What's it like playing a Mystic Theurge?

[NecroDancer]

So for a 10th level one shot I'm building a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4. I know it's going to be ****ty missing out on 3 caster levels but that's why I'm playing one for a one shot.

I was wondering if anyone ever played a Mystic Theurge as a main character, if so what's it like? Did you play a support caster mainly? Was the billions of Spell Slots worth it? And most importantly, did you have fun?

[Eldariel]

I mean, you're in no disadvantage in an equal party. Mystic Theurge is more than fine with all non-full casters. You'll feel like the omnicaster with the ability to do anything.

In a party with full casters though, you'll feel inferior; they're casting Black Tentacles and the like while you're still stuck with Glitterdust as hour best shot. It sucks the most 5-7 where you're still stuck with 2nd level spells. Level 10 is merciful in that you're only a spell level behind.

[Elkad]

Depends on the party.

If it isn't full of T1 classes, you'll be just fine. You are 2 levels (or one spell level) behind a sorc, which isn't a terrible place to be in a T3 game.
In a game with lots of encounters/day, you'll shine.

If the whole party is T2/T1, optimize harder than them and you'll still be OK. T1 doesn't really get going till 10th or so anyway, and in a one-shot that'll hardly matter.

[Anxe]

My experience was that you feel just as useful as everyone else. The lower spell levels aren't that noticeable. The extra spell slots are noticeable. In a caster party everyone else was low on juice and I felt like I could do twice the encounters we'd faced.

[CharonsHelper]

It could be pretty dang good for the very short time Pathfinder let you count Spell-like abilities as spells for pre-requisites. Then you were only 1 level behind in (generally) arcane and 3 behind for divine.

But - for a more standard one it would depend upon the group & GM. If you have the "5 minute adventuring day" those extra spell slots won't do much for you.

[ATHATH]

If you can get into Mystic Theurge early with, say, the Precocious Apprentice feat, the Southern Magician feat, and/or having one of the sides of your Mystic Theurge be a Sha'ir (which can innately cast both arcane AND divine spells), it's pretty good.

[Vizzerdrix]

If you can get into Mystic Theurge early with, say, the Precocious Apprentice feat, the Southern Magician feat, and/or having one of the sides of your Mystic Theurge be a Sha'ir (which can innately cast both arcane AND divine spells), it's pretty good.

Ill second this. Or if you use a fast progression on one side it works well too.

[Afgncaap5]

Mystic Theurge was one of the most fun classes I've ever played. Missing out on bigger spells might've been rough, but I *never ran out of spells*, and there was something delightful about that.

[WeaselGuy]

I played a Lesser Tiefling Shadowcaster/Ur-Priest/Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge for a while in a 12+ campaign. It was fun. I was basically a nope-machine for every enemy caster we came across, and used the divine side to buff the party. Very much a utility caster, but the party loved me and I felt extremely useful.

[Mr Adventurer]

Something else to consider might be that if you're ending every adventuring day with unused spell slots - it could be that those spell slots may as well not exist.

[WeaselGuy]

Something else to consider might be that if you're ending every adventuring day with unused spell slots - it could be that those spell slots may as well not exist.

If you're ending the day with spell slots, then you need to reevaluate your spells known list, and add in some utility spells to compensate. There are numerous ways to make low level slots matter, and tons of buff spells and quality of life spells that can eat up those slots too.

[gkathellar]

If you're ending the day with spell slots, then you need to reevaluate your spells known list, and add in some utility spells to compensate. There are numerous ways to make low level slots matter, and tons of buff spells and quality of life spells that can eat up those slots too.

That depends on the campaign.

[TotallyNotEvil]

If you can get into Mystic Theurge early with, say, the Precocious Apprentice feat, the Southern Magician feat, and/or having one of the sides of your Mystic Theurge be a Sha'ir (which can innately cast both arcane AND divine spells), it's pretty good.

Somehow, I've never heard of the Sha'ir solution before. So very neat, you'd only lose a level at most.

