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ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-13, 03:32 PM
This has been bugging me forever: how does a race with a natural weapon (such as a Kenku's claws) interact with a monk's unarmed strike/flurry of blows?

NEO|Phyte
2007-08-13, 03:35 PM
They don't. A monk's unarmed strike damage only applies to an unarmed strike.

Stam
2007-08-13, 03:38 PM
If you can normally attack with a weapon and then use the claws as a natural secondary attack, then you can do the same with the monk's unarmed strike.

I.e. Unarmed strike, then natural attacks at the -5 penalty.

Note, if you flurry then the penalties stack.

Jasdoif
2007-08-13, 03:39 PM
Like NEO|Phyte just said, the unarmed strike progression only affects unarmed strike damage, not other natural weapons.


As for flurry....Long story short, the flurry of blows replaces the normal "manufactured weapon" part of the routine. You can't use natural weapons as part of the flurry, but you can attack with each one once as normal when you make a full attack with both manufactured weapons and natural weapons.

So if you have two claw attacks and are a monk, you can flurry with your unarmed strikes, and then make your regular claw attacks.


Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.

An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-13, 03:49 PM
Thanks everyone, all I needed to hear.

Indon
2007-08-13, 05:28 PM
So say you're a level 1 monk with a bite attack, holding a quarterstaff. (Say also that you have all required feats to do what follows)

You Flurry with unarmed strike x2, TWF with a quarterstaff attack, then attack again with your bite at -5. -4/-4/-4/-9.

Ashlan
2007-08-13, 06:16 PM
So say you're a level 1 monk with a bite attack, holding a quarterstaff. (Say also that you have all required feats to do what follows)

You Flurry with unarmed strike x2, TWF with a quarterstaff attack, then attack again with your bite at -5. -4/-4/-4/-9.

Unarmed strikes REPLACE the weapon strikes, so no, not exactly. However, you can TWF with unarmed, so you would -4/-4/-4/-9 (UAS/UAS/UAS/Bite).

Jack Mann
2007-08-13, 09:42 PM
Not necessarily, Ash. You can interchange your quarterstaff and unarmed strikes freely. So, with flurry of blows and TWF, you could do UAS/UAS/QS/Bite, or you could even do UAS/QS/UAS/Bite.

Remember, you can use any part of your body for the unarmed strike. If your hands are full (or are being used for claw attacks), you can use your feet, head, posterior, whichever part of the body you like.

Indon
2007-08-13, 09:58 PM
Remember, you can use any part of your body for the unarmed strike. If your hands are full (or are being used for claw attacks), you can use your feet, head, posterior, whichever part of the body you like.

Ooh!

UAS/Flurry UAS/TWF UAS/Snap Kick UAS/Claw/Claw/Bite

Take a flaw to get a second feat at first level (as well as an LA0 race with 3 natural attacks, I guess that probably doesn't exist) and you can attack at a whopping -6/-6/-6/-6/-11/-11/-11.

Edit: Anthropomorphic Raven; Claw attack, no Bite. Oh, well.

TheOOB
2007-08-13, 10:30 PM
Lycanthropes make surprisingly good monks, the ability to use all three their natural attacks as well as their unarmed strikes, bonuses to physical stats and to wisdom, all the abilities mesh well.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 04:13 AM
Ooh!

UAS/Flurry UAS/TWF UAS/Snap Kick UAS/Claw/Claw/Bite

Take a flaw to get a second feat at first level (as well as an LA0 race with 3 natural attacks, I guess that probably doesn't exist) and you can attack at a whopping -6/-6/-6/-6/-11/-11/-11.

Edit: Anthropomorphic Raven; Claw attack, no Bite. Oh, well.

Races of the Dragon Web-Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Kobold gets like 1d3/1d3/1d3 Bite(Secondary)/2*Claw(Primary).

So with Kobold Monk 11 you should wind up with:

Flurry of kicks*2(and no penalty from Flurry)
2 Unarmed/Weapon attacks from BAB
1*Snap Kick.
TWF/ITWF/GTWF(up to 3) offhand weapons
Bite+2 claws

Total of 2+2+1+3+3=11 attacks. With -2 from Snap Kick and -2 from TWF(assuming light) Natural Weapon attack rolls getting another -5(total -9). Throw on Frostrager and you get another Unarmed Strike from One-Two Punch.

Why do I feel like I'm basically repeating what I said in an earlier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53561)?:smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2007-08-14, 11:26 AM
Races of the Dragon Web-Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Kobold gets like 1d3/1d3/1d3 Bite(Secondary)/2*Claw(Primary).

So with Kobold Monk 11 you should wind up with:

Flurry of kicks*2(and no penalty from Flurry)
2 Unarmed/Weapon attacks from BAB
1*Snap Kick.
TWF/ITWF/GTWF(up to 3) offhand weapons
Bite+2 claws

Total of 2+2+1+3+3=11 attacks. With -2 from Snap Kick and -2 from TWF(assuming light) Natural Weapon attack rolls getting another -5(total -9). Throw on Frostrager and you get another Unarmed Strike from One-Two Punch.

Why do I feel like I'm basically repeating what I said in an earlier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53561)?:smallwink:

Also grab Open Least Chakra (Arms) at 3rd and Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) at 6th. Now you can full-attack with all of those at the end of a charge.

brian c
2007-08-14, 11:31 AM
Also grab Open Least Chakra (Arms) at 3rd and Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) at 6th. Now you can full-attack with all of those at the end of a charge.

And do about 5 damage with each hit, considering all the penalties you're unlikely to make more than a couple of them. Still, it's fun to see how many attacks you could get, and your opponent will inexplicably be terrified, if you take that Kobold monk PrC

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 11:56 AM
And do about 5 damage with each hit, considering all the penalties you're unlikely to make more than a couple of them. Still, it's fun to see how many attacks you could get, and your opponent will inexplicably be terrified, if you take that Kobold monk PrC

Only if he's not a Dragon. And has fewer HD than you do(I think). "Fear aura" seldom works on anything of higher HD, which means they're great for Big Bads(or most CR-appropriate encounters, really), but suck like hell for PCs. Also the same reason CW Samurai blows.:smallannoyed:

Indon
2007-08-14, 12:49 PM
Also the same reason CW Samurai blows.:smallannoyed:

And yet at the same time, can make for a decent encounter.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 09:24 PM
Well, I suppose it's useful if you want to soften up your opponent by making them Shaken via Glare of the Dragon. The Fear Aura is crap though. Almost as bad as getting DR X/magic at ECL 10 or later.:smalltongue: