Swordsage and monk Wisdom Bonus to AC question

[Catarang]

I feel like this is a dumb question because I've looked all over and I don't see people talking about this, and I feel like if it were possible it would have been done already. That said, is there any way for the Swordsage and Monk wisdom to ac bonuses to stack, such as some light armor that allows a monk to still add her wisdom bonus to ac, and even if such an armor existed would both abilities still stack and allow me wisdom x2 to ac anyways? Thanks a bunch in advance!

[Venger]

they don't stack, I'm afraid. check out x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) to find something else that does.

[SirNibbles]

You can do this with a bit of work (not worth it to be honest) by taking two levels of the Argent Fist prestige class (Faiths of Eberron, page 70) which allows you to maintain your Monk AC Bonus even when wearing armour.

There are better ways to double up on Wisdom to AC:
-Ninja of the Crescent Moon 1 (add both your Wis and Dex bonus to AC; Sword and Fist, page 30). Be sure to check the errata for this class to get correct BAB/save progression.
-Dragon Warrior 2 (add Wis as deflection bonus to AC; Dragon Magazine #298, page 104)

[Catarang]

they don't stack, I'm afraid. check out x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) to find something else that does.

I believe you that they don't stack but can you give a quote from a book supporting it for my records?

[SirNibbles]

I believe you that they don't stack but can you give a quote from a book supporting it for my records?

"AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk..."

"AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor"

[Venger]

I believe you that they don't stack but can you give a quote from a book supporting it for my records?

swordsage only gets it in light. monk only gets it while unarmored. you can't be both at once, so they can't stack.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, the abilities have the same name and therefore count as the same source. Even untyped bonuses won't stack if they're from the same named sourced. Even if you found a way to resolved the no armor/light armor discrepancy between the two versions of the ability, this will still stop you from getting your Wisdom bonus to AC twice.


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

[Catarang]

"AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk..."

"AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor"



swordsage only gets it in light. monk only gets it while unarmored. you can't be both at once, so they can't stack.

When I asked for the book quote I understood that there's a discrepancy between the two abilities, hence the initial question of the thread. The answer to that question was answered by this (thank you very much SirNibbles):


You can do this with a bit of work (not worth it to be honest) by taking two levels of the Argent Fist prestige class (Faiths of Eberron, page 70) which allows you to maintain your Monk AC Bonus even when wearing armour.

There are better ways to double up on Wisdom to AC:
-Ninja of the Crescent Moon 1 (add both your Wis and Dex bonus to AC; Sword and Fist, page 30). Be sure to check the errata for this class to get correct BAB/save progression.
-Dragon Warrior 2 (add Wis as deflection bonus to AC; Dragon Magazine #298, page 104)

But unfortunately for me trying to stack Wisdom to AC, KillianHawkeye makes an excellent point here:


Also, the abilities have the same name and therefore count as the same source. Even untyped bonuses won't stack if they're from the same named sourced. Even if you found a way to resolved the no armor/light armor discrepancy between the two versions of the ability, this will still stop you from getting your Wisdom bonus to AC twice.

However, I will then ask if it matters if the Monk "AC Bonus" has an "(Ex.)" for extraordinary ability appended to it, where as the Tome of Battle one is simply "AC Bonus" and if that counts as two separate names or if that's splitting hairs and needs a DM's/per table ruling.

[Crake]

Also, the abilities have the same name and therefore count as the same source. Even untyped bonuses won't stack if they're from the same named sourced. Even if you found a way to resolved the no armor/light armor discrepancy between the two versions of the ability, this will still stop you from getting your Wisdom bonus to AC twice.

Can you quote the part where it states that same name = same source?

[Mato]

I believe you that they don't stack but can you give a quote from a book supporting it for my records?Sure.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.
They are not actually adding a bonus to your AC (well monk does as an "in addition" to it's base effect), they are allowing you to add your wisdom bonus/modifier to AC. It's like if you added all of your tomatoes to a fruit salad, if someone told you to to add all your tomatoes to the fruit salad all you can do is tell them you already did.

[Sleven]

Can you quote the part where it states that same name = same source?

The only place I can recall seeing something like this was in one of the FAQs, specifically addressing this scenario.


