Strongest Monk 20 (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

As the title says, I'm trying to make the strongest Monk 20 possible, using any first-party sources. The goal is to make a Monk which is the most powerful (both in and out of combat) not just at 20th level, but from bottom to top. ACFs and Monk Variants are allowed.

My first thought is that you'd probably be looking at one of three variant classes:
Wild Monk (Wild Shape, slightly delayed vs Druid) - Dragon Magazine #324, page 97
Chaos Monk (much better Flurry) - Dragon Magazine #335, page 89
Sidewinder Monk (1d6 Sneak Attack every 3 levels; bonus to Bluff) - Dragon Magazine #331, page 89

Any thoughts?

[Venger]

the warforged that overcame tippy's trial is probably the best you can get without using 3rd party junk. I'll see if I can scare up a link

[Goaty14]

Martial Monk: Any fighter bonus feat at 1,2,6 (you DON'T have to meet the preque) -1 Skill Point per level, Knowledges are removed from your skill list.
In the same Dragon Mag there are other Monk ACFs that emulate other classes class features.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Invisible Fist is amazing. I do not know what those other cost so I am not sure it is compatible with the other options.

[Menzath]

the warforged that overcame tippy's trial is probably the best you can get without using 3rd party junk. I'll see if I can scare up a link


Good luck with that, I haven't been able to find it.

If I recall correctly it's selling point was that it made use of the training dummy from arms and equipment guide and some other weirdness to get hardness, was it a golem graft arm? I dunno something odd.

I remember another challenge on here where someone was a monk/drunken master/hulking hurler/lion totem barbarian/warblade/bloodstorm blade. It won that by pounce power throwing an adamantine bowling ball.
I know monks aren't known for thrown weapons often, but it's also highly overlooked. Now how you can make a monk 20 compete, I have no ideas on that.

[SirNibbles]

Invisible Fist is amazing. I do not know what those other cost so I am not sure it is compatible with the other options.

The ones I listed are Variants, not ACFs. They all get Evasion at 2nd level/Improved Evasion at 9th so you can safely trade that for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil, page 21). Unfortunately, you can't choose both Invisible Fist and Feign Death (as they both sacrifice Evasion).

_


Martial Monk: Any fighter bonus feat at 1,2,6 (you DON'T have to meet the preque) -1 Skill Point per level, Knowledges are removed from your skill list.
In the same Dragon Mag there are other Monk ACFs that emulate other classes class features.

Martial Monk is definitely a good choice. Which 3 feats would you take with that freedom of choice?

[Zombulian]

The ones I listed are Variants, not ACFs. They all get Evasion at 2nd level/Improved Evasion at 9th so you can safely trade that for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil, page 21). Unfortunately, you can't choose both Invisible Fist and Feign Death (as they both sacrifice Evasion).

_



Martial Monk is definitely a good choice. Which 3 feats would you take with that freedom of choice?

Greater Manyshot and Weapon Supremacy spring to mind.

[Gruftzwerg]

I assume no PRCs?

____________

Martial Study: Tiger Leap (mainly as prerequisite for Martial Stance, but also nice mobility ability to compensate possible full attack loss due to distance)
Martial Stance: Blood in the Water
TWF feat chain

Blood in the Water gives you a stacking (!) +1 to Hit and Dmg for every crit. The stacks remain for a single minute but the duration is always refreshed for all stacks with each new crit.

Now get Unorthodox Flurry and two +5 keen speed Kukris (15-20 crit; +1 extra attack at highest BaB = haste)

our BaB with hasted/speeded full flurry twf attack routine:

Main-Hand: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Off-Hand: +13/+13/+8/+3

Take all your +13 attacks (main & offhand) first, so that your iterative attacks profit from possible crits and their toHit bonuses.

The longer the fight takes, more crits occur and increase your "toHit" and "dmg". Sooner or later all attacks will hit and speed up the snowballing effect to max.

Get Greater Truedeath and Demolition Weapon Crystals for your Kukri against crit immune enemies.

Add Combat Reflexes and Roland's Gambit/Karmic Strike if you can effort the feats (Human + Martial Monk for Fighter feats) to further increase the snowball effect.

Belt of Battle:
You need this for the lacking pounce ability in the build. Otherwise you'll waste to many attacks and possible crit stacks with the lost full attack when you move.
Buy a bunch of these, depending on the amount of combat per day you have.
And if you want to go silly, equip all of em "ordered" at the same time. Only the first equipped will function, but that's what we aim for. Remember the order and once you used up the first, just untie it as free action to have the next rdy^^. I suggest to make the Belts of Battle of a light to wear material like silk, so that the DM can't argue that it wouldn't fit your belly when you stack em up^^.

edit:
and if Legacy Weapons are on the table, "Tiger Fang" is a nice Kukri.

[SirNibbles]

I assume no PRCs?

____________

Martial Study: Tiger Leap (mainly as prerequisite for Martial Stance, but also nice mobility ability to compensate possible full attack loss due to distance)
Martial Stance: Blood in the Water
TWF feat chain

Blood in the Water gives you a stacking (!) +1 to Hit and Dmg for every crit. The stacks remain for a single minute but the duration is always refreshed for all stacks with each new crit.

Now get Unorthodox Flurry and two +5 keen speed Kukris (15-20 crit; +1 extra attack at highest BaB = haste)

our BaB with hasted/speeded full flurry twf attack routine:

Main-Hand: +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Off-Hand: +13/+13/+8/+3

Take all your +13 attacks (main & offhand) first, so that your iterative attacks profit from possible crits and their toHit bonuses.

The longer the fight takes, more crits occur and increase your "toHit" and "dmg". Sooner or later all attacks will hit and speed up the snowballing effect to max.

