Monk/Rogue?

[Westhart]

A bunch of friends started up a campaign, and I want to join but I have never played 5e... and they don't play 3.5. Anyways, I was wondering if a monk/rogue multiclass type is viable, and some pointers (such as race). The game starts at level 1. Thanks!

[smcmike]

Yeah, it works great. Wood Elf is the race for you.

[Westhart]

Thanks! Would you suggest starting with monk or rogue?

[Aett_Thorn]

Yes, Monk/Rogue works very well in this edition. However, you are probably going to want to choose early on which on you want to put more levels into. For instance, if you want to be mostly Monk, with a few levels of Rogue, or if you want to be mostly Rogue, with a few levels of Monk. This is because while they get a lot of different features, they also have some overlap, and getting those features twice does nothing for you (such as Evasion).

A few things to keep in mind, though:

1) Just because Monk allows you to attack with a Spear with Dexterity as your stat does not allow for it to be used with Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack requires you to be using a weapon with the Finesse property (so Short Sword and Dagger will work, but Quarterstaff won't)

2) Similarly, using something like a Rapier to attack with will cause you to lose out on some of the features of the Monk.

3) Monk features mainly work off of Ki, which if you only take a couple of levels of Monk, you won't have a lot of. So just be cognizant of that.


If you're going mostly Rogue, I would just get a few levels in Monk, and go Way of the Shadow to get Shadow Step. This is probably the iconic Monk/Rogue pairing from the Rogue side of things. Because Shadow Step doesn't require Ki to use, it's a great feature to have access to if you're not going heavy into Monk.

For a Monk/Rogue, either Way of the Shadow or Way of the Open hand is probably best (the Four Elements Monk is seen as sub-optimal), with a dip into Rogue for Expertise, Sneak Attack, and some sub-class features. If you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, then Swashbuckler becomes a great subclass to chose, since it basically gives you a free Disengage, which can free up your bonus action for those tasty extra attacks.

[Westhart]

Yes, Monk/Rogue works very well in this edition. However, you are probably going to want to choose early on which on you want to put more levels into. For instance, if you want to be mostly Monk, with a few levels of Rogue, or if you want to be mostly Rogue, with a few levels of Monk. This is because while they get a lot of different features, they also have some overlap, and getting those features twice does nothing for you (such as Evasion).

A few things to keep in mind, though:

1) Just because Monk allows you to attack with a Spear with Dexterity as your stat does not allow for it to be used with Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack requires you to be using a weapon with the Finesse property (so Short Sword and Dagger will work, but Quarterstaff won't)

2) Similarly, using something like a Rapier to attack with will cause you to lose out on some of the features of the Monk.

3) Monk features mainly work off of Ki, which if you only take a couple of levels of Monk, you won't have a lot of. So just be cognizant of that.


If you're going mostly Rogue, I would just get a few levels in Monk, and go Way of the Shadow to get Shadow Step. This is probably the iconic Monk/Rogue pairing from the Rogue side of things. Because Shadow Step doesn't require Ki to use, it's a great feature to have access to if you're not going heavy into Monk.

For a Monk/Rogue, either Way of the Shadow or Way of the Open hand is probably best (the Four Elements Monk is seen as sub-optimal), with a dip into Rogue for Expertise, Sneak Attack, and some sub-class features. If you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, then Swashbuckler becomes a great subclass to chose, since it basically gives you a free Disengage, which can free up your bonus action for those tasty extra attacks.

Well, the goal here was to make a swashbuckler sneak monk type character, primarily rogue... so about 6 levels of (way of the shadow) monk? Also looks like shortsword(s) for her... Now which should I go with first? Monk 1 or rogue 1?

[smcmike]

Well, the goal here was to make a swashbuckler sneak monk type character, primarily rogue... so about 6 levels of (way of the shadow) monk? Also looks like shortsword(s) for her... Now which should I go with first? Monk 1 or rogue 1?

Monk first gives you one extra musical instrument or tool proficiency, and strength saving throws.

Rogue first gives you one extra skill proficiency, proficiency in hand crossbows, longswords, and rapiers, and intelligence saves.

The difference is very small.

[Aett_Thorn]

If it were me, I'd probably go Monk to start. This gives you unarmored AC from the start, as well as a slightly better saving throw pairing (in my opinion) of Dex and Str.

