Replacing 1st party classes

[Laurent]

Hello, I'd wand to start a new campaign with a more "original" choice of classes for my players.
So, I want to remove as much Paizo classes as possible and replace them with equivalent concepts from Path of War, Spheres of Power, Akashic Mysteries and Ultimate Psionics.

For example, Bard can be replaced with Hedgewitch (with charlatanism and spiritualism traditions) or Paladin can be replaced by Mageknight (with warrior of the holy light archetype).
I think Magus and Witch could be replaced by Hedgewitch too (with which traditions ??).
Incanter could replace Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric depending on specializations...

Which ones do you know ?

[GreatGoatEater]

Replace in what way? Thematically, mechanically, or both? What are you hoping to accomplish with this?Spheres can encompass pretty much all of your casting/manifesting classes, since the fluff is meant to be mutable. Also consider that third party classes tend to have much less baked in fluff than 1st party classes, which may cause some issues if you're allowing all these sources.

For example, an Ordained Defender or Any Zealot will probably blow a Warrior of Holy Light Mage Knight out of the water, even though all three can easily call themselves "paladins".

Anyway, obviously use Psionic classes to represent the Occult classes. Since Occult classes are just bootleg Psionics anyway.

[Laurent]

First thematically and secondary mechanically.
The theme is important, but also some "iconic" capacities, like rage for barbarian, "buff through inspiration" from bard, hexes for witches, ...

Here's what I want :
"- Hey I'd like to play a Paladin !
- Ok, so you can play a Warrior of the holy light, he can smite, lay on hands, and you'll use sphere magic, it's a new system blah blah blah...
- Yeah cool !"
Here's what I don't want :
"- Hey I'd like to play a Barbarian !
- Ok, so you can take a Warder with the Primal fury discipline. You'll be like a barbarian but more defensive
- Can I rage ?
- ... no, sorry...
- Can I play a Barbarian ?"

[legomaster00156]

Well, if you're looking for some of the iconic abilities, they may be harder to find/recreate. Most 3rd-party classes aren't designed to perfectly recreate a 1st-party class, since they expect such classes are still on the table.

[Laurent]

In fact, I'd like to discuss something like this :
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427261-Replacing-Core-Classes&p=21796314

Updated and with all classes, not only the 11 core classes.

[exelsisxax]

In fact, I'd like to discuss something like this :
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427261-Replacing-Core-Classes&p=21796314

Updated and with all classes, not only the 11 core classes.

That's basically just a detailed refutation of the idea of replacing 1pp classes. Some simply have too iconic of an ability that can't be replicated(barbarian, bard), some are garbage tier and have 1pp replacements themselves(fighter/chained classes), and most others can be replicated in several ways. There's no sensible way of going about this.

If you want to ban vancian magic, just say that. There's plenty of SoP classes, SoP 1pp classarchetypes, and noncasting archetypes for basically everything. You're going into "you made a fighter? redo it as a warlord" territory if you actually think you can decree class replacements.

[EldritchWeaver]

As the creator of the referenced thread, two years GM experience have shifted my view somewhat. Originally I wanted to limit the number of classes because I wasn't familiar with all the stuff and feared to be overloaded. Now I would be more ok with keeping most 1PP classes around (assuming I know the basic mechanic and am willing to deal with it on the DM side), if the weak classes would be beefed up and caster classes use a SoP conversion (though not necessarily the ones provided officially so far - they are a bit too shoddy and need a rework).

So what sources I would use?

Obviously Spheres of Power. SoP keeps getting better and better with the additional handbooks, although I do not necessarily agree with every decision made (Mass Meld, I'm looking at you).

Path of War I'm ambivalent now. I have played to a small extent with a single character (a warshifter) and I am not happy with him. It might be a bit a of a game curse there, as other players suffer also from bad luck, but it seems I ended up creating a sub-optimal build. I ended up using basically the same maneuvers, which often missed, and then had a round to recharge them. So whatever potential there is, I couldn't unleash it. In the end, I'm thinking of switching to the prodigy Spheres of Might class for this char.

Which leads me to the next problem. PoW is mechanically a vancian magic system and I'm not happy with vancian systems in general. Using it leaves a bad taste, which prevents me from improving my system mastery with this. While I don't mind that players in my game have chosen characters from PoW at this moment, I do worry being able to challenge them in the future. That's why I'm thinking about removing PoW from the class roster (no, I'd just not allow new PoW chars made), if Spheres of Might can live up its promise.

Spheres of Might is at least very similar to SoP from a design principle, so it is right up in my alley. But the lack of personal experience with it and still having gotten around to read all of the material (but I'm making progress there) makes me hesitate to allow it in general already. I'm planning to integrate NPCs which use the combat spheres and classes (the commander is the class, which I'm missing in one of my encounters, so it's great I can get to fill these guys out). It is the very least fun to think about uses for certain talents, so I have high hopes for it.

Overall, I'm comfortable with one magic system and one martial system. It means that I can attain system mastery easier and so use that to create more varied encounters. Having a high overlap between NPCs/personal PCs and the player's PCs in regards of classes also helps, because I can learn tactics when I play and use them in my game, as vice versa. Case in point: A player of mine used to create a big area of mist to cover their escape. I'm thinking about using that tactic to cover an attack as player in another game.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Have you considered just making the conversion archetypes mandatory? Like a Barbarian is allowed but must take at least one of Primal Disciple, Becomer, or Raging Beast? Bloodrager and other classes with no conversion would still be banned, of course.

[digiman619]

Well, Spheres of Might is coming out (hopefully) in a few months, and that will have a good magic system and archetypes to convert martial classes to SoM. as well as good gish support. You may wish to wait until then.

[Ssalarn]

A lot of the Akashic Mysteries classes are made to bridge a couple concepts. Daevic can be a good replacement for either Barbarian or Paladin (passion depending), and Vizier is kind of somewhere between a Bard and a Sorcerer, depending on what veils you go with. Guru does some variations on Monk and Ninja, with the Akasin philosophy serving as a kind of goodly/light-themed inquisitor.


Well, Spheres of Might is coming out (hopefully) in a few months, and that will have a good magic system and archetypes to convert martial classes to SoM. as well as good gish support. You may wish to wait until then.

Spheres of Might should be out really soon. Adam was actually indicating that he's going to try and have the .pdf out before the end of the month, though I think we're cutting it a bit close there.

Note that SoM is more focused on the martials and 1/2 casters, while the dual sphere classes like the Sage and Troubadour will actually be in Champions of the Spheres, the follow-up book that blends Spheres of Might and Spheres of Power.