3.5 Demon Hunter Build Help

[Xethik]

Hey folks,

After receiving a ton of great advice on a previous character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510444-Caster-PrC-after-Sublime-Chord), I figured I'd come back for round two!

It's time for a new character!
First the hard details:

Starting at 16th level
Any official 3.0/3.5 sourcebook is allowed, including other settings at DM discretion
Dragon Magazine content is allowed
Pathfinder content is not allowed. Could probably get something through, but I'd rather not pester the DM with it unless it is really compelling.
Stats can be allocated however and are rolled as:

17, 16, 16, 14, 12, 6
Feat progression is modified to Pathfinder feat progression (every odd level)
Bloodlines and UA generic classes are not allowed. Clerics and Paladins are also banned for narrative reasons.
Optimization level is practical op, but I'm not really too power-oriented here. I'd rather have a mechanically fun character with lots of options than a strong one, but those usually go hand-in-hand, don't they?


Unfortunately, my idea of what I'm looking for is fairly vague. The basic premise is a character who stranded in the Abyss for centuries, taking on the features of the fiends (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BecameTheirOwnAntithesis) he hunted (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters) to better hunt them. I'm certainly taking influence from the Warcraft Demon Hunters (Illidan and his Illidari), but I'm not really looking to create a character based on their abilities. More, just a similar premise. The sort of fighting style I'm going for is, at this point, still undecided. I think whatever can really shine with the demonic abilities will be what I'm most interested in. Definitely not full-caster, but I'd like some amount of casting or an alternative. I'll touch on that below.

Race is probably Human, or a Human-alternative such as Azurin or Silverbrow Human, based on backstory. I'm willing to hear other recommendations, but it seems unlikely.

Alignment is fairly flexibly, but I'm definitely leaning towards CN. Evil might be too harsh and, I think, given the fiendish

Coming from playing a full caster, I'd like to avoid doing a caster-focused character this time around. Instead, I'm thinking either some sort of melee (two-weapon fighting is where I'm leaning because 2 edgy 4 u) or archery. Leaning towards melee, despite the melee heavy party already. I definitely want either ToB maneuvers, a sprinkling of casting, or both. In terms of spellcasting, Druidic/Ranger or Arcane are the only options. Clerical or more Paladin-like divine casting is out.

Classes and options I have in mind:

Swordsage: TWF build. Maneuvers are neat-o. I think the Swordsage discipline and skills are a bit more thematic for the character, but Warblade could certainly work, too. This more easily opens up Shadow Blade, too. Not crazy about the ToB PrCs that work with Swordsage, however, for this build, which is too bad.
Ranger: TWF or Archery. Probably just a 2-dip, with some ACFs like Solitary Hunter thrown in for good effect. Getting Favored Enemy is a good fit for the character, but there are probably other, better ways of attaining it. I'm likely feat starved, so gaining "bad" feats like Track or Endurance might not be too bad if they are used as pre-reqs or Embrace the Dark Chaos'd away (see below)
Barbarian: Spirit Lion (and Ferocity) ACF one dip for that Pounce. Ferocity is available for a Dex build.
Nentyar Hunter: Bit of a weird PrC, but it has decent casting progression with gems like Moon Blade 3 class levels in. Moon Blade has some particularly interesting synergies with ToB maneuvers and Shadow Blade, but maybe I'll save that for another build.
Totemic Demonslayer: Full BAB that gives Favored Enemy (Demons) with standalone but fairly underwhelming casting. Still, there are some good utility and buff spells like Haste, Bless Weapon, and Freedom of Movement. The tattoos are fairly interesting, too, especially with a Strength build.
Hellreaver: Two-handed Weapon build. Assuming alignment restriction can be handwaived. Interesting point pool mechanic that has a variety of uses and gets Mettle at 4. Power Attack and Furious Strikes don't mesh too well with TWF, so this is more likely for a THF build.
Fiend Slayer: Look! The right concept! But pretty weak in execution. Could qualify with enough Ranger for spells and the Edgewalker Sentinel feat. Spell-list is extremely underwhelming.
Warlock and Binder: I didn't look at either of these too hard. The flavor is probably in there, but I haven't dug around enough and I'm not very familiar with the options for either class. Any opinions? Clawlock seemed somewhat interesting, but suffer at higher levels due to lack of BAB scaling. Glaivelock feels a bit too cookie-cutter for me, personally. None of the lower level Binder vestiges stood out. Could it be worth the levels and feats to get something like Paimon?