Get Greater Truedeath and Demolition Weapon Crystals for your Kukri against crit immune enemies.

Add Combat Reflexes and Roland's Gambit/Karmic Strike if you can effort the feats (Human + Martial Monk for Fighter feats) to further increase the snowball effect.

Belt of Battle:
You need this for the lacking pounce ability in the build. Otherwise you'll waste to many attacks and possible crit stacks with the lost full attack when you move.
Buy a bunch of these, depending on the amount of combat per day you have.
And if you want to go silly, equip all of em "ordered" at the same time. Only the first equipped will function, but that's what we aim for. Remember the order and once you used up the first, just untie it as free action to have the next rdy^^. I suggest to make the Belts of Battle of a light to wear material like silk, so that the DM can't argue that it wouldn't fit your belly when you stack em up^^.

edit:
and if Legacy Weapons are on the table, "Tiger Fang" is a nice Kukri.

You are correct, no PrCs- just pure Monk.

__

The Holy Monk ACF(Dragon Magazine #310, page 45) may have a solution to not having Pounce. It trades your 1st and 6th level bonus feats for Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, and, most importantly of all, Turn Undead. This means that the Monk can pick up Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) to move as a swift action for 10 rounds, twice a day (assuming 7-11 Charisma). Nightsticks and other methods of getting more Turn Undead uses mean you can use Travel Devotion even more. Unfortunately, the loss of two (fighter) feats hurts a bit.

[Gruftzwerg]

You are correct, no PrCs- just pure Monk.

__

The Holy Monk ACF(Dragon Magazine #310, page 45) may have a solution to not having Pounce. It trades your 1st and 6th level bonus feats for Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, and, most importantly of all, Turn Undead. This means that the Monk can pick up Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) to move as a swift action for 10 rounds, twice a day (assuming 7-11 Charisma). Nightsticks and other methods of getting more Turn Undead uses mean you can use Travel Devotion even more. Unfortunately, the loss of two (fighter) feats hurts a bit.

Oh wasn't aware of that one. Looks nice.

But I would still prefer the Belts of Battle, since I value builds resources (feats, abilities..) more than gold.

And if you add a few swift teleport items on top (e.g. Anklet of Translocation -Hint: you can abuse the same mechanism as with the multiple belts, if you get that passed by your DM^^) you should be fine for most encounters. And not to forget the single Tiger Leap use per encounter (makes this otherwise wasted feat at least a bit useful).

Imho the investment into Holy Monk wouldn't pay off enough for this build and that Martial Monk does the job better with the fighter feats.

[Rebel7284]

The strongest monk will likely be using Dark Moon Disciple Substitution Levels.

Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other
than full daylight, a 7th-level Dark Moon Disciple can
disappear into the shadows, gaining total concealment.
Artificial light does not negate this ability, though a
daylight spell does.
This benefit replaces the wholeness of body class
feature that the standard monk gains at 7th level.

[Eldariel]

I mean, start with Invisible Fist [Exemplars of Evil] & Shadow Blend [Dark Moon Disciple - CoV Web (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)] and you're already looking at a great shell. Add some way to enhance your size (Greater Mighty Wallop is pretty great, though hard to get endogenously without custom items - Fanged Ring and Improved Natural Attack and such are beyond obvious; Person Man's Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach) is fairly comprehensive). There's also the Mantis Leap feat in Sword & Fist and you can Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws for full attack on each charge. It can get pretty busted (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10296.0). This is Rubik's build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732) at Tippy's - uses various cool tricks. For example the fact that your whole body can be treated as a weapon and thus gets Hardness/HP/Saves out of being enchanted as an item.

You can get constant invisibilities early on, high hide & move silently combined with shadow blend, blinking and then there's the huge damage dice on the UA strike and charge full attacks out of everywhere. Then there's the whole world of Wild Monk/Chaos Monk/Martial Monk, which are all solid. Wild Monk the best of the pack - if well-built I'd say you could reach very high T3ish power with Wildshape Aberration/Dragon form abuse. Wild Monk is probably the best of the pack but Martial Monk's ability to pick Weapon Supremacy on level 1 shouldn't be underestimated either and it definitely makes your early game far superior; Monk is as bad as non-Chicken Infested Commoner on level 1, though Invisible Fist is a huge shot in the arm on level 2. Wild Monk is conveniently compatible with both, Invisible Fist and Dark Moon Disciple so you're good to go. Sadly Chaos Monk clashes with both, Wild Monk and Dark Moon Disciple at one point so you can't tack it in on it. Martial Monk uses the feats that Wild Monk gives up which is a bit sad - but ultimately Wild Monk is probably the stronger of the two on 20 (a different matter on level 2).

[JustIgnoreMe]

Good luck with that, I haven't been able to find it.

Here you go!

Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

[emeraldstreak]

Sidewinder Monk (1d6 Sneak Attack every 3 levels; bonus to Bluff) - Dragon Magazine #331, page 89


That's peanuts. There's a variety of good 1st party Monk 20 builds, but any will do a minimum of 12d8 base damage per strike.

[Gruftzwerg]

Add some way to enhance your size (Greater Mighty Wallop is pretty great, though hard to get endogenously without custom items - Fanged Ring and Improved Natural Attack and such are beyond obvious; Person Man's Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127732-3-X-Increasing-Size-Effective-Size-Unarmed-Damage-Reach) is fairly comprehensive).

GMW (on max CLVL) as custom item is hard to get passed by most DMs and expensive too.

