Mystic Theurge w/o level loss help?

[ChuckBarrington]

So, I recently asked for some help and got answers about a mounted archer and wanted to know if the wonderful people of this forum could help with this little conundrum.

My DM is allowing a form of half-gestalt that can give us a level of another class every even level of base class in exchange for taking a 40% experience penalty and not being able to multiclass. Because mystic theurge advances both types of spellcasting, he's ruled that it stacks with the half-gestalt.

So if I say, take ten levels in cleric, I'll have 5 levels of wizard, ripe for going into mystic theurge for the next 10 and ending up with Cleric 20 Wizard 20 spellcasting.

He's allowing rebuilding from PHB II up to 12th level and we're only level 2/3 right now, so if I need to, I can change what I have except race, which is warforged with mithral skin because I love them. I'd planned on going the buffer route so as not to break everything too much. Can we make this happen?

[AvatarVecna]

So, I recently asked for some help and got answers about a mounted archer and wanted to know if the wonderful people of this forum could help with this little conundrum.

My DM is allowing a form of half-gestalt that can give us a level of another class every even level of base class in exchange for taking a 40% experience penalty and not being able to multiclass. Because mystic theurge advances both types of spellcasting, he's ruled that it stacks with the half-gestalt.

So if I say, take ten levels in cleric, I'll have 5 levels of wizard, ripe for going into mystic theurge for the next 10 and ending up with Cleric 20 Wizard 20 spellcasting.

He's allowing rebuilding from PHB II up to 12th level and we're only level 2/3 right now, so if I need to, I can change what I have except race, which is warforged with mithral skin because I love them. I'd planned on going the buffer route so as not to break everything too much. Can we make this happen?

The intended entry into Mystic Theurge is Cleric 3/Wizard 3, which normally takes until 6th level, letting you enter at 7th. This is unoptimal for a number of reasons, but the half-gestalt here will make things easier even in this worst-case scenario involving no early entry...but no need to assume a lack of early entry. Using the half-gestalt levels to advance your secondary casting is nice, but not quite nice enough. Step one, use Heighten Spell+Versatile Spellcaster to make your first four levels look like Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1//Cleric 1/X 1. What X is depends on what path you want to take, and how lenient your DM is on this whole thing.

If the DM is willing to let you get away with such shenanigans, X should be Wilderness Rogue, you should be an Elf subrace that gets an Int or Wis bonus (Grey Elf is core, so that's my suggestion), and you'll wanna take Endurance as a flaw at lvl 1. With your Int and your new class skills, you can take Wildrunner 1 as your third gestalt level and Arcane Hierophant as your fourth, making your lvl 8 build look like Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 5//Cleric 1/Wilderness Rogue 1/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 1 (which has you casting as a Cleric 7/Wizard 9). Keep taking MT and AH until you run out of MT (Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10//Cleric 1/WR 1/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 3, casting as Cleric 14/Wizard 16), taking Least Legacy as your lvl 12 feat, then switch AH over to the main track while jumping into Legacy Champion on the gestalt track (Wizard 3/MT 10/AH +1//Cleric 1/WR 1/Wildrunner 1/AH 3/Legacy Champion 1, casting as Cleric 15/Wizard 17), continuing that until you hit lvl 20. Use the Legacy Champion abilities to continue Mystic Theurge casting progression. Your lvl 20 build should look something like Wizard 3/MT 10/AH +7//Cleric 1/WR 1/Wildrunner 1/AH 3/LC 4, giving you casting as a Cleric 24/Wizard 26. As a nice side effect, you should have some nice skills (particularly knowledge skills) and your saves should be fantastic, particularly if using fractional.

