Bag of Holding + Party + Stealth

[Easy_Lee]

I've talked about this one before, and it's started an argument every time. Clearly, this needs its own thread.

A group of players cast Pass Without Trace, then they all get into a Bag of Holding carried by the payer with the highest Stealth check.

As per the 5e text for this item, "Breathing creatures inside the bag can survive up to a number of minutes equal to 10 divided by the number of creatures (minimum 1 minute), after which time they begin to suffocate."

Let's say we have two minutes. The sneak enters the dungeon, moves through it at a rapid pace, and from time to time cycles out the air in the bag. In this way, his group avoids combat encounters, going straight to whichever part of the dungeon they choose. The likelihood that anything will fairly detect the sneaking player is low.

Questions for DMs:

Would you allow this, or would you come up with some reason why it doesn't work in your game?
Would you punish the players for doing this?
Would you require all players to leave the bag in order to recycle the air, or would opening it be good enough?
How do you feel when players try this sort of thing?
.
This is a well-known trick, so I expect most people have either heard of, seen, or tried it before. It should be interesting to read the responses. I don't expect any sort of consensus.

[MadBear]

I'd handle this the way Matthew Coville did (a good youtuber DM).

He basically said that the air didn't cycle, and once used up, there was no more air in the bag for use.

If I didn't do that, I'd probably make up an arbitrary amount of time it took for the bag to refill with air.

[DivisibleByZero]

I wouldn't let the air cycle either. You've got two minutes. Go. After that, everyone has to exit the bag, let it reset (maybe a few minutes), and get back in. Hardly convenient.
And what's more, I wouldn't let the spell affect the carrier of the bag unless the person carrying the bag was the caster, as the inside of the bag is extradimentional, and spells won't cross it.

If the bag carrier gets ambushed, it will likely be a TPK as he'll go down and everyone else will suffocate. Use this tactic at your own risk.

[MadBear]

To add a bit,

I think the use of a bag of holding in this way is kinda ingenious and pretty smart. I'd definitely let it work for a bit. It also can become kind of a crutch though. Dungeons would start to get old as this trick was repeated over and over. So considering this isn't really the intended use of a bag of holding, I'd let it work for awhile, but the amount of air would diminish over time.

[Aett_Thorn]

I'd say that it takes an action for each PC to get in and out of the bag. So out of that two minutes, 1 minute is going to be spent just getting in and out. If the party still wants to do it, it's basically assuming that the Rogue/Sneaky guy can get to the next safe area in under a minute.

[Sir cryosin]

This will only work if the hole party are gnomes and halflings

This is the first part of the bag of holding description

This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.

[GorogIrongut]

Bag of Holding. This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet. The bag weighs 15 pounds, regardless of its contents.
If the bag is overloaded, pierced, or torn, it ruptures and is destroyed, and its contents are scattered in the Astral Plane.

1. People + gear can weigh quite a bit. You couldn't fit many people in a bag of holding weightwise.

2. Even if they could fit in, they have to get around the size limitations.
It says the dimensions are 2' diameter at the mouth. That's an obstruction for anything large. If you do the actual math 2'x4'x8' is about what we should expect the interior to look like (2' mouth/4' deep/8' width in the bottom) if we're playing roughly with the calculations. I would argue that it is actually 4' wide/4' long/4' deep as that gives us the perfect 64 cubic feet... just that it has a 2' diameter entrance into that space.

You would have to contort to fit within that space if you were anything beyond a small creature. Trying to fit multiples of contorted people, with limited oxygen would not be very nice. Few would actually want to repeat it.

3. If the bag of holding is ever damaged... then the whole party scatters across the astral plane... Simple spells like shatters could send shards to rip a hole in the lining of the bag, doing this. A dagger thrust could do this. This is a HUGE, party ending risk. I'm not sure it's worth it for a slight increase in ease going through a dungeon.


If my party tried this trick, I wouldn't stop them. I would however highlight the risk/rewards and limitations of it.

[Aett_Thorn]

This will only work if the hole party are gnomes and halflings

This is the first part of the bag of holding description

This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.

Fair point, there. Although now I want to turn this into a character concept. A big, hulking Goliath stares up at the giant facing him. The Giant smiles as it draws its axe, and states, "You wil not make for a worthy adversary, but I hope that you live long enough to make my day interesting."

DM - "What do you do?"

Goliath player: "I throw my Bag of Gnomes at it."

DM - "Your what?"

GP: "May Bag of Holding containing 5 Gnomish Barbarians that will swarm out and hack at the giant with their tiny little swords."

[smcmike]

1. I wouldn't allow you to "cycle" the air without taking the creatures out of the bag.
2. Most dungeons cannot be completely solved with sneak, no matter how high your check.
3. Most dungeons can't be sneaked through within 3 minutes.
4. This method invites disaster - if the solo sneaker is taken out before he can let everyone out of the bag, the rest of the party dies a horrible death.
5. My character is claustrophobic. Even if you can technically fit him in the bag with the rest of the party, he isn't doing that. It sounds truly horrible.
6. How do you define "fair" and "unfair?" If I design dungeons with various points that cannot be sneaked by, is that unfair?

[Easy_Lee]

Fair point, there. Although now I want to turn this into a character concept. A big, hulking Goliath stares up at the giant facing him. The Giant smiles as it draws its axe, and states, "You wil not make for a worthy adversary, but I hope that you live long enough to make my day interesting."

DM - "What do you do?"

Goliath player: "I throw my Bag of Gnomes at it."

DM - "Your what?"

GP: "May Bag of Holding containing 5 Gnomish Barbarians that will swarm out and hack at the giant with their tiny little swords."

Be sure to first say, "Say hello to my little friends."

The response has surprised me. You guys are even less keen to players dodging your encounters than most of the DMs I've met in person. There are plenty of ways to rule that this works, and plenty of ways to rule that it doesn't or otherwise nerf it to uselessness. That's why I asked this particular question. It says a lot about the DM.