Feats I have in mind:

Abyssal Heritage: Probably the best option to add those Demonic features that makes this character a Demon Hunter, not just a demon hunter. Embrace the Dark Chaos is likely on the table as long as not cheesed, so that's a plus.
Hellsworn: Devilish version for a fiendish gift. Essentially two-feats for Hell's Fury, but such is the cost of flavor.
Edgewalker Sentintel: Improved favored enemy bonus by 1, gives a few skill proficiencies, and adds to ranger spell-list. Probably an okay feat with a dip into Solitary Hunter Ranger.
Abyss-Bound Soul (Baphomet): Double "weapon damage" on a charge. 3 feats is probably too much, and it likely only applies to the weapon dice based on a more power-light reading.
Standard weapon-style feats. Two-Weapon fighting (+ feats from the Offhand Book) or similar.


Apologies for the wishy-washy desires and lack of a real goal. Out of the options listed, what are some of the standouts? Anything that I may have missed which feels like it would work thematically or mechanically? I'm notoriously indecisive, so I'm hopeful that some Playgrounders can convince me towards and away from certain options.

Thanks in advance!

[Deadline]

What about a Totemist with Knowledge Devotion? The Incarnum classes are all fluffed around using soulstuff to gain power (something fiends are well known to do). Maybe mix in a level or two of Ranger to pick up a favored enemy bonus on top of it, and there you go. You are a warrior who has studied fiends carefully (Knowledge Devotion + Favored Enemy), and has learned to fight on their terms (empowering yourself through soulstuff). Fluff your binds as fiendish things, and you could be all set. You could always splash some initiator levels in there to cherry pick a few really good maneuvers as well.

[Gruftzwerg]

I could offer 2 of my builds for inspiration.

The first is my ShurikeNado build is you want to combine melee and ranged into an ubercharger. The builds doesn't sole rely on Shuriken and they can be exchanged with any other melee weapons for the most part. The sole reason is that it's cheaper (gold and class lvl). The build only dips Bloodstorm Blade 2 and thus doesn't get lightning ricochet (lvl4 ability of BSB) for full ranged attacks with the same weapon. Further you don't need quick draw to draw enough shuriken for your full attack (due to ammunition ruling).

The second would be my Clawlock build. It has the desired amount of magic I guess. You combine high ubercharger dmg with mobility and several deception & perception layers. If you want to have a predator fluffed build, here you go. While the build starts with being a lawful character due to monk restriction, you need to shift your alignment to chaotic for barbarian later. This can be great fun and I have a story section to help with that. Have a look, maybe it fits your desires.

[Eldariel]

Shadow Sun Ninja seems quite perfect, with the level 10 acting as a metamorphosis of sorts. It's more aligned to negative energy and undead, but you can fluff it for Demon use as well (and there's a link between these two in e.g. Orcus's case). The 10th level is quite like Metamorphosis, very powerful but carrying the risk of "succumbing" for your "Demon nature" if you use your powers too much. Combined with Swordsage and the shadow hand maneuvers and all those magical aspects, it seems like exactly what you want, and quite strong to boot.

You could multiclass a bit to hit all the 9th level maneuvers too; Crusader & Warblade get full initiator progression from Shadow Sun Ninja and then you could just finish up with Master of the Nine for a combination of power and flavour.

[Xethik]

What about a Totemist with Knowledge Devotion? The Incarnum classes are all fluffed around using soulstuff to gain power (something fiends are well known to do). Maybe mix in a level or two of Ranger to pick up a favored enemy bonus on top of it, and there you go. You are a warrior who has studied fiends carefully (Knowledge Devotion + Favored Enemy), and has learned to fight on their terms (empowering yourself through soulstuff). Fluff your binds as fiendish things, and you could be all set. You could always splash some initiator levels in there to cherry pick a few really good maneuvers as well.
That's really clever, I quite like it. I'll mention it to the DM and see if that is something he'd like to make work as well as brush up on the Totemist guides. We did have a Totemist Shadowpouncer earlier in the game, but it should be quite easy to make something feel different than that. Knowledge Devotion seems like a must include. I even have the chart on the back of my old character sheet for another player in the game, so double win. Thanks!