Maybe your DM has an issue with you getting casting as a Cleric or Wizard of a level higher than your ECL (which you'll start doing on the Wizard side as soon as you take your first AH level at ECL 8, and on the Cleric side as soon as you take your fourth at ECL 14). If this is the case, skip taking Endurance with a flaw at lvl 1 and use your second and third gestalt levels to get Cleric caught up (Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 3//Cleric 3). Spend your next two gestalt levels as you like, but make sure you've taken Legacy Champion 1 before you run out of Mystic Theurge levels (Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10//Cleric 3/X 2/Legacy Champion 1), because this will mean when you leap from MT 10 to LC 2, you can use Legacy Champion to advance Mystic Theurge further and continue the double casting loveliness without being ahead or behind of where a full monostalt caster would be. If you ever get to 20th lvl, don't take Legacy Champion 7; instead, make sure you've taken Uncanny Trickster 1, and then do the same thing we did before, using Uncanny Trickster 2 to advance Mystic Theurge without missing a beat. Your lvl 20 build will probably look something like this: Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion +6/Uncanny Trickster +1//Cleric 3/Legacy Champion 1/Uncanny Trickster 1/X 5, with X being whatever you want.

[ChuckBarrington]

Not going to lie, this is maybe the second time I've ever played a caster. 90% of that went right over my head, but what I did understand, I can't particularly use. If I do the half-gestalt thing, I can't multiclass, and I can't exactly change my race. I can't add a bunch of half-gestalt classes either. I pick one, and it advances every even level of the base class. The only reason wizard keeps advancing with MT is because it advances my cleric spellcasting.

CLARITY EDIT: Right now I'm a 2nd level cleric. I have one floating level of wizard from the half-gestalt thing. It doesn't count towards character level.

DOUBLE CLARITY EDIT: Right, the half-gestalt thing. Basically, every other level, you get the best of whatever class. BAB, saves, HD, etc. I don't know how different that is from normal gestalt.

[AvatarVecna]

Not going to lie, this is maybe the second time I've ever played a caster. 90% of that went right over my head, but what I did understand, I can't particularly use. If I do the half-gestalt thing, I can't multiclass, and I can't exactly change my race. I can't add a bunch of half-gestalt classes either. I pick one, and it advances every even level of the base class. The only reason wizard keeps advancing with MT is because it advances my cleric spellcasting.

CLARITY EDIT: Right now I'm a 2nd level cleric. I have one floating level of wizard from the half-gestalt thing. It doesn't count towards character level.

DOUBLE CLARITY EDIT: Right, the half-gestalt thing. Basically, every other level, you get the best of whatever class. BAB, saves, HD, etc. I don't know how different that is from normal gestalt.

Hmm. Well, it's still largely viable without multiclassing crap on the gestalt stuff, it's just less capable. No multiclassing also means we can't enter MT until Wizard qualifies, and that's the one early entry is harder for. Basic Cleric 6/MT X//Wizard Y will have to do. This'll get you to lvl 16 before you have to worry about new classes (Cleric 6/MT 10//Wizard 8 for Cleric 16/Wizard 18 casting at ECL 16. Spending the remaining levels on Cleric 4 (and Wizard 2) will complete things well enough if you make it that far (giving you 20/20 casting), although if you're willing to wait at 16/18 for an additional level, Legacy Champion 4 will see you with Cleric 19/Wizard 21 casting at ECL 20. Not sure if that tradeoffs worth the wait, but that's up to you.

Other than it being half-gestalt instead of full, that's how gestalt works, yeah. But honestly, most of that isn't going to matter on a character like this. Take some nice caster feats, browse some optimization guides for nice spell choices, buff your Int/Wis, and support your party. If I was to make any kind of rebuilding suggestion, I'd suggest taking Greyhawk Method to get a lot of extra spells in your Wizard spellbook as time goes on, to give you more options.

[ChuckBarrington]

Right-o, don't think that book is on the allowed list. I was going to do Cloistered Cleric 6/Focused Transmuter 3/MT 10 and end up with 16/16 casting, but then I realized if I stuck with cleric till 10, I wouldn't run out of levels and would end up with 20/20 casting by the end. I was mostly curious about feats, spells, items, etc. What is Greyhawk Method? Thank you for the quick reply.

[AvatarVecna]

Right-o, don't think that book is on the allowed list. I was going to do Cloistered Cleric 6/Focused Transmuter 3/MT 10 and end up with 16/16 casting, but then I realized if I stuck with cleric till 10, I wouldn't run out of levels and would end up with 20/20 casting by the end. I was mostly curious about feats, spells, items, etc. What is Greyhawk Method? Thank you for the quick reply.

