Asmodeus vs. Kefka

[Duke Malagigi]

Out of one corner a clownish, colorfully and brightly dressed man walks towards you. Upon his face you glimpse a demonic smile and feel as if your very soul is screaming in agony. You recognize this human fiend as a mad solder for Ghestal's corrupt Empire. As this vile trickster is about to annihilate you with his arcane might you hear a strange and booming, yet handsome sounding voice cry out, "Kefka, I expected as much from the likes of you. While you have not heard of me, I still know much about you. Your weakness, nihilism, anarchic philosophy and general madness. Amend your ways and bow before me or suffer a most painful and horrific death." This strange figure revealed himself, then in calm and somewhat quieter voice says to you, "Terra and friends bow before your new master Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth and Ruler of the Nine Pits of Hell. Kneel."

BoVD Asmodeus vs. mid World of Balance Kefka
BoVD Asmodeus vs. Floating Continent Kefka
BoVD Asmodeus vs. World of Ruin Kefka

FC: II Asmodeus vs. mid World of Balance Kefka
FC: II Asmodeus vs. Floating Continent Kefka
FC: II Asmodeus vs. World of Ruin Kefka

Gates of Hell Asmodeus vs. mid World of Balance Kefka
Gates of Hell II Asmodeus vs. Floating Continent Kefka
Gates of Hell Asmodeus vs. World of Ruin Kefka

Who do you think would win?

[EvilElitest]

Isn't Kefka like an omipotent god?
from,
EE

[Xefas]

I dunno what "FC" or "Gates of Hell" is, but Asmodeus has a major artifact, leads a nigh-infinite amount of devils, has lived since the beginning of time to which he could stage contingencies for every possible situation he would ever face, and, according to the Fiendish Codex, bleeds Pit Fiends. Pit Fiends who have Wishes.

Not only that, but it also says that Asmodeus is such an integral pillar of law in the cosmos, that if he were to die, the balance of evil would shift, Demons would overthrow hell, multiply into infinity, kill all living things, destroy the universe, devour the gods themselves, and then end existence.

I assume Kefka counts as existing, right? Noone can really "win" against Asmodeus. That's why he's Asmodeus. If someone could win against him, he wouldn't be the Ruler of Hell.

That's my opinion.

[SITB]

Kefka pretty much screwed the 'order of the world' by moving the "Warring Triad" out of sync, resulting in a post apocalyptic world where everything slowly die.

But the real question is where do they fight? See, since Kefka absorbed the power of the gods resulting in his transformation to the fountain of magic in his world I doubt Asmodeus could defeat him there.

[Duke Malagigi]

FC: II stands for Fiendish Codex II. Also if you're wondering what Gates of Hell is, it's a free, nine chapter, approximately 400 page nine part PDF product of Dicefreaks. If any one wonders what Gates of Hell Asmodeus looks like, click the spoiler button in my signature. That's what he would look like in OotS style.

[Fury1671]

Not only that, but it also says that Asmodeus is such an integral pillar of law in the cosmos, that if he were to die, the balance of evil would shift, Demons would overthrow hell, multiply into infinity, kill all living things, destroy the universe, devour the gods themselves, and then end existence.

I assume Kefka counts as existing, right? Noone can really "win" against Asmodeus. That's why he's Asmodeus. If someone could win against him, he wouldn't be the Ruler of Hell.


Kefka states he wishes to build a monument to non-existance. So Kefka may technically lose when it comes to not existing, but his goal will succeed.

[Xefas]

Well, I'm a little fuzzy on how FFVI ended...but I assume that Kefka was the final battle, he went through a "Now, you shall see my ultimate form, har har har!" scene, and then the PCs defeat him, correct?

Ergo, he's defeatable. If something can be defeated, I think Asmodeus is the best man for the job. Even more so if it's in Hell itself. Anywhere else is slightly less overkill.

His measly CR 32 doesn't really incorporate all of his non-directly-mechanical-related perks of being 1) The creator of the Pact Primeval 2) A pillar of law that all the lawful gods are likely to protect for the safety of the multiverse 3) Ruler of Hell...who has 8 other Archdukes on call 24/7.

[Duke Malagigi]

Exactly what do you mean by measly Xefas? Do you think it should be raised and by how much? Should Asmodeus' CR be raised by 9, 19, 29, 39 or 49? What is it then?

[Incendius]

And your forgetting two things.


All of the statted forms are his avatars, as in no where near his actual abilities.
And two; it has been rolled around that the Asmodeus himself, when at his full non avatar form is actually an avatar of a being akin to an overdiety. Meaning that statted forms for him (except for dicefreaks, where its just an avatar) are avatar's of an avatar of an overdeity.

