Favorite OOTS Character Final: ALL EVIL! #5 BELKAR v #2 REDCLOAK

[alwaysbebatman]

VOTING IS CLOSED

The first seed was knocked out. Who is our favorite character? One thing is sure: the winner will be south of Neutral.

#5 BELKAR BITTERLEAF

VS.

#2 REDCLOAK

[Euclidodese]

"Ladies, gentlemen and everything betwixt and between. The following popularity contest is scheduled for one fall and is for the GITP Heavyweight Championship of the world!
Your referee for this bout is Alwaysbebatman and there is a seven day time-limit.

Introducing first: In the blood-red corner, the veteran of 55 tough years and 17 hard-earned levels. His class ain't mundane, his evil's untamed, and when he looks in the mirror his heart fills with shame.

With more spell slots than a dictionary and more dark plots than a library, heaven doesn't want him, and hell's afraid he'll take over.

He is: The man with the green skin, the black heart and the white-hot fury. The Goblin known as: Redcloak!

And in the cool-blue corner, weighing in tonight at 31 pounds and standing 3 foot and two inches tall, he is: The blackheart, the diamond-cutter, the living legend and the good old-fashioned handsome man:

He floats like a whale corpse, stings like a tax bill, and he's never met a kobold he didn't want to kill.

He'll push your buttons, he'll flick your switch, he'll seduce you with a smile and then leave you with an itch.

He's got the gift of the gab, and the gift of the stab, and he'll pair every punch-line with the flex of an ab.

He is: The laughter-crafter who gives birth to mirth. The undefeated, the undisputed, the unparalleled banter-weight champion of the woooooooooooorld:

'Mr Netflix and Thrill' Belkar "If you ain't DTF yo, you can GTFO" Bitterleaf!"


In short: I vote for Belkar

[Potatomade]

Um... yeah, what he said.

BELKAR

[Peelee]

Well, this one is easy. I vote for O-Chul.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, this one is easy. I vote for O-Chul.

We must not stop voting now, or it will all have been for nothing.

Redcloak

[Liquor Box]

A short but sweet plug for Belkar (credit to Elros - post 53 of Belkar vs Shojo thread):

" Belkar. First of all, he supplies most of the one liners in the comic (e.g. first panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html)). And he headlines an entry on TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicComedicSociopath), and receives mention (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SociopathicHero) in several (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDevelopment) others (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero).
The Giant gets a lot of mileage out of this guy..."

I do quite like Redcloak though, and I am partial to a good villian, so I may yet be swayed. I will wait until later to cast my vote.

[goodpeople25]

I vote for Roy, Elan, Daigo, Crystal, Lien, The Oracle, Argent and last but not least Kazumi.

[drazen]

Had Vaarsuvius won, I'd have had a real and difficult decision to make.

But Belkar was a lame, one-note character for the first half of the comic, and showed no real growth for nearly 900 strips. If not for his getting a secondary spotlight in the current book, he wouldn't be winning squat.

So I am left with no choice but to vote for the Green Goblin himself, Mr. Redcloak.

[Bobb]

Well, this one is easy. I vote for O-Chul.

I also will vote O-Chul

[Chobarth]

Pfft. I don't even understand how RedCloak ended up at number 2.

Belkar. Death's L'il Overachiever. #5 indeed...

[Kish]

Villains are necessary. "Heroic Sociopaths" stopped being interesting or appealing a long, long time ago. Redcloak.

[martianmister]

Redcloak, still.

[The Curt Jester]

Redcloak.

It takes a lot of work to make an interesting antagonist. In general, I find most of the ones I come across in books and movies (especially movies) to be boring. Redcloak isn't.

[Fincher]

HA HA HA HA HA HA! It's working! IT'S WORKING, SUCKERS!!

[Fincher]

By the way, I vote for Belkar.

[Ruck]

I really enjoy Belkar and was probably one of the loudest voices in the room for him up until this point.

But one of the crucial ingredients that really makes OOTS a story a cut above is the element of tragedy. Redcloak is the series' most tragic figure, shaped by experiences into a completely understandable course of action, that has nevertheless cost him everything in life worth having except that course of action. It works in the fashion of the best tragedies, creating a character whose decisions we can empathize with yet feel both pity and terror for where they have led him. Belkar is a fun character, but Redcloak is arguably the character who most elevates the story to new heights.

[NamonakiRei]

I'll write something interesting later. For now, I'm nabbing the 8th vote for Redcloak! My favorite number for my favorite character.

[Laurana]

I vote for Belkar Bitterleaf.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, the Belkster really pulled it off! I'm so happy he got to stand victorious over V in the end, I wonder what he did to celebrate? Probably some sort of joke message with hir corpse about the elf having "explosive runs"

Hmm, despite both being small and evil, these two are about as opposite as you can get.
Law vs. Chaos.
A wise bookworm vs. someone who dump statted Int and Wis so he could stab harder.
Melee is the only thing I know vs. the most melee-averse caster in possibly the entire comic (certainly compared to all the other divine casters at least).
A guy who's had good reasons to do bad things all along but has grown into the role of full-fledged villain vs. a guy who's never had sympathetic reasons for anything but is now developing a redemption arc.
One of the main characters w/ the most unflinchingly serious demeanor vs. the main character most dedicated to comedy relief.

Not sure who I want to vote for yet, but I'll be happy w/ either of them as the winner.

[lothos]

I also will vote O-Chul
Yeah, I want to vote O-Chul too...... But futile gestures after the game is over are just that... futile.

I guess when choosing between these two O-Chul wannabes I have to go for Redcloak.

So I reluctantly vote Redcloak.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I want to vote O-Chul too...... But futile gestures after the game is over are just that... futile.

I guess when choosing between these two O-Chul wannabes I have to go for Redcloak.

So I reluctantly vote Redcloak.

Look, if there's an election and I don't like either of the candidates, I write in my vote, and I stand by that.

[Bob_McSurly]

Villains are necessary. "Heroic Sociopaths" stopped being interesting or appealing a long, long time ago. Redcloak.
I, on the other hand, think that Heroic Sociopaths are super interesting, (not to mention hilarious), so my vote goes to Belkar.
Sorry, Redcloak, I just can't forgive you for summoning chemically accurate elementals. The Tarquin in me thinks it goes against genre conventions, the MITD in me thinks it's confusing, the Elan in me thinks it was mean, and the Belkar in me thinks it makes them harder to stab.

[alwaysbebatman]

.... and when he looks in the mirror his heart fills with shame.

It's funny cos it's true.

[lothos]

Look, if there's an election and I don't like either of the candidates, I write in my vote, and I stand by that.

Fair enough.

I like Belkar a lot. He is definitely in my top 10 characters. I like Roadcloak more (probably in my top 5). So redclock gets my vote here.

Neither compare to O-Chul for me though, who is easily my favourite character in the comic.

More generally I don't think there's any character Rich has included in the comic that I really hate. So I think I'll always be able to take a position on any run off for 2nd place behind O-Chul :-)

[Riftwolf]

Evil vs Evil? Yawn.
We could've had Conflicted Neutral/False-repentant CE vs LG Paragon, but nooo...
I vote for Belkar as the lesser of two evils.

[Potatomade]

At least this beats Redcloak v. V. That would have been the dullest thing. Redcloak's a bit overrated (to me, anyway), and the multi-thread V's alignment discussion basically killed my interest in this contest :smallfrown:

[Hamste]

I vote Belkar.

[Synesthesy]

I'm happy because they are my favourite characters :) but I don't know if I'll be able to choose only one of them.....

[Rack]

Comedy vs Drama eh? I'm still here for the comedy.

Belkar

[Goblin_Priest]

I love them both, though. Redcloak, V, Belkar, O'Chul, Elan, Tarquin, Malack, those are all top tier characters. Mid tiers being more the likes of Haley, Xykon, MitD, and low tier being Roy.

Though Redcloak is kinda super top tier. :smalltongue: (I already voted)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Redcloak?

Man, I was really hoping at least one of my top 10 would make it.

[Dr.Zero]

Redcloak is a good (meaning: with some depth) villain, a backstory and all. Very important in the comic.
Belkar is the sociopath, without him most of the humor of the beginning would be lost.
But, even if it seems absurd at first sight, he is also The Spock (yes, even more than "the vulcan in fantasy" elf), the stranger: he is the one who gives a different perspective to what the order does and how it can be done (or not should be done).
In short, he is a source of internal debate and conflict.
Quoting Tarquin (going by memory, so forgive me if the quote is not literal): "He is the foil. Things tend to get dull incredibly fast without some internal conflicts."
(This even ignoring all the meta [sub]text regarding dysfunctional parties)

In spite of Reddie's importance, I can still think of a comic without him, substituted by a mindless, witless drone. I cannot do the same for a comic without Belkar. Well, I can, and the result is a comic where 90% of the comedy is given by Elan's humor (which is funny, once in a while, mind you, but gets old very quickly).

But what about now? Reddie has increased his importance even more, showing his "no-joke" side and cold efficiency and planning abilities, this mostly since the apparition of Tsukiko (and, again, some good internal conflict which was needed to make him shine and show to us what he was hiding).
But in the meantime Belkar began his growing/redemption arc, which I find not only the most interesting, but even the most well executed (with V's one as the only competitor, by a distance).

So, in short: two good characters, but I find Belkar the most important for the balance of the comic.

[Arkku]

Go team red! I vote Redcloak.

[2D8HP]

Look, if there's an election and I don't like either of the candidates, I write in my vote, and I stand by that.

Write ins are allowed? In that case GREYVIEW NEEDS TREATS!

But if otherwise:
....More generally I don't think there's any character Rich has included in the comic that I really hate....


I still hate that bony bastard Xykon!


I'm kind of surprised how few in the Stickverse I really dislike.

The only one I really want to see get comeuppance is that boney bastard Xykon.

:xykon:


Except that it would bring the story closer to it's end (rue the day, please write forever Mr. Burlew!), I really want to see Redcloak put Xykon to an end.

I want Roy to win (except that it would mean the end of the strip).

Belkar? I want him to be able to look a restored Durkon in the eye and thank him.

If I was only going by the last four years of story my choice would be easy: Belkar, but..... over a decade ago Start of Darkness and On the Origin of PCs were published, and of the two SoD seems richer, so I will continue to honor print and NOD FOR REDCLOAK.

[Peelee]

Fair enough.

I like Belkar a lot. He is definitely in my top 10 characters. I like Roadcloak more (probably in my top 5). So redclock gets my vote here.

Neither compare to O-Chul for me though, who is easily my favourite character in the comic.

More generally I don't think there's any character Rich has included in the comic that I really hate. So I think I'll always be able to take a position on any run off for 2nd place behind O-Chul :-)
Perfectly understandable. Though it woulda been cool to see just how many votes Mr. Stiffley could get.

Write ins are allowed? In that case GREYVIEW NEEDS TREATS!

Hooray! I started a thing!

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar, by a long shot. (I was disappointed that Belkar got more votes than Roy, to be honest).

That the forum voters ultimately chose Redcloak over O'Chul is a greater disappointment.

If Belkar wins, Mr Scruffy gets more mackerel.

[aurilee]

Belkar.

Because how can you possibly get any better than a sociopathic hobbit?

[Ornithologist]

I would have voted for O'Chul... but between the 2:

Belkar...

I'm more excited by what happens to him than Redcloak. Don't mistake, Redcloak's remaining story will be great, though I feel a bit more predictable.

Seriously, though, O'Chul would have won :smallsigh:

[littlebum2002]

Belkar for the upset

[white lancer]

Had Vaarsuvius won, I'd have had a real and difficult decision to make.

But Belkar was a lame, one-note character for the first half of the comic, and showed no real growth for nearly 900 strips. If not for his getting a secondary spotlight in the current book, he wouldn't be winning squat.

So I am left with no choice but to vote for the Green Goblin himself, Mr. *Redcloak*. (posting on mobile, cannot find bold button).

Exactly my thoughts. Belkar I think is getting a boost because of his recent focus in the comic, and deservedly so, but he has always been way more popular than he deserved in my view. While I get some of his popularity now, as his development in recent strips has been great, I find him hugely overrated when considering the first 3/4ths of the comic. Even simply going for humor, I wouldn't pick Belkar over a number of other characters in the strip, and his development as a character has lagged hugely behind all of the members of the Order aside from maybe Durkon...as well as behind certain other members of the comic, such as his opponent here.

Belkar's certainly funnier than Redcloak is, but Redcloak is way more important to the comic and a much more interesting character IMO. The goblin is one of the main elements of the story that really hooked me on the comic as a whole, while Belkar has for the most part simply been an amusing diversion. I could easily do without Belkar in the comic as there have always been many sources of humor, but I don't think I could do without Redcloak.

[Potatomade]

See, Redcloak's cool and all, but he's been pretty static for the last 300 or so strips. And as good of a villain as he is, and as well written as he is, there are other examples of villains very similar to him (mid-series Londo Mollari from Babylon 5 springs to mind). He's just a very well done example of a familiar character type. Belkar, on the other hand, is something newer: he's a capital E Evil psychopath that's slowly learning how to be a person, all on his own, softly. That's something I at least haven't seen before (though obviously I haven't seen/read everything).

Besides, from a humor/partymember perspective, Redcloak's just the Roy of Team Evil. It's a good thing to have for both teams, but it's not unique. Roy totally would do the whole Titanium and Chlorine elemental thing if he were in Redcloak's shoes, for example. And Redcloak in Roy's shoes would be frustrated at Belkar and think Elan was an idiot (see how he treats MitD, Team Evil's equivalent). There is no Belkar analogue on Team Evil (though Xykon comes closest). He's fresher.

[Amazon]

He's evil, he's funny and he's tragic.

Redcloak has my vote.

Why do evil characters are so loved? It says a lot about us, same with Disney.

[Gift Jeraff]

Belkar for his hilarious death scene.

[Chei]

I vote for the one that shook off magic compulsion from a god's artifact to save his baby brother... and killed that same brother out of indoctrination thirty years later.

Redcloak

[The Aboleth]

Redcloak is my vote.

Belkar is becoming a more complex character, but Redcloak has been a deeper character for much longer in the comic.

[blademan9999]

I like Belkar, I'll pick him.
He's pretty fun.

[alwaysbebatman]

Belkar for his hilarious death scene.

Are you...

Are you from the future?

[Rogan]

Okay, here we are:
O-Chul -> 2 votes.
Belkar -> 1 vote
Redcloak -> nothing!

[Ornithologist]

Just in case anyone didn't notice, there is an open voting thread for 3rd place (Namely O' Chul vs V)


my rough (super unoffical!) count looks to be 17-15 Belkar so far. Plus 2 Votes for O'chul

[Joerg]

So since V lost, this is easy.

In short, either the "evil, but for a good cause" character with the sunk cost problem. Nerdy, quite intelligent, dedicated, fanatical, powerful. Or the "evil, wants to pretend he's not, is slowly and reluctantly changing" character. Brutal, abusive, shallow, misogynistic. (Both characters are not very funny for me, even though Belkar tries to be, while Redcloak doesn't.)

Redcloak. No contest.

[Rasputin]

See, Redcloak's ... just a very well done example of a familiar character type. Belkar, on the other hand, is something newer: he's a capital E Evil psychopath that's slowly learning how to be a person, all on his own, softly. That's something I at least haven't seen before (though obviously I haven't seen/read everything).

Besides, from a humor/partymember perspective, Redcloak's just the Roy of Team Evil. It's a good thing to have for both teams, but it's not unique. Roy totally would do the whole Titanium and Chlorine elemental thing if he were in Redcloak's shoes, for example. And Redcloak in Roy's shoes would be frustrated at Belkar and think Elan was an idiot (see how he treats MitD, Team Evil's equivalent). There is no Belkar analogue on Team Evil (though Xykon comes closest). He's fresher.

Pretty much agree with all of this, and that's before I count in humor and y'know, murder, which is always a perk.

BELKAR

[LadyEowyn]

Voting for Redcloak, no question.

[Thedoctorking]

Gotta be Belkar. I couldn't imagine this comic without him. Redcloak is nice but he's not a central character and we don't really know much about him. Much more of a stick figure, if you'll forgive me for pointing it out...

[Euclidodese]

Gotta be Belkar. I couldn't imagine this comic without him. Redcloak is nice but he's not a central character and we don't really know much about him. Much more of a stick figure, if you'll forgive me for pointing it out...Even though you voted the same way as me, I must ask: Have you read Start of Darkness?

Because if you haven't you should... It's really, really awesome, and it's Redcloak's backstory more or less :smallsmile:
So if you're thinking he's a stick figure, it might change your mind... And more importantly: It's awesome.

[hroþila]

I vote for Redcloak.

Are you...

Are you from the future?
Belkar has had three death scenes so far, if I'm not mistaken. Granted, two of them happened in SSaDT, but still.

[Peelee]

Gotta be Belkar. I couldn't imagine this comic without him. Redcloak is nice but he's not a central character and we don't really know much about him. Much more of a stick figure, if you'll forgive me for pointing it out...


Even though you voted the same way as me, I must ask: Have you read Start of Darkness?
More to the point, have you read the webcomic?

[Legato Endless]

Alright Redcloak. The last two evil Clerics to tangle with Belkar kicked his ass. So this should be a done deal. Right?

Looks at army of murderous fans

Uh...right?

[Ruck]

More generally I don't think there's any character Rich has included in the comic that I really hate.
Ooh, not me. I think "Most Hated Character" could be a pretty interesting poll itself. I think Kubota and Nale top my list.

[Nathan5]

REDCLOAK
Don't get me wrong I love belkar. He has brought so much levity and interesting dynamics to the strip, but when you try to dig deeper there is nothing. I am really happy redcloak is in the finals because he has been my favorite, with V as a second. There are so many emotional or deep moments with redcloak. He has an entire boom that is essential all about him, and it is very tragic. Ultimately what wins me over is strip number 830, my second favorite strip in the comic, and the moment when he looks in the mirror in 701. Redcloak all the way!!!!!

[h0m3st4r]

He may have started out as a one-dimensional murderous psychopath, but even as he thinks he's pretending to grow as a character, he's becoming more and more the part than he realizes. Besides, the whole heel-face turn thing strikes a personal cord with me. While his competition may be a complex villain with an ulterior motive to elevate his race, at the end of the day, there's a fair number of goblins who could play that role.

My vote goes to Belkar.

[Mandor]

Redcloak. Belkar is funny and all, but I find Redcloak a vastly more interesting and compelling character than just Stabbytown.

[Svata]

Redcloak. Belkar's cool, but Redcloak is Redcloak.



Look, if there's an election and I don't like either of the candidates, I write in my vote, and I stand by that.

And that's how you throw away an election to the candidate you find worse.

[alwaysbebatman]

Redcloak. Belkar's cool, but Redcloak is Redcloak.




And that's how you throw away an election to the candidate you find worse.

NO!!!!

I mean: no real politics, please. Thank you kindly.

[Bluepaw]

Oh, most certainly :redcloak::redcloak::redcloak:Redcloak:redcloak::r edcloak::redcloak:. Don't get me wrong, I adore the Belkster, even got him in my forum sig, but Redcloak is easily the most compelling character that the Giant's created, from his tragic origins to the master manipulation of Xykon to the wry humor (not particularly less satisfying than Belkar's), this one's got it all. I'm more looking forward to see his arc unfold into the final act than anyone else's.

Plus, wasn't one of his scenes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) voted the best strip of the comic a couple years back?

[Peelee]

And that's how you throw away an election to the candidate you find worse.

I choose to believe you are not referring to any real-world specific events.

In any election, any vote cast for any person who didn't win is a wasted vote, and any votes for the winner more than the absolute minimum number required for victory is wasted vote. As such, I'll vote in any sort of election (such as this very one, for example) however the hell I like. If i actively do not want either candidate to win (such as these very ones, for example), then I'll write in who I do want to win. Because my vote is wasted regardless, and if I have a choice to say who to want to win, then I will, dammit. Not who I think is the less bad of the two (such as this very tourney round, for example).

If You ARE referring to real-world specific events, feel free to PM me. I'll give you my email address, and we can discuss that safely off-forum.

[Chei]

I choose to believe you are not referring to any real-world specific events.

In any election, any vote cast for any person who didn't win is a wasted vote, and any votes for the winner more than the absolute minimum number required for victory is wasted vote. As such, I'll vote in any sort of election (such as this very one, for example) however the hell I like. If i actively do not want either candidate to win (such as these very ones, for example), then I'll write in who I do want to win. Because my vote is wasted regardless, and if I have a choice to say who to want to win, then I will, dammit. Not who I think is the less bad of the two (such as this very tourney round, for example).

If You ARE referring to real-world specific events, feel free to PM me. I'll give you my email address, and we can discuss that safely off-forum.

It's funny because this exact attitude is no more or less admirable than not voting at all, and yet it's the one that gets the most flak for it.

[Jasdoif]

In any election, any vote cast for any person who didn't win is a wasted vote, and any votes for the winner more than the absolute minimum number required for victory is wasted vote. As such, I'll vote in any sort of election (such as this very one, for example) however the hell I like. If i actively do not want either candidate to win (such as these very ones, for example), then I'll write in who I do want to win. Because my vote is wasted regardless, and if I have a choice to say who to want to win, then I will, dammit. Not who I think is the less bad of the two (such as this very tourney round, for example).Indeed. Choosing the more tolerable option from those given is naturally par for the course, but requires at least one option that isn't intolerable. It's entirely possible that putting a data point towards "hey, not into this 'occasionally funny reprobate murderers' array you have going" is easier to stomach than putting your choice (and a feasible victory) behind an occasionally funny halfling reprobate murderer or an occasionally funny goblin reprobate murderer; while still making your dissatisfaction measurable in the results. That's why it's called a protest vote: it's protesting the vote itself, and/or the circumstances that led to the vote or the choices within.

Admittedly, it does lose most of its flair in the context of a fictional tournament.

[Peelee]

Indeed. Choosing the more tolerable option from those given is naturally par for the course, but requires at least one option that isn't intolerable. It's entirely possible that putting a data point towards "hey, not into this 'occasionally funny reprobate murderers' array you have going" is easier to stomach than putting your choice (and a feasible victory) behind an occasionally funny halfling reprobate murderer or an occasionally funny goblin reprobate murderer; while still making your dissatisfaction measurable in the results. That's why it's called a protest vote: it's protesting the vote itself, and/or the circumstances that led to the vote or the choices within.

Admittedly, it does lose most of its flair in the context of a fictional tournament.

Which is why I like to add ridiculously overdramatic flair. :smalltongue:
[Grabs pitchfork] Vive la révolution!

[Liquor Box]

It's funny because this exact attitude is no more or less admirable than not voting at all, and yet it's the one that gets the most flak for it.

Not really. Voting for a candidate that has no prospect has no effect on the result of the election, but it does signal an endorsement. Someone who came third in an election by getting 10% of the votes rather than 1% may be more inclined to stand again, future candidates may examine his/her policies to see which ones captured that 10% (potentially leading to policies you like being adopted), and it may give some mandate to the losing candidate to advocate for his views outside of the formal seat of power.

I have no problem with someone voting for a candidate who has no chance (although I don't mind people not voting either - if you don't have a preference or don't know the candidates/issues, then why skew things for those that do).

This context is slightly different though - O-Chul is not a candidate who will clearly be beaten, he's not in the race at all anymore.

[B. Dandelion]

Semi-relevant: https://i.imgur.com/jU4aEf7.png

I vote for Redcloak. For me personally, he really is the best character in the series, at least the single most interesting and compelling one.

[Chei]

Not really. Voting for a candidate that has no prospect has no effect on the result of the election, but it does signal an endorsement. Someone who came third in an election by getting 10% of the votes rather than 1% may be more inclined to stand again, future candidates may examine his/her policies to see which ones captured that 10% (potentially leading to policies you like being adopted), and it may give some mandate to the losing candidate to advocate for his views outside of the formal seat of power.

I have no problem with someone voting for a candidate who has no chance (although I don't mind people not voting either - if you don't have a preference or don't know the candidates/issues, then why skew things for those that do).

This context is slightly different though - O-Chul is not a candidate who will clearly be beaten, he's not in the race at all anymore.

Yeah I suppose I'd change what I said to "I personally don't care if people don't vote or vote for a hopeless candidate, but I have observed that people who vote for the hopeless candidate seem more maligned."

[Jasdoif]

Which is why I like to add ridiculously overdramatic flair. :smalltongue:Oh. I thought you just liked added ridiculously overdramatic flair in general :smalltongue:

[137beth]

The one I wanted most barely missed out on the finals, so I'll go with Redcloak.

[Potatomade]

Finally read Start of Darkness.

Vote stays on Belkar. Though I'm kicking myself for not reading it earlier and putting Right-Eye as tied with O-Chul for top slot on that "list top 10 favorite characters" thing. Heck, even Xykon would bump up a bit on that list. Holy cow.

And I think now I'm even less sure why people like Redcloak so much. The guy's far from the most interesting character in the story people point to as his best stuff. Heck, even Dorukan was more interesting, and he was in like 4 pages!

[alwaysbebatman]

Funny, I've voted against Redcloak lot, definitely not his biggest supporter here-- but I agree with those who've argued that his back story is amazing, but he's been awfully static lately. But him not being one of the best parts of Start of Darkness? I can't see where you're coming from, there....

[lothos]

More generally I don't think there's any character Rich has included in the comic that I really hate. So I think I'll always be able to take a position on any run off for 2nd place behind O-Chul :-)

I still hate that bony bastard Xykon!


Perhaps I should clarify my meaning. I think Xykon and several other characters represent terrible people (or things) that are wholly evil and if I existed in the same world as them, I would hate them with fury. But I don't hate them as a work of fiction... I mean, I don't think they are poorly developed characters that are not suitable for their role in the story.

What I'm trying to say is that the characters that Rich has created for OOTS are all enjoyable on one level or another. I mean that I've never looked at any character and thought "Wow, that's poor characterization on Rich's part.."

So I think I'd hate Xykon... and Samantha of the Bandits and even Redcloak if I were in the story. I can't say I'd enjoy Eugene Greenhilt or Miko's company much... But I don't hate any of them as characters.

[Potatomade]

Funny, I've voted against Redcloak lot, definitely not his biggest supporter here-- but I agree with those who've argued that his back story is amazing, but he's been awfully static lately. But him not being one of the best parts of Start of Darkness? I can't see where you're coming from, there....

It felt like a story where the main character (or one of) is getting upstaged by far more compelling supporting characters, even if he himself is doing pretty well. Redcloak's attitude is less interesting to me than Right-Eye's. Same for the other characters. It just so happens that to me, Redcloak is the least part of Redcloak's own backstory (not counting MitD or the demon roaches, obviously).

Not that Redcloak was bad or anything. It's just exactly what I expected. Maybe that's why it didn't do it for me.

Though I WILL say that it has now and forever killed any sympathy I might have ever had for him. The tragedy wasn't Redcloak's, it was Right-Eye's.

[alwaysbebatman]

Hmm. Well, I'll admit that a lot if SoD is about revealing backstory to those fans who didn't want to wait for it to come up piecemeal through the main story. Now that most (all?) of those secrets are out, it may be less effective as a story.

But I definitely didn't feel like Redcloak was upstaged. SoD is the tragedy of Redcloak and Xykon, and that's exactly what it felt like to me, anyhow...




Though I WILL say that it has now and forever killed any sympathy I might have ever had for him. The tragedy wasn't Redcloak's, it was Right-Eye's.

Noooooo, that's not what "tragedy" means, not literary tragedy, anyhow. Something terrible happens to you because you were betrayed by someone you trusted because of their character flaws, that not your tragedy...

[Potatomade]

Fair enough. Both are plenty valid viewpoints. I'm just the kinda guy who likes Samwise Gamgee more than Aragorn. And I hated Gollum.

(Also, I meant more in the "I feel bad for this character because something bad happened to them" sense, not the "strict literary definition" sense)

[Dushara]

I like Smeagol though. :)

Start of Darkness is one of my favorite books, so as awesome as Belkar is, I'm going to have to vote for Redcloak.

[alwaysbebatman]

(Also, I meant more in the "I feel bad for this character because something bad happened to them" sense, not the "strict literary definition" sense)

Ah! Tragedy as in "unfortunate event" not as in "Macbeth" or such. I get you.

It seems to me as though your qualification for a character you don't enjoy is that they aren't likable, whereas I think that the antagonists usually should be pretty unlikable.

But I'm likely misunderstanding you; can you think of any antagonists you really think of as a terrible person (as intended,) but that you also really enjoy as an antagonist?

[Potatomade]

It seems to me as though your qualification for a character you don't enjoy is that they aren't likable, whereas I think that the antagonists usually should be pretty unlikable.

But I'm likely misunderstanding you; can you think of any antagonists you really think of as a terrible person (as intended,) but that you also really enjoy as an antagonist?

Xykon and Tarquin. Lots more outside of the comic (Max Cady from the original Cape Fear comes to mind). They do seem to love their work. Miko also works. The thing is, for a tragic character to work, their line of reasoning has to be believable and not completely crazy.

The scene in the diner where Redcloak happily told Right-Eye about how everything would still turn out fine for the Dark One even if the Plan destroyed the world is where Redcloak lost me. Being chummy about it is just loony.

Miko was always a pain, but at least started out all right. The crazy can come later, that's fine. But it's gotta start someplace reasonable first.

Edit: And Malack! Man, BRitF was just too good.

[Chei]

But I definitely didn't feel like Redcloak was upstaged. SoD is the tragedy of Redcloak and Xykon, and that's exactly what it felt like to me, anyhow...

Was Xykon's story really a tragedy in the same sense? To me it actually felt like a rather darkly triumphant tale. If Xykon were a hero, you'd be cheering for the fact that he overcame the wizards who maligned him all his life, but since he's a villain and capital-E Evil, it's not cause for celebration that he was ultimately vindicated.

Redcloak, though, I understand. That's why I voted for him; I'm all about the tragic villains, especially those who come full circle so cleanly. Like I said when I voted for him, it kills me that he shook off the Crimson Mantle's compulsion to flee because his brother needed help, only to kill Right-Eye in the end with no (overt) coercion.

[Peelee]

Oh. I thought you just liked added ridiculously overdramatic flair in general :smalltongue:

If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right!

[alwaysbebatman]

Was Xykon's story really a tragedy in the same sense? To me it actually felt like a rather darkly triumphant tale. If Xykon were a hero, you'd be cheering for the fact that he overcame the wizards who maligned him all his life, but since he's a villain and capital-E Evil, it's not cause for celebration that he was ultimately vindicated.

He gave up all visceral enjoyments to become a lich, and the theme of his monologue to Redcloak at the end is that winning is all about how low you are willing to sink for it. His words applied to himself every bit as much as to Redcloak.

[Peelee]

He gave up all visceral enjoyments to become a lich, and the theme of his monologue to Redcloak at the end is that winning is all about how low you are willing to sink for it. His words applied to himself every bit as much as to Redcloak.

He also didn't realize what he was giving up until it was gone. The monologue is also justification after the fact. I'd call that tragederious. Dear diary, today I invented a new word. It was the best day ever.

[Ruck]

What I'm trying to say is that the characters that Rich has created for OOTS are all enjoyable on one level or another. I mean that I've never looked at any character and thought "Wow, that's poor characterization on Rich's part.."
Well, for example, I don't think the characters I mentioned have poor characterization. They're just the kind of people I hate.


Though I WILL say that it has now and forever killed any sympathy I might have ever had for him. The tragedy wasn't Redcloak's, it was Right-Eye's.


But I definitely didn't feel like Redcloak was upstaged. SoD is the tragedy of Redcloak and Xykon, and that's exactly what it felt like to me, anyhow...




Noooooo, that's not what "tragedy" means, not literary tragedy, anyhow. Something terrible happens to you because you were betrayed by someone you trusted because of their character flaws, that not your tragedy...

Right, what makes it Redcloak's tragedy is that it's Redcloak's own actions which led to results that are calamitous to him. What happened to Right-Eye is terrible, but he didn't really bring it on himself.

I don't really see Start of Darkness as Xykon's tragedy because he doesn't regret what's happened and indeed comes out roughly on top; he doesn't experience the reversal and recognition that define tragedy. Redcloak experiences reversal (he loses everything except the Plan to the Plan) and recognition (he brought this on himself, by prioritizing the Plan above all else, allying with Xykon, etc.)


He gave up all visceral enjoyments to become a lich, and the theme of his monologue to Redcloak at the end is that winning is all about how low you are willing to sink for it. His words applied to himself every bit as much as to Redcloak.


He also didn't realize what he was giving up until it was gone. The monologue is also justification after the fact. I'd call that tragederious. Dear diary, today I invented a new word. It was the best day ever.

I can see this point, but given his "Anything to avoid the big fire below" speech, and the fact that the alternative to becoming a lich was to just grow old and die, I still think Xykon might feel like it was a fair trade-off in the end. (He just had to substitute more exercising of power and killing things for coffee.)

[B. Dandelion]

Funny, I've voted against Redcloak lot, definitely not his biggest supporter here-- but I agree with those who've argued that his back story is amazing, but he's been awfully static lately.

What exactly is the basis for that? I don't think Redcloak has been "static" lately so much as "not around". From what I can tell, he's had a speaking role in six comics since 2012, which had the whole Tsukiko murder sequence on top of several other jaw droppers. In the sense of giving people new material to work with it makes sense to point out that Redcloak just hasn't been giving much in quite a while, but saying he's "static" or unchanging for not having done something completely new and unexpected in the six strips he's had to maneuver in since the last time he blew everybody's mind?

[alwaysbebatman]

Ooh, I did the thing!


#5 Belkar Bitterleaf # #2 Redcloak
Euclidodese 1 Goblin_Priest
Potatomade 2 goodpeople25
Chobarth 3 drazen
Fincher 4 Kish
Laurana 5 martianmister
Bob_McSurly 6 The Curt Jester
Riftwolf 7 Ruck
Hamste 8 NamonakiRei
Rack 9 lothos
Dr.Zero 10 Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast 11 Arkku
aurilee 12 2D8HP
Ornithologist 13 white lancer
littlebum2002 14 Amazon
Gift Jeraff 15 Chei
blademan9999 16 The Aboleth
Rogan 17 Joerg
Rasputin 18 LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking 19 hroþila
h0m3st4r 20 Legato Endless
21 Nathan5
22 Mandor
23 Svata
24 Bluepaw
25 B. Dandelion
26 137ben
27 Dushara


My god, that was tedious. There must be shortcuts I am unaware of. Jasdoif, teach me your ways!

But, yeah, Redcloak has a commanding lead.

[elros]

[B]Redcloak[/B, especially since that is not really his name! His identity is defined by his devotion to the Dark One, and his subservience to Xykon (even if that is feigned). I think that later strips will show more layers to Redcloak, and we will find out how much regret he has.
And although the Belkster is cool, Redcloak has his moments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

[Synesthesy]

I have thought and I vote Reddie.

Belkar and Redcloak are my favourite character (maybe with Elan, and always thinking that I like almost every character!), so it's hard to choose one of them.

So I took my favourite strips of both and choose what was the most important when I first read them. The end of the mark of justice curse for Belkar, and the final confrontation with Tsukiko for Reddie.
I think that the latter was the most moving, so I now vote for Redcloak.

[2D8HP]

Which is why I like to add ridiculously overdramatic flair. :smalltongue:
[Grabs pitchfork] Vive la révolucion!Heed:
Could you dial it back a notch, please? I despise hyperbole with the fury of a thousand suns! Hilarious! Thanks! :smile:


Fair enough. Both are plenty valid viewpoints. I'm just the kinda guy who likes Samwise Gamgee more than Aragorn...


Your not alone in that, to me Sam is the hero of LotR's, not the ponces!

[Peelee]

Heed: Hilarious! Thanks! :smile:




Your not alone in that, to me Sam is the hero of LotR's, not the ponces!

Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[Grabs pitchfork] Vive la révolucion!

That is an interesting typo. The "traditional" Spanish revolution call is "Viva la revolución!", meaning "(We) Acclaim the revolution!" (i.e. "Yay, the revolution!")

But your sentence still makes perfect sense. "Vive" means "live" (As in "Don't die on me! Live! Live!"). So you just said "Live the revolution!" which is actually something I could see being shouted by people with pitchforks.

(I suspect that ultimately, "viva" is derived from the verb "vivir" (to live) just like "vive" but I have been unable to substantiate this; it is its own verb (http://dle.rae.es/?id=bxfzOrL))
You also got the accent wrong, FWIW, which is little
Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

That is an interesting typo. The "traditional" Spanish revolution call is "Viva la revolución!", meaning "(We) Acclaim the revolution!" (i.e. "Yay, the revolution!")

But your sentence still makes perfect sense. "Vive" means "live" (As in "Don't die on me! Live! Live!"). So you just said "Live the revolution!" which is actually something I could see being shouted by people with pitchforks.

(I suspect that ultimately, "viva" is derived from the verb "vivir" (to live) just like "vive" but I have been unable to substantiate this; it is its own verb (http://dle.rae.es/?id=bxfzOrL))
You also got the accent wrong, FWIW, which is little
Grey Wolf

Or I used the French, and none of it's wrong.:smalltongue:
At least, not after I change the typo in "révolution"....
BTW, that was a pretty cool language lesson. Itd be more helpful if I knew more than one language, of course, but interesting nonetheless.

[Synesthesy]

Viva la Rivoluzione!

Just to add Italian too :smallwink:

(In Italian, 'viva' means both 'long life to' and '(we) acclaim', I always thought it was the same in Spanish!).

