Barbarian/Rogue (Thief, this is important) Grappler

[prototype00]

So was just pondering how best to synergies the two classes for grappling purposes.

The basic synergy is of course Advantage on Athletics checks from Barbarian and Expertise with Athletics from Rogue.

The Shield Master feat allows you to knock prone as a bonus action, to even further debilitate your foe.

But how to fit in that sneak attack once you have grappled? Because if you are going Rapier + Shield, you are going to want to do that extra damage. But to grapple, you need a free hand, and the Shield hand is basically useless for this and you need the rapier to sneak attack...

Well, here's one way (comments welcome).

Take the Thief subclass for Rogue and 5 levels of Barb for extra attack, now you get to use an object as a bonus action and attack twice.

1. Start armed with Shield and Rapier.

2. Move up and shove a foe prone. Bonus Action.

3. Stab them with advantage and sneak attack. 1st attack.

4. Use an item as a free action, put your Rapier away.

5. Grapple them. Attack 2.

6. Next round, release them as a free action, and draw your Rapier as a free action.

7. They are still prone so stab them with advantage and sneak attack. 1st attack.

8. Put away Rapier, bonus action.

9. Grapple them. Attack 2

10. Repeat until they are dead or cry uncle.

So what do people think? Reasonably sure it works RAW, does eat into your Damage some, but probably ends up slightly better than attacking while grappling.

Ah, you have to be lvl 8 to pull this off as well which is also an issue.

[Citan]

So was just pondering how best to synergies the two classes for grappling purposes.

The basic synergy is of course Advantage on Athletics checks from Barbarian and Expertise with Athletics from Rogue.

The Shield Master feat allows you to knock prone as a bonus action, to even further debilitate your foe.

But how to fit in that sneak attack once you have grappled? Because if you are going Rapier + Shield, you are going to want to do that extra damage. But to grapple, you need a free hand, and the Shield hand is basically useless for this and you need the rapier to sneak attack...

Well, here's one way (comments welcome).

Take the Thief subclass for Rogue and 5 levels of Barb for extra attack, now you get to use an object as a bonus action and attack twice.

So what do people think? Reasonably sure it works RAW, does eat into your Damage some, but probably ends up slightly better than attacking while grappling.

Ah, you have to be lvl 8 to pull this off as well which is also an issue.
Thanks for this excellent demonstration as to why Grappler feat is good. :smallbiggrin:
Seriously. ;)

You are obviously looking for a way to get self-sufficient advantage: meaning you don't care about providing advantage to others (not criticizing here, it can be perfectly legitimate ;)), so Shove really doesn't bring anything. Except when you know the enemy will try to flee: in that case it's straight better than Grappling because it will give you an opportunity attack, which is something you want to happen as often as possible as someone with a stronger weapon attack than usual (Sneak Attack).
Otherwise, it's nice but a bit costly and unreliable (even with Expertise, at low levels, you can still fail) for what it brings.

Instead, take Rogue 1, Barb 5, grab Grappler, take a one-handed weapon only, you are set: turn 1: Grapple, Extra Attack with advantage, use your Cunning Action for anything else (like, for example, dragging the creature away from its friends at normal speed and closer to cover/allies).
Turn 2: Attack, Attack both times with advantage.
In case you want a third attack with bonus action? Just go dual-wielding (although it does force you to use lower dice weapons, namely shortsword and daggers): first draw and throw the dagger with your "free" hand (enabling bonus action attack per RAW), then grapple then attack. Not that great a tactic but it's still another chance at landing Sneak Attack if you had no other use for your bonus action this turn. ^^

But honestly, if you just want advantage for Sneak Attack, there are simpler ways than Grapple/Shove. With the first one being Reckless Attack since you are talking about a Barb/Rogue dual class: it does make you more vulnerable after the fact, but Cunning Action from Rogue compensates by allowing you better defensive mobility. Plus Reckless Attack does not require any kind of action. So unless you are in a very bad shape already and/or under heavy threat of ranged attacks, Reckless Attack + Disengage/Move far away should result in exactly the same result as far as your damage is concerned, without any risk of failing a check in the first place. :=)