Hmm, if sources is an issue, Greyhawk Method might not be available. Anyway, "Greyhawk Method" is a regional feat from Dragon Magazine #315 available only to Prepared Arcane casters operating in the Greyhawk setting (and thus, not available in other settings unless your DM is lenient about this requirement). At every level you would gain casting in an Prepared Arcane caster class (such as Wizard or a PrC advancing Wizard), starting with the level you took the feat at, you gain 4 additional spells in your spellbook beyond the standard number. The earliest you could take this feat is lvl 3, so your first wizard level would go without the additional spells. Another feat you may wish to consider is Insightful Reflexes from Complete Adventurer, which will make your Reflex save based on your Int rather than your Dex (a nice upgrade to your worst save); for similar reasons, a weasel familiar may prove helpful.

Because you're intending to play a buff caster with tons of spells slots, you don't really need to worry about making your DC higher unless you want some debuffing/blasting/BFC on the side. And with how many slots you've got, investing some feats into metamagic would be fantastic once you get enough slots and spell levels to have use for them. Taking Quicken Spell as soon as you become capable of Quickening worthwhile spells (likely 9th lvl, since that's when you'll get 5th lvl slots for both classes). Extend Spell, Chain Spell, Twin Spell, and Persistent Spell are also very nice for buffing purposes. Since you're going transmuter, Spell Focus might not help you very much for buffing purposes, but it'll definitely help you in that it grants access to the feat Ability Enhancer (from Dragon Compendium). If you possess that feat, then whenever you cast a Transmutation spell that grants an Enhancement bonus to attributes, that bonus is (or those bonuses are) increased by +2; Fox's Cunning would grant Int +6, while Bite Of The Werewolf would grant Str +4/Dex +6/Con +6. Additionally, if your DM is cool with such things, you could take Divine Metamagic for one of your metamagic feats in order to spend Turn Undead attempts instead of extra spells levels to cast the metamagic'd spell, but many consider this rather overpowered (particularly when used with Persistent Spell); if you go this route, you might also find value in spending a feat or two on Extra Turning to be able to use this ability more often. Obviously, all of these suggestions are too many feats to really take on the same build (at least, at this level of optimization), so you'll need to pick which ones you want to use.

For spells, there's simply too much to go over in a quick post (not that this has been quick to type out anyway, but you get what I mean :smalltongue:), so instead I'll link to optimization guides that go into much more detail on these things: Treantmonk has a good Wizard handbook (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471542-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-Being-a-God-in-D-amp-D-3-5-(Treantmonklvl20-CantripN-Tsuyoshi)) which goes over spells from many sources in exhaustive detail (and, usefully, by spell school), AfterCrescent made a Cleric Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=694.0) with a spell section that's more of a general list of good cleric spells by level rather than a discussion of all the spells and what they're useful for (it's something, which is nice enough), while Matau99 has put together a list of every spell there is (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469874-Ultimate-Spell-List) by class and level (which is helpful for giving you a point to start researching, but isn't great for figuring out what spells are good or bad). Fortunately, bad choices one day in the early levels have no effect on spell choice any other day (unlike Wizard putting spells in his spellbook), so going with the general spells provided by the first source will suffice for now until you've had time to look further into a more focused party-buffing cleric spell list. There's no doubt been dozens of threads asking after advice for such a build on this site alone; googling "buff cleric advice" or "buffer cleric optimization" or "cleric party buffer" or similar such things should yield interesting thread results.

[thethird]

Why not use archivist instead of cleric? (Archivist is divine wizard that gets access to all divine spells; and has nice class features which would benefit from being advanced on your half gestalt).

If you like knowing things and an archivist / wizard probably leans that way. Look at Urban Savant to progress wizard once you are done with MT. Another feat that is probably thematic would be knowledge devotion.

Urban Savant + Archivist gives buffs to your allies because you know stuff about what you are fighting (and then on top you put spells).