They are not actually adding a bonus to your AC (well monk does as an "in addition" to it's base effect), they are allowing you to add your wisdom bonus/modifier to AC. It's like if you added all of your tomatoes to a fruit salad, if someone told you to to add all your tomatoes to the fruit salad all you can do is tell them you already did.

Haha.

[Catarang]

The only place I can recall seeing something like this was in one of the FAQs, specifically addressing this scenario.

Would you happen to have a link to that FAQ on hand?

[SirNibbles]

"In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)."
Player's Handbook, page 313

"Bonuses of different types always stack. Bonuses that have identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect."
Rules Compendium, page 21

I'm not aware of any rules beyond that and nobody has linked/quoted the same name rule. Anyhow, whether they are the same source/same effect is up for debate. If they are different sources, they stack, contrary to what Mato says. If they are the same source, they don't stack.


They are not actually adding a bonus to your AC (well monk does as an "in addition" to it's base effect), they are allowing you to add your wisdom bonus/modifier to AC. It's like if you added all of your tomatoes to a fruit salad, if someone told you to to add all your tomatoes to the fruit salad all you can do is tell them you already did.

You get an untyped bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier to your AC. Untyped bonuses stack.

__

If we rule that AC Bonus from the Monk and AC Bonus from the Swordsage don't stack (due to having the same source), we must do the same for AC Bonus from the Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion, page 80).

__


It's ambiguous. The stacking rules don't cover what happens when a not-so-smart designer gives the same name to two different abilities. There's an argument that it's two different sources with the same name.

[Deophaun]

You get an untyped bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier to your AC. Untyped bonuses stack.
That would be true if it said "add a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier." Unfortunately, they say either "add your Wisdom bonus" or "add your Wisdom modifier." Now, you can split hairs and say your Wisdom bonus is not your Wisdom modifier, but both are typed.

[SirNibbles]

That would be true if it said "add a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier." Unfortunately, they say either "add your Wisdom bonus" or "add your Wisdom modifier." Now, you can split hairs and say your Wisdom bonus is not your Wisdom modifier, but both are typed.

What if they said "add 1 to your AC"? To me, it seems like it's an untyped bonus which varies based on your Wisdom score. It doesn't fall into any of the categories of bonus types (Rules Compendium, page 21), and therefore should be untyped.

[Deophaun]

What if they said "add 1 to your AC"? To me, it seems like it's an untyped bonus which varies based on your Wisdom score. It doesn't fall into any of the categories of bonus types (Rules Compendium, page 21), and therefore should be untyped.
It's literally called "Wisdom bonus." That's typed. There is nothing in the Rule Compendium that states it is an exhaustive list.

[KillianHawkeye]

nobody has linked/quoted the same name rule

You did just now.


Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect."
Rules Compendium, page 21

The effect is the "AC Bonus" class feature. You can see they're the same effect because they have the same name and do essentially the same thing (add Wisdom to AC under particular conditions).

If you instead had two castings of the mage armor spell on you, you can likewise see that they're the same effect because they're both called "mage armor" (ignoring the fact that the armor bonuses already wouldn't stack because they're the same bonus type).

The name of the effect isn't what's specifically called out in the rules, but in practicality, it's the only way we know that two things are meant to be the same.


However, I will then ask if it matters if the Monk "AC Bonus" has an "(Ex.)" for extraordinary ability appended to it, where as the Tome of Battle one is simply "AC Bonus" and if that counts as two separate names or if that's splitting hairs and needs a DM's/per table ruling.

No, "(Ex.)" is not part of the ability's name.

[Catarang]

You did just now.



The effect is the "AC Bonus" class feature.

This is starting to make sense to me, but can you show another example of two classes giving the same class feature and it being obvious it wouldn't stack? Like besides uncanny dodge which has a clause built into it for this situation or evasion which doesn't give a bonus to a stat?

[Gruftzwerg]

The answer is (again..) hidden in the BASICS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

The Basics tell us what does and what does not stack. It tells what overlaps or overshadows.
K, lets start our tour:


1.

