Min/Maxing in a friends game

[jhonnyd812]

Hello,

After being interested in D&D for a long time, I finally found a group to play in. I was invited by one of the members for the 2nd session, as they only had 3 players and no melee characters. Comp was Bard, Lock, Ranger. Having never played before I spent a while lurking on forums and knowing they needed a front line controller I eventually settled on an H Variant PAM Battlemaster build with the intention to go GWM, Sentinel (aka Munchkintown). Playing MMO's and online games for a while, I've always spent a lot of time min/maxing, it's a large part of what I like about games and I almost immediately regretted it. The lock doesn't have hex, the ranger doesn't have hunter's mark and the bard spends each turn looking confused before deciding to hit something with an axe at 10 str. The DM is running a game for the first time and is absolutely fantastic. I like all the people and the RP is a fun. I'm trying to throttle back my nonsense and have abandoned GWM and Sentinel. I've tried to subtly suggest "Oh man, that Hex spell is awesome" and "Bardic Inspiration sure is cool". No bardic inspiration dice have been used in 3 sessions, the only concentration spell that has been cast was Cloud of Daggers, which did approximately nothing. The group has had a number of unconscious situations and one actual death that the DM bailed out. I'd call it cheese but he came up with some cool consequences and it's a bunch of new players so one death pass probably isn't the worst thing.

This is a long way of getting at: Has anybody else with deep optimizing instincts gotten into a group with friends that absolutely do not have those instincts? I genuinely wish that I could kill off my current character and create a gnome grappler. It's fun, I'm glad I'm playing, but every time the bard tries to hit something with an axe my eye starts to twitch a little. So far I've just let the DM know that I don't mind rerolling if another death pops up and tried to bottle up any bits of frustration I feel. Any other suggestions?

Thanks for listening and thanks for all of the useful guides and threads.

[Foxhound438]

If I were in your situation, I would carry on and try not to worry too much about whether or not the bard is running in for their own execution. Not to say I wouldn't bail him out with sick battlemaster tricks, but I wouldn't try to change their playstyle either- in fact, it could make for a fun RP exercise to be "the one that saves the day but is totally cool about it".

[MeeposFire]

I would switch out your maneuvers for ones that benefit allies. Make them better so that way when they do things liek attack with low str you can give it a fighting chance.

Also do things to boost them at times when you feel confident you do not need to press your advantage such as shoving enemies to give others advantage while reducing your damage.

[jhonnyd812]

Thanks. I started down that road, last mini-boss we fought I just dropped my glaive and started grappling him, which led to some fun RP and confused the DM. Right now running Precision, Disarming and Menacing. I figure Tripping would just screw most of the party over. If I can get a decent versatile weapon I might try taking Tavern Brawler and just grappling things.

[Ventruenox]

I'm currently in a somewhat similar situation, and while trying to be helpful and teach the other players how to best use their character's abilities, it created quite a problem. I knew the capabilities and tactics of PCs that they don't. Combat slowed to a crawl when some players would look to me at the beginning of each round for guidance. The narrative that should take one session to accomplish ended up taking three. My DM and I had a talk about it, and we found that we both recognized that there was an issue. The end result is that since this is a collaborative game, you need to let the other players make their suboptimal choices. Sure, feel free to wince when you know that they are doing something stupid, but you have to roll with it. They will never have the opportunity to figure it out otherwise. Improvise, and be willing to accept a TPK. During breaks or over emails you could give some advice, but don't do it at the table. Offer time to discuss possibilities for their characters if they want to, but leave it at that. Enjoy the fact that you are playing with friends instead of strangers.

[Safety Sword]

I'm currently in a somewhat similar situation, and while trying to be helpful and teach the other players how to best use their character's abilities, it created quite a problem. I knew the capabilities and tactics of PCs that they don't. Combat slowed to a crawl when some players would look to me at the beginning of each round for guidance. The narrative that should take one session to accomplish ended up taking three. My DM and I had a talk about it, and we found that we both recognized that there was an issue. The end result is that since this is a collaborative game, you need to let the other players make their suboptimal choices. Sure, feel free to wince when you know that they are doing something stupid, but you have to roll with it. They will never have the opportunity to figure it out otherwise. Improvise, and be willing to accept a TPK. During breaks or over emails you could give some advice, but don't do it at the table. Offer time to discuss possibilities for their characters if they want to, but leave it at that. Enjoy the fact that you are playing with friends instead of strangers.