[Aett_Thorn]

Be sure to first say, "Say hello to my little friends."

The response has surprised me. You guys are even less keen to players dodging your encounters than most of the DMs I've met in person. There are plenty of ways to rule that this works, and plenty of ways to rule that it doesn't or otherwise nerf it to uselessness. That's why I asked this particular question. It says a lot about the DM.

I don't mind the players dodging encounters. I just don't think that this is a particularly effective way of doing it.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This is a known and used tactic by both my players and certain enemies in my games. Players have almost died due to the rogue in question getting held up in a bad situation, entire armies of zombies have suddenly appeared out of nowhere, bottles of air are a hot commodity, and warped extradimensional space is considered a terrifying trap due to the effects it can have on occupied bags of holding.

It's still mostly used in a pinch, not as a primary means of evading everything. Portals and teleportation are a lot more useful and less prone to failure/subverting as, again, a lot of NPC's know, use, and counter the same exact tactic. A more popular bag of holding exploit for my groups involves rocks + stealth + mage hand.

[Joe the Rat]

This will only work if the hole party are gnomes and halflings

This is the first part of the bag of holding description

This bag has an interior space considerably larger than its outside dimensions, roughly 2 feet in diameter at the mouth and 4 feet deep. The bag can hold up to 500 pounds, not exceeding a volume of 64 cubic feet.
To be fair, there's quite a few rogues that would fit through that particular pipe. Shoulders and armor are the biggest impediments.
But for small creatures - totally doable. Which means the ones most capable of hiding out in Bag End are the ones with the best chances of stealth to begin with.
(Now, if you were talking portable holes...)
Also, 10 minutes is probably enough time for a decent kidnapping. Just sayin'.

...
For my group, the Bag of Gnoming is a thing. The party routinely used it to put the Gnome Cleric in Time Out. I ruled that open-bag, preferably open-bag-and-chimney for air exchange will work long term. The issue was simplified by the Gnome getting himself killed, so air quality isn't as much of an issue. He now has his own bag, with a tear-resistant waterproof outer shell, which he uses as a portable apothecary and undead minion storage. (He opted to keep the inside rippable. He likes having the "Get Out of Reality Free" card for emergencies.)

So:
1) Get a good leather liner. chain is the classic, but that's a fair bit of weight. a leather shell should avoid accidents, provided you practice good sharps management.
2) Skeletons are pretty skinny. A little prep-work, and they'll stow nicely, gear included. If you don't need them on-notice, just dump the bones into the bag, then pour them out when it's time to animate.
3) Sack of Gnome Barbarians is awesome!

[Provo]

Be sure to first say, "Say hello to my little friends."

The response has surprised me. You guys are even less keen to players dodging your encounters than most of the DMs I've met in person. There are plenty of ways to rule that this works, and plenty of ways to rule that it doesn't or otherwise nerf it to uselessness. That's why I asked this particular question. It says a lot about the DM.

I love for players to find interesting ways past encounters. However, restrictions are still important. Operating within those restrictions is one of the fun challenges of this game.

-I will enforce limited air. (Though I may give an extra minute for the attempt to recycle)

-I will enforce weight limits.

- The caster can't concentrate on players in different dimensions.

Yes, these are tight restrictions. No, I am not punishing players. I think it is an awesome idea, and I am excited to see what the players do about these restrictions.

[Lombra]

So, there are 10 minutes of air to breathe, I'd rule that it takes 10 minutes to reset the air inside the bag, without creatures breathing in it, it just feels reasonable.
Has an opening which is 2ft in diameter, it's fairly small (~61cm), so probably medium creatures wearing armor won't be able to fit through the hole, but small races should be able to fit through even in heavy armor.
Next, the mass within the bag can't exceed 500lb (~230 kg), three myselves wouldn't be able to fit even with nothing but clothes on, but an halfling weighs around 40lbs in this edition, so up to 12 naked halflings could fit in it (don't picture it in your head). Since adventurers will likely wear equipment, and probably just armor + weapon in such circumstance, an halfling, say, rogue, would weigh about 13(studded)+40(himself)+1(dagger)+3(hand crossbow)+1.5(bolts)+3(clothes)=61.5lb, so now the number is reduced to 6 deadly halfling rogues for 1 minute.

Now, let's hope that the steaalthy guy doesn't step in a portable hole or another extradimensional space ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), it would be a nice plot hook.

Now, this method, if it will ever happen in a game, will likely involve 2 PCs, tops, that would enter the bag, and it is a legitimate trump card to play at the right moment, not broken, not gonna ruin a game, it has risks, relies on one single stealth check, and could potentially kill the whole party. I say that it is a clever and legitimate trick, with sufficiently reasonable limitations.

Edit: for the pass without trace part, if the stealthy skulker guy is a shadow monk, then no problem, he'll cast PwT by himself, if the caster enters the bag, I can see arguments both to make the spell not have effect outside of the bag, and to allow it to work regardless, it depends on how one thinks a bag of holding extradimensional space works, it may simply be magically large, or be a gate to an extradimensional space, which, depending on the setting's definition of dimension, may mean that people in the bag are on another plane of existence, and therefore spells can't reach other planes, or that the extradimensional space is actually there, making it possible for range-based spells to effect the surroundings of the bag.

[DivisibleByZero]

Be sure to first say, "Say hello to my little friends."

The response has surprised me. You guys are even less keen to players dodging your encounters than most of the DMs I've met in person. There are plenty of ways to rule that this works, and plenty of ways to rule that it doesn't or otherwise nerf it to uselessness. That's why I asked this particular question. It says a lot about the DM.

I don't mind players dodging encounters if they come up with a reasonable and creative way to do it. This isn't reasonable. The rules for the bag itself say it isn't reasonable.
In fact, we used to use a variation of this tactic, but not with the party.
We captured a lesser mummy in the bag, and would throw him at enemies.
What we didn't know was that the DM was granting him XP like a PC, and we used him enough that eventually his challenge rating rose to the point where he out-leveled us and became a greater mummy.
We were not high enough level, nor equipped/prepared well enough to deal with a greater mummy. The next time we threw that bag, things did not go well for us.