As for races, Wood Elf is great, because you get +2 Dex/+1 Wis, which is a perfect stat mix, as well as 5' more of movement speed, which pairs nicely with Monk. But that might not be the flavor that you want to go with. If you're looking at a more Swashbuckly-feeling, then Human might be good, as well as a Half-Elf.

[Westhart]

hmm half elf does look nice (5e is full of surprises :smallbiggrin:) but I would be losing the mask of the wild... hmm, not sure on which to go with...

[PeteNutButter]

The best race for most builds is variant human with half elf in there for cha based characters.

The human lacks darkvision, but the shadow monk cannot see through his magical darkness regardless.

Due to monk's heavy reliance on ASIs to boost AC, they typically can't afford any feats for a long time. Multiclassing delays your feat progression even further.

Being a variant human fixes that giving you a feat from the start, and effectively the same dex and wisdom boost.

What feat? Mobile. Monks have crud AC and hit points compared to the other martials and can't stand toe to toe with their foes.

Alternatively you could take swashbuckler rogue but that doesn't come online until around level 8-9 depending on when you multuclass. I'd highly recommend getting monk 5 as soon as possible. Extra attack is amazing and stunning strikes is the feature monks get that keeps them from being bad fighters.

[Westhart]

The best race for most builds is variant human with half elf in there for cha based characters.

The human lacks darkvision, but the shadow monk cannot see through his magical darkness regardless.

Due to monk's heavy reliance on ASIs to boost AC, they typically can't afford any feats for a long time. Multiclassing delays your feat progression even further.

Being a variant human fixes that giving you a feat from the start, and effectively the same dex and wisdom boost.

What feat? Mobile. Monks have crud AC and hit points compared to the other martials and can't stand toe to toe with their foes.

Alternatively you could take swashbuckler rogue but that doesn't come online until around level 8-9 depending on when you multuclass. I'd highly recommend getting monk 5 as soon as possible. Extra attack is amazing and stunning strikes is the feature monks get that keeps them from being bad fighters.
Hmm, good point on the human variant... especially since I plan a warlock dip at some point... Thanks!

[Specter]

Most has already been said.

Race: Wood Elf, Variant Human and Feral Tiefling all work out nicely.
Feats: Nothing mandatory. For extra defense, pick Tough or Defensive Duelist, for more utility pick Skilled or Magic Initiate (Druid).
Progression: Start as a Monk for 1 level, then Rogue on the next. After that, I'd reach Monk 5 for Stunning Strike, but Rogue 3 is solid too.
Weapon: shortsword, with a backup ranged.

[Trampaige]

The shadow monk in our campaign is super cool. Keep in mind, on the topic of darkvision, that shadowstep doesn't mix with light sources. You can theoretically hold a bullseye lantern to keep from illuminating yourself, but you can't be in bright light, and you have to be able to see your destination (in dim or darkness) to use it. If you don't have DV, or if most if your party lacks DV, you will be very limited in how you can use it. In a party with 0 light sources, it's amazing - especially if you're using it as a way to get a sneak attack on a solo target. If you have a druid throwing around faerie fire, it's also going to be limited.

Rogues don't care about short rest/long rest dynamics, but monks recover Ki on short rests. This can be a problem in a lot of campaigns, if the DM does short adventuring days (1-2 deadly encounters, or worse) where the paladins and wizards can go HAM and short rest classes, which are balanced on getting refilled a few times per long rest, are at a major disadvantage.

[Easy_Lee]

You want at least shadow monk 6 and rogue 2. I'd get that first. What you do from there is more preference than anything. More rogue levels will mean more damage.

[Joe the Rat]

hmm half elf does look nice (5e is full of surprises :smallbiggrin:) but I would be losing the mask of the wild... hmm, not sure on which to go with...

If you have SCAG for swashbuckler, you also have access to the variant Half-Elf: You trade your bonus skills for one of the elf racial features. Go Half Wood Elf for Mask of the Wild. You'd lose out on the weapon training (not a big deal), and the +5' movement.

