus on saves versus fear and poison.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-13, 04:19 PM
+2 con, +2 str, -2 int, -2 cha seems to balance it.

Telonius
2007-08-13, 04:21 PM
+2 STR is not worth -2 to two scores. Lose one of the penalties (my vote is Charisma, which is about more than looking good) and it'll be balanced.

Proven_Paradox
2007-08-13, 04:49 PM
Yeah, just remove the charisma penalty I think. This opens up the shamanistic path for orc casters; sorcerers, favored souls, and so on. These are what I've always envisioned as being the orc casters, and the cha penalty makes it impossible. If that still leaves you with a bad taste, give them a penalty to some charisma based skills due to ugliness. A diplomacy/gather information penalty coupled with an intimidate bonus sounds right to me.

Wolfwood2
2007-08-13, 04:51 PM
In that vein, I was thinking about something like this for the new half-orc:

Int -2.
Darkvision 60'
4 extra skill points at first level, and 1 per level thereafter.
+2 bonus on handle animal checks.
+2 bonus on sense motive checks, as the instinct combines with a more human-oriented social awareness.
Effectively greater strength for the purposes of load limits (haven't figured out the math on this yet) and a +1 bonus on all strength-based skills.
+1 competence bonus to fortitude saves.
Endurance as a bonus feat.

So effectively these half-orcs have:

*-1 to intelligence based skills, +1 to strength based skills (a wash)
* A strong incentive not to be any kind of intelligence-based spellcaster. (But otherwise come up normal on skill points, the only reason non-casters care about intelligence.)
*Darkvision
*Not in as big a hurry to carry a bag of holding
*+1 to fortitude saves
*+2 on a couple of occasionally-used skills
*Endurance (one of the least-powerful feats)

What about favored class? You didn't mention it.

Regardless, these guys are just unexciting. At least the PHB half-orc is good at hitting things and makes a nice barbarian. What does this guy have going for him? Might as well be a half-elf. I don't see why anybody would ever play your half-orc as opposed to a human.

storybookknight
2007-08-13, 07:00 PM
The new 'orc' was really the rewrite of the old 'half-orc', and the new 'half-orc' was supposed to be something else again. I do admit that I couldn't come up with anything too exciting, I just liked the idea of having an intelligence penalty but a skill bonus to make up for it. It's like saying "we're pretty clever, it's just that a bunch of us have dyslexia and don't make good wizards" or something like that.

I admit that they're a little unexciting, but I thought it put them closer to on par with the (existing) half-elf.

brian c
2007-08-13, 07:12 PM
So effectively these half-orcs have:

*-1 to intelligence based skills, +1 to strength based skills (a wash)
* A strong incentive not to be any kind of intelligence-based spellcaster. (But otherwise come up normal on skill points, the only reason non-casters care about intelligence.)
*Darkvision
*Not in as big a hurry to carry a bag of holding
*+1 to fortitude saves
*+2 on a couple of occasionally-used skills
*Endurance (one of the least-powerful feats)

What about favored class? You didn't mention it.

Regardless, these guys are just unexciting. At least the PHB half-orc is good at hitting things and makes a nice barbarian. What does this guy have going for him? Might as well be a half-elf. I don't see why anybody would ever play your half-orc as opposed to a human.

Just a note, lots of people (myself included) don't play with favored classes, it just discourages any multiclassing. The only time I'd use that rule is if I had a player who was taking a lot of 1 or 2 level dips for optimization.

Also, Endurance as a bonus feat sounds great to me. I love the feat Diehard, but I rarely get it because the Endurance pre-req is so useless. A larger percentage of Half-Orcs wth these rules would want to take Diehard, even casters it's great for, it basically gives you +11 hp (10 negatives, plus you can do stuff at 0hp too).


Regardless of that, I think your Half-Orcs are a bit underpowered. At least give them some sort of ability bonus. Just -2 Int and some special bonuses doesn't cut it, that makes them worse than Half-Elves.

Querzis
2007-08-13, 08:50 PM
I think we should really just get rid of the -2 to charisma and you'll be ok. I really dont know why orcs should have less charisma anyway. Given their short temper, I get the -2 to intelligence, they just arent interested in books or general knowledge. A +4 to intimidation and a -4 to diplomacy also sounds right to me.

TheThan
2007-08-13, 11:39 PM
I believe that Orcs need a +1 bonus to attack rolls against dwarves, its only fair that they get the same bonus that dwarves get. or better yet, make it against elves, since they seem to have more hatred to elves than to dwarves.

Jack Mann
2007-08-14, 12:00 AM
Int -2.
Darkvision 60'
4 extra skill points at first level, and 1 per level thereafter.
+2 bonus on handle animal checks.
+2 bonus on sense motive checks, as the instinct combines with a more human-oriented social awareness.
Effectively greater strength for the purposes of load limits (haven't figured out the math on this yet) and a +1 bonus on all strength-based skills.
+1 competence bonus to fortitude saves.
Endurance as a bonus feat.