[Florian]

I was wondering if anyone ever played a Mystic Theurge as a main character, if so what's it like? Did you play a support caster mainly? Was the billions of Spell Slots worth it? And most importantly, did you have fun?

I had fun playing a very straight MT based on Cleric/Wizard, with the Apprentice feat as only shenanigans, in a longer running campaign that went from lvl 4 to 15.
I´ve got to admit that this is one of the most memorable characters that I´ve ever played and I had great fun doing so, even though I had a hard time adapting to the relative lag in spells at the start.
What´s it like? If you´re methodical at BFC and buffing, it´s great as the relevant spells don´t need scaling or CL doesn´t really matter.

[Nifft]

So for a 10th level one shot I'm building a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4. I know it's going to be ****ty missing out on 3 caster levels but that's why I'm playing one for a one shot.

At that level, where you've got level 4 spells from both lists, I think you're going to feel alright.

The painful levels are when you are initially taking your 2nd casting class, and the first few MT levels are also painful -- when you finish MT 1, you've just spent FOUR levels where your highest spell level is 2nd. This is exactly the "glitterdust vs. black tentacles" level.

ECL 10 is a good place for a Mystic Theurge. The other party members are casting 5th level spells, and you're casting 4th level spells. That's not too awful.

Have fun!

[ATHATH]

Somehow, I've never heard of the Sha'ir solution before. So very neat, you'd only lose a level at most.
Do keep in mind that if you PrC out of Sha'ir, you'll only be able to keep your Sha'ir spells for a few hours before they dissipate/disappear. Thus, I recommend making your Sha'ir side your utility side and your other side (maybe a Sorcerer?) your blasting/combat side (take Practiced Spellcaster for your weaker side, of course).

Actually, thinking about it... If you use Sha'ir as one side and Sorcerer as the other side, you could head into Ultimate Magus after Mystic Theurge.

[Thurbane]

The right combo can be fairly potent and competent.

Favored Soul 2/Warmage 1/MT 10/Favored Soul +6/Warmage +1, for instance. Using Versatile Spellcaster/Heighten Spell for early entry.

FS 18 casting gets 9ths.
Warmage 12 casting gets 6ths (7ths with versatile Spellcaster).

...it adds some versatility to FS, and for the loss of two casting levels, is well worth it IMHO.

[magicalmagicman]

You play mystic theurge to melee or shoot stuff, not to cast spells, relying on cleric proficiencies and buffs and wizard BFC.

Or you play mystic theurge to advance dual fast progression PrCs to get double nines at level 19 or 20.

Or you are in TO territory by spamming early entry shenanigans.

If you're doing something other than the above you're playing mystic theurge wrong.

[RedMage125]

The right combo can be fairly potent and competent.

Favored Soul 2/Warmage 1/MT 10/Favored Soul +6/Warmage +1, for instance. Using Versatile Spellcaster/Heighten Spell for early entry.


I'm reasonably certain that's not RAW legal.

While Versatile Spellcaster+Heightened Spell certainly allows one to burn 2 1st level spell slots to cast a Heightened 1st level spell known, I don't think that counts as "able to cast 2nd level spells" as far as prerequisites. The save DC may be the same as a 2nd level spell, but it remains a Heightened 1st level spell.

[Thurbane]

I'm reasonably certain that's not RAW legal.

While Versatile Spellcaster+Heightened Spell certainly allows one to burn 2 1st level spell slots to cast a Heightened 1st level spell known, I don't think that counts as "able to cast 2nd level spells" as far as prerequisites. The save DC may be the same as a 2nd level spell, but it remains a Heightened 1st level spell.

The RAW of this has been debated back and forth ever since the Versatile Spellcaster feat was published. Most RAW arguments are in favour of it working, but at the end of the day, it depends on the DM in question.


Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

[RedMage125]

The RAW of this has been debated back and forth ever since the Versatile Spellcaster feat was published. Most RAW arguments are in favour of it working, but at the end of the day, it depends on the DM in question.