[ChuckBarrington]

I definitely would have gone archivist had it been in an allowed book. It would have allowed me to just pump int like a champion. I believe Cityscape is allowed, though I'm not sure how long we'll be in cities, towns, etc. It does seem useful if we are, but if I don't foresee it happening, I'll stick with my original plan of Cleric 10/MT 10. I'm going to check out each of those guides, and pore over the spell list for a bit.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, at level 6 you should nativly qualify for MT due to being Cleric 6 // Wizard 3. This means you have a very natural build of Cleric 6 / MT 10 // wizard 8. Now, your wizard casting advancement and MT wizard casting advancement do NOT STACK, so you are only a wizard of 13 spellcaster level at 16, not bad but not the 18 you could be if they stacked. This still isn't bad at all. You cannot multiclass out of wizard per your DM's rules, so you have to stick it out.

What you DO get is the really nice 5th level class feature for the wizard class. I suggest you attempt to get access to complete champion and the Spontaneous divination ACF for wizard. Double check, but this class feature should apply to your cleric casting as well, allowing you to never again prep a divination spell of any kind. Clerics have some really nice divination buffs like Divine Insight that grant really flexible bonuses.

[ChuckBarrington]

That's the thing. I talked with the GM. I told him exactly what would happen if they stacked. He told me they stacked for this purpose. So every two levels in MT, I get 3 wizard levels. If I go into MT immediately, and stuck with it until 16th, I'd have 16th level casting in both classes. If I wait until Cleric 10 and then go into MT, at 20 I'd have 20th level casting in both.

[AvatarVecna]

That's the thing. I talked with the GM. I told him exactly what would happen if they stacked. He told me they stacked for this purpose. So every two levels in MT, I get 3 wizard levels. If I go into MT immediately, and stuck with it until 16th, I'd have 16th level casting in both classes. If I wait until Cleric 10 and then go into MT, at 20 I'd have 20th level casting in both.

Yes, that's the point: if you go Cleric 6/Mystic Theurge 10//Wizard 8, you'll be a 16th lvl character with casting as a Cleric 16/Wizard 16. If you go Cleric 10/Mystic Theurge 6//Wizard 8, you'll be a 16th lvl character with casting as a Cleric 16/Wizard 14. The reason it looks worse is because you're comparing a 16th lvl character and a 20th lvl character, and saying the 20th is better. Yes, of course it's better, it's got four more levels under its belt.

If you go Cleric 6/Mystic Theurge 10/Cleric +4//Wizard 10, you will have casting as a Cleric 20/Wizard 20 at 20th lvl, the same as if you'd gone Cleric 10/MT 10 rather than splitting your cleric levels. The only difference is that, because you didn't enter Mystic Theurge as early as possible, your wizard casting will be slower than it could be.

[ChuckBarrington]

I see your point about comparing a 20th level to a 16th level character. Obviously it's going to be better. I was doing the math on paper, and I screwed up where wizard advanced twice because of the stacking. Thank you for catching that, I would have delayed for no reason.

EDIT: I'm actually seeing wizard outpace cleric levels starting at 14th level. Please let me know if I messed up the class math again.

[animewatcha]

Hmm, if sources is an issue, Greyhawk Method might not be available. Anyway, "Greyhawk Method" is a regional feat from Dragon Magazine #315 available only to Prepared Arcane casters operating in the Greyhawk setting (and thus, not available in other settings unless your DM is lenient about this requirement). At every level you would gain casting in an Prepared Arcane caster class (such as Wizard or a PrC advancing Wizard), starting with the level you took the feat at, you gain 4 additional spells in your spellbook beyond the standard number. The earliest you could take this feat is lvl 3, so your first wizard level would go without the additional spells. Another feat you may wish to consider is Insightful Reflexes from Complete Adventurer, which will make your Reflex save based on your Int rather than your Dex (a nice upgrade to your worst save); for similar reasons, a weasel familiar may prove helpful.



Am I getting this right in that a elf wizard with a flaw that has collegiate wizard and Greyhawk Method gets 8 spells per level?