[Temperjoke]

Question, what if the individuals hiding within the bag each had a hose that hung out the top of the bag, which they could use to breathe with?

[Easy_Lee]

I don't mind players dodging encounters if they come up with a reasonable and creative way to do it. This isn't reasonable. The rules for the bag itself say it isn't reasonable.
In fact, we used to use a variation of this tactic, but not with the party.
We captured a lesser mummy in the bag, and would throw him at enemies.
What we didn't know was that the DM was granting him XP like a PC, and we used him enough that eventually his challenge rating rose to the point where he out-leveled us.
The next time we threw that bag, things did not go well for us.

Right, and this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. People disagree as to what is and is not reasonable. In real life, I've heard stories of people driving around with friends in their trunks, when the car ran out of space. Those people don't typically suffer from a vengeful God trying extra hard to get them into a car accident. But in D&D? You might.

Using the bag to throw a mummy seems even less objectionable, but as you've shown, some DMs will find interesting ways to interfere with that strategy. In 5e, a halfling Undying Warlock might spend most of his time in a Bag of Holding with no problem. However, if the DM so chooses, that Bag of Holding will soon be the target of Bad Things. Yes, the same Bag of Holding that somehow wasn't damaged when a red dragon breathed upon its carrier will totally be damaged by that random rusty spike trap...

But like I said, I brought this up because I think it's an interesting question. It's a bit of a measuring stick for what kind of DM you're playing with.

[Sir cryosin]

I'd handle this the way Matthew Coville did (a good youtuber DM).

He basically said that the air didn't cycle, and once used up, there was no more air in the bag for use.

If I didn't do that, I'd probably make up an arbitrary amount of time it took for the bag to refill with air.

His party was using a portable hole not a bag of holding.

[Aett_Thorn]

Things like this I think that most DMs would allow on an irregular basis. However, if the players kept using this strategy over and over, I think that you'd then get into a 'creativity war' with the DM, as he put barriers up to prevent it, like making the time between safe areas too far. Then the players try to get even more creative, by creating an air bubble in the bag somehow. Then the DM puts up anti-magic fields in the way. And now every dungeon has an anti-magic field for no other reason than to prevent this sort of thing. Etc. Etc.

Rule of Cool is great as long as it doesn't then become Rule of "Oh great, this again." And even the most lenient DM will, after a while of these shenanigans, put a random Portable Hole disguised as a doorway, and then you've all blown yourselves to kingdom come.

[DivisibleByZero]

Using the bag to throw a mummy seems even less objectionable, but as you've shown, some DMs will find interesting ways to interfere with that strategy.

Well, a mummy fits, and it doesn't have to breathe. So there was nothing to object to.

And we didn't consider it "him find interesting ways to interfere with that strategy" as you put it. We considered it a ridiculous amount of fun.
"Say hello to my little...."
***hey, since when can he do that....?***
[I] Oh my God it killed Kenny! And now it's coming for us! Run for your lives!"

It wasn't "interference," it was one of the most memorable and fun game nights I've ever had.

[Zorku]

Because somebody has already posted the capacity of a bag of holding I won't cover that again. Besides that, I have two issues with this:

1: Hide is not invisbility. You need to remain in cover or be obscured to remain hidden. Most dungeons are fairly dark, so going down a corridor may be fine, but the first time you hit a room with a lit torch, you're very limited in the ways that you can move without being revealed. Darkvision only gives dim light (iirc, "lightly obscured") so that doesn't kill sneaks, but that damn torch definitely will get in the way, and any place that's better lit or is inhabited by creatures with other types of sight is also going to kill your ability to sneak through the place.

2: Exploring a dungeon takes time. In modern play we don't tend to have the actual players try and make a map, and your passive perception implies that there's just a default perception check in every room "for anything dangerous or worth money." If you look at the old school rigamarole of dungeoneering then it takes closer to 10 minutes to visually scan a new room and actually make sure that you're not walking into a death trap. Clearing the bandits out of some run down keep actually does take more like 3 hours, rather than the 84 seconds or so that people seem to assume you can spend waltzing through the floorplan that's laid out right in front of them these days.

Older editions used a lot of wandering monsters and you rolled for those things about once an hour (or on specific trigger actions,) but 5e's 'rulings not rules' approach hasn't really given any of us any sense of how long it actually takes to creep through a bunch of ancient crumbling masonry while you try not to get shot in the chest by some crossbow trap. We don't understand how heavily everyone is squinting to make out what they're looking at (on youtube there's a lovely video about the torch by Lindybeige,) or any of the myriad reasons that you don't just move at full speed through a dungeon environment.

-

Beyond that, I'm not going to stop air from flowing in and out of an open bag of holding, so if you've got it just sitting on a cart and you've got a few people huddled in it without most of their gear on them, you should easily enough be able to move through some checkpoint with guards that aren't savvy to magical items. Trying to not be seen while you carry around a 15lb bag that you're holding open... not really something that makes sense. At least have the wizard cast invisibility on you if you want to try this kind of crap.

[MadBear]

His party was using a portable hole not a bag of holding.

Ahh, that's right. (It was sooo long ago I forgot).

Anyway more importantly to me, I'm totally fine in my group letting something like this work once or twice. I just don't find it fun and interesting if it becomes a groups only way of solving a problem.

For example. I had a friend who wanted to add +5 damage to his attack if he made an athletics roll to swing a chandellier, and then use the force of leaping off to make him hit harder. I let that work, because it was spontaneous and fun. I wouldn't normally let it work, but it was appropriate for the moment.

Stuffing your friends in a bag of holding would be fun for a few dungeons. If 10 dungeons later that was still your only solution to that problem, I think we have a problem.