I'm a bit of a stickler, so I would be on the side that says that "effective level" is not the same as "level". Especially given that it goes on to specify that "effects dependent on spell level...are calculated according to the heightened level". To me, that is clarification on what is meant in the first sentence by "effective level".
It's not even the part of me that-as a DM-seeks to keep some semblance of balance. The way I read that text, it is not RAW legal. And this is the same "rules lawyer" part of me that acknowledges that the rules technically support the "heal by drowning" dysfunction.

[Nifft]

The most cheesy accelerated entry that I'd allow would probably be: Cloistered Cleric 3 / Wizard 1 / MT ++


... with either Southern Magician or Alternate Spell Source.

One of those is setting-specific, the other is Dragon Magazine content, so in many of my campaigns, even that wouldn't be legal.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Honestly, I find Southern Magician and Alrernate Spell Source perfectly neat entry methods.

Precocious Apprentice is more game-y, but I think it might even be a downgrade.

[ATHATH]

Or you are in TO territory by spamming early entry shenanigans.
Early entry into Mystic Theurge isn't really TO, in my opinion. TO tends to involve infinite or nigh-infinite loops, and generally gives a character power on par with or greater than a demigod, if not a full deity. An alternative definition for TO (which covers drown-healing and doing stuff while dead because "the rules don't say that you/I can't") is stuff that no sane DM should ever allow at their table (unless it's a gimmick session/campaign revolving around TO). PO, on the other hand, just lets characters hit above what their level might indicate in the field(s) that they are focusing on.

[Nifft]

Precocious Apprentice is more game-y, but I think it might even be a downgrade. Ooo, good call.

You'd still need 3 levels of the Divine class, which puts you at Arcane 1 / Divine 3, just like the other two methods that I'd approve.

Yeah, I'd probably approve Precocious Apprentice, too.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The RAW of this has been debated back and forth ever since the Versatile Spellcaster feat was published. Most RAW arguments are in favour of it working, but at the end of the day, it depends on the DM in question.

If you want a rock solid entry method Improved Sigil (Krau) works.



Yeah, I'd probably approve Precocious Apprentice, too.

The biggest argument against Precocious Apprentice denying entry is that it explicitly grants a single level spell you can cast while Mystic Theurge demands spellS. For something like Mystic Theurge though I agree that approving it is a good choice. For general use it is the 3rd weakest theurge class IMHO.

[rel]

Alright, lets see.

I have played a mystic theurge from lvls 7 to 17 (ish this was a while ago).

The two base classes were sorcerer and favored soul. I used an early entry trick and convinced the GM to let me take MT past the standard 10 levels of progression.

I played an almost entirely suport character, the final build was tier 3 purely because the spell selection was so suboptimal.

In general, your weaknesses are lower caster levels that a normal full caster and and a complete lack of class features beyond spellcasting.
This leaves you substantially weaker than a full caster with specialised PRC's even with early entry tricks.

Your strengths are a large number of spell slots and a larger than normal spell list to draw spells from. You have good utility and sustain but a lot less raw power.

I found you NEED a way to get around the action economy. Quicken spell and metamagic cost reducers are the most reliable option and very neccessary. But grab any trick you can.

Closing thoughts; mystic theurge is tricky to build and play but a whole lot of fun if you get it right.

[Nifft]

I found you NEED a way to get around the action economy. Quicken spell and metamagic cost reducers are the most reliable option and very neccessary. But grab any trick you can.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic, p.64) is like a free Quicken for any Standard-action Arcane spell. It doesn't affect Divine spells so you can cast those with your Standard.

[rel]

Absolutely, arcane spellsurge is perfect for a sorceror based mystic theurge. It was a capstone of sorts for my own build.

However OP should note that arcane spellsurge is a 7th level spell so getting access to it in a 10th lvl oneshot will require some effort

[ZamielVanWeber]

Absolutely, arcane spellsurge is perfect for a sorceror based mystic theurge. It was a capstone of sorts for my own build.