I could offer 2 of my builds for inspiration.

The second would be my Clawlock build. It has the desired amount of magic I guess. You combine high ubercharger dmg with mobility and several deception & perception layers. If you want to have a predator fluffed build, here you go. While the build starts with being a lawful character due to monk restriction, you need to shift your alignment to chaotic for barbarian later. This can be great fun and I have a story section to help with that. Have a look, maybe it fits your desires.
Looks like you definitely made the Clawlock work well there. That would certainly work as a strong base for the build. Has nice synergy with the Claws of the Beast Abyssal Heritor feat, which I may or may not look into.


Shadow Sun Ninja seems quite perfect, with the level 10 acting as a metamorphosis of sorts. It's more aligned to negative energy and undead, but you can fluff it for Demon use as well (and there's a link between these two in e.g. Orcus's case). The 10th level is quite like Metamorphosis, very powerful but carrying the risk of "succumbing" for your "Demon nature" if you use your powers too much. Combined with Swordsage and the shadow hand maneuvers and all those magical aspects, it seems like exactly what you want, and quite strong to boot.

I had originally dismissed Shadow Sun Ninja since the DM used it for an NPC earlier in the game, but I like those points. I doubt it would be terribly hard to reflavor and I could even sneak it into an Eldritch Clawlock build, probably.

This is all really interesting and really great stuff. Thank you everyone for the ideas! I'll try to have an update in direction later today.

[Darrin]

That's really clever, I quite like it. I'll mention it to the DM and see if that is something he'd like to make work as well as brush up on the Totemist guides. We did have a Totemist Shadowpouncer earlier in the game, but it should be quite easy to make something feel different than that. Knowledge Devotion seems like a must include. I even have the chart on the back of my old character sheet for another player in the game, so double win. Thanks!


I don't know if I can fit in Knowledge Devotion, but Totemist 2 gets you Girallon Arms, which allows you to two-handed grip a pair of longswords. Girallon Arms + Oversized TWF gets you two-handed Power Attack damage on top of TWF. Hellreaver 5 + Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest lets you soak the Con damage to replenish your Holy Fury points whenever you like.

[Xethik]

I don't know if I can fit in Knowledge Devotion, but Totemist 2 gets you Girallon Arms, which allows you to two-handed grip a pair of longswords. Girallon Arms + Oversized TWF gets you two-handed Power Attack damage on top of TWF. Hellreaver 5 + Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest lets you soak the Con damage to replenish your Holy Fury points whenever you like.

Now that's what I call great justice! With Pathfinder feat progression and the opportunity for Flaws, Knowledge Devotion can probably fit in somewhere.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Demonwrecker is a five-level PrC from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. It allows you to ignore some demonic defenses, countering DR, energy resistance, and SR. Other than that, it's a cleric with a bad fort save. Without clerics and paladins, archivist and druid are the more natural entries. Druids are usually more than ready to fight demons, so that's an option.

If you take a replace-all-the-things druid, mix in barbarian, ranger, and totemist, and then go into Demonwrecker and Totem Rager, you have a pretty neat and flavoured combat package, although very specialized. For example, ranger 1/druid 3/barbarian 1/totemist 2/demonwrecker 2/totem rager 7, increasing Totem Rager. You need some early entry for Demonwrecker (Aeshkrau illumian with Improved Krau sigil would boost your druid CL by 2 and base your bonus spells off of strength, which is practical--your overall casting is as druid 5, so you're doing utility stuff only).

Note: the idea is that druid gives you Rage, Favoured Enemy, WIS to AC, fast movement, and no animal companion/Wild Shape/spontaneous summoning. I think you should be able to get Whirling Frenzy on a druid, but ask your DM. The barbarian level gives you Favoured Enemy and Pounce, not rage. The ranger level gives another Favoured Enemy. Normally, I'd tell you to get a level of paladin for another Favoured Enemy, but those are unavailable.