INA is a wasted feat for PC. Cause a simple Necklace of Natural Attacks with Sizing can bring your unarmed attacks to colossal size (for a -8 toHit penalty). If you add INA, it only lessens the penalty by one step (-2 toHit). There is no size beyond colossal (besides from some dragons who may get to colossal+, but that is just an exception for them and no one else.) and thus it becomes more or less useless when you can hit colossal otherwise (like with Sizing). And not to mention that normally size effects don't stack. They either overlap or cancel each other out.

[emeraldstreak]

GMW (on max CLVL) as custom item is hard to get passed by most DMs and expensive too.

INA is a wasted feat for PC. Cause a simple Necklace of Natural Attacks with Sizing can bring your unarmed attacks to colossal size (for a -8 toHit penalty). If you add INA, it only lessens the penalty by one step (-2 toHit). There is no size beyond colossal (besides from some dragons who may get to colossal+, but that is just an exception for them and no one else.) and thus it becomes more or less useless when you can hit colossal otherwise (like with Sizing). And not to mention that normally size effects don't stack. They either overlap or cancel each other out.

We've already been over this and there are enough things that stack.

The problem is with the table going only to 12d8. Granted, it contradicts the RAW of the MM, so either the DMG RAW or the MM RAW has to be violated.

[Menzath]

Here you go!


Hurray!
And the people rejoiced. And cake was had.

[Ivanhoe]

[/url]. This is Rubik's build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732) at Tippy's - uses various cool tricks. For example the fact that your whole body can be treated as a weapon and thus gets Hardness/HP/Saves out of being enchanted as an item..

Rubik's build has many nice ideas, but 1) is not a level 20 monk (see OP) and 2) the whole body of the monk is not considered a weapon. SRD: "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full." There is no reference to unarmed strike being the whole body. So, that (likely key) part of the build is illegal.

Otherwise, good ideas for a monk build!

[SirNibbles]

That's peanuts. There's a variety of good 1st party Monk 20 builds, but any will do a minimum of 12d8 base damage per strike.

An extra 6d6 per hit on top of that doesn't hurt. At low levels it nearly doubles your damage and you're not losing any useful features compared to the PHB Monk.

___

A method of getting AOE attacks may be very useful if you are using Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm, page idk I'm on my phone).

[emeraldstreak]

An extra 6d6 per hit on top of that doesn't hurt. At low levels it nearly doubles your damage and you're not losing any useful features compared to the PHB Monk.


That's fine but it shouldn't distract you from the main theme which is unarmed strike optimization. For example, adding Monk improves the top ubercharger builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21728122&postcount=78).

[Eldariel]

That's fine but it shouldn't distract you from the main theme which is unarmed strike optimization. For example, adding Monk improves the top ubercharger builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21728122&postcount=78).

You'll quickly get to the point where your damage doesn't really matter since you're one-shotting everything. But yeah, any level 20 PC can be built to do enough damage to one-shot anything in the game; it's more a matter of how big of a drain it is on character resources (and in the case of actual games, what sources you're working with and what's the DM judgment on any number of things).

[Mato]

it's more a matter of how big of a drain it is on character resourcesIt costs 900gp and a practically impossible to fail UMD check (you can keep trying again until you roll a natural 1) for a monk to deal 12d8 plus his strength modifier damage using his unarmed strike and he gets five attacks each round. So the investment here is less than a fighter's unenchanted nonmasterwork full-plate and, at ten intelligence, 0.02% of his skill points for a cross-class rank.

But I'm sure you'll love to make the point that not everyone has dragon magic think or smart players should not use wands. Just avoid saying greater mighty wallop is too broken in the hands of a monk because that'd imply the monk's unarmed damage is a little too powerful and I don't think you want to admit that. Maybe distract us with a wild shaped druid using venomfire because of course a full caster can do it better?

[Eldariel]

It costs 900gp and a practically impossible to fail UMD check (you can keep trying again until you roll a natural 1) for a monk to deal 12d8 plus his strength modifier damage using his unarmed strike and he gets five attacks each round. So the investment here is less than a fighter's unenchanted nonmasterwork full-plate and, at ten intelligence, 0.02% of his skill points for a cross-class rank.

But I'm sure you'll love to make the point that not everyone has dragon magic think or smart players should not use wands. Just avoid saying greater mighty wallop is too broken in the hands of a monk because that'd imply the monk's unarmed damage is a little too powerful and I don't think you want to admit that. Maybe distract us with a wild shaped druid using venomfire because of course a full caster can do it better?

12d8 doesn't equal one-shotting all level appropriate encounters, which is what I was talking about. Also costs 20 levels in a UA Strike improving class. And requires a CL20 Wand the character has no means of creating, and cross-class UMD to activate.

Sure, if such Wands are available in neighbouring stores and you are fine spending a charge per day for the rest of your career including days during which you don't even end up fighting, go ahead. That helps. Broad application is purely down to item availability though and even granting that, it's still cross-class UMD - what's stopping a Monk from just claiming a daily Shapechange Scroll and becoming Tier 1? I'd still argue lacking intrinsic access to said spells and relying on items produced by 17th+ level casters which you then proceed to UMD be less of a feature of the class - surely Monk can stand on its own (though yes, in TO land said item access should definitely be a granted - but I'm not sure that's really what we should buils this towards).

But yes, all that rambling was very classy.

[Ivanhoe]

12d8 doesn't equal one-shotting all level appropriate encounters, which is what I was talking about. Also costs 20 levels in a UA Strike improving class. And requires a CL20 Wand the character has no means of creating, and cross-class UMD to activate.