[Dalebert]

Darkvision isn't an issue if you're a shadow monk. They can cast Darkvision at 3rd level. Feel free to go variant human if it suits you. Otherwise, I'd say wood elf. +2 dex is nice. It gives you the option to start 17 dex / 16 wis. You can then take a feat thats +1 in either of those at some point. If that's a feat you want, it sorta makes up for variant human... a little. I mean, those feats don't tend to be quite as good of course. Observant can be nice. Athletic fits very well with a monk also.

It's still nice to have the spell as a wood elf. Your whole party is stealthier if you don't have that beacon of a light source. When anyone starts up a light source near my monk, he's all "Nope. Nope! Put that out. Here's some darkvision."

Ghostwise halfling is another option. The telepathy is cool and they also get +2 dex, +1 wis. I'm a fan of lucky myself. I just made a ghostwise monk of the long death 18 / moon druid 2. The monk speed helps make up for the reduced halfling speed.

[bid]

Hmm, good point on the human variant... especially since I plan a warlock dip at some point... Thanks!
Monk is very tight. You cannot wear any armor, which implies Dex16 Wis16 Con14. Starting vuman would be 8 16 14 8 16 10 at best. Cha13 is a distant fantasy.

Both monk / rogue have the same level 7 feature. That's why you'll usually stop earlier.

Starting rogue is a good plan, as it allows you to use a bow for the early levels and gives you an extra skill (over MC into rogue).

[Dalebert]

I agree. I wouldn't try to triple dip. You get spread too thin and miss out on key higher level features. You'll also feel frustrated until some later date when you build finally "comes together".

Now if you want to go the warlock route, shadow monk 18 / warlock 2 is a great combo. It's so good it feels like a prerequisite for shadow monk. Shadow monk features are arguably the best of all the monk archetypes. What balances them out is that most of their stuff goes away in bright light, which can be a lot. Casting Darkness gets around that to some extent but only if you can see through it; hence Devil's Sight.

[BoxANT]

You want to pick which class to go past 6 levels, as both Monk and Rogue get Evasion at 7.

Personally I like

1. Rogue (better skills)
2-6. Monk, to get the extra attack at 5 monk
7-10. Rogue

At this point you're at 5 monk and 5 rogue at level 10. After that, it depends on which way you want to go. I prefer Monk 6 (magic fists) and rogue 14 (more sneak damage wins out overall).

As for which class specializations?

Personally, I like Swashbuckler (can get sneak attack while standing toe to toe), and Way of Tranquility.

Monk 6 - Rogue 14

Ends up doing more DPR than a straight monk or straight rogue.

10d6+15 (monk/rogue) = 50 (58.5 w FoB)
4d10+20 (monk w FoB) = 42
1d8+5 + 11d6 (rogue w rapier/shortsword) = 48

[Westhart]

The shadow monk in our campaign is super cool. Keep in mind, on the topic of darkvision, that shadowstep doesn't mix with light sources. You can theoretically hold a bullseye lantern to keep from illuminating yourself, but you can't be in bright light, and you have to be able to see your destination (in dim or darkness) to use it. If you don't have DV, or if most if your party lacks DV, you will be very limited in how you can use it. In a party with 0 light sources, it's amazing - especially if you're using it as a way to get a sneak attack on a solo target. If you have a druid throwing around faerie fire, it's also going to be limited.

Rogues don't care about short rest/long rest dynamics, but monks recover Ki on short rests. This can be a problem in a lot of campaigns, if the DM does short adventuring days (1-2 deadly encounters, or worse) where the paladins and wizards can go HAM and short rest classes, which are balanced on getting refilled a few times per long rest, are at a major disadvantage.
Yeah, I'll have to see more of the DM's playstyle before I can say anything on the whole rest issue (An interesting dynamic... )

You want at least shadow monk 6 and rogue 2. I'd get that first. What you do from there is more preference than anything. More rogue levels will mean more damage.
Alright.

If you have SCAG for swashbuckler, you also have access to the variant Half-Elf: You trade your bonus skills for one of the elf racial features. Go Half Wood Elf for Mask of the Wild. You'd lose out on the weapon training (not a big deal), and the +5' movement.
Hmm, leaning towards the half elf or elf... variant human is nice but I know two members are already using that (breaking the mold so to peak)

Darkvision isn't an issue if you're a shadow monk. They can cast Darkvision at 3rd level. Feel free to go variant human if it suits you. Otherwise, I'd say wood elf. +2 dex is nice. It gives you the option to start 17 dex / 16 wis. You can then take a feat thats +1 in either of those at some point. If that's a feat you want, it sorta makes up for variant human... a little. I mean, those feats don't tend to be quite as good of course. Observant can be nice. Athletic fits very well with a monk also.