Basically, pick FE (evil outsiders) for your ranger level, then improve that twice, so you get a +6 bonus. Take Azure Enmity to go with your Totem Rager (+essentia insight bonus on FE bonus). Should put you at +10 against demons, which is multiplied by the natural attacks you get from totemist and Totem Rager.

Obvious downsides: weak casting, could really use fractional bab, not as much essentia as you'd like, didn't even manage to get maneuvers in there, and you're not particularly good versus nondemons.

(but, it's a decent overview of some anti-demon options you can pick up)

[ATHATH]

Have you considered a Hellfire Warlock build with a dip in Binder (for Naberius)? Extend Hellfire Warlock with Legacy Champion (*cough* that Heart of Whatshisface that Illidan absorbed the power of *cough*) and pick up as many things that damage your stats as a drawback as you can (symbionts, those rituals from Lords of Madness (IIRC), etc.). You're slowly replacing pieces of yourself (your stats) with stat repair-material from Naberius, who might make a few... "alterations" to you as he repairs your stats/you. Feel free to head into (a refluffed) Anima Mage while you're waiting to get into Hellfire Warlock (maybe pick up the Practiced Binder feat as well).

[Xethik]

Demonwrecker is a five-level PrC from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. It allows you to ignore some demonic defenses, countering DR, energy resistance, and SR. Other than that, it's a cleric with a bad fort save. Without clerics and paladins, archivist and druid are the more natural entries. Druids are usually more than ready to fight demons, so that's an option.

If you take a replace-all-the-things druid, mix in barbarian, ranger, and totemist, and then go into Demonwrecker and Totem Rager, you have a pretty neat and flavoured combat package, although very specialized. For example, ranger 1/druid 3/barbarian 1/totemist 2/demonwrecker 2/totem rager 7, increasing Totem Rager. You need some early entry for Demonwrecker (Aeshkrau illumian with Improved Krau sigil would boost your druid CL by 2 and base your bonus spells off of strength, which is practical--your overall casting is as druid 5, so you're doing utility stuff only).

Demonwrecker is fairly interesting, nice mention. I like the countering DR aspect of it, especially since it doesn't require a good alignment for that option to work. Getting that as an aura eventually is a nice touch. Totem Rager fits in nicely with the Totemist meldshaping-as-demons aspect.


Have you considered a Hellfire Warlock build with a dip in Binder (for Naberius)? Extend Hellfire Warlock with Legacy Champion (*cough* that Heart of Whatshisface that Illidan absorbed the power of *cough*) and pick up as many things that damage your stats as a drawback as you can (symbionts, those rituals from Lords of Madness (IIRC), etc.). You're slowly replacing pieces of yourself (your stats) with stat repair-material from Naberius, who might make a few... "alterations" to you as he repairs your stats/you. Feel free to head into (a refluffed) Anima Mage while you're waiting to get into Hellfire Warlock (maybe pick up the Practiced Binder feat as well).
From what I could tell (and I'm probably wrong), Hellfire Warlock doesn't work with Glaive or Clawlock. Am I just mistaken there? Otherwise, I'm not super interested in just being an Eldritch Blast Warlock. But that being said, Naberius Binder does open up plenty of options. I'll take a look at the Symbiont options, but I'm a bit worried Naberius synergies is just a bit above the power level I'm looking at. But if it is opening up some really great, thematic options, I can probably make it work.

Thanks for both options! Definitely a lot more options than I was expecting. A lot of ways to skin a demon, I suppose.

[noce]

I see you're pretty set about race.

If it is human-like enough for you, I suggest Hellbred.
It lacks the human bonus feat but has other things and it is really reallly thematic.

[Gruftzwerg]

From what I could tell (and I'm probably wrong), Hellfire Warlock doesn't work with Glaive or Clawlock. Am I just mistaken there? Otherwise, I'm not super interested in just being an Eldritch Blast Warlock.


A strict RAW reading implies that it would work with Eldritch Glaive but wouldn't affect Eldritch Claws.
Eldritch Glaive is just a blast shape = you still use your Eldritch Blast.
Eldritch Claws on the other hand if a feat that works on a free action with a duration of end of turn and forbids the use of Eldritch Blast in the meanwhile.