Sure, if such Wands are available in neighbouring stores and you are fine spending a charge per day for the rest of your career including days during which you don't even end up fighting, go ahead. That helps. Broad application is purely down to item availability though and even granting that, it's still cross-class UMD - what's stopping a Monk from just claiming a daily Shapechange Scroll and becoming Tier 1? I'd still argue lacking intrinsic access to said spells and relying on items produced by 17th+ level casters which you then proceed to UMD be less of a feature of the class - surely Monk can stand on its own (though yes, in TO land said item access should definitely be a granted - but I'm not sure that's really what we should buils this towards).

But yes, all that rambling was very classy.

Isn't it possible to just get an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop at CL 20? Or CL 12 would already be enough for most purposes, in particular when you can combine the gmw with other size increasing effects.
Such an item costs less than 50,000 gp, so should be easily available for a level 20 character.
Also, I think the argument that non-casters should not use high-level items is very strange.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can definitely create an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop. Still, it doesn't particularly help the monk. All that work increasing unarmed strike damage goes to waste when you pick up a greatclub (maybe with Three Mountains, it's pretty cool).

[Ivanhoe]

You can definitely create an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop. Still, it doesn't particularly help the monk. All that work increasing unarmed strike damage goes to waste when you pick up a greatclub (maybe with Three Mountains, it's pretty cool).

Really? What kind of damage can you get with a greatclub?

[Eldariel]

Isn't it possible to just get an eternal wand of greater mighty wallop at CL 20? Or CL 12 would already be enough for most purposes, in particular when you can combine the gmw with other size increasing effects.
Such an item costs less than 50,000 gp, so should be easily available for a level 20 character.
Also, I think the argument that non-casters should not use high-level items is very strange.

Oh, definitely but CL12 is much more reasonable than CL20, though not all settings have even CL12 casters producing items at any common level of availability (looking at Eberron, for instance) - thus I'd say it's reasonable but I wouldn't expect it to be automatic. For CL20 items to be available, a CL20 caster needs to exist and be willing to create them which is far from granted. And again, you should go far above 12d8 to truly be able to expect to one-round your average CR20 encounters in full attack which I'd consider baseline for efficiency. But yes, Eternal Wand at CL20 is the best option if you can score one.

As for Greatclub, Three Mountains is a style-feat, which forces Fort-save vs. Nausea with your Str modifier if you hit the same opponent twice in the round. Nice though Nausea isn't the optimal status for higher level play. Only notable weak prerequisite is Weapon Focus (the others are Improved Bull Rush which is nice for Shock Trooper anyways, and Cleave/Power Attack, one of which is a given and one reasonable), making it at least plausible if not automatic.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Really? What kind of damage can you get with a greatclub?
Uh, enough? It's a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, so it's getting both PA returns and GMW size increases. What kind of question is that, anyway?

(if greatclubs aren't cool enough, try the minotaur greathammer)

@Eldariel: Nausea is almost as strong as daze. It doesn't prevent move actions or non-spell free actions, but it blocks most things you care about, and only favour of the martyr grants immunity (that I could find on short notice--there's also druid 4 Iron Stomach ACF, but that's fairly specific). Three Mountains has the downside that it allows a Fortitude save, so undead and constructs are immune, but the effect is still really good (the prerequisites are costly, so it's only so-so overall).

[Eldariel]

Uh, enough? It's a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, so it's getting both PA returns and GMW size increases. What kind of question is that, anyway?

(if greatclubs aren't cool enough, try the minotaur greathammer)

@Eldariel: Nausea is almost as strong as daze. It doesn't prevent move actions or non-spell free actions, but it blocks most things you care about, and only favour of the martyr grants immunity (that I could find on short notice). Three Mountains has the downside that it allows a Fortitude save, so undead and constructs are immune, but the effect is still really good (the prerequisites are costly, so it's only so-so overall).

Huh. I never noticed that - very good point. I kinda just assumed they'd be immune but by RAW even creatures that don't eat or even have a digestive system (such as elementals and some outsiders) can be nauseated.

[emeraldstreak]

Uh, enough? It's a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, so it's getting both PA returns and GMW size increases. What kind of question is that, anyway?

(if greatclubs aren't cool enough, try the minotaur greathammer)

@Eldariel: Nausea is almost as strong as daze. It doesn't prevent move actions or non-spell free actions, but it blocks most things you care about, and only favour of the martyr grants immunity (that I could find on short notice--there's also druid 4 Iron Stomach ACF, but that's fairly specific). Three Mountains has the downside that it allows a Fortitude save, so undead and constructs are immune, but the effect is still really good (the prerequisites are costly, so it's only so-so overall).

Nausea is very good as arena players know, but it's naive to think a greatclub can catch up to unarmed strike. As for PA, it's possible to have both unarmed strike dice and PA, as you'd know if were able to understand the optimization of the top chargers and then the further optimization of adding unarmed strike to them.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nausea is very good as arena players know, but it's naive to think a greatclub can catch up to unarmed strike. As for PA, it's possible to have both unarmed strike dice and PA, as you'd know if were able to understand the optimization of the top chargers and then the further optimization of adding unarmed strike to them.
By all means, don't hold back on the condescension. Why bother actually talking to people when you can call them stupid? Especially when you fail to understand the original point...

For reference, this is the point: An eternal wand of GMW is a good investment, but it doesn't affect the relative strength of monk unarmed strikes and other weapons. A 1d8 unarmed strike is worse than a 1d10 greatclub. A 2d6 unarmed strike is better than a greatclub (assuming you can overcome the 2h/1h damage difference).


(incidentally, bite attacks are a valid target for GMW, which should be interesting on a hydra or something.)

[emeraldstreak]

For reference, this is the point: An eternal wand of GMW is a good investment, but it doesn't affect the relative strength of monk unarmed strikes and other weapons. A 1d8 unarmed strike is worse than a 1d10 greatclub. A 2d6 unarmed strike is better than a greatclub (assuming you can overcome the 2h/1h damage difference).