[Safety Sword]

How much noise do you think 4 adventurers climbing out of a bag would make? Significant?

Also, how does the character know exactly when to open the bag so that everyone inside doesn't suffocate? Water clock? Hourglass?

How do the characters even know that there is a limited air supply?

[Dalebert]

Does the bag actually say a creature inside can't get out on its own if it's intelligent enough to do so and like, has hands to open the bag? This always seems to be assumed but it's not stated at all. I mean maybe the bag has a latch but you could choose to leave it unlatched.

Things you have to worry about are overloading it. That would be VERY bad news for the people inside, of which there can't be many. Seems like you could maybe get one medium sized creature crouching dowwithout being let out and maybe two small at best.

[Easy_Lee]

I mean, if you want to get really creative just have a gnome tinker everyone some sort of breathing tube that sticks out of the top of the bag.

[Dalebert]

Putting a whole party in there is non-viable but it might help to just put one, like the paladin in plate mail. Once you deal with the particularly egregious violators of quiet, Pass w/o Trace will make everyone else amazing. The druid himself can always be reasonably stealthy with the help of wildshape, or the shadow monk.

[greenstone]

It is a clever tactic.

It has a few limitations, though.

No-one in the party is going to be using any large weapons. No polearms, greataxes, two-handed swords. Nothing longer than 4ft.

Smaller weapons will have to be sheathed or wrappped. You can't just hang your handaxes on your belt as like you usually do, you'll have to wrap the ends. Don't want to puncture the inside of the bag.

The same goes for armour. Metal armour is going to have sharp and pointy bits (buckle edges, the ends of greaves and pauldrons, shield bosses, etc).

That party getting out of the bag is going to have to spend half the next combat just getting ready to fight.

Unless they are monks. Or monkeys. Or Monkee Monks. Now that would be cool!

[Mellack]

Unless they are monks. Or monkeys. Or Monkee Monks. Now that would be cool!

Oh, now I am picturing these guys stuffed into your bag of holding.


https://i.pinimg.com/236x/5f/af/f2/5faff2596e97f21f7ea42e54911f23a3.jpg


Sorry, I couldn't resist and am probably showing my age.

[Safety Sword]

I mean, if you want to get really creative just have a gnome tinker everyone some sort of breathing tube that sticks out of the top of the bag.

And you assume your physical material plane breathing tube just connects to the extra-dimensional space inside the bag in a contiguous manner.

[Sorlock Master]

Questions for DMs:

Would you allow this, or would you come up with some reason why it doesn't work in your game?
Would you punish the players for doing this?
Would you require all players to leave the bag in order to recycle the air, or would opening it be good enough?
How do you feel when players try this sort of thing?
.

-Yes it's clearly allowed there is no point in debating it.

-Define punish.

-No but your going to be wafting air into a grocery bag every 2 minutes.

-Its inventive which I support, but stupid in the long run.

Look I realize it sounds super smart, and im going to say something that I have said a thousand times before to players. Just because you CAN sneak past all the peons in a Dungeon dosen't mean you SHOULD. Because while 5 peons isn't much of a threat 100 peons are a big problem to deal with.

This isn't me punishing them. It's me not coddling them. If you have a piss poor plan or worse a high risk piss poor plan and it goes south. Don't blame the DM. YOU snuck past all the encounters and now your in a Large ante-chamber with 200 Orcs pouring into the room and A War Boss with no where to run or hide, becasue the Fighter in full plate rolled a 1 for his stealth check (because thats never happened) when getting out of the bag of holding. Thats not me being a jerk, thats you being a less then apt adventurer.

[Mortheim]

If they would come up with this idea by themselves (not reading on some forum) - sure, why not? But i would put fair amount of time to enter/leave the bag. And, at some point, it is 100% their bearer would be noticed and they will have huge chance to get into trouble. It shouldn't be reliable way to skip things.

[Easy_Lee]

If they would come up with this idea by themselves (not reading on some forum) - sure, why not? But i would put fair amount of time to enter/leave the bag. And, at some point, it is 100% their bearer would be noticed and they will have huge chance to get into trouble. It shouldn't be reliable way to skip things.

Shouldn't from a game perspective, or from a realism perspective? Also, how would you tell if they came up with it on their own?

[imanidiot]

The size limitations of the interior of the bag have already been brought up, so I'll leave that alone. Also, take into account that if the opening of the bag is only 2' in diameter only one person at a time is going to be able to get out. In combat I would say one per round.

[smcmike]

I keep coming back to how thoroughly unpleasant this would be to experience. You are jammed into an extra-dimensional bag, along with another person or two, with no room move and enough air for a couple of minutes? Imagine being stuffed into a large sleeping bag with two friends, zipping the top closed, and having the whole bag hoisted into the air. No thank you.

[Dalebert]

Unless they are monks. Or monkeys. Or Monkee Monks. Now that would be cool!

I just made a monkey monk. Really he's just a Monk-ee. He's long death monk with 2 lvl dip in moon druid. He will occasionally be an ape though more often he'll be kung fu panda.

[Zanthy1]

What about a portable hole instead of a bag of holding? I am away from the books, but I believe that would accomplish the task. Party enters the space, can last I believe an hour before suffocation, and the sneaky dude sneaks past everything until its time to open the hole and let everyone out. Probably;y not viable in combat, but could work

[Mellack]

What about a portable hole instead of a bag of holding? I am away from the books, but I believe that would accomplish the task. Party enters the space, can last I believe an hour before suffocation, and the sneaky dude sneaks past everything until its time to open the hole and let everyone out. Probably;y not viable in combat, but could work

The Hole specifies you can breathe for 10 minutes before you start to suffocate. Oddly, that doesn't vary with the number of creatures like the Bag does.

[Malifice]

What a shockingly bad tactic.

One flubbed Stealth and/or Perception check, and its curtains for the entire party.

