1 of 8 PF

[arkangel111]

Joining a new game this week and I'll be 1 of 8 party members. Here is what I know so far.

Party:
7 characters. I know there is a druid, hunter, gunslinger, monk, Orc barbarian, pyrokineticist, and a weird witch variant.

Level: 3

Campaign:
Orient DM world

Stats in no order (rolled) rolled extremely well with this dude. 18 16 16 16 15 10

That is literally everything I know. It was suggested I go arcane caster.

What would you make to complement this group and have at least something to do in most situations? If you say a class i'd like to know what focus for spells, sample list, must have feats and such not just wizard is God, I know that already, but the party is big and could find myself napping instead of playing.



Sry for formatting and grammar it was done on phone.

[Kurald Galain]

7 characters. I know there is a druid, hunter, gunslinger, monk, Orc barbarian, pyrokineticist, and a weird witch variant.

Well, you've apparently got five frontliners (druid's animal companion, hunter, hunter's animal, monk, barbarian), one artillery (gunslinger), one controller (witch), and one healer (druid).

So a good choice here is Bard or Skald, both for the arcane utility magic and to boost your many frontliners. The Magus Guide (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) contains a lot of good feats and spells that also apply to a bard. HTH!

[legomaster00156]

Well, you've apparently got five frontliners (druid's animal companion, hunter, hunter's animal, monk, barbarian), one artillery (gunslinger), one controller (witch), and one healer (druid).

So a good choice here is Bard or Skald, both for the arcane utility magic and to boost your many frontliners. The Magus Guide (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) contains a lot of good feats and spells that also apply to a bard. HTH!
I second this, but I add that the party also lacks a clear face, which either of these classes is also good at.

[Florian]

Hard to recommend something here...

Large party like that, the best thing you can do is mass/passive buffs, that will have the most noticeable combat impact and people will simply love you for it. It also looks like there´s no clear face on the party.

The obvious answer would be Bard or Skald, can´t go wrong there.

The not-so-obvious answer would be Medium, using the Marshall spirit as default option.

A Sister-In-Arms Cavalier (or Samurai) VMC Bard going for Battle Herald, maybe with Sisterhood Style is also a strong option.

[Geddy2112]

Also +1 to bard or skald. Round out the arcane casting role, buff all of your allies, and provide a face as the only CHA based character.

Either also functions as a party textbook to handle the knowledges not covered by other characters.

[denthor]

Alignment helps me make decisions.

Thief 15 16 16 16 18 10

Str 15

Dex 18

Int 10

Wis 16

Con 16

Cha 16

Feat trade out dex for str for hitting. Weapons finesse.

[Wasum]

Alignment helps me make decisions.

Thief 15 16 16 16 18 10

Str 15

Dex 18

Int 10

Wis 16

Con 16

Cha 16

Feat trade out dex for str for hitting. Weapons finesse.


...what? :redcloak:

[icefractal]

Alternately, a Witch with the Cackle and Fortune hexes, and maybe other buff-type hexes. Get a mount to free up your move actions and laugh your way to victory. Doesn't get you face-abilities like Bard, but you're Int-based so lots of skills.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll +1 on Bard.

I like Skald even better in some groups, but it's very dependant on the party - but Bard helps the gunslinger, the pyrokinetiscist, and the monk/hunter if they're ranged and/or Dex builds - many monks go Dex (which Skald doesn't).

Plus - as odd as it is from a fluff perspective, Skalds don't mesh well with Barbarians. (rages don't stack)

[denthor]

...what? :redcloak:

How I would create a character with those stats.

Why be complicated?

[Wasum]

How I would create a character with those stats.

Why be complicated?

Your post just seemed somewhat weird. What is a thief?

And why would you ever go for dex with those stats? He could start with str 18 and dex 16 - with those attributes there is no need to go dex-based at all.

[Calthropstu]

I'd go summoner or sorcerer specializing in summon spells. Summon spells are greatly enhanced vs their 3.5 counterparts.

[Wasum]

I'd go summoner or sorcerer specializing in summon spells. Summon spells are greatly enhanced vs their 3.5 counterparts.

Eight. Players.

[ATHATH]

I kind of feel like you should take advantage of those ludicrous stats somehow. Maybe you can pull off a MAD build that normally wouldn't work?

But yeah, +1 to Bard or Skald.