Even if Italy is not famous for revolutions, we usually can say 'viva la Resistenza!', 'we acclaim the resistance' (against nazifascism), so that means that I should have voted O-Chul instead of Redcloak? :smalleek:

[hroþila]

(I suspect that ultimately, "viva" is derived from the verb "vivir" (to live) just like "vive" but I have been unable to substantiate this; it is its own verb (http://dle.rae.es/?id=bxfzOrL))
I have never seen the verb "vivar" (which is perhaps not surprising, since I'm not from Argentina, Bolivia, Colombia, Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Peru, the Dominican Republic or Uruguay), but regardless, that verb is not used in "¡Viva la revolución!", since the verb is transitive and there's no direct object in that sentence. "Viva" is merely the subjunctive 3rd person sg. present tense of "vivir", and it is an exact equivalent to English "(Long) live the revolution" (note the old-fashioned subjunctive in English "live").

[Peelee]

Viva la Rivoluzione!

Just to add Italian too :smallwink:

(In Italian, 'viva' means both 'long life to' and '(we) acclaim', I always thought it was the same in Spanish!).

Even if Italy is not famous for revolutions, we usually can say 'viva la Resistenza!', 'we acclaim the resistance' (against nazifascism), so that means that I should have voted O-Chul instead of Redcloak? :smalleek:

So Now I'm saying those to myself so I can see how they'd sound, and it sounds like I'm just trying to make up fake Italian. It's hilarious. I love Italian.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

that verb is not used in "¡Viva la revolución!", since the verb is transitive and there's no direct object in that sentence.

"La revolución" would be the direct object in the sentence. What it doesn't have is a subject, which is an implied "everyone".


"Viva" is merely the subjunctive 3rd person sg. present tense of "vivir", and it is an exact equivalent to English "(Long) live the revolution" (note the old-fashioned subjunctive in English "live")
That is a strange claim. Why would the subjunctive be used? They are wishing for the revolution to live? As far as I know "¡Viva!" is just an exclamation ("interjection", if I'm reading the dictionary correctly), not a verb. At this point it is equivalent to, say, "¡Olé!" or "Woo!".

I am not disputing that originally it was a derivation of vivir - I speculated as much - but if I were to guess, I'd say the second person singular imperative is more likely than the subjunctive. I just did not find any evidence for that in a quick google search.

GW

[Peelee]

That is a strange claim. Why would the subjunctive be used? They are wishing for the revolution to live?

Real question here, is that not the case? If the revolution dies, the revolution would be over. Does "long live the X" have other connotations? I'm bad at reading comprehension.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In the only foreign language I know*, it would be “Es lebe die Revolution!”, which I feel just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

*for a rather lenient definition “know”, given that I’m almost sure a native speaker would correct me on this one.

[Peelee]

In the only foreign language I know*, it would be “Es lebe die Revolution!”, which I feel just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

*for a rather lenient definition “know”, given that I’m almost sure a native speaker would correct me on this one.

If It makes you feel any better, that's that one language I want to learn first, but I know that even if I become fluent in it, I'll struggle sometimes to speak to my family. Also, from all the sources I've ever heard, from my awesome cousins to Will Ferrel in The Producers... That may not have the same ring to it, but it still oozes power and passion.

[Dr.Zero]

So I took my favourite strips of both and choose what was the most important when I first read them. The end of the mark of justice curse for Belkar, and the final confrontation with Tsukiko for Reddie.
I think that the latter was the most moving, so I now vote for Redcloak.

Just wait to read Belkar's death strip, after he made his final, heroic sacrifice, saving the day.

(Referring to the clasp): "Hey... this thing... doesn't hurt... anymore. X_X"


I think I'm misting up already. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)

(On the other hand even a reference to his fear to die alone and unloved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) might work nicely).

[hroþila]

"La revolución" would be the direct object in the sentence. What it doesn't have is a subject, which is an implied "everyone".
While that would be theoretically grammatically correct, that is not the case here. "La revolución" is the subject. You can tell because of parallel constructions like "¡Vivan los novios!" ("[Long] live the bride and the groom!"), where "los novios" is clearly the subject of a present tense subjunctive verbal form, and because this construction is used all over the Spanish-speaking world, including parts where the verb "vivar" isn't used. Besides, a singular imperative wouldn't make any sense in this context: the sentence will almost exclusively be addressed to an audience, so at any rate the plural imperative would be needed if your theory was correct ("Acclaim the revolution, y'all", not "Acclaim the revolution, you, yes you right there").

That is a strange claim. Why would the subjunctive be used? They are wishing for the revolution to live? As far as I know "¡Viva!" is just an exclamation ("interjection", if I'm reading the dictionary correctly), not a verb. At this point it is equivalent to, say, "¡Olé!" or "Woo!".
They are indeed wishing for the revolution to live, and that construction requires the subjunctive in Spanish (and indeed, in English, as the example I mentioned shows). "Viva" can be analyzed as an interjection, true, and it can indeed be used as one (just "¡viva!", without any subject, to mean "hooray!" or "woo!", as you say), but this is a different context: here we have its original verbal use, with a subject that must agree with it ("¡Viva la revolución!" vs "¡Vivan los novios!").

I am not disputing that originally it was a derivation of vivir - I speculated as much - but if I were to guess, I'd say the second person singular imperative is more likely than the subjunctive. I just did not find any evidence for that in a quick google search.
No, you can't use the second person imperative with a third person referent - that's what the subjunctive is for in Spanish.

PS: I'm a native Spanish speaker. Not sure when it'd be a good time to bring it up, so I'll just get it out of the way. :smallwink:

[RatElemental]

This is a tough one. Both characters have had some really good moments. Like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) for Redcloak, with this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html), this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html), and of course this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) iconic moment for Belkar.

And what someone mentioned is true, these two really couldn't be more opposite, Redcloak the tragic villain who's gone ahead and jumped off the slippery slope, and Belkar the relentless sociopath who's trying to climb back up it even if he doesn't realize it.

In the end, though, I still have to vote for Belkar. Maybe that would be different if I'd read start of darkness (which I totally will some day!), but Redcloaks two biggest shifts in the online comic in his character were being not racist to other goblinoids, and becoming more ruthless towards nongoblinoids.

[Synesthesy]

So Now I'm saying those to myself so I can see how they'd sound, and it sounds like I'm just trying to make up fake Italian. It's hilarious. I love Italian.

Thank you :smallredface:


Just wait to read Belkar's death strip, after he made his final, heroic sacrifice, saving the day.

(Referring to the clasp): "Hey... this thing... doesn't hurt... anymore. X_X"


I think I'm misting up already. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)

(On the other hand even a reference to his fear to die alone and unloved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) might work nicely).

I still think that Belkar won't die, or at least, he won't disappear from comic's world. Mr Scruffy won't be alone again....

[Jasdoif]

My god, that was tedious. There must be shortcuts I am unaware of. Jasdoif, teach me your ways!Right-clicking the number in the upper-right corner of a post and opening it to a new window reveals the post id number right there in the URL; then I type (or if necessary copy/paste) the poster's name in one column of a spreadsheet, copy/paste the postid into another, and the vote into a third (the autocomplete in OpenOffice Calc is helpful here). That doesn't really cut down on the tedious factor, mind you....


Writing a Python function to assemble the table is almost certainly overkill, but can be fun :smalltongue: .

The trick is that copy/pasting from Calc keeps each row in its own line and separates columns with tabs, and Python's triple-quote string delimiter keeps those line breaks, so it's easy to get regions of a spreadsheet into workable form via copy/paste (I set up a lot of calculations that way).

Then it's a matter of forming a list of all the posts for a particular vote (using a dictionary of lists with the vote itself as the key), and then combining the list items together via zip_longest to get each list into its own column...and a bunch of string formatting throughout to turn that into table BBcode.


import collections
import itertools

def RenderVoteRowsFromPosterPostVoteString(copyPasteFr omCalc):
voterDict=collections.defaultdict(lambda: list())
for poster,post,vote in (line.split("\t") for line in copyPasteFromCalc.splitlines()):
voterDict[vote].append("{0}".format(poster,post))
voteColumns=list(voterDict.keys())
voteColumns.sort()
print('')
print(" {0}".format("#".join("{0}".format(voteColumn) for voteColumn in voteColumns)))
voteLists=[voterDict[voteColumn] for voteColumn in voteColumns]
for rowNumber,sortedVotes in enumerate(itertools.zip_longest(*voteLists, fillvalue="
:smalleek:"), start=1):
numberCell="{0}".format(rowNumber)
print(" {0}".format(numberCell.join("{0}".format(currentVote) for currentVote in sortedVotes)))
print("")


So,

RenderVoteRowsFromPosterPostVoteString("""Euclidodese 22401603 Belkar
Potatomade 22401618 Belkar
Peelee 22401627 Peelean Freethinking Forward Team
Goblin_Priest 22401652 Redcloak
Liquor Box 22401707 Belkar
goodpeople25 22401718 Redcloak
drazen 22401813 Redcloak
Bobb 22401836 Peelean Freethinking Forward Team
Chobarth 22401857 Belkar
Kish 22401868 Redcloak
martianmister 22401905 Redcloak
The Curt Jester 22401961 Redcloak
Fincher 22401977 Belkar
Ruck 22402008 Redcloak
NamonakiRei 22402030 Redcloak
Laurana 22402178 Belkar
lothos 22402299 Redcloak
Bob_McSurly 22402370 Belkar
Riftwolf 22402376 Belkar
Hamste 22402593 Belkar
Rack 22402680 Belkar
Jaxzan Proditor 22402744 Redcloak
Dr.Zero 22402812 Belkar
Arkku 22402820 Redcloak
2D8HP 22402874 Redcloak
KorvinStarmast 22402969 Belkar
aurilee 22402974 Belkar
Ornithologist 22403002 Belkar
littlebum2002 22403092 Belkar
white lancer 22403258 Redcloak
Amazon 22403358 Redcloak
Gift Jeraff 22403393 Belkar
Chei 22403417 Redcloak
The Aboleth 22403554 Redcloak
blademan9999 22403562 Belkar
Rogan 22403618 Belkar
Joerg 22404136 Redcloak
Rasputin 22404176 Belkar
LadyEowyn 22404385 Redcloak
Thedoctorking 22404493 Belkar
hroþila 22404540 Redcloak
Legato Endless 22404593 Redcloak
Nathan5 22404783 Redcloak
h0m3st4r 22404868 Belkar
Mandor 22404878 Redcloak
Svata 22404880 Redcloak
Bluepaw 22404929 Redcloak
B. Dandelion 22405269 Redcloak
137ben 22405599 Redcloak
Dushara 22405717 Redcloak
elros 22406170 Redcloak
Synthesy 22406232 Redcloak
RatElemental 22407216 Belkar""")

produces



Belkar#Peelean Freethinking Forward Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Liquor Box3
:smalleek:3drazen
Chobarth4
:smalleek:4Kish
Fincher5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Laurana6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Bob_McSurly7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Riftwolf8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Hamste9
:smalleek:9lothos
Rack10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
Dr.Zero11
:smalleek:11Arkku
KorvinStarmast12
:smalleek:122D8HP
aurilee13
:smalleek:13white lancer
Ornithologist14
:smalleek:14Amazon
littlebum200215
:smalleek:15Chei
Gift Jeraff16
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
blademan999917
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rogan18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Rasputin19
:smalleek:19hroþila
Thedoctorking20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
h0m3st4r21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
RatElemental22
:smalleek:22Mandor

:smalleek:23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synthesy


A few line breaks for improved column sizing since "Peelean Freethinking Forward Team" is pretty long otherwise, and....


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Liquor Box3
:smalleek:3drazen
Chobarth4
:smalleek:4Kish
Fincher5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Laurana6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Bob_McSurly7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Riftwolf8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Hamste9
:smalleek:9lothos
Rack10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
Dr.Zero11
:smalleek:11Arkku
KorvinStarmast12
:smalleek:122D8HP
aurilee13
:smalleek:13white lancer
Ornithologist14
:smalleek:14Amazon
littlebum200215
:smalleek:15Chei
Gift Jeraff16
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
blademan999917
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rogan18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Rasputin19
:smalleek:19hroþila
Thedoctorking20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
h0m3st4r21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
RatElemental22
:smalleek:22Mandor

:smalleek:23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synthesy


Looks like Redcloak has a sizable lead, still, and PFFT is (unsurprisingly) barely on the board.

It's kind of ambiguous whether or not Liquor Box's "plug for Belkar" constitutes a vote; I chose to count it as a vote, hence the mismatch between our tables (aside from new votes coming in).

[B. Dandelion]

I still think that Belkar won't die, or at least, he won't disappear from comic's world. Mr Scruffy won't be alone again....