Words of Wisdom (20)

[Thrudd]

It sounds like the party needs you as efficient as you can be- they aren't going to survive otherwise. If they see how well you do and get tired if dying, maybe they'll learn how to start looking at using their own abilities more strategically.

[jhonnyd812]

Thanks all. That's about where I'm at. I know trying to tell everyone how to play is a one way ticket back to farming korok seeds in BotW. As far as continuing to min/max, I'm pretty sure some of the other players feel light weight already. I'd rather find a way to step back a bit. I'm pretty sure the DM can scale things to match us, just makes it harder on him when one player is optimizing and 3 aren't imo.

[DevilMcam]

Hi,

One easy solution would be to go with flavorfull, utilisty based "subpar" multiclass. bonus point if that let you hint them at their abilities.
Assuming you are lvl 3 : Use your lvl 4 ASI to patch your stats and allow for this multi, then multi your 5, Skipping multiattack, you could get it back as soon as needed and have PAM to make up for it in the meanwhile.


Cleric gives a bunch of utility spells, and do not improve your fighting capability until later
Bless could hint the bard of the power of inspiration and do stack with it, so you don't strip him of his strenth but combo with him.
Bestow curse can somehow be Hex.
Light domain warding flare can hint at cutting word and is cool.
Life domain is very straightforward but still usefull.
War domain would be VERY subpar as you already have BA attack and way to boost your accuracy via battlemaster.

Wizard get you lots of spells and magic weapon to get you combat ability back (provided you don't get a lot of magic weapons already)
Portent, Is very cool lvl 2 ability, somehow hint at the inspiration and transmutation and Illusion school have okay lvl 2 and much cooler later if you wish to stay here.

I'd advise against taking a multi-class of one of your party members, as you don't want to end a better warlock than the warlock.

[Byke]

I have the same Bard and Warlock in my party :)

Our group has 2 new players (non-gamers the Bard and Warlock) and 3 min-maxers (Ex-WoW/D&D 3.X players). It make for a lot of interesting encounters and many many many deep sighs.

One of our funniest moment was when the Bard and the Warlock, attempted to use Minor Illusion to create a "giant" spider and tried to convince a group of Drow that it was the avatar of Lloth (In illusionary mime as neither one of them spoke Elvish or Drow.)

It was hilariously funny (having them mime the actions of the spider) and the DM handle their creativity well, by allowing it to create a distraction.

In another game our druid player that was low and about to go down. He politely asked the Bard if he would save his life. The Bard intrigued asked how and the Druid simply asked for him to insult the DM really hard. Thus was born the understanding of Cutting Word for our Bard.

Seriously don't throttle yourself back (to much), embrace the juxtaposition. Become the defacto leader of the group, but in a good way and help them learn :) (Best example I have is Roy and Elan). Also enjoy the journey, they will only be noobs once,make it a memorable experience for them. While optimization is a part of the game, it not the only thing.

Also talk to your DM, have him create recurring villains or a mirror party that use tactics, "optimal" feats and spells. If it's done right the new players will learn from their defeats and strive to defeat their evil twins.

[smcmike]

If I were in your situation, I would carry on and try not to worry too much about whether or not the bard is running in for their own execution. Not to say I wouldn't bail him out with sick battlemaster tricks, but I wouldn't try to change their playstyle either- in fact, it could make for a fun RP exercise to be "the one that saves the day but is totally cool about it".


I second this approach. I wouldn't scale back your minmaxing one inch, for a few reasons.

1. If the party is generally ineffective in combat currently, having one very effective character may help to balance encounters and prevent party death. This is a good thing for game stability.