More generally...
Grappling: grappling a creature should not be considered primarily as a way to enhance your weapon attacks, but primarily as a way to move a creature to a place of your choice, or force it to focus only on you. Gaining advantage on your attacks through Grappler feat is just icing on the cake because it considerably reduce the "potential loss" on damage contribution.
Your case gives a very nice illustration: as a Barbarian, you usually want to draw attacks. Grappling is basically the best non-magical way to ensure that for a single creature. At the same time, if you are not careful, you may see your HP depleted quickly.
You could certainly just use Reckless Attack after grappling, but then the grappled creature would have advantage against you, and this may result in a too dangerous threat.
You could just try your luck normally, but as a Rogue, missing on the one chance to apply Sneak Attack is frustrating.
With Grappler feat, you still get advantage on your attacks but the creature has no advantage, so much lesser chance to hit you.

Shoving: same could be said with Shoving: it's a great tactic when you have several melee friends around, or if this is the only way for you to get advantage on a creature and you get 3+ attacks per round (either 3+ attacks on your turn, like Fighter, or you count on OA). If you only have 2 attacks per round and no tactical incentive to restrain/prone the creature, plain Extra Attack is better. :)

[prototype00]

The main thing you seem not to have mentioned is that when your enemy is prone, they also have disadvantage on their attacks vs you (you will probably be their main target) and anyone else they can reach, a non inconsiderable benefit you don't get with Restrained.

[prototype00]

Was pointed out on Reddit where I posted something similar that there were several ways to go about this:

Sword and Board Shield Master- Elucidated above.

Basically Conan- You dump the shield and basically go about with a Rapier in one hand. Much more aggressive, you can shove prone with an attack action then keep them there with your free hand while shanking away. Barbarians have excellent damage mitigation anyhow.

Shield and Fist- All the benefits of Sword and Board, but you need to find a method of getting proficient with improvised weapons which deal no sneak attack. An inferior choice I feel.

Hmm,I think either the Sword and Board or basically Conan might be the ways to go, depending on how aggressive you want your build to be...

[Citan]

The main thing you seem not to have mentioned is that when your enemy is prone, they also have disadvantage on their attacks vs you (you will probably be their main target) and anyone else they can reach, a non inconsiderable benefit you don't get with Restrained.
Yeah it's true but how often do you really care?
If you put enemy prone, it's most often to give advantage to your pals or (forgot about that) sufficiently reducing its speed to ensure it cannot reach you on its next turn (provided yourself had still enough speed to move far away during your own turn). Meaning because creature is prone, the only dangerous thing it can do until its turn comes is one and only Opportunity Attack anyways. Once its turn comes, it will certainly get back up.

Otherwise said, the only case when I can see this benefit really making a difference is when...
- That single opportunity attack would be especially threatening for you for whatever reason (ex attack with a dangerous effect stacked on it, or you are already too low HP to your taste).
- And you have no other way to deal damage than to come into close contact (meaning sword&board Rogue or GWM Barbarian/Fighter).
- And you just know for sure you have no decent chance of killing it by using all your attacks.
- And you still have to move elsewhere after attacking.
- And you have no way of disengaging except using your Action.

Which basically means pure GWM, either Barbarian, or non-Battlemaster Fighter, or non-Vengeance Paladin.
Martials with a shield usually have a high enough AC to gamble on it, or they could use reach weapons, or thrown weapons. One-handers could also use the same tactics or temporarily switch to dual-wielding.
Battlemasters get many tools to manage this kind of situations, Rogue get Cunning Action, Monk get Dodge/Disengage/Stunning Strike for a ki (+ no reaction for Open Hand), Vengeance Paladins get Haste and Misty Step (and any Paladin Shield of Faith), even an Eldricht Knight could decide to use Blade Ward paired with War Magic if really Shoving prone is the best tactical choice to make for his party. Plus any martial using a finesse weapon could also use Defensive Duelist (although in practice I see only Fighter that can afford it since it's kinda niche for what it brings), or has picked Mobile feat, or any caster ally could buff you instead.

