Chain Spell Wish for Inherent Bonuses

[Elkad]

Wish doesn't specify touch range for adding Inherent Bonuses. (and even if it is, you can change touch to ranged several ways)
When used for Inherent Bonuses, it says "a creature", so it's obviously single target.*

Chain Spell is any spell with a range and a target.

So A Chain Spell Wish could apply an Inherent Bonus to up to 20 creatures per casting.

Now you can have "Bonus to Strength Sale: This Tuesday Only!", where you find 20 suckers customers to all pay half price (giving you 10x payout).


So what are the best ways to get Chain Spell onto Wish? Without needing 10th level slots, etc.
Is it on any Domain lists?

[Venger]

Wish doesn't specify touch range for adding Inherent Bonuses. (and even if it is, you can change touch to ranged several ways)
When used for Inherent Bonuses, it says "a creature", so it's obviously single target.*

Chain Spell is any spell with a range and a target.

So A Chain Spell Wish could apply an Inherent Bonus to up to 20 creatures per casting.

Now you can have "Bonus to Strength Sale: This Tuesday Only!", where you find 20 suckers customers to all pay half price (giving you 10x payout).


So what are the best ways to get Chain Spell onto Wish? Without needing 10th level slots, etc.
Is it on any Domain lists?

just the normal way will work: make wish your arcane thesis and layer a couple +0 metamagic feats on it to get it back down to a 9 max.

[ArendK]

Is there a metamagic rod for chaining?

[Venger]

Is there a metamagic rod for chaining?

I don't think so, but I see no reason you couldn't just make one.

[ZamielVanWeber]

just the normal way will work: make wish your arcane thesis and layer a couple +0 metamagic feats on it to get it back down to a 9 max.

Methods include but are not limited to:
Arcane Thesis (Wish) along with 3 +0s;
Arcane Thesis (Wish), Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell), and a 2 +0s;
Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper's capstones that lower metamagic cost plus Arcane Thesis (Wish) along with either 2 +0s or Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell) and a +0;
Using Incantatrix's or Anima Mage's class feature that simply negates the cost of metamagic.

[Elkad]

Blowing 5 feats (well, 4 if you assume you wanted Chain anyway) seems kinda expensive for something you won't be doing all the time (simply for the XP cost if nothing else)

Greater Rod of Chain seems the best idea for a part-time kinda thing I guess.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Blowing 5 feats (well, 4 if you assume you wanted Chain anyway) seems kinda expensive for something you won't be doing all the time (simply for the XP cost if nothing else)

Greater Rod of Chain seems the best idea for a part-time kinda thing I guess.

The advantage though is that you can chain anything that Wish copies (assuming it can be chained) and if you uses Incantatrix + Easy Metamagic you end up in a good spot for this trick as well as other metamagic goodness. Also important to note that metamagic rods outside of what already exists are pure homebrew (I am not sure that even the custom item rules cover it) and thus is subject entirely to the DMS whims.
Edit: thank you by the way: you may have just solved a problem I was having it a character.

[Elkad]

Especially in a large party it seems mighty handy.

You generally wouldn't waste Wishes giving the Wizard a higher strength, but if you are casting it anyway, might as well put it on all 8 party members, plus all the cohorts/companions/familiars/girlfriends/etc.

Heck, your kids might kick off their adventuring careers with +5 Inherent to everything.


Ooh, there's a campaign. Blind Alternate Dimension colonization, but you can't take anything (not even extra-dimensional spaces). L1 characters. But your rich patrons try to give you every advantage possible anyway, and running your stats up with Wishes, piling templates on you, casting the longest duration buffs they can manage to get you through the first few days, and anything similar is fair game.

So basic desert island kinda thing, but you get a kickstart by virtue of being better than anyone else, instead of picking up goodies off the beach.

[Nifft]

I see some people seem to think that stacking some +0 metamagics can reduce the level cost of a different metamagic -- I've never met a real DM who would allow that, so I wonder if they're speaking from very different real-game experience, or if that's theoretical optimization creeping in.


Blowing 5 feats (well, 4 if you assume you wanted Chain anyway) seems kinda expensive for something you won't be doing all the time (simply for the XP cost if nothing else)

Greater Rod of Chain seems the best idea for a part-time kinda thing I guess.

Chain is pretty great for other purposes, so it's not necessarily a waste... but personally, I'd go for the Rod.