There's a bonus strip at the end of DStP that has a Hinjo/Scruffy reunion and the two are utterly delighted to see each other. Hinjo says explicitly he'll take care of his uncle's old cat if Belkar should be unable to.

[Peelee]

I now have are favorite adjective.

[alwaysbebatman]

Thank you, Jasdoif, that's awesome.

Hmm. I think I'm ready to vote.

Belkar

[Floret]

In the only foreign language I know*, it would be “Es lebe die Revolution!”, which I feel just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

*for a rather lenient definition “know”, given that I’m almost sure a native speaker would correct me on this one.

At least I wouldn't. It's a perfectly fine translation.
Granted, I'd assume at least some Germans (Me included) might just go with a "viva la revolution!", for the shere memetic power of the phrase, but that would be cheating.

Also, as much as a close vote would be more interesting, I,too, have to vote for Redcloak.

[Potatomade]

Bah. Overrated character is overrated! Chaos is better than Law! Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!

[Synesthesy]

There's a bonus strip at the end of DStP that has a Hinjo/Scruffy reunion and the two are utterly delighted to see each other. Hinjo says explicitly he'll take care of his uncle's old cat if Belkar should be unable to.

Too explicit foreshadowing is foreshadowing the exact opposite, IMHO. However, thank you for the explanation!

[Liquor Box]

Right-clicking the number in the upper-right corner of a post and opening it to a new window reveals the post id number right there in the URL; then I type (or if necessary copy/paste) the poster's name in one column of a spreadsheet, copy/paste the postid into another, and the vote into a third (the autocomplete in OpenOffice Calc is helpful here). That doesn't really cut down on the tedious factor, mind you....


Writing a Python function to assemble the table is almost certainly overkill, but can be fun :smalltongue: .

The trick is that copy/pasting from Calc keeps each row in its own line and separates columns with tabs, and Python's triple-quote string delimiter keeps those line breaks, so it's easy to get regions of a spreadsheet into workable form via copy/paste (I set up a lot of calculations that way).

Then it's a matter of forming a list of all the posts for a particular vote (using a dictionary of lists with the vote itself as the key), and then combining the list items together via zip_longest to get each list into its own column...and a bunch of string formatting throughout to turn that into table BBcode.


import collections
import itertools

def RenderVoteRowsFromPosterPostVoteString(copyPasteFr omCalc):
voterDict=collections.defaultdict(lambda: list())
for poster,post,vote in (line.split("\t") for line in copyPasteFromCalc.splitlines()):
voterDict[vote].append("{0}".format(poster,post))
voteColumns=list(voterDict.keys())
voteColumns.sort()
print('')
print(" {0}".format("#".join("{0}".format(voteColumn) for voteColumn in voteColumns)))
voteLists=[voterDict[voteColumn] for voteColumn in voteColumns]
for rowNumber,sortedVotes in enumerate(itertools.zip_longest(*voteLists, fillvalue="
:smalleek:"), start=1):
numberCell="{0}".format(rowNumber)
print(" {0}".format(numberCell.join("{0}".format(currentVote) for currentVote in sortedVotes)))
print("")


So,

RenderVoteRowsFromPosterPostVoteString("""Euclidodese 22401603 Belkar
Potatomade 22401618 Belkar
Peelee 22401627 Peelean Freethinking Forward Team
Goblin_Priest 22401652 Redcloak
Liquor Box 22401707 Belkar
goodpeople25 22401718 Redcloak
drazen 22401813 Redcloak
Bobb 22401836 Peelean Freethinking Forward Team
Chobarth 22401857 Belkar
Kish 22401868 Redcloak
martianmister 22401905 Redcloak
The Curt Jester 22401961 Redcloak
Fincher 22401977 Belkar
Ruck 22402008 Redcloak
NamonakiRei 22402030 Redcloak
Laurana 22402178 Belkar
lothos 22402299 Redcloak
Bob_McSurly 22402370 Belkar
Riftwolf 22402376 Belkar
Hamste 22402593 Belkar
Rack 22402680 Belkar
Jaxzan Proditor 22402744 Redcloak
Dr.Zero 22402812 Belkar
Arkku 22402820 Redcloak
2D8HP 22402874 Redcloak
KorvinStarmast 22402969 Belkar
aurilee 22402974 Belkar
Ornithologist 22403002 Belkar
littlebum2002 22403092 Belkar
white lancer 22403258 Redcloak
Amazon 22403358 Redcloak
Gift Jeraff 22403393 Belkar
Chei 22403417 Redcloak
The Aboleth 22403554 Redcloak
blademan9999 22403562 Belkar
Rogan 22403618 Belkar
Joerg 22404136 Redcloak
Rasputin 22404176 Belkar
LadyEowyn 22404385 Redcloak
Thedoctorking 22404493 Belkar
hroþila 22404540 Redcloak
Legato Endless 22404593 Redcloak
Nathan5 22404783 Redcloak
h0m3st4r 22404868 Belkar
Mandor 22404878 Redcloak
Svata 22404880 Redcloak
Bluepaw 22404929 Redcloak
B. Dandelion 22405269 Redcloak
137ben 22405599 Redcloak
Dushara 22405717 Redcloak
elros 22406170 Redcloak
Synthesy 22406232 Redcloak
RatElemental 22407216 Belkar""")

produces



Belkar#Peelean Freethinking Forward Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Liquor Box3
:smalleek:3drazen
Chobarth4
:smalleek:4Kish
Fincher5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Laurana6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Bob_McSurly7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Riftwolf8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Hamste9
:smalleek:9lothos
Rack10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
Dr.Zero11
:smalleek:11Arkku
KorvinStarmast12
:smalleek:122D8HP
aurilee13
:smalleek:13white lancer
Ornithologist14
:smalleek:14Amazon
littlebum200215
:smalleek:15Chei
Gift Jeraff16
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
blademan999917
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rogan18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Rasputin19
:smalleek:19hroþila
Thedoctorking20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
h0m3st4r21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
RatElemental22
:smalleek:22Mandor

:smalleek:23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synthesy


A few line breaks for improved column sizing since "Peelean Freethinking Forward Team" is pretty long otherwise, and....


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Liquor Box3
:smalleek:3drazen
Chobarth4
:smalleek:4Kish
Fincher5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Laurana6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Bob_McSurly7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Riftwolf8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Hamste9
:smalleek:9lothos
Rack10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
Dr.Zero11
:smalleek:11Arkku
KorvinStarmast12
:smalleek:122D8HP
aurilee13
:smalleek:13white lancer
Ornithologist14
:smalleek:14Amazon
littlebum200215
:smalleek:15Chei
Gift Jeraff16
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
blademan999917
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rogan18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Rasputin19
:smalleek:19hroþila
Thedoctorking20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
h0m3st4r21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
RatElemental22
:smalleek:22Mandor

:smalleek:23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synthesy


Looks like Redcloak has a sizable lead, still, and PFFT is (unsurprisingly) barely on the board.

It's kind of ambiguous whether or not Liquor Box's "plug for Belkar" constitutes a vote; I chose to count it as a vote, hence the mismatch between our tables (aside from new votes coming in).

My post wasn't intended to be a vote, and I have amended it to make it clear. I will probably vote for Belkar, but I like Redcloak too, so I want to wait a bit before committing.

Alwaysbatman did set out some rules for what constitutes a vote in one of the earlier voting threads. From memory it was quite strict - preceded by the words "I vote for" or similar, or bolded.

[Ruck]

Bah. Overrated character is overrated! Chaos is better than Law! Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!

It's funny, I would consider myself on the Chaotic Good spectrum, yet I think the Lawful Evil character is probably the most unique and complex creation of the comic.

[alwaysbebatman]

Ah, so that wasn't intended as a ballot yet. Thank you for clarifying.

[2D8HP]

Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).


Gosh Peelee, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and you have started another grammar discussion at a thread (it's been said that in any long enough internet discussion somehow someone brings up Hitler, but at the Playground I think we're more likely to get in the weeds with grammar), and you have an adjective now!

Damn... who does a Ranger have to sleep with, or kill, or both around here to get an adjective....

[TheBeggarDwarf]

Belkar

As wonderful a character as Redcloak is, I have to stand by the OOTS.

[Potatomade]

It's funny, I would consider myself on the Chaotic Good spectrum, yet I think the Lawful Evil character is probably the most unique and complex creation of the comic.

Huh. I'm probably Lawful Good, and I think the Chaotic Evil character is better than the Lawful Evil one. Maybe we just like villains that are the opposite of who we ourselves are.

[Bob_McSurly]

Huh. I'm probably Lawful Good, and I think the Chaotic Evil character is better than the Lawful Evil one. Maybe we just like villains that are the opposite of who we ourselves are.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I usually think of myself as Lawful Neutral, and my favourite villain is totally Tarquin. I understand his motivations on a personal level.
Also when you say "the Chaotic Evil character", do you mean Belkar? Because I don't think he qualifies as a villain so much as an evil protagonist or anti-hero.

[Potatomade]

Eh, sure. But without something (Roy) keeping him in check, he would have spiralled into villainy long ago. There's not that much difference to me. And I liked Xykon more than Redcloak, and he's definitely a villain.

Maybe it's more, we like characters that let us vent things about ourselves we find repugnant. Like an outlet for all the bad stuff in our heads. Storytelling's equivalent to sports, I dunno.

[Jasdoif]

My post wasn't intended to be a vote, and I have amended it to make it clear.So noted.

Maybe it's more, we like characters that let us vent things about ourselves we find repugnant. Like an outlet for all the bad stuff in our heads. Storytelling's equivalent to sports, I dunno.I think it's more like we typically are most interested in characters with traits we identify with...especially if those characters have other traits we find abhorrent. Somewhere between "so familiar as to be forgettable" and "so alien as to be unfathomable", the contrast draws the attention.


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Chobarth3
:smalleek:3drazen
Fincher4
:smalleek:4Kish
Laurana5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smalleek:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smalleek:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smalleek:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smalleek:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smalleek:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smalleek:15Chei
blademan999916
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smalleek:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smalleek:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synthesy

:smalleek:30
:smalleek:30Floret

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I stand with Peelee.

GW

[Synesthesy]

I'm not Synthesy :smallfrown:

[Peelee]

I'm not Synthesy :smallfrown:

I am Spartacus Synthesy!

[Jasdoif]

I'm not Synthesy :smallfrown:
I am Spartacus Synthesy!Oops. Will take care of that....


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee
Spartacus
Synthesy (?)1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Chobarth3Grey_Wolf_c3drazen
Fincher4
:smalleek:4Kish
Laurana5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smalleek:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smalleek:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smalleek:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smalleek:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smalleek:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smalleek:15Chei
blademan999916
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smalleek:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smalleek:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smalleek:23Svata

:smalleek:24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw

:smalleek:25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion

:smalleek:26
:smalleek:26137ben

:smalleek:27
:smalleek:27Dushara

:smalleek:28
:smalleek:28elros

:smalleek:29
:smalleek:29Synesthesy

:smalleek:30
:smalleek:30Floret

[Peelee]

Oops. Will take care of that....

Awww, you're sweet. But no longer having Peelee be on the Peelean Forward Thinking Team just doesn't do it for me as well as I thought.

[Johanz]

Man, I learned my lesson from seeing O-Chul lose by a single vote. Hopefully this vote will end up mattering as well.

I vote for Belkar, the halfling murder-machine that every PC should(n't) strive to become!

[Ruck]

Huh. I'm probably Lawful Good, and I think the Chaotic Evil character is better than the Lawful Evil one. Maybe we just like villains that are the opposite of who we ourselves are.

I dunno if it's necessarily that; my two most hated villains were Kubota, who's Lawful Evil, and Nale, who claims to be (even though he comes across as Chaotic quite a bit). I think there might be something to the idea that it takes more effort to develop a character from an opposing viewpoint that I can relate to, so when it does happen, it's more impressive and the character has more depth and complexity than is typical.

[Liquor Box]

When does this one end?

[alwaysbebatman]

26 Sept 2359 UTC.

[The1exile]

I vote Belkar.

I would have voted Reddie if this took place, like, 500 strips ago, and it's a worthy contest... but I find Belkar's will-he-won't-he of his quasi redemption arc interesting. And the jokes don't hurt either.

[grandpheonix]

Belkar! I never got worried for redcloak, but at the godsmoot when he got flung off the roof? I thought he bit it.

[alwaysbebatman]

Belkar! I never got worried for redcloak, but at the godsmoot when he got flung off the roof? I thought he bit it.

Good point. A prophecy that a character will absolutely and irrevocably die soon definitely shakes some of the perceived protagonist plot armor off him.

On the other hand, a protagonist can't die off panel! (Pretty sure.)