And eventually a 2d10 unarmed strike is better than any weapon. The 2h/1h power attack damage difference can be overcome in the way described in the ubercharger thread.

[SirNibbles]

Uh, enough? It's a two-handed bludgeoning weapon, so it's getting both PA returns and GMW size increases. What kind of question is that, anyway?

(if greatclubs aren't cool enough, try the minotaur greathammer)

@Eldariel: Nausea is almost as strong as daze. It doesn't prevent move actions or non-spell free actions, but it blocks most things you care about, and only favour of the martyr grants immunity (that I could find on short notice--there's also druid 4 Iron Stomach ACF, but that's fairly specific). Three Mountains has the downside that it allows a Fortitude save, so undead and constructs are immune, but the effect is still really good (the prerequisites are costly, so it's only so-so overall).

If I'm forcing a Fort save, I'd rather be using Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm, page 51) to do an AOE stun as part of an attack and then having Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, page 103) add on a round of Nauseated for free against all the enemies who were stunned by the AOE stun.

[Eldariel]

If I'm forcing a Fort save, I'd rather be using Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm, page 51) to do an AOE stun as part of an attack and then having Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, page 103) add on a round of Nauseated for free against all the enemies who were stunned by the AOE stun.

Fair, but resistance to stunning is significantly more common than to nausea: all of the construct/undead/plant/ooze/elemental line plus various cheap items that counter or negate it, and multiple spells. And the size consideration is kind of a bummer too. And if you have any access to shapechanging magic, Strength is much easier to buff skyhigh than Wis so Str-based saves are preferable too. This is not to say Stunning Fist doesn't have its uses but certainly, while harder to trigger, the effect from Three Mountains is much harder to resist/ignore. Though you should honestly be generally able to kill someone you're hitting multiple times in a turn on high levels.

[ExLibrisMortis]

And eventually a 2d10 unarmed strike is better than any weapon. The 2h/1h power attack damage difference can be overcome in the way described in the ubercharger thread.
Well, yeah. In TO, there's no better (other than the d2, of course :smallwink:). The oversized scorpion kama is a nice trick (turns you into a scythe-wielding monk, visually). The enchantment reverse-engineering trick is nice, too, but too close to homebrew to really appeal to me.


Though you should honestly be generally able to kill someone you're hitting multiple times in a turn on high levels.
Absolutely this, which is a natural limit on the usefulness of damage in PO, as well. As a niche use, I was thinking that Three Mountains could be a counter to Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike-style builds, as it outright prevents retaliation past the second attack. Not exactly a common occurence, but satisfying when it works :smalltongue:.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Rubik's build has many nice ideas, but 1) is not a level 20 monk (see OP) and 2) the whole body of the monk is not considered a weapon. SRD: "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full." There is no reference to unarmed strike being the whole body. So, that (likely key) part of the build is illegal.

Otherwise, good ideas for a monk build!Every part of a monk's body can be used, as the list isn't necessarily exhaustive. If there's a body part on a humanoid creature, some martial art has used it as a weapon at some point or other. Punches, kicks, clotheslines, shin-bashes, knees to the groin, hip-checks, body-slams, hip-drops, Mario's ground-pound, shoulder-checks, headbutts, blah blah blah. Since every part of the body has an offensive use, each of those parts would be affected by, say, metalline. Or ghost touch.

[emeraldstreak]

Well, yeah. In TO, there's no better (other than the d2, of course :smallwink:). The oversized scorpion kama is a nice trick (turns you into a scythe-wielding monk, visually). The enchantment reverse-engineering trick is nice, too, but too close to homebrew to really appeal to me.

Can't say it appeals to me either however the minmax build gleefully used reverse engineering of weapon enchants, as well as other dubious things. Earlier in that thread we discuss giantitp's own top ubercharger which is less cheesy. As for weapon dice, there might be a weapon that can challenge unarmed strike, but it's a bit of a longshot RAW-wise.

[Eldariel]

Can't say it appeals to me either however the minmax build gleefully used reverse engineering of weapon enchants, as well as other dubious things. Earlier in that thread we discuss giantitp's own top ubercharger which is less cheesy. As for weapon dice, there might be a weapon that can challenge unarmed strike, but it's a bit of a longshot RAW-wise.

Honestly, the biggest flaw of UA strike with regards to maxing damage is the lack of crit stats (and everything you can derive off them) and the massive level investment (which prevents getting some other class-based multipliers). Abusing that with some autocrit and x4 weapon might or might not yield results. Same with Kaorti Resin Falchions or whatever; 18-20/x4 base is pretty solid.

[emeraldstreak]

Honestly, the biggest flaw of UA strike with regards to maxing damage is the lack of crit stats (and everything you can derive off them) and the massive level investment (which prevents getting some other class-based multipliers). Abusing that with some autocrit and x4 weapon might or might not yield results. Same with Kaorti Resin Falchions or whatever; 18-20/x4 base is pretty solid.

On a sidenote, I'm not convinced there's no way for unarmed strike to assume weapon material qualities, and obviously the scorpion kama can, while retaining unarmed strike damage dice.

The thing with multipliers is that they ultimately are one side of a square, whose other side is the base damage being multiplied. And unarmed strike is really good at ballooning the base damage.

In my experience, the real issue with unarmed strike is its optimization is cost-intensive for low-to-mid level characters. We think of lvl 10 as halfway to lvl 20, but in WBL terms it isn't so. However, past the middle levels there's enough gold and in a thread named 'Strongest Monk 20' it's safe to assume the damage can be really high and other things have to be looked into: like defense, multiple actions/targets, etc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can't say it appeals to me either however the minmax build gleefully used reverse engineering of weapon enchants, as well as other dubious things. Earlier in that thread we discuss giantitp's own top ubercharger which is less cheesy. As for weapon dice, there might be a weapon that can challenge unarmed strike, but it's a bit of a longshot RAW-wise.
Yeah, I saw that, too.