[Cybren]

Kefka was attempting to destroy all creation when the heroes slew him. He just hadn't gotten around to it at the time. I'd give it a 50/50 spread. Kefka was a deity at the end of the game.


oops spoilers.

[Xefas]

I think Asmodeus shouldn't exactly have a CR. He shouldn't be a challenge that players can face. If killing him means the end, then clearly Wizards wants him to be too much of a challenge. Really, the only way you'd have a campaign in which Asmodeus was an opponent that could be defeated without everyone ending up non-existant is one where the DM supplies a MacGuffin that lets you kill Asmodeus without it happening.

So, unless Kefka is being played by the DM's girlfriend, I don't see actual "victory" happening. Even the most chaotic gods in the D&D world would band together to stop anyone killing Asmodeus. They don't want to not exist.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Aw, dammit, not this again.

It's an interesting matchup, though. Kefka kinda represents all those things about Evil that Asmodeus doesn't: mindless destruction, screwing with the universal balance for fun, cackling, etc. I'm not going to come to a conclusion on any of these specifics. Ascendant Kefka might be able to defeat Asmodeus's avatars, he might not. A sufficiently epic adventuring party can take either in a straight fight. Asmodeus just has the sanity left to not get into a straight fight, which does not apply to this hypothetical. If it does, than the fight never happens. Kefka might have Real Ultimate Clown Power, but Asmodeus can manipulate circles around him, and would have him taken care of by someone else (probably epic adventurers) before the fight even started.

[Duke Malagigi]

I think Asmodeus shouldn't exactly have a CR. He shouldn't be a challenge that players can face. If killing him means the end, then clearly Wizards wants him to be too much of a challenge. Really, the only way you'd have a campaign in which Asmodeus was an opponent that could be defeated without everyone ending up non-existant is one where the DM supplies a MacGuffin that lets you kill Asmodeus without it happening.

So, unless Kefka is being played by the DM's girlfriend, I don't see actual "victory" happening. Even the most chaotic gods in the D&D world would band together to stop anyone killing Asmodeus. They don't want to not exist.

Let's say that the physical Asmodeus, whether in WotC or as a Dicefreaks Greater God is just an avatar of an Overgod. Is that acceptable for this exercise?

[Xefas]

Let's say that the physical Asmodeus, whether in WotC or as a Dicefreaks Greater God is just an avatar of an Overgod. Is that acceptable for this exercise?

I'm not the one who said that, actually- that was Incendius. But, yes, it would be, I think. That is, if we count Kefka's greatest form, why can't we count Asmodeus'?

Kefka turns from psychotic mystic clown to Big Final Boss Guy of Badassitude

Asmodeus turns from Ruler of Hell and all devilkind, creator of the laws of the multiverse to Overdeity of Brokeness.

Now, since his deific state is only ever hinted at, and not truly said to exist (at least in any official WotC books I've read), I don't think it really exists as of yet. It exists when WotC decides to release it actually exists and isn't just rumors.

And I also think that his current form is enough to defeat Kefka in any form.

[Hannes]

Kefka gets points for coolness, Asmodeus gets none for crappy name. Kefka wins!

[Vonriel]

I think that you people give Kefka way too much credit. He only managed to do what he did because people underestimated him until they finally realized it was too late. I think it says a lot when the "big bad ruler of the world" never fries your party with the light of judgement. They never even said why he didn't! He just didn't.

Asmodeus would eat Kefka whole, then try and figure out how to take his place and bring that world to its knees.

[Xefas]

Kefka gets points for coolness, Asmodeus gets none for crappy name. Kefka wins!

In the immortal words of Mr. Mutou "What the &#%@?! Did I just kill a gay clown?"

[Setra]

They fight for a few seconds, then fall in love.

Kefka wins at the following tonsil hockey though.

[Malroth]

Asmodeus takes the form of Professor Cid and isolates himself on a deserted Island with a comatose Celes. Once she wakes up Asmodeus/Cid pretends to die in order to throw Celes into a calculated fit of greif that motivates her to gather forces to destroy Kefka and return law to the world. Kefka waits in his tower with all his anti diety weapons ready for a showdown with asmodeus, only to have a bunch of ultra leveled adventurers that he assumed to be dead show up and take him down from the inside. Asmodeus laughs.

[SKarious]

The only reason Kefka doesn't fry the party with his LOJ, is because he knows they'll suffer more when they see their hometowns and loved ones destroyed first.
"Final" Kefka is an ultimate god of magic and creation, with at least 10 lesser gods/goddesses of many kinds as guardians and an army of evil creatures of many shapes and kinds.

On the other hand, every form of Kefka other than the final one is pretty much a wuss who would lose to the average fighter.

Would someone be so good as to post a link to this Asmodeus guy's stats?