It's still nice to have the spell as a wood elf. Your whole party is stealthier if you don't have that beacon of a light source. When anyone starts up a light source near my monk, he's all "Nope. Nope! Put that out. Here's some darkvision."

Ghostwise halfling is another option. The telepathy is cool and they also get +2 dex, +1 wis. I'm a fan of lucky myself. I just made a ghostwise monk of the long death 18 / moon druid 2. The monk speed helps make up for the reduced halfling speed.
You know, I've never been a big fan of halflings RP wise :smallbiggrin:

Monk is very tight. You cannot wear any armor, which implies Dex16 Wis16 Con14. Starting vuman would be 8 16 14 8 16 10 at best. Cha13 is a distant fantasy.

Both monk / rogue have the same level 7 feature. That's why you'll usually stop earlier.

Starting rogue is a good plan, as it allows you to use a bow for the early levels and gives you an extra skill (over MC into rogue).
Actually, see bottom of post... I got ridiculously good roles XD

I agree. I wouldn't try to triple dip. You get spread too thin and miss out on key higher level features. You'll also feel frustrated until some later date when you build finally "comes together".

Now if you want to go the warlock route, shadow monk 18 / warlock 2 is a great combo. It's so good it feels like a prerequisite for shadow monk. Shadow monk features are arguably the best of all the monk archetypes. What balances them out is that most of their stuff goes away in bright light, which can be a lot. Casting Darkness gets around that to some extent but only if you can see through it; hence Devil's Sight.
Hmm, there is a rogue in the party... so maybe monk/warlock is a good idea... I was thinking using this build (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadow_Ninja_(5e_Optimized_Build)), but convince the DM to allow me to trade out the monks extra attack...

You want to pick which class to go past 6 levels, as both Monk and Rogue get Evasion at 7.

Personally I like

1. Rogue (better skills)
2-6. Monk, to get the extra attack at 5 monk
7-10. Rogue

At this point you're at 5 monk and 5 rogue at level 10. After that, it depends on which way you want to go. I prefer Monk 6 (magic fists) and rogue 14 (more sneak damage wins out overall).

As for which class specializations?

Personally, I like Swashbuckler (can get sneak attack while standing toe to toe), and Way of Tranquility.

Monk 6 - Rogue 14

Ends up doing more DPR than a straight monk or straight rogue.

10d6+15 (monk/rogue) = 50 (58.5 w FoB)
4d10+20 (monk w FoB) = 42
1d8+5 + 11d6 (rogue w rapier/shortsword) = 48
Hmm that does look good.

Alright here is some more of the character:
Well, we were using rolls for ability scores (which I usually prefer not to) an the DM rolled for everyone one at a time... My rolls? 6, 8, 5, 7, 10, 12 Luckily the DM rerolled 'em and I got really lucky on the reroll: 18, 10, 14, 18, 9, 15. So something like this (depending on race):

Str: 9 (*10)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Cha: 15 (*16)
Dex: 18
Wis: 18
*with racial adjustment
Bonus Feat



Str: 9 (*10)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Cha: 15 (*16)
Dex: 18
Wis: 18
In addition I get a +2 on one other skill... Dex or Wis?
Racial Abilities



Str: 8
Con: 12
Int: 13
Cha: 16
Dex: 18 (*20)
Wis: 15 (16*)
*with racial adjustment
Racial Abilities

[Citan]

Well, the goal here was to make a swashbuckler sneak monk type character, primarily rogue... so about 6 levels of (way of the shadow) monk? Also looks like shortsword(s) for her... Now which should I go with first? Monk 1 or rogue 1?
Hi!
First things first, this dual-class works extremely well.
Note though that you will have to decide early which class to make the "main", or rather which features you really like.

Because all Monk archetypes are not as easy to make it useful in a multiclass, and since many Monk feature rely on Ki, you generally want a decent pool. With that said...

Monk features that you want.
- Every feature until archetype (so level 3). Except Unarmored depending on Rogue archetype.
- Extra Attack (because one more chance of applying Sneak Attack from Rogue).
Everything beyond that can be worth or not, depending on how you envision your character.