That's equally true for your pals: once you shoved the creature, unless they are in one of aforementioned peculiar characters, they don't need to come within OA reach either. Or maybe the party knows that if everyone gangs up before creature's next turn it will die anyways so no need to provoke an OA. Or maybe the most resilient of everyone targeting it (best AC, or current most HP) will make the move and trigger the OA, then everyone else is free to swarm in without risk.

Really, unless there is something else that happens from your part of one of your allies to pin down the prone creature, the disadvantage will make certainly a difference, but really not that often or not that big. :)

[polymphus]

There's an easier way to do this -- Barbarian/Monk/Rogue. If your fists hit as hard as weapons, there's no need to keep drawing/stowing things. The ultimate wrestler build looks something like Barb 11/Monk 8/Rogue 1.

[prototype00]

Yeah it's true but how often do you really care?
If you put enemy prone, it's most often to give advantage to your pals or (forgot about that) sufficiently reducing its speed to ensure it cannot reach you on its next turn (provided yourself had still enough speed to move far away during your own turn). Meaning because creature is prone, the only dangerous thing it can do until its turn comes is one and only Opportunity Attack anyways. Once its turn comes, it will certainly get back up.

You seem to misunderstand. With this build, when I make something go prone and then grapple it, it's to reduce their speed to zero so they CAN'T (getting up takes half your speed, an amount you can't spare if your speed is 0ft) get up, and then I spend my turn stabbing them in the back. Moving away kind of defeats the purpose of everything.


Otherwise said, the only case when I can see this benefit really making a difference is when...
- That single opportunity attack would be especially threatening for you for whatever reason (ex attack with a dangerous effect stacked on it, or you are already too low HP to your taste).
- And you have no other way to deal damage than to come into close contact (meaning sword&board Rogue or GWM Barbarian/Fighter).
- And you just know for sure you have no decent chance of killing it by using all your attacks.
- And you still have to move elsewhere after attacking.
- And you have no way of disengaging except using your Action.

By staying in one place, the enemy can attack me fine. Being stuck prone with disadvantage just means that they suck at it.


Really, unless there is something else that happens from your part of one of your allies to pin down the prone creature, the disadvantage will make certainly a difference, but really not that often or not that big. :)

Does my explanation of the stratagems of a lock down grappler make it clear why enemy disadvantage is so useful?

[Citan]

There's an easier way to do this -- Barbarian/Monk/Rogue. If your fists hit as hard as weapons, there's no need to keep drawing/stowing things. The ultimate wrestler build looks something like Barb 11/Monk 8/Rogue 1.
I certainly agree on Monk, but why as high Barbarian (no PHB at the moment and I can't remember Barb features that would justify it)?
Also, from a discussion I had with someone else in another thread, from my memories the best grappler is actually any build with Rogue 11, because Reliable Talent + Expertise just trumps everything else: "inferior to 10=10" paired with Expertise means you just have a base result of 20 at level 12 whatever else happens (and probably more with a proper STR build). Sooo... You don't really care that much anymore about advantage. ^^
Maybe the best grappler is Arcane Trickster 11 / Lore Bard 3 / Battlemaster 6: Enhance Ability at low level, Cutting Words at all times, and Trip Attack to add insult to injury without even hurting your action economy. :)

[prototype00]

There's an easier way to do this -- Barbarian/Monk/Rogue. If your fists hit as hard as weapons, there's no need to keep drawing/stowing things. The ultimate wrestler build looks something like Barb 11/Monk 8/Rogue 1.

I was considering Monk, for the Shield and Fist Route, but you lose a fair few goodies from Monk by going Board. Plus the monk's damage is a mere 1d6 at 8th level, compared to a rogue's guaranteed against a prone target 4d6 sneak attack.

There is probably a good synergistic grappling build with Monk, but I'm still looking.

[Citan]

You seem to misunderstand. With this build, when I make something go prone and then grapple it, it's to reduce their speed to zero so they CAN'T (getting up takes half your speed, an amount you can't spare if your speed is 0ft) get up, and then I spend my turn stabbing them in the back. Moving away kind of defeats the purpose of everything.