So, strict RAW would be a no for clawlocks. But imho it wouldn't matter for clawlocks. Cause the extra dmg gained from it is low compared to the other charge dmg options clawlocks have and the investment needed (3lvls!) doesn't make it worth, that I would even ask the player (if I am the DM) if he really wants to gimp his build. It's nice for Glaive & Blastlocks for upping their dmg, since they don't have many other options for that. But as clawlock you have better options to invest.
Dunno if the "dmg yourself for extra dmg" is appealing to your concept RP-wise, cause other than the extra fluff, you don't get anything that you wouldn't get otherwise better (more dmg).

[Nifft]

If you can stomach playing a gish, then you've got good options via CN + Aligned Spellcaster (ACF) + Chaotic Spell Recall (feat).

Chameleon is great if you can use 3.0e spell lists like the BoVD Demonologist (which gets lesser planar binding as a level 2 spell, and the real thing as a level 4 spell).

With some minimal house-rules, you could probably get the XPH Slayer PrC to represent an anti-Cerebrilith class, instead of an anti-Mindflayer class. That would look like Ranger 1 / Psion 6 / Demon Slayer 10.


I've always had a soft spot for Clawlock Shadowpouncer Jade Phoenix Mage, though it's a pretty high-level build.

[Xethik]

I see you're pretty set about race.

If it is human-like enough for you, I suggest Hellbred.
It lacks the human bonus feat but has other things and it is really reallly thematic.
Huh. For some reason I thought Hellbred was more of a... pseudotemplate like Dragonborn. But yeah, you're right, it's pretty thematic and the bonus feats aren't terrible for the build. The devil-touched feats are a bit weaker than Abyssal Heritage, but that is what Embrace the Dark Chaos is for, isn't it? And I don't think my DM would have a problem with it. Thanks for pointing that out.


A strict RAW reading implies that it would work with Eldritch Glaive but wouldn't affect Eldritch Claws.
Eldritch Glaive is just a blast shape = you still use your Eldritch Blast.
Eldritch Claws on the other hand if a feat that works on a free action with a duration of end of turn and forbids the use of Eldritch Blast in the meanwhile.

Dunno if the "dmg yourself for extra dmg" is appealing to your concept RP-wise, cause other than the extra fluff, you don't get anything that you wouldn't get otherwise better (more dmg).

Good to know on the Glaive vs Claw thing there.
As for the sacrificial damage boosts, it's something I'm open to. I do want the character to be effective, to a point. But I think my last build was a bit too on the strong side so I'm just being (overly) cautious. Will definitely still consider Hellfire as an option as I've loved the concept for a while.


If you can stomach playing a gish, then you've got good options via CN + Aligned Spellcaster (ACF) + Chaotic Spell Recall (feat).

Chameleon is great if you can use 3.0e spell lists like the BoVD Demonologist (which gets lesser planar binding as a level 2 spell, and the real thing as a level 4 spell).

With some minimal house-rules, you could probably get the XPH Slayer PrC to represent an anti-Cerebrilith class, instead of an anti-Mindflayer class. That would look like Ranger 1 / Psion 6 / Demon Slayer 10.

I've always had a soft spot for Clawlock Shadowpouncer Jade Phoenix Mage, though it's a pretty high-level build.
If my last build wasn't a Sublime Chord gish and/or we didn't have a Shadowpouncer in the party already, I'd certainly consider it. I was going to originally play an Ultimate Magus or Chameleon in the event of a reroll, but I'm trying to stay away from too much of a caster focused. I'm still playing with the idea of JPM (reflavored), though, especially with a Precocious Apprentice Warlock entry. Depends how interesting Invocations look and if I feel like I need the extra class level d6s for Eldritch Claw.

[Nifft]

Hmm... this one's a bit out there, but I think it's rules-legal.

Artificer except you enforce the rule that he gets all Item Creation feats at the earliest level, which includes Graft Flesh at level 7.

You are the premier interplanar merchant of demon-flesh grafts, and you know that they're fresh because you just killed the bastards yourself. You're gonna like the way you look, I GUARANTEE IT.

[Darrin]

How about...