I don't think this works particularly well. There's just nothing they're particularly good at. A few small bonuses here and there just don't add up to much. At least the core half-orcs are good for something. They can smash things with the best of 'em.

Let's compare them with half-elves.

Half-elves have +2 to two skills. So do your half-orcs. But half-elves also get +1 to three other skills. Advantage: half-elves.
Your half-orcs get darkvision 60'. Half-elves get low light vision. Advantage: half-orcs.
Your half-orcs get a +1 bonus to fortitude saves across the board. Half-elves are immune to sleep and get +2 to saves against enchantment. Advantage: half-orcs.
Your half-orcs get -1 to all intelligence-based checks, but can, uh, carry a lot. Half-elves aren't penalized on any skill checks and can buy a mule. Advantage: Half-elves.
Half-orcs get endurance. Half-elves don't. Advantage: half-orcs. But only barely. Endurance is a pretty crappy feat.
Half-elves have elven blood. Your half-orcs presumably have orc blood. Advantage: half-elves. There are just more prestige classes and special options open to elves than there are to orcs.

Total advantage: I'd say half-elves, by a hair. Diplomacy is a much better skill, generally, than sense motive or handle animal. Listen, spot, and search are all used rather frequently. And the ability to take things like elven substitution levels and elf-only prestige classes can be quite useful.

However, this doesn't change the fact that the half-elf is nigh-useless as a race. So, that your half-orcs are come up short compared to them points to a serious need to rework your assumptions. Come up with some special abilities. Maybe let them keep their +2 to strength. The race should be enticing both from a flavor and a mechanical standpoint, or else you're punishing the player for choosing that race.

Wolfwood2
2007-08-14, 10:04 AM
Also, Endurance as a bonus feat sounds great to me. I love the feat Diehard, but I rarely get it because the Endurance pre-req is so useless. A larger percentage of Half-Orcs wth these rules would want to take Diehard, even casters it's great for, it basically gives you +11 hp (10 negatives, plus you can do stuff at 0hp too).

Endurance as a bonus feat also discourages half-orcs from being rangers, which is something they'd otherwise be decent at. Since rangers already get Endurance as a bonus feat at thrid level, it's bound to feel like a waste of a racial ability.

Dhavaer
2007-08-14, 10:07 AM
original post deleted

I don't wish to know that.

brian c
2007-08-14, 11:46 AM
Endurance as a bonus feat also discourages half-orcs from being rangers, which is something they'd otherwise be decent at. Since rangers already get Endurance as a bonus feat at thrid level, it's bound to feel like a waste of a racial ability.

This is of course a house rule, but whenever someone gets a bonus feat that they already have I give them another feat, DM's discretion that it's not too powerful (you can't take Shock Trooper).

Matthew
2007-08-14, 04:33 PM
Apparently, you can do something similar to that in the PHB2 Retraining Rules.

MinusInnocence
2007-08-14, 04:48 PM
In my game half-orcs have +2 Intimidate, the orc double-axe as a racial weapon proficiency (just like dwarves and gnomes with waraxes and hooked hammers) and Favored Class: Any.

I felt like the half-elf was the most similar to the half-orc in that they were each one step away from humans. Even with my additions the entry for half-orcs in the PHB would be a good deal shorter than the one for half-elves but having a bonus to Strength is substantial enough to tip the scales. I think I made progress, at least.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-08-14, 04:53 PM
If there so balanced with nature make it

+2 str +2 wis -2 int -2 cha

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 09:44 PM
In my game half-orcs have +2 Intimidate, the orc double-axe as a racial weapon proficiency (just like dwarves and gnomes with waraxes and hooked hammers) and Favored Class: Any.

I completely rewrote gnomes for my game... and the first thing to go was the stupid hooked hammer.

StickMan
2007-08-14, 10:59 PM
I've been using this write up for awhile and find it to be balanced. No the natural armor is not over powered and I'll tell you why if you ask.
Half-Orc
Humanoid (Orc)
+2Str, -2Int, -2Cha.
Darkvision: 60feet.
4 extra Skill points at first lvl, 1 extra each additional lvl.
+1 to Natural Armor.
+2 Heal, +2 Survival.

SensFan
2007-08-14, 11:06 PM
I've been using this write up for awhile and find it to be balanced. No the natural armor is not over powered and I'll tell you why if you ask.
Half-Orc
Humanoid (Orc)
+2Str, -2Int, -2Cha.
Darkvision: 60feet.
4 extra Skill points at first lvl, 1 extra each additional lvl.
+1 to Natural Armor.
+2 Heal, +2 Survival.
I'll bite.