I could see an argument for sneaking people into somewhere (a Kings ball, where only one PC has an invite kind of thing) but walking into a hostile enemy camp, with 4/5 of the party in a pocket dimension?

Pass.

[90sMusic]

Would you allow this, or would you come up with some reason why it doesn't work in your game?
The bag is only 2 feet in diameter, and I don't envision that as a perfect circle either but more as when you stretch a handbag to it's widest possible point where the 2 sides are squished together to compensate. It simply isn't large enough of an opening for most people to fit into. Gnomes and Halflings could get in there with some effort, but any larger creature simply wouldn't fit. It also only holds 500 pounds which means if you have two big dudes that weigh at least 200 and some change, you won't have room for another person weight-wise even if they could fit through the opening.

IF the entire party were halflings and gnomes, i'd allow it. If they used polymorph or something else to make themselves smaller, i'd allow it. But you can't fit full sized people into a bag of holding, they're just too large.

Would you punish the players for doing this?
Absolutely not. Especially if they used spells like reduce person, polymorph, or whatever else because it's expending resources to accomplish a task. Even if they were an all gnome group, I would not arbitrarily punish them for that.

I know a lot of DM's are just jerks that like to make crap up on the fly just to hurt their players. For instance, using a stealth tactic like this, a DM is liable to introduce a new room or problem that they can't sneak by, even if it did not exist when they entered the dungeon. I don't do that crap to my players.

I will say though, often times my players end up with long term enemies they will face numerous times because they're part of some larger organization or just a rival group of a handful of individuals. As soon as information gets out that these guys are using this sort of tactic, they could easily set a trap for them and try to grab that bag of holding. From there, they could let them all suffocate, throw them in some kind of prison, or whatever else they wanted. But it isn't arbitrary punishment, it is just a reasonable evolution of tactics from their cunning adversaries. A group of nobody enemies that were unrelated and had no way of knowing they used this sort of tactic wouldn't have any plans to counter it or be aware of it.

Would you require all players to leave the bag in order to recycle the air, or would opening it be good enough?
I think this particular ruling depends largely on how a DM chooses to believe a bag of holding works. If you consider it a constantly open portal into a large, open space with dimensions listed in the DMG, then opening the bag is enough to fill it with fresh air. But if you treat it more like items you place inside just sort of teleport into the extradimensional space and then when you stick your hand in there you just imagine what you want to pull out of it and it sort of appears in your hand, then using those rules it wouldn't work to fill it with more air.

I think that distinction alone is largely what determines whether people let you put more air in there by opening it or not. Something to consider though, is if it was just an enormous, always open space through a portal, getting items out of it would be incredibly hard to do, especially small things that would fall to the bottom of the space.

How do you feel when players try this sort of thing?
I let players do just about anything I think would reasonably work. If they try to stick full grown adult humans into a bag, it aint gonna work. If they try to stick a bunch of small animals or shrunk people into a bag, that is reasonable.

[Dalebert]

It's a little silly. A person can last in a sealed coffin for about an hour. A portable hole should provide multiple hours for a single person. And a bag of holding seems only slightly smaller than a typical coffin.

[Malifice]

Player: I'll sneak through the darkened room carrying the other PCs in the bag of Holding [rolls Stealth; gets an 18].
DM: (Having determined there are 5 x Shadow demons in the room, tasked to keep watch, rolls Perception for them, scoring a 19, indicating they notice the PC. He also notes the demons are themselves hiding with Stealth check results of 22) Ok.. hmmm... make me a Perception check.
Player:[Rolls] Another good roll - a 19!
DM: [noting the Shadow demons are aware of the PC, and he is not aware of them] As you move through the room, several (the DM designed this encounter to be a medium-hard encounter for 5 PCs, not 1 single PC] dark shapes glide towards you and attack! Roll initiative, you're surprised on round one.
PC: Crap. [Rolls] an 11.
DM: [Rolls] Its a 17. The Shadows go first. [The first shadow demon attacks the PC from Hiding, at advantage. Then the second demon does the same. Then the third demon. Then the fourth demon. Then Demon number 5]. The demons then use their bonus actions to again Hide (rolling higher than the PCs passive perception) Right its now your turn. You're surprised, and cant take actions or move, and your turn ends. In any event you can no longer see the Demons as they appear to have faded back into the gloom. You can now take reactions. Its now round 2 and the Shadows get another turn...]
PC: Gulp.
DM: (Shadows make 5 more attacks against the PC at advantage for being hidden, killing him. They then use bonus actions to again Hide in the gloom of the room).

DM: Right guys [turns to other Players]. Minutes pass in the darkness of the bag. It feels like an eternity. As the air starts to run out, you all panic, but assure yourselves its only a matter of time before the bag opens. But the bag never opens. You all die, alone, afraid and gasping for air. Time to roll new PCs!.

[Provo]

I have seen it argued a few times that a persons shoulders can't fit.

Just a note, the average shoulder width of a man is 1.5 feet. A person can easily fit through a hole with a diameter of 2 feet. That's a bit bigger than a manhole cover.

Trying to fit a Goliath is a different story. Likewise, fitting a whole team in 64 cubic feet of bag sounds pretty uncomfortable.

[MadBear]

Player: I'll sneak through the darkened room carrying the other PCs in the bag of Holding [rolls Stealth; gets an 18].
DM: (Having determined there are 5 x Shadow demons in the room, tasked to keep watch, rolls Perception for them, scoring a 19, indicating they notice the PC. He also notes the demons are themselves hiding with Stealth check results of 22) Ok.. hmmm... make me a Perception check.
Player:[Rolls] Another good roll - a 19!
DM: [noting the Shadow demons are aware of the PC, and he is not aware of them] As you move through the room, several (the DM designed this encounter to be a medium-hard encounter for 5 PCs, not 1 single PC] dark shapes glide towards you and attack! Roll initiative, you're surprised on round one.
PC: Crap. [Rolls] an 11.
DM: [Rolls] Its a 17. The Shadows go first. [The first shadow demon attacks the PC from Hiding, at advantage. Then the second demon does the same. Then the third demon. Then the fourth demon. Then Demon number 5]. The demons then use their bonus actions to again Hide (rolling higher than the PCs passive perception) Right its now your turn. You're surprised, and cant take actions or move, and your turn ends. In any event you can no longer see the Demons as they appear to have faded back into the gloom. You can now take reactions. Its now round 2 and the Shadows get another turn...]
PC: Gulp.
DM: (Shadows make 5 more attacks against the PC at advantage for being hidden, killing him. They then use bonus actions to again Hide in the gloom of the room).