Race: Azurin.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush. Favored Enemy: Outsiders. Trap Expert ACF. Spiritual Connection ACF. Flaw: Able Learner. Flaw: Combat Reflexes.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Lunge (Ghostwalk). Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
4) Totemist 1.
5) Totemist 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
6) Fighter 1. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
7) Fighter 2. Feat: Improved TWF. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
8) Cloistered Cleric 1. Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Magic Domain. Dragon deity: Io.
9) Hellreaver 1. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).
10) Hellreaver 2.
11) Hellreaver 3. Feat: Shape Soulmeld -> Strongheart Vest.
12) Hellreaver 4.
13) Hellreaver 5. Feat: Greater TWF.
14) Hellreaver 6.
15) Hellreaver 7. Feat: Shape Soulmeld: -> Thunderstep Boots.
16) Hellreaver 8.
17) Hellreaver 9. Feat: Bonus Essentia.
18) Hellreaver 10.
19) Barbarian 2. Feat: Knock-down. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
20) Totemist 3?

[Xethik]

How about...

Race: Azurin.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush. Favored Enemy: Outsiders. Trap Expert ACF. Spiritual Connection ACF. Flaw: Able Learner. Flaw: Combat Reflexes.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Lunge (Ghostwalk). Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy ACF.
4) Totemist 1.
5) Totemist 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Totem Chakra: Girallon Arms.
6) Fighter 1. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
7) Fighter 2. Feat: Improved TWF. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
8) Cloistered Cleric 1. Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Magic Domain. Dragon deity: Io.
9) Hellreaver 1. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).
10) Hellreaver 2.
11) Hellreaver 3. Feat: Shape Soulmeld -> Strongheart Vest.
12) Hellreaver 4.
13) Hellreaver 5. Feat: Greater TWF.
14) Hellreaver 6.
15) Hellreaver 7. Feat: Shape Soulmeld: -> Thunderstep Boots.
16) Hellreaver 8.
17) Hellreaver 9. Feat: Bonus Essentia.
18) Hellreaver 10.
19) Barbarian 2. Feat: Knock-down. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
20) Totemist 3?
Unfortunately Cleric isn't available due to the homebrew campaign setting. Still, I'm all for that being mentioned in case someone stumbles on this thread with a similar idea. That being said, snagging Travel Devotion is probably gravy if I already have Pounce, right? So I just need to fit Knowledge Devotion? Honestly, that feat is skippable to begin with.

I'm going to follow-up with the DM to see if Hellreaver is available and if Incarnum can be reflavored to demonic vestiges. Thanks for the build run-down, it's great to see a full build breakdown like this.

Both the Totemist and Warlock path are tempting and options I hadn't thought of or dismissed. This thread has certainly given me a much better idea than how I came in.

[Darrin]

Unfortunately Cleric isn't available due to the homebrew campaign setting. Still, I'm all for that being mentioned in case someone stumbles on this thread with a similar idea. That being said, snagging Travel Devotion is probably gravy if I already have Pounce, right? So I just need to fit Knowledge Devotion? Honestly, that feat is skippable to begin with.


My first draft of that build didn't have Cleric in it. It can be taken out. I started with Barb 2/Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Hellreaver 5/Totem Rager 4/Hellreaver +5, but then figured I should fit Ranger in there as they get better skill points and more Knowledge skills. You can take Knowledge Devotion without cleric, just take it as a feat. You can also take it more than once. And while it is mostly gravy... once you activate it, you can back up from your primary target every round as a swift action and re-pounce them with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Moar Gravy. You can do this 10 rounds in a row per activation, and it's pretty darned devastating. When you're dishing out several hundred in damage every round, yeah I'd say Knowledge Devotion is skippable.

[Xethik]

My first draft of that build didn't have Cleric in it. It can be taken out. I started with Barb 2/Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Hellreaver 5/Totem Rager 4/Hellreaver +5, but then figured I should fit Ranger in there as they get better skill points and more Knowledge skills. You can take Knowledge Devotion without cleric, just take it as a feat. You can also take it more than once. And while it is mostly gravy... once you activate it, you can back up from your primary target every round as a swift action and re-pounce them with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Moar Gravy. You can do this 10 rounds in a row per activation, and it's pretty darned devastating. When you're dishing out several hundred in damage every round, yeah I'd say Knowledge Devotion is skippable.
Ahh, I somehow hadn't thought of the backing up and recharging aspect of Travel Devotion, despite that being a fairly common use of it. Good point.