[Venger]

I see some people seem to think that stacking some +0 metamagics can reduce the level cost of a different metamagic -- I've never met a real DM who would allow that, so I wonder if they're speaking from very different real-game experience, or if that's theoretical optimization creeping in.



Chain is pretty great for other purposes, so it's not necessarily a waste... but personally, I'd go for the Rod.

It's simple math. Arcane thesis lowers the spell level for a spell for every metamagic feat you apply. if you use a +0, then that adjusts the spell's level by -1 for every one you apply. nerf it in your own games if you want, but the rules are perfectly clear.

[Nifft]

It's simple math. Arcane thesis lowers the spell level for a spell for every metamagic feat you apply. if you use a +0, then that adjusts the spell's level by -1 for every one you apply. nerf it in your own games if you want, but the rules are perfectly clear.

They sure are:



A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.


Let's say the original level of the base spell is three: fireball.

I apply Quicken Spell, which is usually +4, and 3+4-1 (min 3) = 6.

I get a quickened fireball in a level 6 slot.


Now I apply Energy Substitution to quickened fireball.

The original level was six, plus zero, minus one, minimum six (the original level before applying the +0 metamagic), and 6+0-1 (min 6) = 6.

I get a quickened acid fireball in a level 6 slot.


That's pretty simple math, indeed. You just have to remember to apply all the rules.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's pretty simple math, indeed. You just have to remember to apply all the rules.

Yes, you do. Including the rules where the controller of an effect makes decisions for it, not you. Fireball is 3rd level. An AT boosted invisible fireball is 3rd level since 3-1= 2 but we cannot drop below 3.

But let us do an invisible quickened AT boosted fireball, shall we? So I apply quickened (+3) and invisible (-1). The combination of the two gives (+2). Now because we have Arcane Thesis we must make sure it does not try to dip below 3rd level. 3+2=5>3. That checks so we are good to go. Original level means original level, not level that I randomly decide it to be because I want to.

[Venger]

They sure are:

Let's say the original level of the base spell is three: fireball.

I apply Quicken Spell, which is usually +4.

I get a quickened fireball in a level 5 slot.

Now I apply Energy Substitution to quickened fireball.

The original level was five, plus zero, minus two, minimum five (the original level before applying the +0 metamagic).

I get a quickened acid fireball in a level 5 slot.

That's pretty simple math, indeed. You just have to remember to apply all the rules.

fireball 3
quicken (4-1) 3
energy sub (0-1) -1

5

what are you talking about 5 being the original level? fireball is a 3, 3 is the original level. you can bring it down 2 more if you have 2 more +0 metamagics


Yes, you do. Including the rules where the controller of an effect makes decisions for it, not you. Fireball is 3rd level. An AT boosted invisible fireball is 3rd level since 3-1= 2 but we cannot drop below 3.

But let us do an invisible quickened AT boosted fireball, shall we? So I apply quickened (+3) and invisible (-1). The combination of the two gives (+2). Now because we have Arcane Thesis we must make sure it does not try to dip below 3rd level. 3+2=5>3. That checks so we are good to go. Original level means original level, not level that I randomly decide it to be because I want to.
Yes, this is correct.

[Nifft]

fireball 3
quicken (4-1) 3
energy sub (0-1) -1 Incorrect, you apply the full text of the feat every time you apply the feat.

When you apply a new metamagic, you cannot reduce the total spell level below what it was before application of that metamagic.


what are you talking about 5 being the original level? Mistake on my part, should be six (not five).

Three is the original level when Quicken is applied.

Six is the original level when Energy Sub is applied.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Incorrect, you apply the full text of the feat every time you apply the feat.

When you apply a new metamagic, you cannot reduce the total spell level below what it was before application of that metamagic.

Do you have any citation for this? And even if it is true, I apply quicken at +3 (3+3=6>3) and any +0 at -1 (6-1=5>3) it still works. To get it to work the way you say it does you either need A: the rules to not see either calculation at all or B: the definition of the word original to change.

[Elkad]

Stacking 3 +0 Metamagics on Wish looks impossible. There aren't enough that apply.

Invisible Spell and Sanctum spell appear to be the only choices, unless I've missed something.

If you had a -2 reduction, you could stack a bunch of +1 stuff on I guess.

[Venger]

Stacking 3 +0 Metamagics on Wish looks impossible. There aren't enough that apply.