However OP should note that arcane spellsurge is a 7th level spell so getting access to it in a 10th lvl oneshot will require some effort

Illumian wizard 3/cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Chameleon 2. You need Able Learner at 1st and are using the rules for Illumian having the human subtype. I recommend wizard because you will need that int for skill points and need to pick domains from cleric that give you Bluff and Disguise. Take Improved Sigil (Krau) at 3rd. Your last feats will be needed to do the trick where you slowly push your Chameleon bonus feat up until it hits 7th level spells. Scribe Arcane Spellsurge into your spellbook manually and enjoy. Assuming your DM does not slap you.

Edit: I just went AFB but I believe Improved Sigil (Krau) and that floating feat to climb up to 7th if you scribe a spell that requires a verbal component for all the intermediary spell levels.

[J-H]

For easier access to action-economy shenanigans, as well as the potential for more durability, Cerebremancer is the same class but with psionics swapped in for divine spellcasting. You lose a lot of the healing versatility, but once you can pick up Schism, you can manifest at ML -6 for free every round.

[NecroDancer]

So I just finished the one shot yesterday. It was really fun being a Mystic Theurge. A big draw was the fact I was only behind by one spell level. I don't think I could be able to play a Mystic Theurge for a long campaign or straight from level one, the spell delay would probably be unbearable.

All in all it was a fun build but probably won't be fun until you get to 3rd level spells.

[Nifft]

For easier access to action-economy shenanigans, as well as the potential for more durability, Cerebremancer is the same class but with psionics swapped in for divine spellcasting. You lose a lot of the healing versatility, but once you can pick up Schism, you can manifest at ML -6 for free every round.

Are there any early-entry tricks?

The best I can see off the top of my head would be Ardent 1 -> take the Practiced Manifester feat -> take Ardent 2, but that's not particularly early, and you only ever get 3 Mantles, AND you don't get the lovely Int synergy that comes from Psion + Wizard.

EDIT:

On second thought, just a Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice -> Psion 3 might be the best route.

One downside of Cerebremancer seems to be a really sparse skill list for an Int-based primary caster, though... I guess you'd want Able Learner, too, so you can keep up your Wizard and Psion skills.

[ATHATH]

Are there any early-entry tricks?

The best I can see off the top of my head would be Ardent 1 -> take the Practiced Manifester feat -> take Ardent 2, but that's not particularly early, and you only ever get 3 Mantles, AND you don't get the lovely Int synergy that comes from Psion + Wizard.

EDIT:

On second thought, just a Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice -> Psion 3 might be the best route.

One downside of Cerebremancer seems to be a really sparse skill list for an Int-based primary caster, though... I guess you'd want Able Learner, too, so you can keep up your Wizard and Psion skills.
Personally, I prefer Mind Mage to Cerebremancer, but Cerebremancer is pretty okay as well.

[supersonic29]

I've never actually gotten to get to the playing part of a Theurge by virtue of campaigns planned, but not played. However, I sure have gotten some cheesy stuff down on paper. What I'd say to do on the spectrum of fun is manage early entry in one of the described ways for each of your classes and go spontaneous casting. If you just loathe sorcerer or something to that effect, well, I guess I can't say I don't understand... but I do think having that massive spell list to pick and choose from as you need in the moment beats preparing all those spells every day. (and actually considering them based on what you're doing mind you, not just picking one kit as your everyday.)

Favored soul is a sweet option, you can squeeze value out of sorcerer given some attention with that one trick... it's some sort of rod that adds to your spells known? You also expand on that by making it some sort of family relic with some rules in BoED or something like that... been a while since I tried to play a sorcerer.

[gkathellar]

Personally, I prefer Mind Mage to Cerebremancer, but Cerebremancer is pretty okay as well.

The Mind Mage from Dragon?

Yeah that PrC is pretty crazy.

[Kobold Esq]

Having played both MT and UM before, honestly the bigger issue is the makeup of the rest of your party. If there are no other tier 1 casters, and the other players lack system mastery, you can have plenty of fun with you excessive spell slots. The DM will be too busy trying not to accidentally kill the core-only twf ranger, and find a way to keep the cleave fighter happy.