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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Thought exercise: Give a monster +10 to all ability scores. What happens?



UrielAwakened
2017-09-18, 02:12 PM
What's the average CR increase, would you say, to a monster if you just give it some sort of paragon template that adds +10 to all stats?

I looked through average AC, save values, and attack bonuses to get a baseline and for the most part they seem to get a +10 CR bonus as well. However, hit points are going to be more variable (because 5 * HD is always going to be different) and damage is ABSOLUTELY going to lag behind.

If I were trying to accomplish a roughly 10 CR point boost in this fashion, what special adjustments should I make to damage? Maybe give each attack X number of additional damage dice as well? Double the damage dice?

EDIT: If unclear, this is for 5e homebrew. I'm more-or-less looking for ways to quickly turn basic monsters into much more powerful threats at higher levels.

Rynjin
2017-09-18, 02:32 PM
That would translate to roughly a CR +5 adjustment by itself (the Advanced Simple Template being +2 to all scores and a +1 adjustment, for Pathfinder at least).

This is misleading though because past a certain point raw stat boosts have diminishing returns, special abilities and good uses of all their actions are what make enemies more powerful. This would basically make a fight last longer, but not be particularly HARDER in most cases.

It also, as you mentioned, doesn't account for HD, which directly raises a monster's BaB, saves, spellcasting (if any), and number of Feats they have access to. Each application of this hypothetical template advancing their Hit Dice by 10 as well would make a far greater difference in the grand scheme. That would make it about a CR +7 or 8 template (since CR doesn't scale linearly with monster HD).

Damage adjustment of dice shouldn't be needed, with such a huge accuracy and static damage boost this translates to a hefty damage increase already, with more value for monsters that have many natural attacks like big cats (that can hit up to 5 with Pounce if you include Rake in the calculations, more with Rend). In both 3.5 and PF Power Attack has more value with the added accuracy, don't forget to take that into account.

Adding on a template like Alacritous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/alacritous-creature-cr-2/) to mitigate the action economy disadvantage then makes a truly deadly adversary, equally useful for both casters and melee sorts (the former get to cast two spells and the latter get to make two full attacks against separate targets).

Jormengand
2017-09-18, 02:34 PM
It depends hugely on the monster.

A kobold with +10 to all ability scores will be annoying for a low-level party to fight but not stack up to, say, most CR 3 monsters. An animal or magical beast with a bunch of HD and flight but not much else will benefit substantially. A hekatoncheires has high enough ability scores that it doesn't matter. And a rust monster will hardly notice, because its bite never deals substantial damage anyway and the reflex save only applies to anyone stupid enough to put metal in its face.

UrielAwakened
2017-09-18, 02:46 PM
That would translate to roughly a CR +5 adjustment by itself (the Advanced Simple Template being +2 to all scores and a +1 adjustment, for Pathfinder at least).

This is misleading though because past a certain point raw stat boosts have diminishing returns, special abilities and good uses of all their actions are what make enemies more powerful. This would basically make a fight last longer, but not be particularly HARDER in most cases.

It also, as you mentioned, doesn't account for HD, which directly raises a monster's BaB, saves, spellcasting (if any), and number of Feats they have access to. Each application of this hypothetical template advancing their Hit Dice by 10 as well would make a far greater difference in the grand scheme. That would make it about a CR +7 or 8 template (since CR doesn't scale linearly with monster HD).

Damage adjustment of dice shouldn't be needed, with such a huge accuracy and static damage boost this translates to a hefty damage increase already, with more value for monsters that have many natural attacks like big cats (that can hit up to 5 with Pounce if you include Rake in the calculations, more with Rend). In both 3.5 and PF Power Attack has more value with the added accuracy, don't forget to take that into account.

Adding on a template like Alacritous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/alacritous-creature-cr-2/) to mitigate the action economy disadvantage then makes a truly deadly adversary, equally useful for both casters and melee sorts (the former get to cast two spells and the latter get to make two full attacks against separate targets).

Sorry this is for 5e. And yeah in 3.5 I wouldn't expect much of a bump. However with bonded accuracy I was figuring it'd be a bit more extreme of a bump in 5e.

Rynjin
2017-09-18, 02:56 PM
Ah, did you edit the title or am I just dumb?

5e I'm a bit less clear on the underlying math, since 5e's CR system is...wonky. 5e characters can EASILY hit about 8-10 CRs above their weight class IME, since accuracy is pretty heavily bounded in 5e.

Adding a flat +5 to every parameter of an enemy then becomes disproportionately useful for higher CR characters than lower CR ones. As Jormengand put it, a Kobold with +10 to every score just becomes a slightly stronger kobold, it being a low CR creature it still falls within the expected game math (and has some ability scores low enough that they barely crack the non-magical limit even with the boost, if they do at all). At higher CRs that extra +5 to accuracy, damage, AC, all saves, and between 50 and 100 extra HP is way more noticeable, since it cracks the ceiling PCs are able to consistently reach.