By staying in one place, the enemy can attack me fine. Being stuck prone with disadvantage just means that they suck at it.

Does my explanation of the stratagems of a lock down grappler make it clear why enemy disadvantage is so useful?
Yeah, but then your build is really overkill, and sorry for harshness borderline useless except if you really wanted that extra +2 from shield.

If you want to pin someone down by Shove + Grapple tactic, better go plain Eldricht Knight with a single level dip in Rogue (and possibly a lvl 3 multiclass in caster if you want more fuel).

Beyond the fact I'm really not sure you can use a bonus action "inside" the Extra Attack action, you are using one attack on every turn just to grapple again (which, incidentally, you are not sure to succeed every single time, especially at low level).

Since it's a tactic you thought of for single-handedly taking care of an enemy, it's much much simpler and better to just spend your whole first turn on Shove and Grapple as a one-handed melee guy, then smack away on every attack for the remaining of your turns.

In which case you don't need either Shield Master or Grappler feat: just a bit of luck or help on the first two checks, then you are good to go until your target is dead (I said Eldricht Knight just for the case where you would want Enlarge to take care of more difficult targets).


I was considering Monk, for the Shield and Fist Route, but you lose a fair few goodies from Monk by going Board. Plus the monk's damage is a mere 1d6 at 8th level, compared to a rogue's guaranteed against a prone target 4d6 sneak attack.

There is probably a good synergistic grappling build with Monk, but I'm still looking.
It's really not hard though: Open Hand Monk is your answer.
2 attacks from the get go, so at level 2 (Monk 1 / Rogue 1) you already have a pretty decent chance to at least get Shove, maybe even Shove and Grapple.
Once you get Monk 3, you get 3-attack turns three times per short rest, with two of them having a chance to apply prone for free.
When you get Monk 5, it's now 4-attack turns.
Plus all the goodies a Monk usually gets, including extra mobility and defense.

Open Hand Monk 5+ / AT Rogue 5-7-8 would make a pretty potent candidate for your goal: Uncanny Dodge would help reduce threat from the grappled enemy, Cunning Action Dash would allow you to drag the creature away closer to your own camp, you'd deal pretty decent damage between Extra Attack and Sneak Attack... You could start with the same stats as a pure Monk, so decent 16 AC too.
For a solo character, multiclassing into Bear Barbarian for extra resilience and advantage would still be worth, although it could bring a drawback depending on your stats (because of MADness, and incompatibility of Martial Arts & extra movement with armors).
For a duo, any Cleric or Lore Bard will be enough: Warding Bond + Enlarge/Enhance Ability. ;)

[Lombra]

I don't understand why would you want to do all this mess when you only have to pick the grappler feat to always have advantage while grappling.

shove -attack -grapple -attack -grapple... you waste half of your attacks to keep the opponent down. Pick grappler, grapple, attack, attack, attack, attack... you can still shove them without a shield if you want.

[KorvinStarmast]

The shove (and keep them down) is good for opponents who are small, medium, and large. Once they get to huge, it doesn't work. (See the PHB) As you go higher in levels, there will be a number of fights where this combination doesn't work due to the size differential.

Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Use of the Enlarge spell should help, if someone can stuff it into a Ring of Spell storing for you. You can have two Enlarges in the ring, and one first level spell (ask your friendly caster for the one you like best). Once you become Large, you have a chance to try this against Giants, though their strength opposed to yours may not make for success as often as you'd like.

[Citan]

The shove (and keep them down) is good for opponents who are small, medium, and large. Once they get to huge, it doesn't work. (See the PHB) As you go higher in levels, there will be a number of fights where this combination doesn't work due to the size differential.
Use of the Enlarge spell should help, if someone can stuff it into a Ring of Spell storing for you. You can have two Enlarges in the ring, and one first level spell (ask your friendly caster for the one you like best). Once you become Large, you have a chance to try this against Giants, though their strength opposed to yours may not make for success as often as you'd like.

Agreed, that's why my usual suggestion of "best grappler" (which has same limits as Shove) includes a caster with Enlarge dip/multiclass, or maybe Polymorph/Moon Druid Wild Shape although it makes it much more niche. ;)

Although, didn't Volo's or some UA provide Large playable races? Or did I just dream it?