As for Monk archetypes...
- Shadow is the easiest to work with: its feature consume low Ki, don't depend on your Wisdom, and help infiltration greatly. The 6th level can offer you a good mobility feature if you know how to enable it often (because you need two "dim light" areas).
- 4 Elements Monk can provide a few interesting features, but consumes much ki, and low level features don't synergize with Sneak Attack. Unless you plan on a build with Monk 11+, it is one of the less interesting archetypes for a Rogue dual-class.
- Long Death Monk can be very interesting for a Rogue high / Monk low dual-class, as long as you want your character to be always in melee, thanks to the THP on kill. If you like the idea of a strong party support, the level 6 ability can be worth too, but requires high WIS.
- Sun Soul Monk is basically useless for a 3 level dip (feature incompatible with Sneak Attack), probably not worth much more at level 6 (Burning Hands with Ki can be handy, but that 1st level spell could also be grabbed as an Arcane Trickster).
- Open Hand Monk's level 3 feature can be very interesting for a Rogue, but it does require Ki to work too, and consumes it fast. Also requires high WIS.

Now on Rogue.
Basically every feature is worth, and higher you are, better Sneak Attack is. With that said, you may not be that interested in Reliable Talent depending on your focus, and "just" WIS save is plain inferior to Monk's Diamond Soul.

Appreciation will change with archetypes:
- Thief is very great for a <=7 multiclass: you get plenty of useful objects to use as a bonus action, plus all Rogue greatness. Level 9's advantage on Stealth is probably overkill, but may be worth to you if infiltration is really your schtick (but in that case, you want Reliable Talent anyways, so level 11 Rogue and more, in which case other archetypes give more).
- Assassin is player dependant (to enable level 3 feature) and DM dependant (to take advantage of level 9 feature). If your DM usually allows you to do meaningful things during downtime (aka really making the world evolve even when "you are not there") and you like political games or grand scale strategies, this could be the best for you. Otherwise steer aside if you plan on going high Rogue.
- Arcane Trickster is the overall "best" one, because it gives you many different tools through spells. Plus Magical Ambush can give you strong options at higher levels.
- Swashbuckler provides free disengage on attack, a tad better Initiative (usually, probably not for you), and a nice "duel me" ability at level 9. Basically, if you really like these features, go for it. Otherwise, steer away: you will have low CHA (so no great Initiative bonus) and "disengage on attack" can be obtained through Mobile feat.

What I'd suggest for a goal of lvl 10 character.
Shadow Monk 6 / Rogue 4: Thief (caltrops, Healer feat), Arcane Trickster (Mage Armor so you can focus on DEX bumps) or Assassin (surprise ambushes) will work great: you basically ditch all Martial Arts (and possibly Unarmored and Stunning Strike depending on your Wisdom score), to just use Ki on Dodge or spells, and "misty step" ability. Because of that choice, you could even keep a decent STR score and get Expertise in Athletics (in addition to the obvious Stealth) to Shove or Grapple your enemy. In that case, Arcane Trickster has an advantage over the other archetypes: you can grab Mage Armor to get AC=13+DEX, meaning you can stay unarmored, so you can use Martial Arts's bonus action to do exactly that.
For higher levels, you can either aim for Monk 14 / Rogue 6, or instead keep Monk as is and just level Rogue.

Swashbuckler 5 / Long Death Monk 5, or 7/3 (for Rogue's Evasion and additional Expertise): while you infiltrate as any other "plain" Rogue, you like striking onto the frontline, combining all your know-how to stay strong: Disengage on Extra Attack + Dodge as bonus action + Uncanny Dodge will make you really hard to strike down as long as you avoid being swarmed, which should be easy enough to do thanks to Monk's extra mobility.
As for end builds, the simplest would be Long Death Monk 15 / Swashbuckler 5, but if you don't care about having one redundant Evasion, a Rogue 11 / Monk 9 could also make a fearsome opponent (Reliable Talent power).

[bid]

Str: 9 (*10)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Cha: 15 (*16)
Dex: 18
Wis: 18
In addition I get a +2 on one other skill... Dex or Wis?
Cha only. You'll have to swap Cha14+2 and Con15+1