[3.5] bard / sentinel of bharrai

[Fliggl]

Bears are cool. And bards are cool. And a singing and dancing bear would be extra cool!

But the prerequisits for SoB are sacred vow and vow of obedience.

The skill requirements are easy, the full casting is very nice and the other abilities are awesome. But vow of obedience and the chaotic restriction from bard... I couldn't imagine how i can rp this. It doesn't fit...

Any ideas?

[Thurbane]

Vow of Obedience doesn't call out Lawful requirements at all. Bard alignment reqs are "Any nonlawful." Bharrai, the Great Bar, is firmly NG.


Neutral Good, “Benefactor:” A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.
Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.

I think you could play a Neutral Good bard and be completely in-keeping with the tenets of Bharrai, and the Neutral Good dogma. I don't think an NG Bard pledging obedience to an NG Celestial has to be overly Lawful at all, at least IMHO.

[BaronDoctor]

Some Harper (http://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story/faction/harpers)-style organization (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Harpers) might fit. Given that the Harpers explicitly draw from bards and strive to strike a balance between the peace of law and the fearlessness of freedom? Pretty sure that's about as Neutral Good as you get.

[Hiro Quester]

Bard and SoB do seem to fit together well.

It's a bit of a feat tax to get in, but singing and dancing bear is an awesome idea for a build. Kudos.

You might even be able to take snowflake wardance feat, for charisma to attack rolls, if your bear claws count as slashing weapons (they are) you "hold in one hand" (?). Hopefully your DM would apply the rule of cool to that one. A bear that can "seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake" would be hilariously cool.

It's not clear whether SoB can cast spells in bear form, though. You can speak, but can bear claws perform the required somatic gestures? This might be your DM's call.

It's not wildshape, so you don't qualify for natural spell.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is also worth noting that Bard lacks a clause that makes them lose any class features if they become Lawful. A NG bard could easily over time become LG and devote himself completely to a worthy lawful cause. He can speak wistfully about his "wild days as a young ministerial, wandering where his soul took him" before "growing up and finding something worth devoting himself to completely."

You wouldn't be able to go BACK into bard levels, but you can take other PRC's that advance bard abilities. Sublime Chord lacks an alignment restriction, and you can dip in the middle of Sentinel to switch up your casting progression to get 9th level spells.

Human with able learner, bard 5 / Sentinel of bharrai 5 / Sublime chord 1 / Sentinel of Bharri 5 / sublime chord 4.

Because 9th level spells make ANY build better.

Just remember, max ranks in balance. Those balls are hard to stand on when your form is more suited to four legs.

[Fliggl]

Vow of Obedience doesn't call out Lawful requirements at all. Bard alignment reqs are "Any nonlawful." Bharrai, the Great Bar, is firmly NG.



I think you could play a Neutral Good bard and be completely in-keeping with the tenets of Bharrai, and the Neutral Good dogma. I don't think an NG Bard pledging obedience to an NG Celestial has to be overly Lawful at all, at least IMHO.

Okay, i totally couldn't remember that bards aren't only chaotic, just non-lawfull. Thanks for pointing


Some Harper (http://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story/faction/harpers)-style organization (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Harpers) might fit. Given that the Harpers explicitly draw from bards and strive to strike a balance between the peace of law and the fearlessness of freedom? Pretty sure that's about as Neutral Good as you get.

Like don't giving a poo about the local rules and obey the words of bharrai wouldn't mess up with my alignment?


Bard and SoB do seem to fit together well.

It's a bit of a feat tax to get in, but singing and dancing bear is an awesome idea for a build. Kudos.

You might even be able to take snowflake wardance feat, for charisma to attack rolls, if your bear claws count as slashing weapons (they are) you "hold in one hand" (?). Hopefully your DM would apply the rule of cool to that one. A bear that can "seem to float haphazardly across the battlefield like a whirling, razor-edged snowflake" would be hilariously cool.

It's not clear whether SoB can cast spells in bear form, though. You can speak, but can bear claws perform the required somatic gestures? This might be your DM's call.

It's not wildshape, so you don't qualify for natural spell.

Don't know about snowflake wardance. A slashing weapon in one hand and the other hand has to be free.
How could my empty claw count as both at the same time?


It is also worth noting that Bard lacks a clause that makes them lose any class features if they become Lawful. A NG bard could easily over time become LG and devote himself completely to a worthy lawful cause. He can speak wistfully about his "wild days as a young ministerial, wandering where his soul took him" before "growing up and finding something worth devoting himself to completely."

You wouldn't be able to go BACK into bard levels, but you can take other PRC's that advance bard abilities. Sublime Chord lacks an alignment restriction, and you can dip in the middle of Sentinel to switch up your casting progression to get 9th level spells.

Human with able learner, bard 5 / Sentinel of bharrai 5 / Sublime chord 1 / Sentinel of Bharri 5 / sublime chord 4.

Because 9th level spells make ANY build better.

Just remember, max ranks in balance. Those balls are hard to stand on when your form is more suited to four legs.