Invisible Spell and Sanctum spell appear to be the only choices, unless I've missed something.

If you had a -2 reduction, you could stack a bunch of +1 stuff on I guess.

there's plenty more +0s. black lore of moil is one, sufficient to get to 3 and take wish back down to 9. enjoy.

[Elkad]

there's plenty more +0s. black lore of moil is one, sufficient to get to 3 and take wish back down to 9. enjoy.

Sticking a Metamagic that specifically changes Necromancy spells on a Universal spell seems likely to result in aerial DMG assaults.
Edit: Plus it takes yet another feat, Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prereq.

[ATHATH]

I seem to recall Anima Mage having a class feature that negated the cost for a single metamagic. Does it, and if so, would Anima Mage serve your purposes?

[ZamielVanWeber]

For generic use Invisible, Sanctum, and City are best. Part of why I highly recommend Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell). It in turn is a metamagic feat so you can grab it if you get a bonus one.

[Elkad]

For generic use Invisible, Sanctum, and City are best. Part of why I highly recommend Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell). It in turn is a metamagic feat so you can grab it if you get a bonus one.

City has the same problem. It's only for spells that are both damaging and with one of the 5 basic Energy types. Which limits it's usefulness a lot if you aren't blasting.

[ZamielVanWeber]

City has the same problem. It's only for spells that are both damaging and with one of the 5 basic Energy types. Which limits it's usefulness a lot if you aren't blasting.

Ah. I misremembered sorry. Incantatrix 10 plus Easy Metamagic would be best then.

[SirNibbles]

If the range is Touch, Archmage's Arcane Reach ability will change it to a 60 foot ray. You can then use a Lens of Ray Widening (Lords of Madness, page 46) to turn that into a 60 foot cone. You can combine that with a Lens of Ray Extending to make it a 120 foot cone. If you build a sort of jungle-gym pyramid/cone frame, you could fill that entire volume (452,000 cubic ft) with targets.

You don't even need any Metamagic reducers. If it isn't a Touch range spell, use Ocular Spell to turn it into a ray (and then use tricks to reduce the Metamagic by 2) and just do what's above.

If we assume an average human occupies 5 cubic feet of space (at low efficiency), you could fit 90,400 people into your 120 foot-tall jungle gym of Wish.

The cost of using a Lens of Ray Widening and a Lens of Ray Extending is 3834 gold per casting. If you charge each of the 90,400 people 50,000 gold for a 5x Wish (what a deal for them!), you're 4,519,980,830 gold in the black (4 billion 519 million 980 thousand 830 gold). That definitely covers the cost of building your jungle-gym.

[Mordaedil]

What games are you people playing where the DM is going to be okay with this?

[Elkad]

What games are you people playing where the DM is going to be okay with this?

That's the whole point of my post. I'm trying to find the least-cheesy way to do it.
Using your "free metamagic X times a day" ability seems best, but due to the silly 3.x rule change, you want to be able to stack 5 of them in a row - at least for personal use.

[Mordaedil]

That's the whole point of my post. I'm trying to find the least-cheesy way to do it.
Using your "free metamagic X times a day" ability seems best, but due to the silly 3.x rule change, you want to be able to stack 5 of them in a row - at least for personal use.

I get ya now. Negative modifiers to metamagic just seems like an odd loophole I think most mentions of the "reduce costs" measures have specific mentions against that I am aware of, so I'd think any DM would look at it and write it off as a oversight.

Can chain target multiple parts of your body?

[Kayblis]

For the OP, Metamagic Rod of Chaining is a +3 equivalent. The item appears in MIC, p.165, the Greater variety costing 121,500gp to buy. Chain up to 3 wishes in the same day, or buy 2 and cast your 5 wishes for each stat each day of the week and rest on the 7th like a normal god.

To the ongoing discussion, Arcane Thesis is special in the way it goes about reducing metamagic costs. It reduces the effective level of the spell by 1 per metamagic applied, with no restriction of "up to +1" or "doesn't affect +0 effects". The only restriction is that the spell cannot be cast at a lower level than its original one, which means it takes into consideration +0 mods. It's a very well-known trick to use Arcane Thesis with a bunch of +0 metamagic to cast your favorite spell quickened and/or twinned for free. You're technically investing a lot of feats into a single spell after all, since most +0 modifiers are marginally useful at best.