When it comes to top weapon dice, there might be some spell effect that is a weapon, but I'm not sure any allow size increases (special materials/other effects are going to be problematic in any case), so I wouldn't expect much success in that direction. Alternatively, a Hulking Hurler Bloodstorm Blade can get any base damage die just by getting a bigger weapon, but that's kind of lame.

[SirNibbles]

To get away from hypotheticals and towards substantive builds, let's assign some stats (quite high, due to Monk's insane Multiple Attribute Dependency):
18/17/16/13/12/11

Rules:
-All 20 levels must be Monk/Monk Variant
-ACFs are allowed
-Substitution levels are allowed
-All 1st party sources are allowed
-Use standard WBL all the way through
-The build must be usable from 1st to 20th; gaps in power mean death, which means you won't reach Monk 20
-Keep cheese to a minimum (I'm looking at you, "my whole body is a weapon and so I can enchant it to have hardness" people)
-LA buyoff is allowed

[Malimar]

Every part of a monk's body can be used, as the list isn't necessarily exhaustive. If there's a body part on a humanoid creature, some martial art has used it as a weapon at some point or other. Punches, kicks, clotheslines, shin-bashes, knees to the groin, hip-checks, body-slams, hip-drops, Mario's ground-pound, shoulder-checks, headbutts, blah blah blah. Since every part of the body has an offensive use, each of those parts would be affected by, say, metalline. Or ghost touch.

Where in "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet." do you see language such as "such as" that would indicate the list is non-exhaustive?

[Gruftzwerg]

-Keep cheese to a minimum (I'm looking at you, "my whole body is a weapon and so I can enchant it to have hardness" people)



Where in "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet." do you see language such as "such as" that would indicate the list is non-exhaustive?

While the body parts that may be used for unarmed strikes can "arguably" be any part of his body, the cheese concept still won't work.

Monk's entire body != Monk/your character

What gets targeted is not the monk himself, it's his weapon (US) that gets the stats if you go strict RAW and would force to apply the rule.

The enemy doesn't attack the weapon (US /weapon body) of the monk normally, cause by default unarmed strikes (and Natural Attacks) can't be sundered in 3.5 (which is a good thing from the monks POV).
All you do by applying these rules (that imho are not meant to be applied to US and NA) to US is, that now your entire body is SUNDER-ABLE with ...
That is nor RAI nor RAW, just only a straight up stupid assumption..
Your US didn't have any HP so far and now has only the bonus you have gotten due to the stinky cheese. Together with the lack of base hardness and only a tiny bonus this gets just ugly and nonsense really fast.

However you look at it. This doesn't work as the guy thought/hoped/wished for.
There is no rulebase why these bonuses should apply to the monk himself. Just the poor application of common sense which are topped by the rules we have.

IMHO the linked build is full of misinformation and therefor shouldn't be advertised. It did pop up a few times in the past months and I fear that more and more people are getting mislead/-informed here.

[Eldariel]

While the body parts that may be used for unarmed strikes can "arguably" be any part of his body, the cheese concept still won't work.

Monk's entire body != Monk/your character

What gets targeted is not the monk himself, it's his weapon (US) that gets the stats if you go strict RAW and would force to apply the rule.

The enemy doesn't attack the weapon (US /weapon body) of the monk normally, cause by default unarmed strikes (and Natural Attacks) can't be sundered in 3.5 (which is a good thing from the monks POV).
All you do by applying these rules (that imho are not meant to be applied to US and NA) to US is, that now your entire body is SUNDER-ABLE with ...
That is nor RAI nor RAW, just only a straight up stupid assumption..
Your US didn't have any HP so far and now has only the bonus you have gotten due to the stinky cheese. Together with the lack of base hardness and only a tiny bonus this gets just ugly and nonsense really fast.

However you look at it. This doesn't work as the guy thought/hoped/wished for.
There is no rulebase why these bonuses should apply to the monk himself. Just the poor application of common sense which are topped by the rules we have.

IMHO the linked build is full of misinformation and therefor shouldn't be advertised. It did pop up a few times in the past months and I fear that more and more people are getting mislead/-informed here.

With a favourable ruling it can work - the fact that Tippy accepted it speaks quite loudly in its favour even if it can definitely be argued. There's a place in TO-land for it so I don't see why the horrible shunning reaction. It's not like anyone brings TO builds to actual games unless they're specifically designed for silliness. I don't see the point in such an aggressive stance selling one view point.

[Gruftzwerg]

With a favourable ruling it can work - the fact that Tippy accepted it speaks quite loudly in its favour even if it can definitely be argued. There's a place in TO-land for it so I don't see why the horrible shunning reaction. It's not like anyone brings TO builds to actual games unless they're specifically designed for silliness. I don't see the point in such an aggressive stance selling one view point.

Imho there is a difference between TO, which includes RAW and maybe RAI to some extend, and this, which is just wish-thinking on a totally other lvl. Maybe that is the reasoning behind my harsh POV on this topic. + the misinformation spread with it. If people start to read rule texts like this, .. I see the end of all threads here in the forum inc. soon.. ^^

And while I like tippyverse and appreciate the work behind it, it's not bug-free nor drew I always the same conclusions as in the "what happens when.." scenario/s of the tippyverse.