UrielAwakened
2017-09-18, 02:57 PM
Yeah I edited the title.

And yeah it would mostly be used on low-to-mid CR creatures initially. I guess it's designed to create more high-CR threats than are currently available. Reuse some of that lower-CR design space without having to flood the map with lower-CR monsters. For instance, if I can turn a bunch of goblins into CR 10 goblins, awesome, good enough. If I can turn a Chimera into a CR 16 monstrosity, great.

Kind of like how in Paper Mario, there were palette swaps of monsters at the later levels that would have higher stats and some additional dicey abilities.

Rynjin
2017-09-18, 03:27 PM
That generally USED to be the purview of giving Kobolds and Goblins and what have you class levels. I find that to be a more fun solution than raw numbers boosts myself.

Sariel Vailo
2017-09-18, 05:32 PM
Why give it to the monster give it to the peasant.

UrielAwakened
2017-09-19, 09:27 AM
So after some initial examinations I found the following trends:

AC - A +5 to Dexterity almost always puts it over 19, which is above the CR calculation table. I'm not sure how to use those values in calculating defensive CR, especially since monsters with higher than 19 AC exist. Anyone know how AC like 20, 21, etc...contribute to the defensive CR rating average?

HP - This actually tends to lag behind whatever the theoretically defensive CR would be if you assume +1 CR per AC above 19. I've taken to doubling the number of hit dice as well, which keeps the HP a little closer to expectations on the chart.

Attack modifier - Harder to figure out, since a base +5 to hit/DC isn't the only thing I need to include, I also need to know the proficiency bonus, which means I need to know the CR. 5e's custom monster system is dumb when you aren't working backwards with a CR already in mind.

Damage - doubling the number of damage dice per attack seems to keep damage scaling fairly evenly with other numbers.

I'm not convinced yet that it's a set 10 CR increase yet but it seems to be somewhere in that neighborhood. I need a better tool to do this though. I might take to coding my own monster maker program in excel just to have all of this information more centralized.

JNAProductions
2017-09-23, 03:56 PM
AC increases Defensive CR by 1 for every 2 points it exceeds the the expected amount (base Defensive CR is based on HP total).

And for Rynjinn, you've said this in other places. I'd assume either 1) your players are tactical and strategic geniuses in a combat as sport game, 2) you're letting them have their 15 minute adventuring day, or 3) both.

Rynjin
2017-09-23, 04:27 PM
AC increases Defensive CR by 1 for every 2 points it exceeds the the expected amount (base Defensive CR is based on HP total).

And for Rynjinn, you've said this in other places. I'd assume either 1) your players are tactical and strategic geniuses in a combat as sport game, 2) you're letting them have their 15 minute adventuring day, or 3) both.

It doesn't take a strategic genius, it's just a numbers game. Due to bounded accuracy in 5e you don't generally have a situation where the players just can't hit the bad guy except on a 20 unlike previous editions. Likewise, the PCs can't get their AC that high either.

A party of 4 level 11 PCs is perfectly capable of taking down a level 19 Wizard (I know, because my Swashbuckler Rogue nearly soloed one a while back. Only a failed Finger of Death save put me down a single attack away from killing him) for the same reason a group of 16 bog standard Orcs is a threat to that same group of PCs.

Action economy is, has been, and always will be king barring vast differences in damage output and damage mitigation, which 5e lacks. Yes, some tactics are necessary, but nothing out of the norm of decent positioning and attacking the enemy's weakness (if you know it).

JNAProductions
2017-09-23, 05:13 PM
Level 19 does NOT equal CR 19. That's something that was (supposed to be) true in 3rd edition, but it is NOT true in 5th.

Look at the Archmage-an 18th level caster, but only CR 12. (I think-AFB at the moment.)

Arkhios
2017-09-24, 11:21 PM
Look at the Archmage-an 18th level caster, but only CR 12. (I think-AFB at the moment.)

Yup, confirmed.

CR in 5e is derived from the creature's raw power in combat, starting from average damage potential over 3 rounds, ability DC's, AC, and Hit Points. Then, any ability that might be considered a defensive or offensive boost may increase it in various ways.

Pure increase in stats isn't guaranteed to affect the creature's CR in an universally applicable way, unfortunately. Archmage, for example, relies on spells, which in turn mostly depend on the spell slot used. Spells depend very little on that stats themselves, except for spell save DC.

UrielAwakened
2017-09-25, 09:17 AM
Yeah that's why I was also doubling all of the dice they would roll (including spell damage dice).

I'm working on an alternative equation now, keeping the idea of the ability score bump but using more of a flat increase to damage and hp.

However it's taking a backseat to my 5e monster maker. Funnily enough I decided the easiest way to test this repeatedly was to just build a monster making program rather than doing the math by hand over and over again.