[PacMan2247]

If for some reason you don't want to go with Bard or Skald (which are both really great options), but still want to provide bonuses to the party on a large scale, you could consider Marshal or Dragon Shaman (but they're both likely to be significantly less effective).

Healing is a suboptimal (and often boring to play) use of a Cleric, but this group seems pretty light on healing options. You could get around that a bit by prestiging into War Weaver from Bard. It would be a hit to bardic music and knowledge, but could give buffs and/or cure spells a little more oomph if you found it necessary for the group as you get to those levels, and wouldn't be a decision you have to make immediately.

[Epic Legand]

I personally disagree with the masses. While I DO agree a party buffer would see a great return, you may not want to be the second string to someone else's hero. With large party's, I always felt its best to specialize. Be the party's Wiz/Arcainist/Sorcerer and cover arcane. If you go Soc, you can also be the face, you can even do wizard, and use a couple of traits to switch from CHR to INT for social skills. Pick a role you LIKE playing, and focus on doing it well. With your stats, you can afford to buff a dump stat and occupy a role not normally covered.

[CharonsHelper]

If for some reason you don't want to go with Bard or Skald (which are both really great options), but still want to provide bonuses to the party on a large scale, you could consider Marshal or Dragon Shaman (but they're both likely to be significantly less effective).

Considering that this is a PF game - no he couldn't.

[arkangel111]

I am seeing the lack of a true face for the party, but never really cared for the bard they always felt lackluster to me. I have been considering a wizard but with those stats I feel its a waste. A rogue is just one more guy in combat to slow us down, and not that impressive anyways.

looking at races and I talked with the DM he will waive the wildshape prereq from natural spell if I go kitsune with fox shape. so then it breaks down to what caster class. looking at various options I can go int or cha based with a racial ability score swap through keen kitsune.

If it is on the D20PFSRD it is fair game for now but he is thinking of disallowing 3rd party because someone has been breaking the game with it but it is not officially off the table yet. thinking real hard about a kitsune witch as i found an archetype that swaps out the normal familiar for a familiar that can change into a stone and then act like the best of both worlds for an arcane bond but can't seem to find it at the moment.

Arcanist might be a good fit since I have multiple high stats, cha and int can be high without issues, and they get the better spell list. then again a wizard with 20 int and 22 dex in a tiny fox form can make a really decent sneak (18 stealth if I get it class through skulker trait) and gets the higher level spells, disguise self through the tail with nine-tailed inheritor means I should be able to change into ANY tiny animal.


SEE HOW TORN I AM!! so frustrating to have such good rolls, not used to it.

[EldritchWeaver]

If it is on the D20PFSRD it is fair game for now but he is thinking of disallowing 3rd party because someone has been breaking the game with it but it is not officially off the table yet.

3PP might it make easier to break the game, but Paizo-only has also some options. Take wizard with both the Exploiter archetype (that makes a wizard into an arcanist) and in addition the Pact wizard archetype (add witch patron spell list and other shenanigans, plus blackened curse - you aint a frontliner anyway) and the Sacred Geometry metamagic (it has been proven that at 14 ranks you already succeed automatically, in addition, if you keep to lower level spells, starting at 7 ranks the chance to succeed is decent).

A more balanced magic system is the 3PP Spheres of Power, which rewards thematic specialization. That means a more focused sorcerer, which has a lot of at-will powers. There is an arcanist conversion, which allows to change the loadout day-by-day, but that is paid for with a limited amount of magic talents (kinda spells) usable at once. A less fluid but still powerful version would be a spiritualist hedgewitch, which is basically build-your-own-class class and has a chassis more like a bard. The spiritualist tradition allows you temporary access to unknown magic talents, so if you are in a bind, you can take the right talent at the right time. True, it is less powerful than core magic, but being less constrained by spell slots and how many spells I place in them is great. If you don't care for that, then take my other suggestion.

An aside about 3PP: Some 3PP provides options which aren't available in 1PP. Those options aren't necessarily broken, but they can shift the game balance. Path of War is problematic in this regard, because 1PP martials usually are Tier 5 material, so Tier 3 martials will marginalize those characters. Spheres of Power can have a similar effect, if the 1PP caster isn't build effectively and in mind to be more flexible, as SoP makes characters in their niche powerful. So if using balanced 3PP causes a problem, then it is more likely to put the spotlight on a weak character than being actually overpowered. That effect can be achieved with high-OP 1PP, too, but since good 3PP makes it easy to build effective characters, it gets the blame instead.