This one made me laugh :)

Cool idea with the alignment change, but i still have to take VoO as a bard. And so no solution for my dilemma



Thanks for the input

[Thurbane]

Don't know about snowflake wardance. A slashing weapon in one hand and the other hand has to be free.
How could my empty claw count as both at the same time?

Maybe see if the DM would allow you to use Steelclaws (check the Urskan entry in Frostburn, pages 159-160). They aren't given proper stats (other than 1d12/x2 for a large user), but appear to be a set of steel claws that fit over the Urskans regular claws. As DM, I would allow it as an exotic (or maybe martial) weapon usable by a character with natural claw attacks.

I made a thread about them once: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442862

[Hiro Quester]

Snowflake wardance doesn't have to be one-handed. I played a bard/sublime chord who would hit himself with a wand of heroics to grant the use of TWF and ITWF and snowflake wardance about the battlefield with a long sword and a dagger.

The requirement is that weapons not be two-handed (no greatswords), not that only one hand hold a weapon and the other be empty.

"you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand."

If it's possible, you should consider adding sublime chord. There is a skill tax to enter, but the improvement to casting is phenomenal.

Bard 9/SoB1/sublime chord 2/SoB+8 would be a powerful build. 9th level spells in dire bear shape.

[Fliggl]

Snowflake wardance doesn't have to be one-handed. I played a bard/sublime chord who would hit himself with a wand of heroics to grant the use of TWF and ITWF and snowflake wardance about the battlefield with a long sword and a dagger.

The requirement is that weapons not be two-handed (no greatswords), not that only one hand hold a weapon and the other be empty.

"you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand."

Okay yeah... i mixed snowflake wardance with the requirements for some abilities from the bladesinger PrC. There you have to have a hand free in addition to your weapon.
I should check the feats i'm talking about...


If it's possible, you should consider adding sublime chord. There is a skill tax to enter, but the improvement to casting is phenomenal.

Bard 9/SoB1/sublime chord 2/SoB+8 would be a powerful build. 9th level spells in dire bear shape.

Sublime chord indeed is phenomenal!
This build is more of an idea i had in mind.
But when i play him, i will go Bard5 / SoB3 to turn into a bear asap. And then maybe 1 to 4 level in warshaper.
With sublime chord added the build could be
Bard5 / SoB3 / Warshaper2 / SC3 / SoB+7

[Fouredged Sword]

One could reach bard 5, undergo an alignment change, then ether use the retraining feats or Psy reform into the vow. You are a lawful bard 5 for one level, but there is no penalty for being a lawful bard outside not being able to progress bard levels any longer.

[Fliggl]

With sublime chord added the build could be
Bard5 / SoB3 / Warshaper2 / SC3 / SoB+7

Was reading through SoB again and it says


Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level, a sentinel of Bharrai gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she
belonged to before adding the prestige class.

Am I right that with this build there are no 9th lvl spells for poor me?

EDIT: to clarify my question: am i allowed to relocate the “existing spellcasting class“ after leaving SoB, gaining levels in sublime chord (and so new casting) and then reenter SoB to advance the SC spellcasting? Or is the desicion fix when I took the first level of SoB?

[Hiro Quester]

Sublime chord indeed is phenomenal!
This build is more of an idea i had in mind.
But when i play him, i will go Bard5 / SoB3 to turn into a bear asap. And then maybe 1 to 4 level in warshaper.
With sublime chord added the build could be
Bard5 / SoB3 / Warshaper2 / SC3 / SoB+7

To get the most out of it, Sublime Chord should be taken at 11th level. You lose the ability to get to 9th level spells otherwise.

And usually the class-granted abilities aren't much worth it after SC2 (the ability to use bardic music to increase the Caster Level of your next spell by 4).

Getting to SoB 3 asap seems prudent. who wouldn't want to be a bear as soon as they could? (FYI, I currently play a wildshaping Druid. I get it.)

But you might think about what level of bard you would like to attain, in terms of class abilities.

Suggestion at Bard 6 is kinda Meh. But it ain't nothing.

But getting to Bard 8 for an increase in the bonus you get from Inspire Courage isn't a bad idea.

Or even Bard 9 for inspire greatness (which our party tank --maybe that's you) often appreciated when I played a bard.

But Bard 5 gets you 5 uses of bardic music per day. That isn't many, especially when you get to higher levels. You can take the extra music feat if you run low, though. But there will be many uses for your feats in a build like this. (e.g. don't dismiss the power of Doomspeak, as the best debuff in the game!)

Warshaper is a good addition to this build. Bigger natural weapons and +4 (untyped, even when not in bear shape) strength and Con is very good.

But you do lose caster levels for this. You have to ask whether seriously restricting the number of 3rd level spells you can cast, and reducing your caster level for the spells you can cast (less dice damage, etc.) is worth it. There are a lot of goodies for a bard at that level (Haste!! but also Glibness, Displacement, Blink and many others).

It will also reduce your 4th level spells to only those you get from SC.

If you do take Warshaper be careful to take both levels before level 10 (as you describe here). Sublime Chord restarts your casting, and you probably won't want to lose caster levels after that.

This is looking like a fun build to play.