DM: Right guys [turns to other Players]. Minutes pass in the darkness of the bag. It feels like an eternity. As the air starts to run out, you all panic, but assure yourselves its only a matter of time before the bag opens. But the bag never opens. You all die, alone, afraid and gasping for air. Time to roll new PCs!.

You left out the best/worst part.

after a long hard fought battle with a 5 shadows, the adventuring party looks around the room.

DM: OK everyone roll a perception check
Player: I rolled a natural 20!!!!
DM: among the corpses in this room you find what looks to be an old worn bag of holding
PC: OH Awesome, I reach inside to see what it's last owner put in it.
DM: it feels squishy, slimey, and feels awful, you pull out what looks to be the decomposing arm of a long dead gnome. Roll a constitution check
PC: I rolled a 1
DM: you find yourself retching at this wondering, what kind of sick person stuffs multiple dead bodies in a bag of holding.

[Safety Sword]

You left out the best/worst part.

after a long hard fought battle with a 5 shadows, the adventuring party looks around the room.

DM: OK everyone roll a perception check
Player: I rolled a natural 20!!!!
DM: among the corpses in this room you find what looks to be an old worn bag of holding
PC: OH Awesome, I reach inside to see what it's last owner put in it.
DM: it feels squishy, slimey, and feels awful, you pull out what looks to be the decomposing arm of a long dead gnome. Roll a constitution check
PC: I rolled a 1
DM: you find yourself retching at this wondering, what kind of sick person stuffs multiple dead bodies in a bag of holding.

It's just like the 4-pack of dead gnomes you get at NecroMart. No biggie.

[Thrudd]

I have to say there are too many points against this plan. It is very clear that the space within the bag is not large enough for more than one or two humans in the fetal position, and questionable whether they could even squeeze into the 2ft entrance. Anything in the bag is in an extradimensional space, which is why it runs out of air, so you can't just open the bag to let them breath, you have to take them out. A snorkel like device shouldn't work, since you can't otherwise have things half in and half out of the bag-
either a thing fits in the bag or it doesn't

From an in-world point of view, how do the characters know how much air they have? Unless they have experimented and killed some things to figure it out, that's not information they should have. So doing this is wildly irresponsible and desperate, and could easily kill someone in the bag.

[Sorlock Master]

Dont assume they dont have the tools assume they do. A portable hole is much larger and serves the same function. Ring of invis on a Ranger with a 1 level in rouge means he would have a plus 16 at least with a roll of 5 hes looking at 21, 10 is 26 which is the average roll, if he has advantage the avg. jumps to 15 making the average check 31 in that case even a bad roll is still hovering above 25. This is extreamly doable.

[Mortheim]

Shouldn't from a game perspective, or from a realism perspective? Also, how would you tell if they came up with it on their own?

From both. There is a chance that they will be noticed. There are some creatures that will easily notice them. But we can always adapt.


They had encounter vs drow warrior, who was a bounty hunter. 4 of them were in a cart and warlock on horse. So, warlock got hit by a bolt and failed dc check by 6. She falls from horse and sleeps. The darkness on them and stuff. They throw warlock in a cart after 3 turns and run. Warlock has devil's sight and they know about it. Next - drow wants to send them "farewell" note, e.g. explosive runes. Crit - manages to land bolt with it on cart back. What happenes? While 3 of them on low, bard opens it. Yeah, I will be able to tell xD Also, it took them 30 minutes of rl discussion to work out how they could descend into the chimney of dwarven fortress. 25 minutes of that time they spend figuring out how to untie the rope.
Only one of them is first-timer.

[Contrast]

DM: Right guys [turns to other Players]. Minutes pass in the darkness of the bag. It feels like an eternity. As the air starts to run out, you all panic, but assure yourselves its only a matter of time before the bag opens. But the bag never opens. You all die, alone, afraid and gasping for air. Time to roll new PCs!.

I've never really understood why people think you would close the bag. Why not just leave it open so the PCs can clamber out themselves? Besides which, nothing in the description of the item implies its difficult to open from the inside.

As has been mentioned, this does somewhat depend on how you're fluffing your bag working.


Anything in the bag is in an extradimensional space, which is why it runs out of air, so you can't just open the bag to let them breath, you have to take them out. A snorkel like device shouldn't work, since you can't otherwise have things half in and half out of the bag-
either a thing fits in the bag or it doesn't

From an in-world point of view, how do the characters know how much air they have? Unless they have experimented and killed some things to figure it out, that's not information they should have. So doing this is wildly irresponsible and desperate, and could easily kill someone in the bag.

Homerule in bold? What exactly stops someone in the bag from sticking their head out of the hole, having a look around and taking in a few gulps of air?

That said, the main sticking point for me (aside from the internal space limitations) is getting in and out of the bag. I would say a round would be very generous, if you wanted to do it without any bruising or potential risk to the bag (if you are for instance holding weapons) it would be a multi action event getting in or out.

[Malifice]

I've never really understood why people think you would close the bag. Why not just leave it open so the PCs can clamber out themselves? Besides which, nothing in the description of the item implies its difficult to open from the inside.

The bag doesnt exist on the inside of the bag. Its just an extra dimensional space.

Its not like it shrinks you. You're (literally) no longer in the bag, as soon as you get inside.

[Contrast]

The bag doesnt exist on the inside of the bag. Its just an extra dimensional space.