Three in a row for Belkar brings this close enough to maybe be almost dramatic.

30/26 Redcloak.

[GuySmiley1970]

Belkar. Funnier, more courageous, and kinder to animals. Also, I just can't get sold on Redcloak's whole "end justifies the means" thing.

[Darth Paul]

I've never liked rooting for the villain, no matter how good his Freudian excuses might be.

So my vote is for the Token Evil Teammate, Belkar Bitterleaf.

[Peelee]

I've never liked rooting for the villain, no matter how good his Freudian excuses might be.

So my vote is for the Token Evil Teammate, Belkar Bitterleaf.

Out of curiosity, let's say there was a completely justified villain, and a completely jerkish hero. The villain does the wrong things for the right reasons, the hero does the right things for the wrong reasons. Would you still root for the hero?

[Bobb]

Out of curiosity, let's say there was a completely justified villain, and a completely jerkish hero. The villain does the wrong things for the right reasons, the hero does the right things for the wrong reasons. Would you still root for the hero?

Quick interrupt: Redcloak isn't doing things for the right reasons.

He killed his brother and helped enslave his goblin village in the hopes of his species "getting theirs." Not justice. Getting a taste of being on top for a change.

He categorically judges sapient individuals based on their species and only recently outgrew enjoying hobgoblins dying for convenience's sake. He has graduated to elf captain standards of "the only good human is a dead human."

Not the right reasons. Not the right actions.

*Not saying you are defending Redcloak's motivations.

[Peelee]

Quick interrupt: Redcloak isn't doing things for the right reasons.

I absolutely agree. I'm not drawing a parallel to the comic, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how Darth Paul feels about stuff.

Oh, also, can you spoiler the stuff from Start of Darkness?

[B. Dandelion]

Quick interrupt: Redcloak isn't doing things for the right reasons.

He killed his brother and helped enslave his goblin village in the hopes of his species "getting theirs." Not justice. Getting a taste of being on top for a change.

Did he? He wanted to settle in that village. Xykon showed up, put the kibosh on that plan, and enslaved everybody. That counts as "helping"? It looked to me more like "getting enslaved along with everybody else".

He gets called out on that one a lot and it always strikes me as an incredibly biased and unfair reading of what happened. He was totally powerless in that situation, and had just gotten done expressing how he wanted to help the village live peacefully. I guess maybe there should have been panels of him begging Xykon not to do it, even though it wouldn't have worked, but seriously.

[Bobb]

Did he? He wanted to settle in that village. Xykon showed up, put the kibosh on that plan, and enslaved everybody. That counts as "helping"? It looked to me more like "getting enslaved along with everybody else".

He gets called out on that one a lot and it always strikes me as an incredibly biased and unfair reading of what happened. He was totally powerless in that situation, and had just gotten done expressing how he wanted to help the village live peacefully. I guess maybe there should have been panels of him begging Xykon not to do it, even though it wouldn't have worked, but seriously.


Initially it could be argued he was without agency and merely a victim of circumstances.

But he both accepts and attempts to enable the continued enslavement of his people. Because he gave orders to those people from said enslaver dude.

Because Wrong eye put his life on the line for actual goblins and redcloak helped end him.

At the point where he thought his actions would either:

end the menace to his brother's people,

or

make the previous goblin deaths (his compatriots) a wasted sacrifice and set the plan back (or even risk it failing)

Redcloak chose to help Xykon keep Wrong Eye's people enslaved.

[alwaysbebatman]

Belkar has gotten 6 votes in a row shrinking Redcloak's lead to just 2 votes.

[B. Dandelion]

Initially it could be argued he was without agency and merely a victim of circumstances.

But he both accepts and attempts to enable the continued enslavement of his people. Because he gave orders to those people from said enslaver dude.

You're arguing that a slave relaying orders to his fellow slaves is complicit to their enslavement? I do not agree.


Because Wrong eye put his life on the line for actual goblins and redcloak helped end him.

At the point where he thought his actions would either:

end the menace to his brother's people,

or

make the previous goblin deaths (his compatriots) a wasted sacrifice and set the plan back (or even risk it failing)

Redcloak chose to help Xykon keep Wrong Eye's people enslaved.
You mean Right-Eye, not Wrong-Eye. Right-Eye was Redcloak's brother, "Wrong-Eye" is a nickname for Redcloak himself. Y'know, because Right-Eye had lost his left eye, and then Redcloak lost his right eye, after he lost Right-Eye.

(I said "eye" so many times there that semantic satiation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation) has kicked in and the word no longer has any meaning to me.)

Anyway...

I'm not going to sit here and argue that Redcloak made the right choice there by murdering his brother. That wasn't what I set out to argue when I took issue with an argument about him having enslaved Right-Eye's village.

But I don't think it's as clear-cut a matter as you present it as. One thing about Redcloak that I've said before is that I think at a lot of the critical junctures in his life, he's been faced with mostly bad options. He then goes on to pick the worst option. It's not absolution, but it is a mitigating factor. In this case, Right-Eye's plan amounted to having a chance to take out Xykon, possibly the best they'd ever get. But it was still a plan with a high risk of failure, and Redcloak worried that if it did fail, that Xykon would retaliate by killing everybody and going on to enslave a new village. Right-Eye was prepared to take that risk. Redcloak said he couldn't allow him to put so many lives in jeopardy -- and Right-Eye, rightly, called him a hypocrite because Redcloak does that all the time for the sake of the Plan. Redcloak thinks that's different because the Plan is for the betterment of the goblin people and Right-Eye calls BS, Redcloak is attached to the Plan past the point of all sense because abandoning it means all the goblins who died for it weren't martyrs for a noble cause but needless deaths that Redcloak personally bears fault for. Right-Eye then gave up on persuading him and tried to force the issue by attacking, and Redcloak killed him.

Was it the right thing? No. But passing up on a possible chance to kill Xykon with huge downsides is not the choice many people frame it as, they put it as a clear-cut and outright opportunity to kill Xykon that he turned down for no reason other than stubbornness.

Of course then later it turned out that the plan would have failed anyway, because Xykon knew about it, but that's not necessarily relevant. Although by the same token then it's not necessarily relevant that all the goblins Redcloak had been worried about got killed anyway -- by the Order of the Stick, when they blew up the dungeon. Yeah, the ultimate fate of Right-Eye's village was to end up getting killed pointlessly by Elan... those poor goblins, they got screwed over by all sides. :smallfrown:

[Darth Paul]

Out of curiosity, let's say there was a completely justified villain, and a completely jerkish hero. The villain does the wrong things for the right reasons, the hero does the right things for the wrong reasons. Would you still root for the hero?

I'm having trouble working out how the villain does that, while remaining a villain.

If you're doing things for the right reasons, even things that are generally a wrong thing, you usually qualify for anti-hero status at least. Consider Wade Wilson aka Deadpool in his movie incarnation; starts out as "a bad guy who fights even worse guys", yet by the end he was elevated to hero. And his methods could hardly be considered heroic; yet he wasn't the villain. It becomes a case of protagonist-centered morality. The hero is doing it, so we laugh it off, even if there's a groan along with it. (By the way, Ryan Reynolds would make a great Belkar in the film version.)

I couldn't watch the series 24, because the main character disgusted me. I realize his actions were a lot like the Deadpool character's, but played seriously, not over the top and played for laughs. Yet he was supposed to be a hero. Maybe he was a villain, doing wrong things for the right reasons.

[Peelee]

I'm having trouble working out how the villain does that, while remaining a villain.

If you're doing things for the right reasons, even things that are generally a wrong thing, you usually qualify for anti-hero status at least. Consider Wade Wilson aka Deadpool in his movie incarnation; starts out as "a bad guy who fights even worse guys", yet by the end he was elevated to hero. And his methods could hardly be considered heroic; yet he wasn't the villain. It becomes a case of protagonist-centered morality. The hero is doing it, so we laugh it off, even if there's a groan along with it. (By the way, Ryan Reynolds would make a great Belkar in the film version.)

I couldn't watch the series 24, because the main character disgusted me. I realize his actions were a lot like the Deadpool character's, but played seriously, not over the top and played for laughs. Yet he was supposed to be a hero. Maybe he was a villain, doing wrong things for the right reasons.

Really, really hate Ryan Reynolds. I will never willingly see a movie starring him anymore. Also, never seen 24.

Anyway, that aside, let's say Dexter Morgan's story, from the point of view of Doakes. Dexter gets criminals off the street, but is unambiguously a villain. Doakes wants to put him away, but is an unambiguous ass.

[Ruck]

Unfortunately, Showtime network executives (and possibly head writer Scott Buck) didn't get the whole "Dexter is a villain thing," which may have been a major factor in why the ending was such a train wreck.

[TheStargazer]

A vote for Redcloak is a vote for equality, and an end to the discrimination of Goblinoid kind.

Okay, maybe that's not quite entirely accurate, but I like him better than Belkar so...

[alwaysbebatman]

31/28, Redcloak.

[-D-]

I vote for sexy shoeless God of war. Belkar

[Darth Paul]

Anyway, that aside, let's say Dexter Morgan's story, from the point of view of Doakes. Dexter gets criminals off the street, but is unambiguously a villain. Doakes wants to put him away, but is an unambiguous ass.

I don't know that reference.

The Shield? Vic Mackey was a villain cop who was doing the right things (sometimes) for the wrong reasons and doing it in the wrong way. But he never (or very seldom) did wrong things for the right reasons. He often claimed his reasons were right, he was only doing it for the good of his family, etc., but the more we peeled away his motivations, we saw he was just a greedy, corrupt SOB who felt he was above the law that he himself swore to uphold. The fascination of the series was in seeing how long he would survive before his inevitable fall.

And there was an inspector who was equally a jerk but doing the right thing, going after corrupt cops. You didn't root for him, because he was such an ass.

[Peelee]

I don't know that reference.

The Shield? Vic Mackey was a villain cop who was doing the right things (sometimes) for the wrong reasons and doing it in the wrong way. But he never (or ver seldom) did wrong things for the right reasons. He often claimed his reasons were right, he was only doing it for the good of his family, etc., but the more we peeled away his motivations, we saw he was just a greedy, corrupt SOB who felt he was above the law that he himself swore to uphold. The fascination of the series was in seeing how long he would survive before his inevitable fall.

And there was an inspector who was equally a jerk but doing the right thing, going after corrupt cops. You didn't root for him, because he was such an ass.

Haven't seen The Shield. Hmmmm. This might be tricky.

[Elkad]

Count me in for Belkar.

[Sylian]

Redcloak, mainly because of Start of Darkness (though some of his actions in the main comic are pretty awesome too).

[L8r]

I thought I already voted, but I couldn't find my vote in here. Redcloak, my favourite by a landslide.

[alwaysbebatman]

Man, the lead dropped to only 1 point there for a second.

33/30 Redcloak.

[Ruck]

I don't know that reference.

The Shield? Vic Mackey was a villain cop who was doing the right things (sometimes) for the wrong reasons and doing it in the wrong way. But he never (or very seldom) did wrong things for the right reasons. He often claimed his reasons were right, he was only doing it for the good of his family, etc., but the more we peeled away his motivations, we saw he was just a greedy, corrupt SOB who felt he was above the law that he himself swore to uphold. The fascination of the series was in seeing how long he would survive before his inevitable fall.

And there was an inspector who was equally a jerk but doing the right thing, going after corrupt cops. You didn't root for him, because he was such an ass.

The Shield is my favorite drama of all time. There are a few parallels to Mackey and Redcloak, although I see Redcloak as more of a "grimly determined to stick with a path he knows he should quit" type, and not as out-and-out self-delusional as Vic.

In the end, Vic's motivation wasn't even so much to protect the streets, or take care of his family, or even strictly to get rich, so much as it was to just get away with it all, and to avoid ever confronting that his self-image as a good man is a lie (in other words, to avoid reversal and recognition).

[StragaSevera]

If the vote would conclude five years later, I would pick Belkar.
But now, in 2017, Belkar still does not have the depth of a well-done character, so I will pick Redcloak.

[Peat]

Belkar - still picking what I find funny.

I'm never sure just how deep or shallow a character I find him, or how much I buy into his arc (although the whole fake being good thing is pretty new on me, which is rare in storytelling these days).

But when there's a lot of characters being deep and dramatic, a good one liner machine is needed. And his limitations give an element of pathos when he does get spotlight.

[Darth Paul]

Haven't seen The Shield. Hmmmm. This might be tricky.

Agreed.