[polymphus]

They're not Large per-se, but they're medium creatures that can lift (and --potentially depending on your DM--) grapple as though they were Large. Goliath is probably the best pick.

[Naanomi]

My preferred grappler is a battlemaster/lore Bard with Tavern Brawler... trip-Attack->Tavern Brawler grapple is a lot of fun; and nothing wins grapple checks like Expertise+Enlarge/Enhance Ability+Cutting Words

[prototype00]

The shove (and keep them down) is good for opponents who are small, medium, and large. Once they get to huge, it doesn't work. (See the PHB) As you go higher in levels, there will be a number of fights where this combination doesn't work due to the size differential.
Use of the Enlarge spell should help, if someone can stuff it into a Ring of Spell storing for you. You can have two Enlarges in the ring, and one first level spell (ask your friendly caster for the one you like best). Once you become Large, you have a chance to try this against Giants, though their strength opposed to yours may not make for success as often as you'd like.


Agreed, that's why my usual suggestion of "best grappler" (which has same limits as Shove) includes a caster with Enlarge dip/multiclass, or maybe Polymorph/Moon Druid Wild Shape although it makes it much more niche. ;)

Although, didn't Volo's or some UA provide Large playable races? Or did I just dream it?


My preferred grappler is a battlemaster/lore Bard with Tavern Brawler... trip-Attack->Tavern Brawler grapple is a lot of fun; and nothing wins grapple checks like Expertise+Enlarge/Enhance Ability+Cutting Words

I don't disagree with y'all there. If I wasn't aiming for Fast Hands Shennanigans, I'd take Arcane Trickster for a good source of Enlarge Person to grapple the huge beasties.

[prototype00]

Thinking about it, Basically Conan might be more damaging after you get Extra Attack, but before that you can't really use grapple as a technique effectively- you can either grapple or knock prone but both are attack actions, which ends your turn at lvl 1.

Shieldbro on the other hand gets to prone as a bonus action from lvl 1, and even grapple if he wants to in the same round, the changes to the action economy are quite profound for a change like that, especially to low level PCs.

[djreynolds]

Thinking about it, Basically Conan might be more damaging after you get Extra Attack, but before that you can't really use grapple as a technique effectively- you can either grapple or knock prone but both are attack actions, which ends your turn at lvl 1.

Shieldbro on the other hand gets to prone as a bonus action from lvl 1, and even grapple if he wants to in the same round, the changes to the action economy are quite profound for a change like that, especially to low level PCs.

Its not a bad idea for a build.

But where is the meat of you damage coming from? Rogue or barbarian?

You really only need 2 to 3 levels of barbarian for advantage on strength checks

What might suit this build better, is 5 levels of fighter instead of barbarian. Action surge, good for once a short rest, would allow this combo to go off better.

IMO basically you need 5 levels of barbarian and 2 of fighter for action surge.... the rest rogue for sneak attack damage... dagger is fine

Or simply 5 levels of fighter and skip barbarian, and the rest rogue

[prototype00]

Its not a bad idea for a build.

Cannot claim to have come up with it, as most of the ideas were from the Guide to Grappling 2.0 on enworld.


But where is the meat of you damage coming from? Rogue or barbarian?

Mostly Rogue sneak attack, Barbarians are front loaded and progression takes a while for them.


You really only need 2 to 3 levels of barbarian for advantage on strength checks

What might suit this build better, is 5 levels of fighter instead of barbarian. Action surge, good for once a short rest, would allow this combo to go off better.

IMO basically you need 5 levels of barbarian and 2 of fighter for action surge.... the rest rogue for sneak attack damage... dagger is fine

Or simply 5 levels of fighter and skip barbarian, and the rest rogue

Yeah, but without Barbarian you don't have an easy source of Advantage on Athletics and damage mitigation.

Action surge is tempting however...

[djreynolds]

Cannot claim to have come up with it, as most of the ideas were from the Guide to Grappling 2.0 on enworld.



Mostly Rogue sneak attack, Barbarians are front loaded and progression takes a while for them.