2. As the only front-liner, you are likely to be taking a lot of the fire. Even if you are putting out tons of damage, you may get pretty roughed up on a frequent basis. This will help to counter any perception that you are overpowered in comparison to the rest of the party. You can't be overpowered when you are unconscious.

3. If they are so uninterested in optimization that they have chosen to ignore the basic damage-dealing options for their respective classes, they may not notice or care that you are doing most of the damage anyways.

The key is to be cool about it. You don't need to worry about the bard attacking with his axe, because your character has everything under control, and you don't need to brag about your sick build, because they clearly don't care about that. From now on, only discuss effectiveness if someone else brings it up. Focus on roleplay, just like you would with an unoptimized character. Play a reluctant warrior, maybe - this gives the impression that you really don't care about how cool you've built your character, and also has the added benefit of keeping your poorly optimized group out of unnecessary combats.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll jump on the bandwagon saying not to change your schtick.

It doesn't sound like you're doing it, but I will warn you not to try to compete in the other characters' niches. Even if the bard is being dumb and attacking with an axe, if he gets grumpy you (or better yet the DM) can explain that he can start doing his niche any time and be reasonably effective.

[Mandragola]

People have different playstyles and that’s ok – in theory. As a wargamer and min-maxer myself, I definitely feel your pain on the eye-twitching issue though. I have absolutely been there.

Respecting everyone’s style of play also means respecting your own. So play your own game by all means.

At the same time, you could try explaining some of the basics to your friends. The bard probably doesn’t know that he’d be better off using a rapier than an axe (assuming he has some dex, anyway). He may well be frustrated that he never achieves anything. He doesn’t understand what his character is supposed to be doing, but you do and maybe you can help.

I don’t think you need to try and subtly trick people into playing their characters properly. Just explain to the warlock that hex is a key class feature of warlocks and will lead to a radical increase in their damage. To be fair, that fact really isn’t obvious to a new player looking at the book for the first time.

The trick in doing this successfully is all about how you explain this stuff. You have to be polite and not seem to be telling them how they must play their characters. Instead, offer suggestions of things that could help them. The safer option is just to do nothing, but that does leave you with the risk of an aneurism.

[CaptainSarathai]

I second becoming the "glue." Hand out attacks, grant advantage, etc.

I wouldn't not optimize - don't hamstring yourself. Build a character and concept that you enjoy, and make it as good as it can be. 5e differs from MMOs in that the difference between a bleeding-edge optimized character and a goofball is actually pretty narrow. You can get away with narrative choices over crunchy ones.

I'd also suggest MCing into Barbarian or something like Cleric or Paladin. Obviously, only if your DM allows it, and you're comfortable with the mechanics.
Barbarian can give you boosted damage, boosted survival, ways to help your party (Totem: Wolf) and also a good way to indicate in-character that you're about to pull out all the stops and save the day (Rage).

A caster gives you a chance to show the party how magic works and how to use it effectively, but doing it by example rather than managing their characters before them.
I've played with newbies before who just could not wrap their heads around the spell rules, and were intimidated by all the text or whatever, and didn't use them. I was playing a Bladelock, and it was just "Hex and forget," but I started using some of my other spells to give them examples of different stuff. After a few sessions, they started experimenting with their own spellcasting.

[jhonnyd812]

Thanks for all the advice!


I'd also suggest MCing into Barbarian or something like Cleric or Paladin. Obviously, only if your DM allows it, and you're comfortable with the mechanics.
Barbarian can give you boosted damage, boosted survival, ways to help your party (Totem: Wolf) and also a good way to indicate in-character that you're about to pull out all the stops and save the day (Rage).

That was part of my initial build, was going to take 4 in barb once I got my second attack and GWM. Debated between frenzy and bear (apparently that comes up here a lot), wasn't going to use wolf since I don't want to give the bard another reason to run into melee :smallsmile:.