[Nifft]

Okay, one more try on using demons against themselves. How about...

Mystic Wildshape Ranger (Planar ACF) 5 / Planar Shepard 10 / Warshaper 1

Planar Ranger gets you the skill prereqs.
Wildshape Ranger 5 gets you the feature prereq.

Usually it's totally broken to be a Planar Shepard, but at level 16 the spellcasting for Mystic Ranger is not going to overshadow anyone.

You're not bad at hunting demons, with your Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders (albeit only +2). You can probably improve that with feats or spells, or you could improve it to +4 by taking regular Ranger instead of Mystic Ranger, but IMHO the better spellcasting is worth it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You're not bad at hunting demons, with your Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders (albeit only +2). You can probably improve that with feats or spells, or you could improve it to +4 by taking regular Ranger instead of Mystic Ranger, but IMHO the better spellcasting is worth it.
Replacing Warshaper with Spirit Lion Totem barbarian without Rage would also work. Or adding that replace-all-the-things druid I mentioned earlier, which gets FE, WIS to AC, Rage, Fast Movement, Track, and the ability to use druid wands, if relevant.

[Nifft]

Replacing Warshaper with Spirit Lion Totem barbarian without Rage would also work. Or adding that replace-all-the-things druid I mentioned earlier, which gets FE, WIS to AC, Rage, Fast Movement, Track, and the ability to use druid wands, if relevant.

Yeah the Warshaper level is basically just a "WTF do I take now?" thing.

Barbarian is a good suggest.

Nature's Warrior is probably okay, too.

Replace-all-the-things Druid is not a good idea, because the specific focus for this build is turning into Evil Outsiders (demons) to "use their own tools against them". So not being able to Wild Shape would pretty much screw up the whole thing.

-- -- --

Abjurant Champion might be viable as a capstone if you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger slots.

[Deadline]

Oh, hey, it's not a super Optimized idea, but if you like the whole "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster" aspect of the Demon Hunter concept (and want to go evil), you could find a way to use the Acolyte of the Skin prestige class. Duskblade, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept can all qualify for the PrC, and all can produce some excellent results.

[Xethik]

Yeah the Warshaper level is basically just a "WTF do I take now?" thing.

Barbarian is a good suggest.

Nature's Warrior is probably okay, too.

Replace-all-the-things Druid is not a good idea, because the specific focus for this build is turning into Evil Outsiders (demons) to "use their own tools against them". So not being able to Wild Shape would pretty much screw up the whole thing.

-- -- --

Abjurant Champion might be viable as a capstone if you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger slots.

I think one level of Druid (replace some of the things, but probably not take Avenger) is required to meet the Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally required for the Initiate feats, right? I suppose a spontaneous caster class would work, too, if they had SNA on their list or you got it on there. But yeah. Man. Planar Shepherd Outsider Wild Shape would be really fitting, even if broken ninety-nine times out of one hundred.


Oh, hey, it's not a super Optimized idea, but if you like the whole "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster" aspect of the Demon Hunter concept (and want to go evil), you could find a way to use the Acolyte of the Skin prestige class. Duskblade, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept can all qualify for the PrC, and all can produce some excellent results.

The Wear Fiend ability is pretty neat, but I'm not crazy about the Lazer Eye as the other half of the class. Good call out though, thanks.

Oh, and as an update: Hellreaver is out. Not necessarily due to the alignment, but more the divine aspect of it. Totemist is probably okay? But at the moment I'm leaning towards Warlock with Eldritch Claws. I'm really not getting much out of the Warlock levels, though, so I'm open to replacements for those levels. The rough outline I have is:

Ranger 1/Warlock 3/Barbarian 1/Ranger +1(2)/Swordsage 1/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage +7(8)
Race: Hellbred, Infernal Body.
Stats at 1:
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16(+2), Int 14(-2), Wis 12, Cha 6
I'll need to enhancements to my Dex and Int to meet feat pre-reqs, but I think I'll slap on a +2 Belt of Magnificence and put a level up stat in Dex for GTWF. Seems a bit wasteful leaving my Wis so low, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