Its not like it shrinks you. You're (literally) no longer in the bag, as soon as you get inside.

Thought experiment - Room of Holding. Doorway leads to an extra-dimensional room. Does anything in that description imply to you someone inside the room cannot open the doorway the leave? Or that it is impossible to leave the doorway ajar? Nothing about it being an extra-dimensional space implies that the access to that space is one way.

That certainly could be the case but I don't think its intrinsically implied just because we're dealing with an extra-dimensional thing.

Edit - Like the Tardis. It's bigger on the inside but you don't need someone outside to let you out.

[Malifice]

Thought experiment - Room of Holding. Doorway leads to an extra-dimensional room. Does anything in that description imply to you someone inside the room cannot open the doorway the leave? Or that it is impossible to leave the doorway ajar? Nothing about it being an extra-dimensional space implies that the access to that space is one way.

That certainly could be the case but I don't think its intrinsically implied just because we're dealing with an extra-dimensional thing.

Edit - Like the Tardis. It's bigger on the inside but you don't need someone outside to let you out.

How do you reach the bag inside the bag to open it, when there is no bag on the inside to open?

[smcmike]

It's a little silly. A person can last in a sealed coffin for about an hour. A portable hole should provide multiple hours for a single person. And a bag of holding seems only slightly smaller than a typical coffin.

It's a bag, not a box. Empty bags hold about zero minutes of air.



I've never really understood why people think you would close the bag. Why not just leave it open so the PCs can clamber out themselves?

An open bag full of sweaty cramped people in loud armor might interfere with the whole point of the exercise.



Besides which, nothing in the description of the item implies its difficult to open from the inside.

Agreed, but most bags are, so that's how I'd fluff it.


The bag doesnt exist on the inside of the bag. Its just an extra dimensional space.


Interestingly enough, the description of the bag doesn't say anything about an extradimensional space. It's just a bag that's bigger on the inside. My interpretation is that it is very much a bag on the inside.

[ThePolarBear]

Interestingly enough, the description of the bag doesn't say anything about an extradimensional space. It's just a bag that's bigger on the inside. My interpretation is that it is very much a bag on the inside.

"Placing the haversack inside an extradimensional space created by a bag of holding [...]"

Yeah, no mention on the bag itself. This doesn't mean that it is a bag on the inside or that isn't an extradimensional space. Or that it isn't intended to be that way. (clarification: That it might be intended to be a bag on the inside, like "Demiplane" creates a room still being an extradimensional space.)

[smcmike]

"Placing the haversack inside an extradimensional space created by a bag of holding [...]"

Yeah, no mention on the bag itself. This doesn't mean that it is a bag on the inside or that isn't an extradimensional space. Or that it isn't intended to be that way. (clarification: That it might be intended to be a bag on the inside, like "Demiplane" creates a room still being an extradimensional space.)

Oh, good point. I didn't read the texts of the other items all the way to the bottom. I just thought it was interesting that the description of the Haversack and the Hole called the space "extradimensional," but the Bag didn't.

Are there any specific rules about what it means for something to be an "extradimensional space," anyways?

[DivisibleByZero]

Are there any specific rules about what it means for something to be an "extradimensional space," anyways?

Specifc rules? I don't think so.
Common sense telling you that it's a space which doesn't normally exist in our three dimensions? Absolutely.

[smcmike]

Specifc rules? I don't think so.
Common sense telling you that it's a space which doesn't normally exist in our three dimensions? Absolutely.

Sure. I'm just don't see how this is incompatible with saying that the inside of the bag looks like the inside of a bag - it just happens to be bigger on the inside.

[DivisibleByZero]

Sure. I'm just don't see how this is incompatible with saying that the inside of the bag looks like the inside of a bag - it just happens to be bigger on the inside.

What it looks like is irrelevant.
It's an extradimensional space and works as described in its description. Anything beyond that is up to the DM.

[smcmike]

What it looks like is irrelevant.
It's an extradimensional space and works as described in its description. Anything beyond that is up to the DM.

It's pretty relevant to some of the specific questions and objections being raised in this thread, such as using a breathing tube, or opening the bag from the inside. I agree that the answer to these questions is left up to the DM.

[Provo]

It's pretty relevant to some of the specific questions and objections being raised in this thread, such as using a breathing tube, or opening the bag from the inside. I agree that the answer to these questions is left up to the DM.

Also relevant are the rules about puncturing the bag. If it is a bag on the inside (as I thought was the default assumption), then there is no danger of being trapped. Just stab the bag and *poof* you're out

[DivisibleByZero]

Also relevant are the rules about puncturing the bag. If it is a bag on the inside (as I thought was the default assumption), then there is no danger of being trapped. Just stab the bag and *poof* you're out

.... if by "poof, you're out" you mean that the bag is destroyed and you and the rest of your party in the bag are scattered throughout the Astral Plane, then yes, I guess poof, you're out.

[Sir cryosin]

I have seen it argued a few times that a persons shoulders can't fit.

Just a note, the average shoulder width of a man is 1.5 feet. A person can easily fit through a hole with a diameter of 2 feet. That's a bit bigger than a manhole cover.

Trying to fit a Goliath is a different story. Likewise, fitting a whole team in 64 cubic feet of bag sounds pretty uncomfortable.

That's taking in account the person is naked or just wearing a t-shirt. You'll have armor and tools hanging off you all over your body.

[Easy_Lee]

Portable Hole is probably the right thing to use. As others have said, the details of breathing tubes and recycling air are up to the DM.

Regarding detection, it's easy to imagine a party designed for this. Say we have a Shadow Monk / Rogue with expertise and Pass Without Trace. He could have a minimum Stealth check as high as 28 along with superior mobility and saving throws. That will beat any passive perception.

As far as breathing goes, we could go even further and polymorph half of the party into undead, and have an Undying Pact Warlock in the party who, after ten, doesn't need to breath anyway.