[jhonnyd812]

I have the same Bard and Warlock in my party :)

Nice. Mine also rolled some miserable numbers on their hit point dice and so have no health at all. Lock has 11 AC and took the "Read any language" invocation instead of perma mage armor. I've been trying to set up encounters, make sure I'm in a position to stop things, or at least get a reaction, but last time a bunch of skeletons popped up out of the ground and one shot her on the first turn. She does have the eldritch blast spam down though, which is like 75% of the way there. And she got to read some guy's journal, so we've got that going for us.

[DarkKnightJin]

You could ask the bard of you could borrow his axe for a bit, and you give him your Rapier.

RP your way into having it work. They might notice that they are more effective this way. Though they really shouldn't be that close by choice..

[Safety Sword]

Going to jump in here again.

It seems like your game is a social group of friends and wants to play a bit of a more relaxed game. Go with it. Don't try and turn this into a metagaming/optimising group.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you slay the dragon or not, if you're having fun being set on fire then the game is a good one.

[FreddyNoNose]

Hello,

After being interested in D&D for a long time, I finally found a group to play in. I was invited by one of the members for the 2nd session, as they only had 3 players and no melee characters. Comp was Bard, Lock, Ranger. Having never played before I spent a while lurking on forums and knowing they needed a front line controller I eventually settled on an H Variant PAM Battlemaster build with the intention to go GWM, Sentinel (aka Munchkintown). Playing MMO's and online games for a while, I've always spent a lot of time min/maxing, it's a large part of what I like about games and I almost immediately regretted it. The lock doesn't have hex, the ranger doesn't have hunter's mark and the bard spends each turn looking confused before deciding to hit something with an axe at 10 str. The DM is running a game for the first time and is absolutely fantastic. I like all the people and the RP is a fun. I'm trying to throttle back my nonsense and have abandoned GWM and Sentinel. I've tried to subtly suggest "Oh man, that Hex spell is awesome" and "Bardic Inspiration sure is cool". No bardic inspiration dice have been used in 3 sessions, the only concentration spell that has been cast was Cloud of Daggers, which did approximately nothing. The group has had a number of unconscious situations and one actual death that the DM bailed out. I'd call it cheese but he came up with some cool consequences and it's a bunch of new players so one death pass probably isn't the worst thing.

This is a long way of getting at: Has anybody else with deep optimizing instincts gotten into a group with friends that absolutely do not have those instincts? I genuinely wish that I could kill off my current character and create a gnome grappler. It's fun, I'm glad I'm playing, but every time the bard tries to hit something with an axe my eye starts to twitch a little. So far I've just let the DM know that I don't mind rerolling if another death pops up and tried to bottle up any bits of frustration I feel. Any other suggestions?

Thanks for listening and thanks for all of the useful guides and threads.

We tend to have little tolerance for kibitzers in our social gaming circle. It is considered uncouth.

[MeeposFire]

We tend to have little tolerance for kibitzers in our social gaming circle. It is considered uncouth.

kibitzers? I am not familiar with that term.

[jhonnyd812]

As someone who grew up watching cribbage tournaments, it's when someone watches over your shoulder in a game. Nobody likes those people.

[Mandragola]

As someone who grew up watching cribbage tournaments, it's when someone watches over your shoulder in a game. Nobody likes those people.

Nobody likes back seat drivers. Equally, nobody likes sitting in the back seat behind someone who doesn’t know what red traffic lights mean – putting everyone’s life at risk.

You’ve got a group with different playstyles and a different level of expertise in the game. That’s a problem that is best addressed. Telling the OP to change without expecting anyone else to isn’t a good solution. The best way round this kind of thing is to have a conversation about it.

That’s not going to be an easy conversation for the OP. He’ll have to avoid giving the impression that he thinks the others are bad players.

The best thing might be for the OP to talk to the DM. It’s kind of the DM’s job to make sure everyone has fun – not the OP’s.

There are two (or many more actually) reasons a person might have their S10 bard use an axe. They either know that it’s bad but go ahead because it’s cool – which is fine – or they don’t realise that a rapier would be far better – which is not fine. One is a legitimate RP choice, the other is putting the player at a disadvantage because they don’t know the rules that well. The person playing the bard might well be annoyed by their own ineffectiveness and grateful for having the rules explained – if it’s done right.