[Alcore]

Off the top of my head; (and if it was me)

Magus

Combat reflexes + bodyguard for feats.

One handed reach weapon, a quickdraw shield, throwing weapons of various metals and one short sword.

Spells would largely be area of effect spells. All the better if attack rolls are unneeded.

----------

To me this is optimized; most will disagree. While in the back you will be the heaviest thing around and with the power to preserve the other casters for frontliners to get back. While in the front your squishy by comparison but with a reach weapon you should know where to place yourself to be helpful.


Spells being area of effect is important; with eight people your going to need to be crowd control. You will notice both a 'quickdraw' shield and a lack of shield proficiency which is intentional. The shield only needs to be in your hands when defending and worse case scenario all your weapons should be one handed. With bodyguard feat you can aid another to improve AC (with or without shield) as a free action so you can still cast.


Don't be afraid to share your throwing weapons with the others. They don't even need to be thrown; a silver javelin makes a fine short spear and is likely better than most of the parties gear vs werewolves.



In short; use AoO for buffing, use spells on crowds, protect those around you and save weapons for important battles.

[Calthropstu]

Eight. Players.

Your point? I run summons faster than most people can select what their character does. And with 8 players, you need to put something between your allies and hordes.
How about illusions then? You can do well with battlefield control... grab some illusion spells to hide the party, maybe a few support spells like web or wall of stone, throw in a destructive spell or two...

[MindTheGap97]

Considering the stats you rolled Bard would probably be the strongest option, probably going for an Archer style and I'd go Human

Str-16
Dex-20 (18+2)
Con-16
Int-15
Wis-10
Cha-16

Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot.
First round start your performance and then start unloading pain on your opponents with your bow.
Bards are kind of MAD, but with your stats you can also fight decently in melee as well, plenty of skill ranks and the bard's good spellcasting, alongside with good AC and a good amount of HP.

I don't see why bards should be lackluster, they've got one of the strongest area buff in the game and considering your party setup inspire courage would be really huge.

An Evangelist Cleric could be really good as well now that I think about it.

[CharonsHelper]

I don't see why bards should be lackluster, they've got one of the strongest area buff in the game and considering your party setup inspire courage would be really huge.

Not to mention Good Hope.

If you REALLY don't want to spellcast though, you could play a Drunken Master Sensei Monk - plus it fits the Orient themed world.

They get Inspire Courage, and at level 6 you can start giving your Ki buffs to others (starting with booze powered Barkskin for everyone!). At 10 you can do crazy stuff like spend your Standard to give everyone True Strike every turn! :P (just convince a couple people to take a maneuverer feat and watch the craziness)

But really - while I like the class/archetype combo, one of its major strengths is how SAD (hits with Wisdom) it is, and with those stats that's pretty unnecessary.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If I may present two options that haven't been mentioned:

The Mesmerist is also an excellent face if Bard's not to your liking. They're significantly more focused on debuffs (team up with the Witch to neuter your foes!), but have condition-removal and also buffs in the form of their Tricks. They love frontliners as well, which you have many of.

For a more support-oriented character, an archer Oradin would be a boon to this party. You'll need a level of Oracle for each frontliner, but in exchange you heal them passively all while actually doing things on your turn.

[exelsisxax]

Since apparently 3pp is in, tactician or vitalist, kings of large team shenanigans. Tacticians are all about strategy and positioning and coordination, vitalists can basically turn the whole party into one giant health pool while stealing life from enemies. Both have a lot of the standard buff options that a bard has as well.

[weckar]

Does PF have a Marshal equivalent? Aura boosts are awesome in such a large group.

[Vaern]

I'm not especially familiar with Pathfinder's classes, but just for the sake of making a recommendation other than bard I'll suggest an Oracle. It's a charisma-based class which, though not as skill-oriented as the bard, may make a half-decent face character. Taking the legalistic curse will give you bonuses to some social skills starting at level 5, plus to the ability to make a promise once per day to gain a +4 morale bonus to a roll starting from level 1.
In addition, it has full 9-level spell progression. The druid and witch are both capable of casting healing spells, but both are prepared casters and neither are able to cast healing spells spontaneously - plus, we know their classes, but we don't know whether either of them is planning on healing at all. Considering the size of your group, having a couple of Cure spells on your list will take a lot less pressure off of them to keep the rest of the party standing.
A bard could serve the same purpose, but not nearly as well considering their 6-level spell progression.