Yeah, but without Barbarian you don't have an easy source of Advantage on Athletics and damage mitigation.

Action surge is tempting however...

You will get uncanny dodge from rogue

Yeah advantage on athletics is cool, but with a maxed strength and expertise up to +17 is good enough

I think that's kinda where I stand, you have to ask yourself.... is this adequate?

Sure raging is nice, but think of the stuff you cannot do while raging. Like spells that protect you and no heavy armor, plate armor is nice.

Here is a build, that I have based many builds on

http://burrowowl.net/2014/10/the-5e-savage-duelist/

Plenty of damage, fighter/barbarian/rogue with shield master.

IMO, 3-4 barbarian, 5-6 fighter, rest rogue... something like thief over swashbuckler.... but I like both. And even arcane trickster for some utility spells when you do not want to rage. And in this build I prefer battlemaster over champion as you are really limited to 2 attacks and you just want the sneak attack damage.

You can still grapple as good as anyone else, but its not your main thing all the time. Its build for the long haul but starts off strong and gives consistent damage

Also you could switch up barbarian and fighter in terms of levels. I really like berserker's mindless rage... it is an auto-pass from fear and charm. Who cares about frenzying, mindless rage makes up for this IMO.

Good luck

[GlenSmash!]

My preferred grappler is a battlemaster/lore Bard with Tavern Brawler... trip-Attack->Tavern Brawler grapple is a lot of fun; and nothing wins grapple checks like Expertise+Enlarge/Enhance Ability+Cutting Words

The only trouble I've found with Tavern Brawler is that it requires you to hit with the unarmed strike/improvised weapon to get the bonus action grapple attempt. If you miss you are not only out on the damage of the attack, but you lose the bonus action too :(

Precision Attack can help with this though. As could a Barbarian's Reckless attack, or Scout Fighter's unnamed maneuver.

[prototype00]

The only trouble I've found with Tavern Brawler is that it requires you to hit with the unarmed strike/improvised weapon to get the bonus action grapple attempt. If you miss you are not only out on the damage of the attack, but you lose the bonus action too :(

Precision Attack can help with this though. As could a Barbarian's Reckless attack, or Scout Fighter's unnamed maneuver.

Well the other issue s that Battlemaster's Trip Attack is a Strength Save whereas the Shove maneuver is an opposed roll. You can get a check much higher than your save DC with both proficiency/expertise and advantage in general.

prototype00

[greenstone]

There are a lot of assumptions about free actions there that won't apply at many tables (well, my table :-).

It also assumes the rest of the party are meleers, since this strategy will screw over the ranged combatants (especially the Rogue with a bow!).

[prototype00]

There are a lot of assumptions about free actions there that won't apply at many tables (well, my table :-).

It also assumes the rest of the party are meleers, since this strategy will screw over the ranged combatants (especially the Rogue with a bow!).

The "assumptions" are based on RAW, if you want to homebrew other rules, that is also explicitly allowed for home games, I tend to plan for AL, personally.

Your second point, however is well taken, and yes it does not help ranged as much (besides the obvious benefit of stopping the ogre from directing its tender ministrations towards the rest of the party)

[Dalebert]

I made a bugbearian rogue with a similar build. He's got a Belt of Hill Giant Strength and expertise in athletics because why not? But honestly I kept it simpler. I like the idea that he can be a great grappler but mostly I just attack recklessly with whips from 15 feet away--advantage at-will.

The plan is barbarian 2 / rogue 18. If/when he gets to 20, no one will be able to gain advantage on him so reckless attack become FREE. But most importantly he's built around good sneak attack dmg; not extra attacks. I'll probably take dual wielding feat for two attacks though. I already have two magic whips. I figure two attacks with advantage should usually be plenty when the goal is to land that sneak attack.

[GlenSmash!]

Well the other issue s that Battlemaster's Trip Attack is a Strength Save whereas the Shove maneuver is an opposed roll. You can get a check much higher than your save DC with both proficiency/expertise and advantage in general.

prototype00

True. One of the reasons I like that the UA Scout Fighter is that it can add Superiority dice to Athletics Checks.