The same kind of applies to a warlock who doesn’t realise they need hex and agonising blast – though less so the mage armour invocation, which isn’t actually required.

[FreddyNoNose]

Nobody likes back seat drivers. Equally, nobody likes sitting in the back seat behind someone who doesn’t know what red traffic lights mean – putting everyone’s life at risk.

You’ve got a group with different playstyles and a different level of expertise in the game. That’s a problem that is best addressed. Telling the OP to change without expecting anyone else to isn’t a good solution. The best way round this kind of thing is to have a conversation about it.

That’s not going to be an easy conversation for the OP. He’ll have to avoid giving the impression that he thinks the others are bad players.

The best thing might be for the OP to talk to the DM. It’s kind of the DM’s job to make sure everyone has fun – not the OP’s.

There are two (or many more actually) reasons a person might have their S10 bard use an axe. They either know that it’s bad but go ahead because it’s cool – which is fine – or they don’t realise that a rapier would be far better – which is not fine. One is a legitimate RP choice, the other is putting the player at a disadvantage because they don’t know the rules that well. The person playing the bard might well be annoyed by their own ineffectiveness and grateful for having the rules explained – if it’s done right.

The same kind of applies to a warlock who doesn’t realise they need hex and agonising blast – though less so the mage armour invocation, which isn’t actually required.
It isn't the OPs business to tell other people how to play. Even if you try to frame it as "suggestions".

[jhonnyd812]

It isn't the OPs business to tell other people how to play. Even if you try to frame it as "suggestions".

I'm not, it just gets under my skin a bit. The point about playing sub optimally for a reason vs. not knowing what's going on is key to me. I don't care about the mage armor thing much, lock picked an RP invocation and used it a bit. Great. Bard just genuinely doesn't know what bards do and falls back on the axe, which does nothing and gets him killed. If he was playing a bard with an axe shaped lute that loved to crack skulls and play songs after a kill, awesome. But there's no RP involved, just confusion. Also has about 20 spells written down on his character sheet at level 3, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't quite get the spell progression thing either. He's really good friends with the DM and I think the DM is going to try to clean it up.

I'm aware that telling people how to play is a quick way to get uninvited. It's why I'm biting my tongue. Just bothers me and I was curious how other people dealt with this situation.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

[FreddyNoNose]

I'm not, it just gets under my skin a bit. The point about playing sub optimally for a reason vs. not knowing what's going on is key to me. I don't care about the mage armor thing much, lock picked an RP invocation and used it a bit. Great. Bard just genuinely doesn't know what bards do and falls back on the axe, which does nothing and gets him killed. If he was playing a bard with an axe shaped lute that loved to crack skulls and play songs after a kill, awesome. But there's no RP involved, just confusion. Also has about 20 spells written down on his character sheet at level 3, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't quite get the spell progression thing either. He's really good friends with the DM and I think the DM is going to try to clean it up.

I'm aware that telling people how to play is a quick way to get uninvited. It's why I'm biting my tongue. Just bothers me and I was curious how other people dealt with this situation.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

If it gets under your skin, that is your problem. Didn't your parents teach you anything about not giving advice unless asked?

Look, you want to play one way, other people want to play their way. If they aren't playing your way, you should leave and find another group that does play your way. If there aren't other options like that, then you better suck it up.

[Xetheral]

I recommend using your optimization abilities to build a new character with similar combat capability to the other players using minimial build choices and then use the remaining space in the build to take the "fun" options that rarely get chosen. Leave yourself a little room to upgrade your combat ability if the group starts to get better. Examples:

Combat Core: Rogue with Rapier
Fun Options: High Int, Mastermind Subclass, Expertise (History and Investigation), Feat (Skilled or Alchemist)
Backup Plan: Magic Initiate (Greenflame Blade)
Combat Core: Dragon Sorcerer with Greenflame Blade, Firebolt, and Shield
Fun Options: Metamgic (Twin, Any), Spells (Non-Combat and Buffs), Feat (Inspiring Leader)
Backup Plan: Take more combat spells
Combat Core: High-Con Mountain Dwarf Wizard with Booming Blade
Fun Options: Conjurer Subclass (conjure cooking pots or stills), Spells (Utility, Unseen Servant Sous Chef), Feat (Gourmand)
Backup Plan: Memorize more combat spells, and/or Heavy Armor prof

[jhonnyd812]

I recommend using your optimization abilities to build a new character with similar combat capability to the other players using minimial build choices and then use the remaining space in the build to take the "fun" options that rarely get chosen. Leave yourself a little room to upgrade your combat ability if the group starts to get better. Examples:

Combat Core: Rogue with Rapier
Fun Options: High Int, Mastermind Subclass, Expertise (History and Investigation), Feat (Skilled or Alchemist)
Backup Plan: Magic Initiate (Greenflame Blade)
Combat Core: Dragon Sorcerer with Greenflame Blade, Firebolt, and Shield
Fun Options: Metamgic (Twin, Any), Spells (Non-Combat and Buffs), Feat (Inspiring Leader)
Backup Plan: Take more combat spells
Combat Core: High-Con Mountain Dwarf Wizard with Booming Blade
Fun Options: Conjurer Subclass (conjure cooking pots or stills), Spells (Utility, Unseen Servant Sous Chef), Feat (Gourmand)
Backup Plan: Memorize more combat spells, and/or Heavy Armor prof


Those are awesome ideas. My initial thought was a gnome EK grappler casting enlarge on himself to wrestle bears, but I like the Dwarf wizard, it would probably play similarly. I'm a little hesitant to try to bring SCAG stuff as it's the DM's first time and we've been sticking to the PHB, but the concept would still work without those cantrips, just a bit less damage.

[TealWastelander]

If it gets under your skin, that is your problem. Didn't your parents teach you anything about not giving advice unless asked?

Look, you want to play one way, other people want to play their way. If they aren't playing your way, you should leave and find another group that does play your way. If there aren't other options like that, then you better suck it up.

There is a very big difference between playing a certain way because you enjoy it, and playing that way because you don't know your options. The way that OP has framed it suggests that the Bard in his group legitimately doesn't know what he can do as a bard, and just defaults to charging in with his axe. With predictable results.

While I agree if the Bard player was a veteran player who wanting to do this and was aware it was a suboptimal way to play a bard it would be rude to demand for them to change their playstyle, it seems perfectly within reason to advise a player who is new to the game in what they have as tools and options.

[Elric VIII]

If it gets under your skin, that is your problem. Didn't your parents teach you anything about not giving advice unless asked?

Look, you want to play one way, other people want to play their way. If they aren't playing your way, you should leave and find another group that does play your way. If there aren't other options like that, then you better suck it up.

Just throwing it out there: actual mature people don't get offended when offered advice. The way you're getting up in arms on their behalf does not really help your point, either. You just assume that they are 100% aware of every option and choosing to ignore it. This is your personal hangup, don't act like this is a common way of thinking between friends.



To the OP: what I really recommend is simply telling them that their characters have the potential to certain things in a more mechanically effective way and ask if they would like you to show them how.

For your own character, I agree that you should take on a more supporting role. It could even be a good thing if you guys TPK because it will encourage them to engage more in the game to prevent that in the future. A little failure every now and then is what makes a hobby interesting.

[Citan]

Thanks. I started down that road, last mini-boss we fought I just dropped my glaive and started grappling him, which led to some fun RP and confused the DM. Right now running Precision, Disarming and Menacing. I figure Tripping would just screw most of the party over. If I can get a decent versatile weapon I might try taking Tavern Brawler and just grappling things.
Yeah, I think it's the right mindset. If you are really set in becoming a one that just have fun with Grappling, might as well take Expertise by a single level dip in Rogue. You could argue that it's munchkinism yet again, but since Grappling is usually a situational ability in the first place, it's really not the same as grabbing a GWM feat for example. ;)