[Ivanhoe]

Imho there is a difference between TO, which includes RAW and maybe RAI to some extend, and this, which is just wish-thinking on a totally other lvl. Maybe that is the reasoning behind my harsh POV on this topic. + the misinformation spread with it. If people start to read rule texts like this, .. I see the end of all threads here in the forum inc. soon.. ^^

And while I like tippyverse and appreciate the work behind it, it's not bug-free nor drew I always the same conclusions as in the "what happens when.." scenario/s of the tippyverse.

In full agreement here.

[emeraldstreak]

To get away from hypotheticals and towards substantive builds, let's assign some stats (quite high, due to Monk's insane Multiple Attribute Dependency):
18/17/16/13/12/11

Rules:
-All 20 levels must be Monk/Monk Variant
-ACFs are allowed
-Substitution levels are allowed
-All 1st party sources are allowed
-Use standard WBL all the way through
-The build must be usable from 1st to 20th; gaps in power mean death, which means you won't reach Monk 20
-Keep cheese to a minimum (I'm looking at you, "my whole body is a weapon and so I can enchant it to have hardness" people)
-LA buyoff is allowed

That's really broad, not to mention that the majority of having a working character throughout the levels isn't Monk-specific. Some of the possible distinctions are:

+ having move+fullattack/pounce options vs Decisive Strike area lockdown builds

+ selecting lead attack stat, most likely between Strength, Wisdom (Intuitive Attack), Dexterity (Weapon Finesse); all of them will do heavy damage due to dice optimization, with some edge for Strength followed by Dexterity if Shadow Blade is deemed a worthy investment

+ decide whether to add even more damage via Beast Strike. Warforged slam with 1.5xStr plus eternal wand of GMW (which has 2/day uses anyway) does well here, and there are other options

+ if you feel like it, look into alternatives to hit point damage (esp. for mid-low lvl builds). Staples include Stunning Fist, Erratic Advance, Touch of Golden Ice. The Saint template with its extra DC and Wis-related boosts is strong here

+ alternatively, be the Wild Shape Monk but mind the alignment restrictions

+ look into your defenses. The best would be hit point damage immunity + assorted other immunities. Other options will be DR (ok for low levels but eventually falling behind), very high AC, or outright being untargetable by Darkstalker optimization

PS. Keep in mind any weapon can be made into a Monk weapon, however only a Scorpion weapon and unarmed strike itself can have the unarmed strike damage dice. This is an important distinction, especially for Decisive Strike builds.

[animewatcha]

Isn't there tiger sandals or something in Sword and fist that has unarmed strike deal double damage on a charge?

[Gruftzwerg]

PS. Keep in mind any weapon can be made into a Monk weapon, however only a Scorpion weapon and unarmed strike itself can have the unarmed strike damage dice. This is an important distinction, especially for Decisive Strike builds.

There is also Drunken Masters "Improvised Weapon" ability which adds also on-top of unarmed dmg.

And how comes that everybody seems to ignores/forgets regular PHB gauntles??

A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
Which tops the fact that they ain't monk weapons, cause they may be considered as unarmed attacks and thus are flurry-able.




Isn't there tiger sandals or something in Sword and fist that has unarmed strike deal double damage on a charge?
yes.
Sandals of the Tiger Leap: double unarmed strike dmg on a charge. I like to use it on my unarmed builds every time since they are really cheap.

[SirNibbles]

There is also Drunken Masters "Improvised Weapon" ability which adds also on-top of unarmed dmg.

And how comes that everybody seems to ignores/forgets regular PHB gauntles??

Which tops the fact that they ain't monk weapons, cause they may be considered as unarmed attacks and thus are flurry-able.



yes.
Sandals of the Tiger Leap: double unarmed strike dmg on a charge. I like to use it on my unarmed builds every time since they are really cheap.

An Unarmed Attack is different from an Unarmed Strike, by RAW. Monks can flurry with an Unarmed Strike, not an Unarmed Attack. Most people just hand-wave the distinction.


That's really broad, not to mention that the majority of having a working character throughout the levels isn't Monk-specific. Some of the possible distinctions are:

+ having move+fullattack/pounce options vs Decisive Strike area lockdown builds

+ selecting lead attack stat, most likely between Strength, Wisdom (Intuitive Attack), Dexterity (Weapon Finesse); all of them will do heavy damage due to dice optimization, with some edge for Strength followed by Dexterity if Shadow Blade is deemed a worthy investment

+ decide whether to add even more damage via Beast Strike. Warforged slam with 1.5xStr plus eternal wand of GMW (which has 2/day uses anyway) does well here, and there are other options

+ if you feel like it, look into alternatives to hit point damage (esp. for mid-low lvl builds). Staples include Stunning Fist, Erratic Advance, Touch of Golden Ice. The Saint template with its extra DC and Wis-related boosts is strong here

+ alternatively, be the Wild Shape Monk but mind the alignment restrictions

+ look into your defenses. The best would be hit point damage immunity + assorted other immunities. Other options will be DR (ok for low levels but eventually falling behind), very high AC, or outright being untargetable by Darkstalker optimization

PS. Keep in mind any weapon can be made into a Monk weapon, however only a Scorpion weapon and unarmed strike itself can have the unarmed strike damage dice. This is an important distinction, especially for Decisive Strike builds.

I would say that full attacks, especially if you add Beast Strike to every single hit, have 3+ hands, and use Martial Monk to get Greater Multiweapon Fighting would work better than Decisive Strike builds. Even at level 3 (with Improved Multiweapon only), you're looking at a Flurry of 2 hits with your main hand and 2 attacks with each off-hand. You'll have some accuracy issues (-2/-2 and -2/-7/-2/-7) before you apply stat modifiers, though Invisible Fist really helps with that.

