Grappling Rules

[Yahzi]

You guys were a big help with my Swimming check discussion, so here's another.

Grapples. They're far too confusing and dice-rolling. Here's my simplified rules. These are a bit different, in that I think once you're pinned, you're boned. Sure, you can watch the wrestlers reversing positions and all, but that's only because they haven't gotten the pin yet. Once they do, that's it; the fight is over.

Also, it's really, really hard to prevent a grapple. If a trained grappler wants to grapple, you're going to grapple. At best you get one good hit on him on the way in. Now here's the thing: in MMA, one hit probably doesn't end the fight. You punch him, he tackles you, and we're off to the races. But if you've got a sword or a knife in your hand, that one hit could very well be all it takes.

Sure, high-level fighters can suck up a hit to grapple someone, but that's fine. High-level fighters get to do that.

Under these rules you would charge into someone, they'd get a free swing, then on their next turn they'd get a chance to Escape, and then you could pin them. That seems reasonable to me. And a lot less dicey. What do you guys think?


GRAPPLING
To initiate a grapple, move into the target’s square. The target gets a free AoO (even if they have already used on this turn), unless they are prone.

If you have Improved Grapple and the AoO hits, you still initiate a grapple (assuming the damage from the hit does not kill you). If you do not have Improved Grapple and the AoO hits, then you end your turn without grappling.

If you succeed in initiating a grapple, on the following turns you and the target choose from these options:

Attack Make an attack roll with either your unarmed attack or a single light weapon. If you have multiple attacks from BAB you may use all of them. Shields do not provide any AC while you are in a grapple but armor and dexterity still do.

Pin Make an opposed STR check with a -8 to your roll. If you have Improved Grapple, the penalty is only -4. If your target is one size category larger, you take another -4; you cannot pin a target two size categories larger. If your opponent is one or more size categories smaller you gain a +4. If you succeed, the target is now helpless: -4 AC, no DEX bonus, and they cannot take any actions, including speech, unless you let them. The pin lasts until you choose the Escape option. On your successive turns you may choose other options and still maintain the pin.

Drag Make an opposed STR check, with a -4 to your roll if you are smaller or a +4 if you are larger. Whichever grappler has the most legs gains another +4. If you succeed, you move yourself and the target up to ½ your movement. A pinned opponent cannot resist being dragged.

Escape Make an opposed STR check, with a -4 if you are smaller or a +4 if you are larger. If you succeed, you move into an adjacent square and the grapple is over. If you were prone, you still are. You (or your target) may choose to fail this roll if you want to let the other person escape and end the grapple.

Trip Make a trip attack, but without provoking an AoO. If you succeed, choose whether you will maintain the grapple and become prone as well, or whether you will leave the grapple by putting the target prone in an adjacent square and remaining standing. If your opponent trips you in turn, they get to make the same choice. If you and the target are already prone, you cannot Trip.

Other Use a magic item that does not require anything more than a code word, cast a 1-action spell with no somatic components (but requires a Concentration check), shout a message, or draw a light weapon.

[Elkad]

I don't see anything wildly out of balance there.
I'm sure someone can figure out how to TO/break your rules, but that's no different than any other rule.

2 points.

One, I think BAB should apply to grapple checks.
Two, what about natural attacks? You should get ALL of them in a grapple. Anyone who's ever tried to grab an angry cat can testify that you are going to have to deal with 5 simultaneous attacks, not just one.

Edit: Third point.
Drag and more legs bonus. Need something about grappling when your legs aren't applicable to the situation. Swimming, Flying (except air walk?), etc.

[Necroticplague]

Grapples. They're far too confusing and dice-rolling.

I never really understood this sentiment. Grapples aren't much different from Tripping: touch attack, opposed check, apply condition.

[Goaty14]

I never really understood this sentiment. Grapples aren't much different from Tripping: touch attack, opposed check, apply condition.

Me neither, most character sheets should have an area for the grapple modifier. You want to get something done? Grapple check. and that's it (unless you're trying to cast a spell while in a grapple during which you have to make a concentration check DC 20+Spell Level)

[Yahzi]

One, I think BAB should apply to grapple checks.
Doh. Of course. I'll change that. Thanks!


Two, what about natural attacks? You should get ALL of them in a grapple.
I agree; I'll make that clear. The Attack option is the Full Attack option.


Need something about grappling when your legs aren't applicable to the situation. Swimming, Flying (except air walk?), etc.
Hmm. I might just skip that; presumably the DM extrapolate. Less words is better.


I never really understood this sentiment
I read the grapple rules while I was writing up mine, and I was like, "No way, this is just too much to remember and roll" all over again.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I read the grapple rules while I was writing up mine, and I was like, "No way, this is just too much to remember and roll" all over again.

How often do grapples even come up?

I think they've happened about three times at my table, and it's not that hard to just flip to the page (or just google the grappling (http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/112745/grapple_flow_chart-01.png) flowchart (http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/112746/grapple_flow_chart-02.png)) and do it, rather than rewrite everything.

Here's another one (http://dnd.dracones.de/Grapple.svg) if you need it.

[Deadline]

So you've removed the BAB (i.e. the skill and training) from the Pin action, and eliminated the use for Escape Artist entirely? Sucks to be anyone who isn't a hulking brute in a grapple I suppose.

Also, add me to the camp who doesn't have any trouble with the Grappling rules as-is. Touch Attack->Grapple Check isn't tough for me to remember, and the various options you have while in a Grapple aren't difficult to remember either.

It's certainly not the mess that the 2nd Edition Grapple rules were either.

[Yahzi]

So you've removed the BAB (i.e. the skill and training) from the Pin action, and eliminated the use for Escape Artist entirely?
I'm adding BAB back in. I'm not actually sure Escape Artist makes sense; was Houdini a champion wrestler? They're actually very different skills.


Sucks to be anyone who isn't a hulking brute in a grapple I suppose.
Well... that's generally true of all D&D combat. Your ability to hit people is based on STR, for fundamentally incomprehensible reasons.


It's certainly not the mess that the 2nd Edition Grapple rules were either.
True. I still find it difficult, though, because there are so many times you have to roll.

[Mordaedil]

How is this different from the grapple rule as it already is, except that you apparently don't need to land a touch attack (grab) to grapple?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm adding BAB back in. I'm not actually sure Escape Artist makes sense; was Houdini a champion wrestler? They're actually very different skills.
I think Escape Artist is intended to be used by small, high-dexterity creatures to escape from very large grapplers--it's a purely defensive technique. Obviously it has nothing to do with being a champion wrestler, because a champion will invest in offense (+grapple), which doubles as defense. But for a pixie, it's easier to pump EA and slip through a giant's fingers than to overcome a four-category size difference.