01. Ranger 1, Solitary Hunter ACF, Spiritual Connection ACF. Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider). Keeping Track to Embrace the Dark Chaos it for an Abyssal feat. Feat: Power Attack. Flaw: Nemesis. Flaw: Abyssal Heritor feat
02. Warlock 1, Invocation: See the Unseen.
03. Warlock 2, Invocation: Otherworldy Whispers or Leaps and Bounds. Feat: Knowledge Devotion
04. Warlock 3, ASI: +1 Str
05. Barbarian 1, City Brawler ACF, Spirit Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF (can this be used with Bloodclaw Shifting?). Feat: Eldritch Claws. Bonus feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting*
06. Ranger 2, Combat Style Feat: Chucked for Abyssal
07. Swordsage 1, Unarmed Variant Feat: Beast Strike
08. Bloodclaw Master 1, ASI: +1 Dex
09. Bloodclaw Master 2, Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage 2
11. Swordsage 3, Feat: Adaptive Style
12. Swordsage 4, ASI: +1 Str
13. Swordsage 5, Feat: Superior UAS
14. Swordsage 6
15. Swordsage 7, Feat: Greater Two-weapon Fighting
16. Swordsage 8, ASI: +1 Str

Racial feats: All traded to Abyssal Heritor
Abyssal Heritor feats: 1 from Flaw, 1 from Track, 1 from Combat Style, 3 from Race
Claws of the Beast, Demonic Skin, Eyes of the Abyss, Precognitive Visions, Vestigial Wings, Cloak of the Oberyth/Keeper of Forbidden Lore.
I think if I drop Keeper of Forbidden Lore and just take Cloak of the Oberyth, I can let me Int drop down to 10, which will let me have a better Wis. That's probably the better move and I can make up for that feat loss with Otherwordly Whispers.

I'll need to recheck maneuver legality, but I'm thinking:
Maneuvers: Cloak of Deception, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Jaunt, Mind Over Body, Bounding Assault, Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Comet Throw, Mirrored Step, Scorpion Parry, Shadow Blink, and Swooping Dragon Strike
Stances: Flame's Blessing, Assassin's Stance, Hearing the Air
There was some trading to get those maneuvers as they are, but I may have made a mistake along the way. Also, Hearing the Air may be redundant with Nemesis and See the Unseen and Flame's Blessing isn't terribly interesting. I'll probably reevaluate those.

How does this look? Not going for much of an ubercharger so that I can shove all these not-so-great Abyssal feats in, which may be a mistake. Damage potential definitely plummets, but I think this should be fairly in-line with the rest of the party. My Favored Enemy bonus is pretty weak, so I'm looking at squeezing Improved Favored Enemy or some class changeups to get that to be more meaningful. Honestly, Favored Enemy 1 + Hunting weapon doesn't seem terrible to me and Knowledge Devotion should be easy to get +4 on against relevant enemy types, so that may be enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Replace-all-the-things Druid is not a good idea, because the specific focus for this build is turning into Evil Outsiders (demons) to "use their own tools against them". So not being able to Wild Shape would pretty much screw up the whole thing.
Uh, ACFs don't give up class features from other classes. The Wild Shape ranger still functions if you later dip druid 1.

[Xethik]

Uh, ACFs don't give up class features from other classes. The Wild Shape ranger still functions if you later dip druid 1.

I think this is just a misunderstanding of the Druid level(s) going in instead of Barbarian, thinking they are to replace the Mystic Ranger.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think this is just a misunderstanding of the Druid level(s) going in instead of Barbarian, thinking they are to replace the Mystic Ranger.
Ah yes, good point. Well, that's cleared up then.

[Nifft]

Ah, yeah, it sounded like the suggestion was to replace Ranger with Druid.

Guess I was just misunderstanding that.

-- -- --

Anyway, another idea for the last 5 levels:

Unarmed Swordsage 2 / Fist of the Forest 3
- Wis and Con to AC
- either +16 BAB (without fractional) or +17 BAB (with fractional)
- two Stances, seven Maneuvers, all picked from mid-level options since you started so late

You could take Beast Strike and get the FotF unarmed strike damage + your Wild Shape claw damage, just as you've shown with Claw-lock.