Now, obviously, that's a very particular setup that also relies on the DM A) to provide a portable hole and B) to allow Stealth to work at all.

Ultimately, this is an unwise strategy, even though it could realistically work. It relies on the DM to allow it while simultaneously giving him too many opportunities, and too much incentive, to introduce unmanageable complications. It's a bit like building a character for long distance sniping. Even if that works wonderfully in the real world, most DMs will not allow you to detect threats at any great distance no matter how many resources you devote to it. DMs generally don't allow players to fully mitigate "challenge" from danger and dice rolls.

In other words, this is a situation where meta trumps realism.

[ThePolarBear]

As far as breathing goes, we could go even further and polymorph half of the party into undead.

Beast only. Unless using a WAAAY higher level slot. And if you are doing, i guess there are easier and safer methods to do it.

About breathing... I agree it's up to the DM.

But hear me out: If a creature can breathe for 10 minutes, no matter how big or small that creature is, no matter how full (volumetrically speaking) the bag is... then why always 10 minutes? Why 2 ants are 5 minutes of air each, just like 2 humans? Why a human and enough volume for the bag to be "full" would still have space for the air to be in anyway? Doesn't that air occupy a volume, too?

I know, magic!
And i know magic > logic.

It still is interesting to think about it for evaluating a ruling.

[smcmike]

It's a bit like building a character for long distance sniping. Even if that works wonderfully in the real world, most DMs will not allow you to detect threats at any great distance no matter how many resources you devote to it. DMs generally don't allow players to fully mitigate "challenge" from danger and dice rolls.

In other words, this is a situation where meta trumps realism.

I think this is about right.

The comparison with sniping is interesting. I don't know if it's "realism" that is being weighed against the meta, so much. There are plenty of "realistic" scenarios that don't accommodate sniping or sneaking, and the whole concept of a McGuffin that you are sneaking to get is just as contrived as anything else in the challenge.

[Contrast]

How do you reach the bag inside the bag to open it, when there is no bag on the inside to open?

You are assuming that the opening into the extra-dimensional space vanishes on the inside when the opening is closed. That could be true but isn't implied by the item description. Purely DM fiat either way. You aren't locked inside a Tardis until someone opens the door for you from the outside - to get out you simply reach for the door handle and open it.

Even if it does vanish, why not just leave the opening ajar?


Agreed, but most bags are, so that's how I'd fluff it.

I would probably agree that opening a handbag clasp or rucksack from the inside without tearing it is difficult. But not an unreasonable DC of difficultly for any semi-competent rogue type individual. I would never expect a party to suffocate to death due to an inability to open a handbag clasp no matter the circumstances :smallwink:


This all depends on how your DM rules the bag of holding working of course. Difficult to say how a magic extra-dimensional bag should work because its magic that makes it work :smallbiggrin:

[Provo]

.... if by "poof, you're out" you mean that the bag is destroyed and you and the rest of your party in the bag are scattered throughout the Astral Plane, then yes, I guess poof, you're out.

Yeah, but that's just a plot twist. Not a TPK.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, but that's just a plot twist. Not a TPK.

DM-dependent.

[DivisibleByZero]

DM-dependent.

Yeah, but that's just a plot twist. Not a TPK.

That would probably be a TPK for me.
I mean, unless you're okay with running each character's escape from a different plane individually, which would probably takes months of time, during which only one player would actually be playing at any given point because they're all separated.
TPK equivalent is easier for everyone.

[Provo]

That would probably be a TPK for me.
I mean, unless you're okay with running each character's escape from a different plane individually, which would probably takes months of time, during which only one player would actually be playing at any given point because they're all separated.
TPK equivalent is easier for everyone.

I suppose that's fair. No DM wants to run a completely split party, and to do anything else would require DM fiat.

Well, back to the suffocation issue... are there any spells that a low-to-medium level wizard could use as a failsafe if he is in a bag of holding?

[Easy_Lee]

I suppose that's fair. No DM wants to run a completely split party, and to do anything else would require DM fiat.

Well, back to the suffocation issue... are there any spells that a low-to-medium level wizard could use as a failsafe if he is in a bag of holding?

I don't know about what you can do while stuck in the space, but squeezing an air elemental into the bag with you might do the trick. That requires ninth level to conjure.

[MintyNinja]

As a player, we've used similar tactics sparingly so as not to encourage our GM to target our items. The best example was quite literally a prison break situation where the Sorcerer brought the Cleric into the dungeon with Dimension Door, they paralyzed or silenced what guards were there, slipped the portable hole into the cell and had the prisoners hop in for a bit. Then, not 30 seconds later, they're down the street, piling out of the hole in an alley into a waiting carriage to be taken to freedom.

We could have tackled this problem in many directions from a Social Encounter, to a full on Fight for Freedom run, or even an Old Fashioned Sneak in and Break Out. Instead we mixed it up and tried something new. Most of the times when we're willing to do the Bag of Holding or Portable Hole trick, it's just to get one or two people in the party to move at the speed of the fastest possible route. So a Dimension Door or Shadow Stepping Monk.

And sometimes it's just about getting through an obstacle. One time, while GMing myself, I constructed a heist for NPCs to be doing while the PC's are around (and then getting involved in). One of the key components was one thief pushing a Portable Hole through a tiny hole in the wall while his partner popped out the other side after a count of 20. This allowed the NPCs to get a head start on cracking the safe while the PCs dealt with the distraction (a fire in a crowded casino) and the guards. The NPC's didn't know the PCs were going to be there, and so the two groups collided to the laughter and deaths of many. It was fun, and when the Players figured out what happened (ie: there's a portable hole with a Casino's Vault worth of Gold and Silver nearby) they reacted appropriately (ie: Locate Object, Portable Hole!).

My point is that it should be used like an exploit. An ace up the sleeve. Not Plans A through F. It should be an escape plan, or a travel plan, or something cool to use here and there before people start noticing it.