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.
While the ability name contains "Bonus", the "AC bonus" is not a bonus in terms of 3.5 (...). The actual ruletext doesn't make use of "bonus" and thus it is not a bonus. And no, it ain't an untyped bonus either, cause the keyword "bonus" is lacking in the ruletext. Further it doesn't fit into any of the (bonus) modifier types listed in the basics. And last but not least, it doesn't affect a die roll and thus is lacking any evidence that it should be treated as "bonus" in terms of rules.

2. The Wis-to-AC-Bonus is just a beneficial effect, that either can overlap or overshadow other effects that do the same. Since both abilities (monk & SS) give you the Wis-to-AC effect, only one matters. The other just overlaps/get overshadowed.

3. Fist of the Forest Con-to-AC would stack with either one of Monk or SS Wis-to-AC, since they are different effects.

on a sidenote: I recommend everybody to read the entire BASICS page at least a dozen times to make sure that you really got assimilated every bit of info of it. It solves so many mysteries many people have with some rules and why the FAQ/support said, that it works "that way".
most notable:
- why sizing effects don't stack
- why monk's belt/tattoo & SUS don't stack

[SirNibbles]

You did just now.



The effect is the "AC Bonus" class feature. You can see they're the same effect because they have the same name and do essentially the same thing (add Wisdom to AC under particular conditions).

If you instead had two castings of the mage armor spell on you, you can likewise see that they're the same effect because they're both called "mage armor" (ignoring the fact that the armor bonuses already wouldn't stack because they're the same bonus type).

The name of the effect isn't what's specifically called out in the rules, but in practicality, it's the only way we know that two things are meant to be the same.



No, "(Ex.)" is not part of the ability's name.

I meant the rule that said that abilities from different classes with the same name are treated as the same source.


The answer is (again..) hidden in the BASICS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

The Basics tell us what does and what does not stack. It tells what overlaps or overshadows.
K, lets start our tour:


1.

While the ability name contains "Bonus", the "AC bonus" is not a bonus in terms of 3.5 (...). The actual ruletext doesn't make use of "bonus" and thus it is not a bonus. And no, it ain't an untyped bonus either, cause the keyword "bonus" is lacking in the ruletext. Further it doesn't fit into any of the (bonus) modifier types listed in the basics. And last but not least, it doesn't affect a die roll and thus is lacking any evidence that it should be treated as "bonus" in terms of rules.

2. The Wis-to-AC-Bonus is just a beneficial effect, that either can overlap or overshadow other effects that do the same. Since both abilities (monk & SS) give you the Wis-to-AC effect, only one matters. The other just overlaps/get overshadowed.

3. Fist of the Forest Con-to-AC would stack with either one of Monk or SS Wis-to-AC, since they are different effects.

on a sidenote: I recommend everybody to read the entire BASICS page at least a dozen times to make sure that you really got assimilated every bit of info of it. It solves so many mysteries many people have with some rules and why the FAQ/support said, that it works "that way".
most notable:
- why sizing effects don't stack
- why monk's belt/tattoo & SUS don't stack

Going by your pedantry, there's no such thing as a bonus to AC because bonuses only apply to die rolls.

[Gruftzwerg]

I meant the rule that said that abilities from different classes with the same name are treated as the same source.



Going by your pedantry, there's no such thing as a bonus to AC because bonuses only apply to die rolls.

AC Bonus is just the name yes.
The effect is to add your WIS-bonus to your AC.
It's just a beneficial effect. Not a "bonus" (as defined by the 3.5 rules).

edit to clarify:

every bonus is an (beneficial) effect, but not every (beneficial) effect is a bonus.

[Catarang]

The answer is (again..) hidden in the BASICS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)

The Basics tell us what does and what does not stack. It tells what overlaps or overshadows.
K, lets start our tour:


1.

While the ability name contains "Bonus", the "AC bonus" is not a bonus in terms of 3.5 (...). The actual ruletext doesn't make use of "bonus" and thus it is not a bonus. And no, it ain't an untyped bonus either, cause the keyword "bonus" is lacking in the ruletext. Further it doesn't fit into any of the (bonus) modifier types listed in the basics. And last but not least, it doesn't affect a die roll and thus is lacking any evidence that it should be treated as "bonus" in terms of rules.

2. The Wis-to-AC-Bonus is just a beneficial effect, that either can overlap or overshadow other effects that do the same. Since both abilities (monk & SS) give you the Wis-to-AC effect, only one matters. The other just overlaps/get overshadowed.