[AvatarVecna]

I see your point about comparing a 20th level to a 16th level character. Obviously it's going to be better. I was doing the math on paper, and I screwed up where wizard advanced twice because of the stacking. Thank you for catching that, I would have delayed for no reason.

EDIT: I'm actually seeing wizard outpace cleric levels starting at 14th level. Please let me know if I messed up the class math again.





ECL
Side A
Side B
Cleric CL
Wizard CL


1
Cleric 1
-
1
-


2
Cleric 2
Wizard 1
2
1


3
Cleric 3
-
3
1


4
Cleric 4
Wizard 2
4
2


5
Cleric 5
-
5
2


6
Cleric 6
Wizard 3
6
3


7
Mystic Theurge 1
-
7
4


8
Mystic Theurge 2
Wizard 4
8
6


9
Mystic Theurge 3
-
9
7


10
Mystic Theurge 4
Wizard 5
10
9


11
Mystic Theurge 5
-
11
10


12
Mystic Theurge 6
Wizard 6
12
12


13
Mystic Theurge 7
-
13
13


14
Mystic Theurge 8
Wizard 7
14
15


15
Mystic Theurge 9
-
15
16


16
Mystic Theurge 10
Wizard 8
16
18


17
Cleric 7
-
17
18


18
Cleric 8
Wizard 9
18
19


19
Cleric 9
-
19
19


20
Cleric 10
Wizard 10
20
20







Am I getting this right in that a elf wizard with a flaw that has collegiate wizard and Greyhawk Method gets 8 spells per level?

Maybe. It's been the subject of debate before, because people can be persnickety. So the basic gist of the two feats are that Collegiate Wizard changes the number of spells you get per level, while Greyhawk Method increases the number of spells you get per level; additionally, both feats have a "Normal:" section that describes how things are without the feat usually.

So, part of the reason why some people interpret this as not stacking is order of operations issues: you get X spells per level, and GM increases X to a new value, while CW changes X to X1. If you apply GM first, and then apply CW, you're changing X+4 to X1, which is still just X1 rather than X1+4. Of course, this doesn't pose a problem if you apply CW before GM.

Another part of the reason is a similar issue to some ACF combos: because both feats have the "Normal:" section, it's essentially like they're replacing the same thing, which is a no-no. Still, I'm pretty sure this falls more under "this feels illegal" rather than "this definitely breaks the rules", but I'm not sure, because this isn't the same situation as ACFs that give up the same thing, which is the closest but still not perfect comparison. Obviously, whether this is a solid argument by RAW or not, it's a decent argument for the intention being that they can't stack, and I could see a DM reasonably ruling either way.

A couple more notes on this: if your DM won't let you take both, but will let you take either, you're probably better off with Greyhawk Method, since it applies to any level advancing your Wizard casting rather than just Wizard levels (so PrCs are a go), and because it expands your Wizard bonus feat list a bit. Of course, it's also limited to Greyhawk, so unless your DM is willing to ignore regional stuff, wizards of other worlds will have to be content with Collegiate Wizard.

A few other things you can throw into the mix are Elven Generalist Wizard ACF (which gives an extra spell in spellbook per wizard-advancing level and an extra slot at the highest level you can cast, at the expense of being able to specialize), and Aerenal Arcanist feat (Eberron regional feat giving one extra spell in spellbook per wizard level. You can combine Elven Generalist with CW or GM (or both), and you can combine AA with CW (although not GM unless your DM is playing fast and lose with regional requirements). If your DM is easy like that, take a couple flaws to have all three feats at lvl 1, and start the game with 16 1st lvl spells, getting another 10 spells at every other level, without paying a single copper piece.

[ChuckBarrington]

Vecna, thanks for confirming my math. Now that I know it ends up the same, I won't have to wait til Cleric 10. Can't do Greyhawk method, dragon magazines are most assuredly not on the allowed list. Probably because of things like the Greyhawk method. Collegiate Wizard is looking sexy as hell, but then I give up my mithral skin. Probably be worth it though. Spells will make up for most of that.