Hmmm. "The Goddam Batman" does a lot of wrong things for the right reasons, yet he is still a hero. Sure, he's way south of Superman, but he's still heroic when the chips are down, he refuses to kill (in most incarnations)... so what if he dangles the occasional punk off a rooftop?
Yet it's hard to imagine Joker doing a wrong thing for the right reason. I think that may be why Suicide Squad didn't do well (even though I haven't seen it...) a group of villain protagonists forced to do heroic-ish things, if I have the main outlines of the plot right. Dirty Dozen with supervillains. Not a strict parallel, I know, the Dozen weren't all villains- just nonconformists or guys with bad luck.

[Second Arrow]

Redcloak. We cannot fail now, now that we are so close!

[Kish]

"The Goddamn Batman," as distinct from every portrayal of Batman by any other writer, is a literary atrocity whose sole value lies in demonstrating viscerally the truth of the saying, "If you have to tell people you're [impressive], you aren't."

[Arkku]

We cannot fail now, now that we are so close!

Indeed, go team red!

[Darth Paul]

So, Kish, I take it you're not a fan of Frank Miller?

[Jasdoif]

OK, so we're currently standing at....


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Chobarth3Grey_Wolf_c3drazen
Fincher4
:smalleek:4Kish
Laurana5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smalleek:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smalleek:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smalleek:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smalleek:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smalleek:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smalleek:15Chei
blademan999916
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smalleek:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smalleek:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smalleek:23Svata
Johanz24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw
The1exile25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion
grandpheonix26
:smalleek:26137ben
GuySmiley197027
:smalleek:27Dushara
Darth Paul28
:smalleek:28elros
-D-29
:smalleek:29Synesthesy
Elkad30
:smalleek:30Floret
Peat31
:smalleek:31TheStargazer

:smalleek:32
:smalleek:32Sylian

:smalleek:33
:smalleek:33L8r

:smalleek:34
:smalleek:34StragaSevera

:smalleek:35
:smalleek:35Second Arrow

[Kish]

So, Kish, I take it you're not a fan of Frank Miller?
Well, the ratio of sex workers to women who aren't sex workers in his work is just a tidge horrendous and in general everything he writes would be greatly improved by being set on fire, but more specifically, if someone questions you and you have to reply "I'm the goddamn Batman" then you've just proven that being Batman doesn't actually carry such authority that it's that's a valid answer to being questioned.

"I'm Batman" alone, without demanding any response from someone, can be badass; adding "the goddamn" and offering it as a reason you should receive compliance serves to transmute it to the utter pitifulness of someone saying, "I'M VERY IMPORTANT! DO AS I SAY OR MY DADDY WILL PUNISH YOU!"

[alwaysbebatman]

Hmm. To provide a different perspective: I love Frank Miller's work, and he created one if the most iconic female characters in the superhero genre (Elektra.)

And I also think that "the GODDAMN Batman" is goddamn travesty.

[2D8HP]

Out of curiosity, let's say there was a completely justified villain, and a completely jerkish hero. The villain does the wrong things for the right reasons, the hero does the right things for the wrong reasons. Would you still root for the hero?

In one case, yes:

:belkar:"Wow she really does not like litterbugs"

And the Belkster continues to bring the goods!
:biggrin:
(Not changing my nod yet, but if Redcloak-free strips continue....?)


...never seen 24.....
Consider yourself blessed. My wife was a big 24 fan, I am.....not.

....I also think that "the GODDAMN Batman" is goddamn travesty.Not that I have any cred left, but to further diminish it I confess that I never read much of any Frank Miller beyond some of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, so GODDAMN Batman is unknown to me.

[alwaysbebatman]

That one's Alan Moore. The Watchmen guy. He also did Killing Joke. Miller is best known for reinventing Daredevil, the bookends of the Batman saga (Batman: Year One and The Dark Knight Returns) and more recently for Sin City and 300.

Knowing is half the battle!

[2D8HP]

That one's Alan Moore....

....Knowing is half the battle!


And that there's the end of any of my cred...

:frown:

Did I mention that I met William Shatner, Patrick Troughton, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock as well as (just barely) played D&D in the 70's?

I did already?

:redface:

Yeah epic fail on "What have you done lately".

Oh wait! "Knowing is half the battle", I used to watch G.I. Joe right before Robotech!

Anything?

(Please help an old man out!)

[alwaysbebatman]

And that there's the end of any of my cred...

:frown:

Did I mention that I met William Shatner, Patrick Troughton, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock as well as (just barely) played D&D in the 70's?

I did already?

:redface:

Yeah epic fail on "What have you done lately".

Oh wait! "Knowing is half the battle", I used to watch G.I. Joe right before Robotech!

Anything?

(Please help an old man out!)


Haha! Nothing wrong with not being into superhero comics. I love 'em, (clearly,) but they're not for everybody.

[Svata]

Robotech!

*twitches* gyeh!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I still can't decide. Guess I'm abstaining, I'm fine w/ either winning. I think Redcloak's a better character, but Belkar's been on a tear lately, and I feel like by the end of the story, I'll like Belkar more than Redcloak.


Consider yourself blessed. My wife was a big 24 fan, I am.....not.
I greatly miss Burn Notice for many reasons. One of them were the various times BN specifically took a dump on 24's view of the use of torture for interrogations.

[Manty5]

Redcloak for now, but I think Belkar's end will be better than Redcloak's.

Reason? Belkar was a straight line of one dimension. He's not much more deep now, but the line is twisting and turning so it's hard to tell where it'll end up.

Redcloak is the opposite. He's very much the unexpected villain, trope-breaker I name thee.

[alwaysbebatman]

I verified via PM with Manty5 that they are voting for Redcloak. That makes it 36/31 Redcloak. About 24 hours left.

[CrimsonMage]

Is Redcloak a more dynamic and interesting character? Eh, probably. It's hard to say where Belkar's narrative is going and whether it's going to be as interesting or complex, but Redcloak probably wins on that count.

But I simply enjoy reading about Belkar more. I'm more interested in his interesting moments, whether or not they're strictly better than Redcloak's. I have greater hopes that things turn out okay for him. And he's just a more enjoyable and funny character. So I have to vote for Belkar here. I don't know if he's "better," but I like him more.

[Darth Paul]

I greatly miss Burn Notice for many reasons. One of them were the various times BN specifically took a dump on 24's view of the use of torture for interrogations.

Burn Notice called out so many of (bad) fiction's conventions, it's impossible to list them all. Plus, of course, Bruce Campbell was SO awesome.

[Liquor Box]

At the end of the day, one could argue about their respective storylines/arcs. Whether they break the mold of their respective hero/villian trope by being an anti-hero/sympathetic villain or whether that is just an overused trope in an of itself. But what I think is inarguable is that Belkar is by far the funnier character, in fact the funniest character - he gets a joke nearly every strip he's in. It may be a losing cause at this stage, but I vote Belkar Bitterleaf as I have in every contest he's been in.

[Peelee]

But what I think is inarguable is that Belkar is by far the funnier character, in fact the funniest character

Fun fact: I'd argue that.

[alwaysbebatman]

It may be a losing cause at this stage, but I vote Belkar Bitterleaf as I have in every contest he's been in.

I wouldn't say so-- only a three-point margin now...

[Liquor Box]

Fun fact: I'd argue that.
You can't. It's a fact

[Deliverance]

Quality beats quantity: Redcloak for the win!

[Goblin_Priest]

Redcloak for now, but I think Belkar's end will be better than Redcloak's.

Reason? Belkar was a straight line of one dimension. He's not much more deep now, but the line is twisting and turning so it's hard to tell where it'll end up.

Redcloak is the opposite. He's very much the unexpected villain, trope-breaker I name thee.

We know Belkar will die. It seems fairly safe to assume it'll involve some redeeming heroic sacrifice. I don't really feel anxious to actually see it happen, it feels meaningless by it's expected meaningfulness.

Redcloak? He's so invested in the Plan, there's so many moving parts... Will he succeed? He might succeed, and the result might be unexpected, given how little we know of the Dark One and his plan. He might fail... but how? Why? Will the Plan fail, but somehow succeed in another way (him obtaining peace for his people without completing the ritual)? Will it utterly fail, with Xykon destroying his people? Will it fail, with Xykon also destroyed, and no gain for his people? What's in the astral fortress, is it the real phylactery or the fake one? If the fake, where's the real? What will be done with it?

Team Evil has so many conflicting interests and deceit, I find the story to be much more thrilling than the main "we are the good guys, we'll fight the bad guys, and we'll win in the end".

Belkar's prophecy feels like a spoiler. Makes his "character development" feel like a trope to make his death more meaningful, which, to me, cheapens it. Team Evil, though, offers a much more compelling story. They get enough showtime to make us understand their efforts, motivations, and challenges more than in a typical story, which I greatly appreciate. Makes them more than just generic "bad guys" for the good guys to defeat. Also means that they had enough show time to add the possibility of them being defeated by other means than a direct fight with the heroes.

I wonder if Oona has a worthwhile background story? :P

[Hamste]

You can't. It's a fact

Sure you can argue facts. People do it all the time.

[Kish]

I think lots of people would argue that Belkar isn't funny at all, or is only funny when the joke is on him.

"He gets a joke in nearly every strip he's in" only matters if there's universal agreement that all his jokes are funny--which is nowhere near being the case. If you mean "the more humor-oriented character," say that.

[Peelee]

You can't. It's a fact

Note to self: Liquor Box's opinions are now apparently facts.

[The Pilgrim]

This is a great day for the vertically challenged people. Whoever wins, it will be a midget.

That said, Redcloak for the win. Because the Villiain is always more interesting than the Hero.

[Dienekes]

Hmm, I guess I'd go with Belkar. Both interesting characters, but honestly, Belkar using Bloodfeast to save the two bounty hunters, and his brief discussion talk about why the rest of the OotS keep him around for hurting people were more poignant than anything Redcloak has done. Redcloak for all his deviousness and theoretically noble intentions is really just a petty hypocrite.

[jidasfire]

Both good characters, but only one rides a T-rex through a mass of carnage while laughing with his kitty. So Belkar it is.

[alwaysbebatman]

Redcloak still has a 3-point lead. 38/33. ETA I mean 38/35.

[ironkid]

Redcloak

let's summon some Plutonium elementals 4 the win!!! :redcloak::redcloak::redcloak:

Interestlingly, I don't either contestant getting a perfect happy ending at the end of story, but if they were perfect, they wouldn't be so loved, would they???

[Chei]

Redcloak still has a 3-point lead. 38/33.

That's... not a 3-point lead.

[alwaysbebatman]

Thank you! The margin was correct, but Belkar's score had a typo. 39/35 Redcloak now.

[martianmister]

When will this end? I'm confused. :smallconfused:

[137beth]

When will this end? I'm confused. :smallconfused:

Didn’t you hear? Belkar will draw his last breath ever before the end of the year, thereby granting the win to Redcloak.

[alwaysbebatman]

Today's the last day. Automatically closing at 4:59 PM California, 7:59 PM NY, 11:59 PM London.

[Laurana]

Redcloak winning this will be as disappointing as strip #830 winning that other contest. Very.

[Potatomade]

Come on, O-Chul people! Do you really want the guy who just barely edged out our favorite to win this thing? At least make the bugger sweat for it!

[Chei]

Come on, O-Chul people! Do you really want the guy who just barely edged out our favorite to win this thing? At least make the bugger sweat for it!

... Yes? The one who edged out my favorite had better come out on top. A vote for Belkar =/= a vote for O-Chul.

Edit: Did I even vote for O-Chul over Redcloak? I don't think I did. Either way, they're both good. For certain definitions of 'good'.

[Potatomade]

... Yes? The one who edged out my favorite had better come out on top.

No! Redcloak's victory over O-Chul must be punished by losing to a far greater evil!

Petty vengeance! That's what O-Chul fans want, right?

...right?

[Chei]

No! Redcloak's victory over O-Chul must be punished by losing to a far greater evil!

Petty vengeance! That's what O-Chul fans want, right?

...right?

Hahaha. Your argument will definitely compel the Belkar fans, at least. But the Redcloak fans have come too far to give up now. If Redcloak loses, everything they've done would have been for nothing.

[Jasdoif]

Did I even vote for O-Chul over Redcloak?You did not.


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Bobb2goodpeople25
Chobarth3Grey_Wolf_c3drazen
Fincher4
:smalleek:4Kish
Laurana5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smalleek:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smalleek:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smalleek:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smalleek:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smalleek:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smalleek:15Chei
blademan999916
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smalleek:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smalleek:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smalleek:23Svata
Johanz24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw
The1exile25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion
grandpheonix26
:smalleek:26137ben
GuySmiley197027
:smalleek:27Dushara
Darth Paul28
:smalleek:28elros
-D-29
:smalleek:29Synesthesy
Elkad30
:smalleek:30Floret
Peat31
:smalleek:31TheStargazer
CrimsonMage32
:smalleek:32Sylian
Liquor Box33
:smalleek:33L8r
Dienekes34
:smalleek:34StragaSevera
jidasfire35
:smalleek:35Second Arrow

:smalleek:36
:smalleek:36Manty5

:smalleek:37
:smalleek:37Deliverance

:smalleek:38
:smalleek:38The Pilgrim

:smalleek:39
:smalleek:39ironkid

[RicB76]

Bitterleaf for the win! Redcloaks a dope, he's no hope and getting smoked....and so on.