[Elkad]

I don't see why bards should be lackluster, they've got one of the strongest area buff in the game and considering your party setup inspire courage would be really huge.

Power and fun2play are not the same thing. Inspire Courage for an army of friends may win fights, but after the first round you spend the whole fight saying "don't forget your bardsong bonus" and "ooh, it's my turn. Shortbow attack for 1d6. Next."

I love it when someone else in my group plays a bard, but I'll never pick it.

[upho]

Since apparently 3pp is in, tactician or vitalist, kings of large team shenanigans. Tacticians are all about strategy and positioning and coordination, vitalists can basically turn the whole party into one giant health pool while stealing life from enemies. Both have a lot of the standard buff options that a bard has as well.This.

And if you'd like to have a bit more combat power yourself, I'd also have a look at being a Golden Lion and Tempest Gale focused ranged warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/) (perhaps with the privateer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) class template if using guns), zealot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/zealot/) and/or rubato (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-bard-archetypes/rubato-bard-archetype) bard. These also go very well with firearms, and you can for example start with 3 levels of myrmidon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-fighter-archetypes/myrmidon-fighter-archetype) trench fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter) for extra maneuvers, grit/deeds and Dex to firearm damage, and can also be combined with arcane casting or psionic manifesting via multiclassing (for example with non-rubato bard, wilder or sorcerer, plus maybe the bladecaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster/) or awakened blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade/) PrC). Tons of possibilities! I suggest you check out the class guides before you build an initiator though, since it can get a bit overwhelming the first time (especially unless you're already familiar with the ToB from 3.5).

[Vaern]

Power and fun2play are not the same thing. Inspire Courage for an army of friends may win fights, but after the first round you spend the whole fight saying "don't forget your bardsong bonus" and "ooh, it's my turn. Shortbow attack for 1d6. Next."

I love it when someone else in my group plays a bard, but I'll never pick it.
Yeah, bards aren't especially exciting as far as combat goes. They tend to make better social characters than anyone else, though, which makes all the difference when it comes to determining whether you're playing a role-playing game and a roll-playing game.

[Elkad]

High social skills are not the definition of role-playing.
I can roleplay a xenophobic recluse in the town meeting too. Or an idiot with a big hammer hitting (poorly) on the Princess. Or a creature with an alien mind who doesn't even understand typical humanoid social interactions.
Or infinite other choices than the guy who has to do all the talking to NPCs.

[Vaern]

Maybe not, but if nobody in your party has a rank of diplomacy you're probably not even going to bother considering the possibility of negotiating some sort of treaty between an unfortunate farming town and the band of goblin bandits killing their livestock. A party without charisma is just going to decide that wiping out the goblins is the only viable solution without even considering another option. I find that players are significantly more eager to actually role play, especially in terms of overcoming challenges within the game, when they can reasonably expect their interactions to actually have an effect on the characters around them.

[legomaster00156]

Maybe not, but if nobody in your party has a rank of diplomacy you're probably not even going to bother considering the possibility of negotiating some sort of treaty between an unfortunate farming town and the band of goblin bandits killing their livestock. A party without charisma is just going to decide that wiping out the goblins is the only viable solution without even considering another option. I find that players are significantly more eager to actually role play, especially in terms of overcoming challenges within the game, when they can reasonably expect their interactions to actually have an effect on the characters around them.
Clearly, the only moral option here is to kill the unarmed villagers, who are weak and dependent, and teach the goblins how to raise livestock while also disciplining them on military tactics, that they might conquer a small swathe of land for themselves and no longer rely on raids. :smallbiggrin:

[Calthropstu]

I will second the oracle.
Get the fast healing feat as soon as possible, go life oracle, get a con of 18, grab boots of the earth and watch your gm cry. Free fast healing 5 for everyone :D (well, really just one person at a time but you can switch it as a standard action)
Automatic healing for the party at the end of every fight with no resource expenditure is amazing.

[Psyren]

Eight. Players.

Yeah, I'd advise against a pet class with a party that size - especially since there's TWO already.


Your post just seemed somewhat weird. What is a thief?

I assume he meant rogue; not everyone here uses the English versions of the books.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Clearly, the only moral option here is to kill the unarmed villagers, who are weak and dependent, and teach the goblins how to raise livestock while also disciplining them on military tactics, that they might conquer a small swathe of land for themselves and no longer rely on raids. :smallbiggrin:

Do you want hobgoblins? Because that's how you get hobgoblins.