3. Fist of the Forest Con-to-AC would stack with either one of Monk or SS Wis-to-AC, since they are different effects.

on a sidenote: I recommend everybody to read the entire BASICS page at least a dozen times to make sure that you really got assimilated every bit of info of it. It solves so many mysteries many people have with some rules and why the FAQ/support said, that it works "that way".
most notable:
- why sizing effects don't stack
- why monk's belt/tattoo & SUS don't stack

Unless there is a rule so obvious you didn't mention it or I missed something, the looks to be a nonsequitor between points 1 and 2. You managed to define the wisdom modifier to ac part of the monk/swordsage class feature as not a bonus, then did (what looks like to me) nothing with that conclusion and then asserted that the monks/swordsages wisdom to ac are "beneficial effects" and do not stack. Can you tell me why two beneficial effects that do the same thing do not stack?

[Gruftzwerg]

Unless there is a rule so obvious you didn't mention it or I missed something, the looks to be a nonsequitor between points 1 and 2. You managed to define the wisdom modifier to ac part of the monk/swordsage class feature as not a bonus, then did (what looks like to me) nothing with that conclusion and then asserted that the monks/swordsages wisdom to ac are "beneficial effects" and do not stack. Can you tell me why two beneficial effects that do the same thing do not stack?

sry that I missed that part. But I thought it would be obvious how it is handled.
but if you need a reference for that too, here you go:

Rules Compendium p. 137

The stacking effects paragraph divides effects into..

- Different Bonus Types (the sole things that may/could stack. that's why I pointed out that it ain't a bonus and thus doesn't fit)
- Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths (doesn't fit)
- Same Effect with Differing Durations (doesn't fit)
- Same Effect with Differing Results (doesn't fit)
- One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant (does fit)
- Multiple Mental Control Effects (doesn't fit)


(btw, this is the 2nd page I recommend to read at least a dozen times if you still haven't so far. I really recommend this for gasping the stacking (or not stacking) rules.)

edit: I skipped this cause if you follow base logic as used in rules/laws, you already know that you only got permission to stack "bonus modifiers" so far. The rest is just common sense if you ask me.
But for people who ain't got the proper training in reading rules/laws, this may not be so obvious..

[Catarang]

The only place I can recall seeing something like this was in one of the FAQs, specifically addressing this scenario.


Also, the abilities have the same name and therefore count as the same source. Even untyped bonuses won't stack if they're from the same named sourced. Even if you found a way to resolved the no armor/light armor discrepancy between the two versions of the ability, this will still stop you from getting your Wisdom bonus to AC twice.


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

So it's looking like KillianHawkeye and Sleven were right, I finally found the FAQ (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a) that Sleven mentioned stating that they have the same name and same effect so they don't stack. Looks like I'll be taking a good hard look at Warblade instead.

[Gruftzwerg]

So it's looking like KillianHawkeye and Sleven were right, I finally found the FAQ (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a) that Sleven mentioned stating that they have the same name and same effect so they don't stack. Looks like I'll be taking a good hard look at Warblade instead.

proves my point that they ain't bonuses and are the same effect


Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack.

the reasons/rules behind this answer is in the BASICS and in the "stacking effects" paragraph as mentions.

[KillianHawkeye]

I meant the rule that said that abilities from different classes with the same name are treated as the same source.

The class it comes from is irrelevant, the abilities are the same. We know they're the same because they're called by the same name. How else are you going to get the same class feature twice, if not from two different classes? :smallconfused:

[daremetoidareyo]

Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities

It can be argued that the ex ability is different than the natural ability that is untyped between the Monk and swordsage classes

[Gruftzwerg]

Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities

It can be argued that the ex ability is different than the natural ability that is untyped between the Monk and swordsage classes


doesn't matter. what matters is the effect: what it does and on which stack/stat it goes and optional a mechanical description to differentiate it from other effects that may stack. Unless it is a special "bonus" type, you have no rule to stack em. We don't have any mechanical description that differs from the other (e.g. if one would be an energy effect, while the other would be due to your agile training, than the effects would stack) and it ain't a bonus. You still lack the permission to add em.