[Liquor Box]

I think lots of people would argue that Belkar isn't funny at all, or is only funny when the joke is on him.

"He gets a joke in nearly every strip he's in" only matters if there's universal agreement that all his jokes are funny--which is nowhere near being the case. If you mean "the more humor-oriented character," say that.

Obviously I was only kidding when I told Pelee that Belkar being the funniest is a fact.

I think he is the funniest and it seems that many others (probably the majority) do to. Obviously it's not unanimous, but I think that's a bit of an unrealistic threshold - I doubt there's a character in the strip who is universally agreed (by posters) to be funny.

That Belkar gets a lot of jokes suggests two things. First, it implies that the Giant thinks he is consistently funny, or at least thinks his readers find him consistently funny. Second, for those who do find him consistently funny (most of us I think), we get a lot of the humour we like - while those that find Redcloak funny get much less mileage from him.

[Potatomade]

Did I even vote for O-Chul over Redcloak? I don't think I did.


You did not.

Chei!! Accursed nonbeliever! It was YOU all along! We lost because of your vote!

[Lastofthemany]

Is this over? Hope not.
My vote: Belkar.
This discussion of who the more interesting or well developed or funny character is is pointless. None of those are at issue here. I agree Redcloak is more developed, but that makes no difference. My favorite character is Belkar. Period. Though I'd say Redcloak moved up several slots after the Azure City storyline.

[Anukan]

Sexy shoeless god of war! Belkar.

[Bobb]

Switching from o chul to belkar for maximum drama.

[Elanorea]

Redcloak for me

[littlebum2002]

Ugh all we need is 1 more vote to tie it up!

[alwaysbebatman]

Bobb's switch momentarily tied it up.

39/38 Redcloak. Just under two hours to go!

[Jasdoif]

Bobb's switch momentarily tied it up.

39/38 Redcloak. Just under two hours to go!Not quite....Bobb's prior vote wasn't for Redcloak, so Redcloak didn't go down. It's unclear whether abandoning the Peelean Freethinking Forward Team yields the enmity, undying or otherwise, of draconic Alabamians or not.


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Grey_Wolf_c2goodpeople25
Chobarth3
:smalleek:3drazen
Fincher4
:smalleek:4Kish
Laurana5
:smalleek:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smalleek:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smalleek:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smalleek:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smalleek:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smalleek:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smalleek:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smalleek:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smalleek:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smalleek:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smalleek:15Chei
blademan999916
:smalleek:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smalleek:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smalleek:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smalleek:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smalleek:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smalleek:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smalleek:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smalleek:23Svata
Johanz24
:smalleek:24Bluepaw
The1exile25
:smalleek:25B. Dandelion
grandpheonix26
:smalleek:26137ben
GuySmiley197027
:smalleek:27Dushara
Darth Paul28
:smalleek:28elros
-D-29
:smalleek:29Synesthesy
Elkad30
:smalleek:30Floret
Peat31
:smalleek:31TheStargazer
CrimsonMage32
:smalleek:32Sylian
Liquor Box33
:smalleek:33L8r
Dienekes34
:smalleek:34StragaSevera
jidasfire35
:smalleek:35Second Arrow
Lastofthemany36
:smalleek:36Manty5
Anukan37
:smalleek:37Deliverance
Bobb38
:smalleek:38The Pilgrim

:smalleek:39
:smalleek:39ironkid

:smalleek:40
:smalleek:40Elanorea

[GimpNugs]

I hope I'm still in time. If not, sorry.

Belkar Bitterleaf

[Hamste]

Just need one vote for Belkar to tie. Lets get the 5th seed into 1st place. Only 22 minutes left I think.

[Chei]

Is it too late for Redcloak to make a premature villain gloat?

[Potatomade]

My count may be wrong, and not all of the ones I counted may be "official" votes, but if I am correct, we're actually in sudden death right now.

sour grapes?

I already voted for Belkar earlier, but I dunno how the sudden death rules work. I will edit this post to sour grapes if it turns out I was wrong and Redcloak won.

Because as of Jasdoif's 2nd to last vote-count-thingy, Belkar was down by 4, and then got 5 votes: RicB76, Lastofthemany, Anukan, Bobb, and GimpNugs. Redcloak only got 1, so that's sudden death. The validity of RicB76's post as a Belkar vote is the only question, I think, but please oh please please please let it count.

[alwaysbebatman]

Ignore everything I said in this post....

[Jasdoif]

My count may be wrong, and not all of the ones I counted may be "official" votes, but if I am correct, we're actually in sudden death right now.

Belkar

I already voted for Belkar earlier, but I dunno how the sudden death rules work. I will edit this post to sour grapes if it turns out I was wrong and Redcloak won.

Because as of Jasdoif's 2nd to last vote-count-thingy, Belkar was down by 4, and then got 5 votes: RicB76, Lastofthemany, Anukan, Bobb, and GimpNugs. Redcloak only got 1, so that's sudden death. The validity of RicB76's post as a Belkar vote is the only question, I think, but please oh please please please let it count.Hmm. I missed RicB76's post voting for Belkar, so that would put it at a tie....

...however, you already voted.

[Potatomade]

...I'm so confused :smallfrown:

[alwaysbebatman]

Wait, seriously? It's sudden death in the final? Damn!

First unique voter who hasn't already voted in this poll determines the overall winner of the tournament!!

Somebody break the tie!

[Jasdoif]

...I'm so confused :smallfrown:Sudden death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_death_(sport)) means the deadline is extended until there's a winner. The other rules still apply, including that each person (ie you) is allotted one vote. Since you already voted for Belkar, you are not allowed to do so again.

[Potatomade]

Sudden death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_death_(sport)) means the deadline is extended until there's a winner. The other rules still apply, including that each person (ie you) is allotted one vote. Since you already voted for Belkar, you are not allowed to do so again.

Oh yeah, I got that part. I was confused about whether Redcloak had won or not, before alwaysbebatman (possibly only temporarily) retracted Redcloak's win.

COME ON O-CHUL PEOPLE!! Let's have our revenge!

[The Blackbird]

Just like last time I'll be voting for my favorite villain Redcloak again.

[alwaysbebatman]

Jasdoif? Can you confirm that The Blackbird is a unique voter, eligible to break this tie?

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif? Can you confirm that The Blackbird is a unique voter, eligible to break this tie?That's The Blackbird's first/only post in this thread.

[Bobb]

Jasdoif? Can you confirm that The Blackbird is a unique voter, eligible to break this tie?

I mean, he's not on the list of current votes for Redcloak so, yeah probably.

[martianmister]

So, is it over then?

[Fincher]

Aw. Well, Belkar put up a good fight.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yep, that's the tie-breaker.

VOTING IS CLOSED

REDCLOAK IS CHAMPION!!!

[grandpheonix]

Boooooooo. Recount! Jkjk all the little wrappers voting for redcloak... there's always next year :D

[Potatomade]

Noooooooo!!! Why!?! We were... so... very... close....

[Bobb]

Good game!

O-Chul for life! :smallbiggrin:

[Liquor Box]

Yep, that's the tie-breaker.

VOTING IS CLOSED

REDCLOAK IS CHAMPION!!!

Hadn't Redcloak already won?

Jasdoif said

"Hmm. I missed RicB76's post voting for Belkar, so that would put it at a tie....

...however, you already voted."

So it would have put it at a tie had potatomade not double voted.

I thought I saw a post from you indicating Reddy as the winner too - but now I cannot find it.

[alwaysbebatman]

It's pretty crazy just how close that was.

[NamonakiRei]

Yay!
I think this was the first contest that went to sudden death right?

[Jasdoif]

Hadn't Redcloak already won?

Jasdoif said

"Hmm. I missed RicB76's post voting for Belkar, so that would put it at a tie....

...however, you already voted."

So it would have put it at a tie had potatomade not double voted.

I thought I saw a post from you indicating Reddy as the winner too - but now I cannot find it. Potatomade had voted all the way back on page one; meaning a repeat vote to break sudden death wasn't valid. I did in fact miss RicB76's vote, so there was a tie in action. (I'm assuming alwaysbebatman missed that post too, hence removing the winner declaration that was there shortly before I made that post).

For the record, I double-checked and the outcome stands:


Belkar#Peelean
Freethinking
Forward
Team#Redcloak
Euclidodese1Peelee1Goblin_Priest
Potatomade2Grey_Wolf_c2goodpeople25
Chobarth3
:smallfrown:3drazen
Fincher4
:smallfrown:4Kish
Laurana5
:smallfrown:5martianmister
Bob_McSurly6
:smallfrown:6The Curt Jester
Riftwolf7
:smallfrown:7Ruck
Hamste8
:smallfrown:8NamonakiRei
Rack9
:smallfrown:9lothos
Dr.Zero10
:smallfrown:10Jaxzan Proditor
KorvinStarmast11
:smallfrown:11Arkku
aurilee12
:smallfrown:122D8HP
Ornithologist13
:smallfrown:13white lancer
littlebum200214
:smallfrown:14Amazon
Gift Jeraff15
:smallfrown:15Chei
blademan999916
:smallfrown:16The Aboleth
Rogan17
:smallfrown:17Joerg
Rasputin18
:smallfrown:18LadyEowyn
Thedoctorking19
:smallfrown:19hroþila
h0m3st4r20
:smallfrown:20Legato Endless
RatElemental21
:smallfrown:21Nathan5
alwaysbebatman22
:smallfrown:22Mandor
TheBeggarDwarf23
:smallfrown:23Svata
Johanz24
:smallfrown:24Bluepaw
The1exile25
:smallfrown:25B. Dandelion
grandpheonix26
:smallfrown:26137ben
GuySmiley197027
:smallfrown:27Dushara
Darth Paul28
:smallfrown:28elros
-D-29
:smallfrown:29Synesthesy
Elkad30
:smallfrown:30Floret
Peat31
:smallfrown:31TheStargazer
CrimsonMage32
:smallfrown:32Sylian
Liquor Box33
:smallfrown:33L8r
Dienekes34
:smallfrown:34StragaSevera
jidasfire35
:smallfrown:35Second Arrow
RicB7636
:smallfrown:36Manty5
Lastofthemany37
:smallfrown:37Deliverance
Anukan38
:smallfrown:38The Pilgrim
Bobb39
:smallannoyed:39ironkid
GimpNugs40
:smallfrown:40Elanorea

:smallfurious:41
:smallfrown:41The Blackbird

[alwaysbebatman]

Hadn't Redcloak already won?

Jasdoif said

"Hmm. I missed RicB76's post voting for Belkar, so that would put it at a tie....

...however, you already voted."

So it would have put it at a tie had potatomade not double voted.

I thought I saw a post from you indicating Reddy as the winner too - but now I cannot find it.

Yeah, I deleted it because of an error. Jasdoif and I each made a separate error, which made it double confusing.

Bobb said he "changed his vote to Belkar." I assumed that meant from Redcloak to Belkar, which would have made it a tie.

Potatomade misunderstood Sudden Death and tried to break the tie. I explained that someone new has to vote to break the tie.

Jasdoif clarified to me that Bobb had NOT voted for Redcloak, so Redcloak was in the lead at the expiration of time, so I announced Redcloak as the winner.

Then Jasdoif discovered a Belkar vote he had missed, so it was a tie after all. I deleted the REDCLOAK WINS post and announced Sudden Death.

Then a new voter voted for Redcloak, so I announced Redcloak as winner all over again.

Sorry about the confusion, but still... what a fun tournament!!

[Peelee]

Hadn't Redcloak already won?

Jasdoif said

"Hmm. I missed RicB76's post voting for Belkar, so that would put it at a tie....

...however, you already voted."

So it would have put it at a tie had potatomade not double voted.

I thought I saw a post from you indicating Reddy as the winner too - but now I cannot find it.

Potatomade misunderstood how the sudden death worked; they thought that any votes after, even if one had already voted, would result in victory, while only a new vote would do it.

[Goblin_Priest]

Damn. RC was leading by a few points the whole time, surprise sudden death ending!

[Manty5]

That's ok. I'm sure that Belkar would agree that sudden death endings are the BEST endings.

Redcloak on the other hand probably likes both deaths and endings to be properly scheduled and delivered on time.