I feel your frustration, but have no good advice for you unfortunately. Whenever I was in the same place (meaning, not players who just forget about what they can do, players that don't care at all), I failed at trying a way to successfully "silently advise" others on how to play, not even optimized (because this is not fun for everyone), but just, like, with the minimum level of tactical awareness to avoid transforming an "easy" encounter into a "deadly" one... ^^
So then embrace the stupidity. After all, it can lead to heaps of fun also, and it's still a game led by a human. If everyone, including DM, is fine with this mindset, he can simply adapt the encounters or let himself be driven by all your crazy ideas... :)

[Aett_Thorn]

We have a Bard in my group that wasn't using his Bardic Inspiration either (he used spells and other features, just not this). After several encounters and combats where it wasn't handed out once, I decided to play the 'helpful idiot'. It went something like this:

Me (engaged in melee): Awww man, I missed an attack. Any chance I could get you to throw Bardic Inspiration on me and see if I can hit?

Him (on the edge of battle, like 70 feet away): Uhhh...I think so, I do that!

Me: Oh no, no, I think you're right. I think that it can only be done on your turn, sorry man. My bad.

Him (looks at the book): Oh, you're right, and I think I'm too far away. Maybe next turn. And oh, I didn't know that it worked on Saving Throws, too.


I look like the idiot who doesn't know the game, and apologizes for 'back seat driving', and he learned that BI had multiple uses in the process. Sometimes it's just a matter of them not knowing what it does, or why people might want it.

[Alejandro]

Just as they are going to play their character how they see fit (even if it's not very good) you should also play yours as you see fit.

In that case, you are now the party Gandalf; you will be much more effective than the others, and hopefully they eventually 'catch up' to you. :)

[PeteNutButter]

I often struggle with unoptimized teammates and their play decisions. There is a balance between helping and running their character for them. Sometimes I bite my tongue, other times I give advice. Fortunately some of them like to ask me for my advice now, at least at character creation.

The best thing I can say for building your own character is most of my characters are now optimized on defense. I don't overshadow my teammates as much when killing things, but I live through anything and can make sure we don't ever TPK. It's proven the best way to be optimized in a team that isn't.

But that works for me because I always build tanks in games. YMMV

[Gorgo]

Something I've done in similar situations is to pick a character concept that sounds fun but underpowered, and then use my optimization-fu to bring it up to the level the non-optimizers are playing at. That lets me indulge my tendency to optimize without creating a power disparity in the group, and has let me play some fun characters that would have been way underpowered in a game full of optimizers.

[Ravinsild]

LOL, my advise is probably terrible but it might be funny.

Get your character "accidentally" killed, then reroll Paladin. I think Oath of Vengenace is the best single target one. Build for absolute max Nova and carry the game on your shoulders. RP it as an anime-like swordsman with exceptional strength for a single turn (or so), but who uses so much of his might in a single killing blow that he's too tired afterward to do much else.

Kind of like Yusuke Urimeshi when he first got his Spirit Gun, or Midoriya from My Hero Academia who uses his fingers/arms with SMASH for max damage but breaks his own bones in the process.

Build to always end fights quickly but with almost no stamina. Blow your load and look cool AF being absolutely min/maxed to the teeth but then when it's all said and done you can do no more.

That's what I would do. Plus Paladins have cool stuff like Lay on Hands and protective Auras and stuff too.

[Mandragola]

Something I've done in similar situations is to pick a character concept that sounds fun but underpowered, and then use my optimization-fu to bring it up to the level the non-optimizers are playing at. That lets me indulge my tendency to optimize without creating a power disparity in the group, and has let me play some fun characters that would have been way underpowered in a game full of optimizers.

To be honest, this is my standard approach. I came to dnd from competitive wargaming so min-maxing is my default setting, but it's not really appropriate for RPGs in a friendly setting (in my opinion). Anyone can follow a guide to build an optimal character but it makes things more interesting to challenge yourself.

I'm trying right now to make a single-class strength-based bladelock work, using only the phb. It's good fun.