[Ranis]

Gods, why this stuff again?

[Setra]

Gods, why this stuff again?
At least it's not the Forbidden Thread.

That was locked though.

[Duke Malagigi]

The only reason Kefka doesn't fry the party with his LOJ, is because he knows they'll suffer more when they see their hometowns and loved ones destroyed first.
"Final" Kefka is an ultimate god of magic and creation, with at least 10 lesser gods/goddesses of many kinds as guardians and an army of evil creatures of many shapes and kinds.

On the other hand, every form of Kefka other than the final one is pretty much a wuss who would lose to the average fighter.

Would someone be so good as to post a link to this Asmodeus guy's stats?

Asmodeus number one is found in the supplement The Book of Vile Darkness. It has 36 hit dice and a CR of 21.

Asmodeus number two is found on page 155 of Fiendish Codex II. It has 39 hit dice a CR of 24

Asmodeus number three is found in Gates of Hell Chapter Nine (http://community.dicefreaks.com/PDF/TGoH9.pdf) page 395. Just look at his Challenge Rating and Divine Ranks then tell me what you think.

So which one should Kefka be the most afraid of? Is it Asmodeus number one, Asmodeus number two or Asmodeus number three?

[Setra]

Looking at the third one..

I'd say Kefka is probably f- screwed.

I still say they fall in love though.

[Nightgaunt]

It depends, if both characters are allowed to fight within the rules systems of their universe it seems like Kefka is a shoe-in for victory. I mean his final form is listed as Level 71 and has 62,000 Hit points. Some of it's attacks can do 9,999 damage a pop, and ignore all spell resistance and never miss. Plus as it is Final fantasy, Asmodeous has to get through all 6 forms of Kefka and deal around 250,000+ points of damage total. And of course Kefka gets to attack 3-5 times a round. That would be hard to deal with. It looks like Kefka can kill all forms of Asmodeous in one round. While even if he did max damage Asmodeous can barely scratch Kefka. And as a final fantasy endboss Kefka is immune to all instant death attacks and all status effects. You can only do hit point damage to him.

But I'm a Kefka fan....

[Nerd-o-rama]

Asmodeus takes the form of Professor Cid and isolates himself on a deserted Island with a comatose Celes. Once she wakes up Asmodeus/Cid pretends to die in order to throw Celes into a calculated fit of greif that motivates her to gather forces to destroy Kefka and return law to the world. Kefka waits in his tower with all his anti diety weapons ready for a showdown with asmodeus, only to have a bunch of ultra leveled adventurers that he assumed to be dead show up and take him down from the inside. Asmodeus laughs.
Yeah, this idea is a pretty clear winner, and exactly what Asmodeus would do.

Asmodeus wins in general. Still leaves the "arena fight" where they just go at it in combat open to question though.

[Duke Malagigi]

Looking at the third one..

I'd say Kefka is probably f- screwed.

Not really, that's what Gates of Hell Belial for. Of course Asmodeus would have to beat Kefka unconcious first then transport the crazed clown god to Phlegethos for the Master of Pains and Suffering to deal with. Or he could just kill Kefka and get it over with.

[Setra]

Someone should turn Kefka into a D&D character.

He'd probably be a high level Sorcerer with some bizarre Prestige Class and possibly Divine Ranks.

My guess anyways.

[Duke Malagigi]

While he/she (I don't really know or care what sex this person is) hasn't statted him out yet, Dicefreaks' Kain Darkwind (one of the DICE who worked on The Gates of Hell) would make Pre Ruin Kefka a Rogue 15/Sorcerer 5 with Post World of Ruin Kefka being a Rogue 15/Sorcerer 5/Arcane Trickster 15 with a DvR of 9. Does that give you a good picture of what the fight would be like?

[SKarious]

Just read the "Gates of Hell" version. Kefka is soooo dead it isn't even funny.
The only thing worse than a well-prepared wizard/cleric with alter reality is ine that has it at will and is prepared for all encounters long before they happen. And the only thing worse than that is said wizard/cleric having an artifact that makes him invulnerable and lets him regenerate and fight again up to 4 times. Even kefka doesn't have enough ultimas for that.

And Malroth, your post rocks.

[Setra]

Pfft, all Kefka has to do is cast a quickened vanish, followed by doom, and the whole universe goes *poof*?
Hahaha, :smallbiggrin:

This is true.

[SKarious]

That doesn't work in the new version :smallfrown:

[Setra]

That doesn't work in the new version :smallfrown:
True.

The game's still easy as pie though.

[Raiser Blade]

When i seen asmodeus i immediatly thought of the snake from Redwall.

>_>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus_%28Redwall%29

Link to what i'm talking aboot.