Beyond STR/DEX/WIS (which I would agree are your best bets), you could try a Charisma build (with a heavy sprinkle of cheese involving Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Ascetic Mage). Three feats to become Charisma-based isn't worth it though.

Regarding Beast Strike/Slam/GMW, I think most people were thinking along those lines: jack up both as high as possible to get your Unarmed Strike to insane levels.

I think getting perma-Blink by 9th level is sufficient enough for defense that you can focus on damage output.

__

I think one of the major issues remains the lack of effectiveness outside of combat. With limited skill points and no spells, a Monk can't really do much. For that reason I would recommend a Sidewinder Monk with maxed Bluff and decent Diplomacy/Intimidate so you can be somewhat of a presence when you're not punching things.

[SirNibbles]

Lack of feats is a huge issue at higher levels, even with two flaws and Martial Monk cheese.



Silverbrow Human Martial Invisible Eye Sidewinder Monk 20
Base Stats
STR: 15
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 17
CHA: 11

Level 1:

Skill points: 20
Hide: 4 (4)
Move Silently: 4 (4)
Balance: 4 (4)
Bluff: 2 (4)
Sense Motive: 4 (4)

Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon, page 98)
Apprentice: Criminal (Dungeon Master's Guide II, page 177)
Defensive Sweep (Player's Handbook II, page 78)
Flaw: Shaky (Unearthed Arcana, page 91)
Two Weapon Fighting (Player's Handbook, page 102)
Flaw: Bestial Instinct (Dragon Magazine #324, page 93)
Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms, page 147)

Notes: Defensive Sweep is a Fighter Bonus Feat, allowing us to avoid the prerequisite +15 BAB with Martial Monk. This feat allows us to charge into a group of enemies and essentially get free attacks against them. Apprentice: Criminal sets our starting gold at 112 gold, 5 silver (100 more than normal). Bluff becomes a class skill. We have a tail slap attack from Dragon Tail. Shaky reduces our Ranged Attack Rolls by 2. Two Weapon Fighting qualifies us for Prehensile Tail, which gives us a third hand from our tail, which should change Two Weapon Fighting to Multiweapon Fighting (interpretations may vary). Bestial Instinct reduces our attack rolls by 2 except with Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks. The main gear we need, besides adventuring tools, is a Longspear.

Prehensile Tail means we have 1 main hand and two off hands, so we can make 1 main hand Unarmed Strike and 2 off hand Unarmed Strikes.

Level 2:

ACF: Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil, page 21)

Skill points: 5
Hide: 5 (1)
Move Silently: 5 (1)
Balance: 5 (1)
Bluff: 3 (1)
Sense Motive: 5 (1)

Improved Multiweapon Fighting (Savage Species, page 36)

Five ranks in Balance stop us being flat-footed while balancing. We have a +1 bonus to Bluff from Sidewinder's Silver Tongue ability- this will increase by 1 every two levels. Invisible Fist allows us to remain invisible for a full round as an immediate action. It can be used once every three rounds and replaces the Evasion ability. Again we're (ab)using Martial Monk to take a feat way early.

Level 3:

Skill points: 5
Hide: 6 (1)
Move Silently: 6 (1)
Bluff: 5 (2)
Sense Motive: 6 (1)

This is the first level at which we have Sneak Attack, +10 movement speed.

Combat Reflexes (Player's Handbook, page 92)

Level 4:

+1 WIS (18)

Skill points: 5
Hide: 7 (1)
Move Silently: 7 (1)
Bluff: 7 (2)
Sense Motive: 7 (1)

Nothing too interesting at this level. 1d8 UAS, ability to grow Fangs, +2 Bluff now.

Level 5:

Skill points: 5
Hide: 8 (1)
Move Silently: 8 (1)
Bluff: 8 (1)
Sense Motive: 8 (1)
Tumble: 1 (1)

+1 to AC, Flurry penalty reduced by 1, Ki Strike (Magic)

Level 6:

Skill points: 5
Hide: 9 (1)
Move Silently: 9 (1)
Bluff: 9 (1)
Sense Motive: 9 (1)
Tumble: 2 (1)

Greater Multiweapon Fighting (Savage Species, page 35)
Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook, page 25)

2d6 Sneak now, Greater Multiweapon Fighting using Martial Monk. +20 feet movement speed.

Level 7:

Skill points: 5
Hide: 10 (1)
Move Silently: 10 (1)
Bluff: 10 (1)
Sense Motive: 10 (1)
Tumble: 3 (1)

Wholeness of Body. Nothing else.

Level 8:

+1 STR (16)

Skill points: 5
Hide: 11 (1)
Move Silently: 11 (1)
Bluff: 11 (1)
Sense Motive: 11 (1)
Tumble: 4 (1)

Another use of Fangs per day, +4 intimidate (6 while baring fangs), 1d10 UAS damage, and you finally get a second iterative. We have enough gold now to buy a Smashing Tail Graft (Races of the Dragon, page 130) which gives us a Slam attack.

Level 9:

Skill points: 5
Hide: 10 (1)
Move Silently: 10 (1)
Bluff: 10 (1)
Sense Motive: 10 (1)
Tumble: 3 (1)

Beast Strike (Dragon Magazine #355)

Sneak 3d6. Blink as an immediate action once every 3 rounds for rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. You can Blink permanently since you have at least 16 Wisdom. Beast Strike adds your Smashing Tail's Slam damage to your UAS. For now, that's 1d8. Get an eternal wand of GMW as soon as possible (43,600 gold for CL 20, if my math is correct).

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest to start with Necklace of Natural Weapons + Sizing and maybe later switch to GMW. Sure, you have to deal with a stacking -2 toHit penalty for each size category difference, but you can get it (+1 + sizing) earlier for 8600g per Natural Attack to be effect.