[mephnick]

To be honest, this is my standard approach. I came to dnd from competitive wargaming so min-maxing is my default setting, but it's not really appropriate for RPGs in a friendly setting (in my opinion). Anyone can follow a guide to build an optimal character but it makes things more interesting to challenge yourself.

Yep, that's what I do. Honestly some ideas I have are so dumb I struggle to get to the power level of my unoptimized teammates. Or I try and steer players I know will struggle to certain classes. Like, man, you can't **** up a Paladin in 5e, they're too damn good. I think it's virtually impossible.

[PracticalM]

This is a long way of getting at: Has anybody else with deep optimizing instincts gotten into a group with friends that absolutely do not have those instincts? I genuinely wish that I could kill off my current character and create a gnome grappler. It's fun, I'm glad I'm playing, but every time the bard tries to hit something with an axe my eye starts to twitch a little. So far I've just let the DM know that I don't mind rerolling if another death pops up and tried to bottle up any bits of frustration I feel. Any other suggestions?
.

I would ask/work with your GM to help build action cards for players. I did this with new players and it helps when they have colored 3x5 cards (colored by action, bonus action, reaction) with their abilities and spells.

This way they have a better way to see what they can do. Sometimes people just forget what their characters can do.

If they were having fun being sub-optimized that would be different but this sounds like a teaching opportunity.

[Sir cryosin]

If you want to build a grappler. You should pick up the grappler feat because grappling someone only makes there movement speed 0. It doesn't give anything else. But with the grappler feat you can turn a grapple condition to a restrained condition. That's the condition you want to put on enemy's.

[Mikal]

If it gets under your skin, that is your problem. Didn't your parents teach you anything about not giving advice unless asked?

Yeah. How dare someone want to actually have people who know how to play the game instead of people who don't have a clue

[TheUser]

If it was me and I had to carry a bunch of noobies with min/maxing I'd re-roll a human Variant Paladin with resillient Constitution (+1 Str +1 Cha for 16's where it counts).
With sword and board + defensive fighting style the paladin is at 21 AC in no time.

The more important take-away is that the character has bless and a great concentration save to use with it. Bless is the go to "save the noobs" spell. +1d4 to hit and saves means that the party just generally succeeds more at attacking and not dying.

It is a REALLY strong early level spell that carries weight well into tier 2. Best of all it affects it's own concentration check. With 16 Con and the Resillient Feat it's +6 naturally to con saves and bless for another guaranteed +1 which means a roll of 3 or lower on the d20 is needed combined with a 1 on bless die to fail concentration. Now he can stay in the frontline and not worry about losing concentration.

Paladins are also a tank that can heal themselves!

After level 6 concentration saves are only made at or above 22 damage (+3 from con, +3 from cha, +3 from proficiency and rolling a 1 doesn't autofail saves). It also bolsters the save protection even moreso. A party that gets +4-7 on saves is going to have a lot more fun surviving.

[furby076]

If its really bothering you, ask the dm to let you retool. Explain why. He will appreciate it. Personally, i would be the best i could be and try to keep the party alive. You guys already had one death....the party needs you at peak.


There is no right or wrong answer, except for what makes the game fun for all

[Beelzebubba]

Your group sounds like a better match for Dungeon World than D&D, honestly.

There's so much wargame and number-crunching mentality in the rules that obscure the intent of the character classes, which is why it's easy for a newbie Bard to think in terms of melee - since those numbers are so front-and-center - and miss the big class features that take more investigation to uncover. Lots of newer games are better at surfacing that stuff in a more approachable way, and they enable that kind of 'I don't know what I'm doing beer and pretzels' mentality in a way without risking killing the fun.

Barring that, yeah, you're a college graduate auditing a Sophomore high school class. Gotta chill out and embrace the chaos, and just be an example that they turn to for advice and then wait for them to ask.

[jhonnyd812]

Update: Last session bard was much much better after a talk with the DM. Was a massive bump up. Just wrapped up the current campaign, will still probably reroll to something with a bit more RP for the next round. Thanks everyone for the feedback and ideas!