[Elkad]

Thief 15 16 16 16 18 10


Your post just seemed somewhat weird. What is a thief?


I assume he meant rogue; not everyone here uses the English versions of the books.

Or he's just old like me. I still say "Thief", "M-U", "save vs Death" (for Fort), and other similar things. I've even been know to inquire as to a character's total attack bonus by asking what his "THAC0" is, which is just completely wrong.

[arkangel111]

I am leaning towards arcanist and building him like a Beguiler. A skill monkey caster if you will. That should give me tons of options in and out of combat, with arcanist you need cha anyways so I can still be a decent face, especially if I get them class skill somehow.

I have looked over every one of the options and appreciate all of the wonderful suggestions, don't get me wrong. I almost immediately dismissed any combat or summon focused build due to the sheer amount of combat power we already have. I mean realistically I will be surprised if combat takes 2 rounds with a party this size. even if I don't contribute. With so many focused on combat that leaves the utility and noncombat roles up for grabs. I'll still have spells for BFC prep'd just in case, and to give me something quick to do with my turn.
Another big draw to this class is that I can change it up if I find that despite their classes they suck at combat.

anyone have some suggestions on a build and spell selection for lvl 3 arcanist?

[EldritchWeaver]

I will second the oracle.
Get the fast healing feat as soon as possible, go life oracle, get a con of 18, grab boots of the earth and watch your gm cry. Free fast healing 5 for everyone :D (well, really just one person at a time but you can switch it as a standard action)
Automatic healing for the party at the end of every fight with no resource expenditure is amazing.

Boots of the earth have been errataed (or maybe just FAQed) to work only once per day for a limited time, so no fast healing. I can't remember if getting permanent(ish) fast healing is possible with 1PP or not.

3PP: There is a PoW feat which gives fast healing 1. SoP can grant a permanent fast healing trait, but it scales slowly, so only heavy optimized chars get fast healing 3 before level 20 using this approach. Take instead Revitalize twice and you get a fast healing buffer, which can scale up to fast healing 5. The buffer size can be increased to 50 x CL hp and lasts CL/hour or until you get depleted. Since the buffer is several times as big as max hp of a martial, depletion is unlikely.

[Calthropstu]

Boots of the earth have been errataed (or maybe just FAQed) to work only once per day for a limited time, so no fast healing. I can't remember if getting permanent(ish) fast healing is possible with 1PP or not.

3PP: There is a PoW feat which gives fast healing 1. SoP can grant a permanent fast healing trait, but it scales slowly, so only heavy optimized chars get fast healing 3 before level 20 using this approach. Take instead Revitalize twice and you get a fast healing buffer, which can scale up to fast healing 5. The buffer size can be increased to 50 x CL hp and lasts CL/hour or until you get depleted. Since the buffer is several times as big as max hp of a martial, depletion is unlikely.

Can you point me to that errata?
The reason it has to get to fast healing 5 is because the life oracle has an ability to damage himself to heal the wounds of others at 5 per round. So essentially, if he has fast healing 5, he can pass around his fast healing on the fly to whoever needs it with no drawback. It's an amazing tactic freeing up all the gold normally used on potions and clw wands.

[EldritchWeaver]

Can you point me to that errata?
The reason it has to get to fast healing 5 is because the life oracle has an ability to damage himself to heal the wounds of others at 5 per round. So essentially, if he has fast healing 5, he can pass around his fast healing on the fly to whoever needs it with no drawback. It's an amazing tactic freeing up all the gold normally used on potions and clw wands.

Seems that this change is actually only relevant for the Pathfinder Society games (http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/PFS-CampaignClarifications.zip). So this doesn't impact home games directly.

[Calthropstu]

Seems that this change is actually only relevant for the Pathfinder Society games (http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/PFS-CampaignClarifications.zip). So this doesn't impact home games directly.

Yeah, pfs likes to nerf cool stuff.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, pfs likes to nerf cool stuff try harder for balance.

Depending upon your point of view. GM override is limited in PFS, so they have to attempt better balance.

[Psyren]

CLW Wands and potions should not be a huge percentage of your budget at any rate. Infinite healing is never necessary in this game.

[Calthropstu]

CLW Wands and potions should not be a huge percentage of your budget at any rate. Infinite healing is never necessary in this game.

They DO have ways to get easy healing, and they throw a lot of potions to the party. I have only seen characters die in pfs when some stupid bad luck happens (or some really stupid decisions)