PDA

View Full Version : Optimization Simple way to gain NI ability scores and free wishes for high-level wizards (PF)



rigsmal
2017-09-20, 01:49 PM
I think this works, and I'm posting it here to make sure it does.

The purpose of this simple trick is to get whatever result you want out of a Harrow Deck of Many Things as many times as you want. Obviously this implies NI ability scores and free wishes. This can be done at a very minimal cost to a level 17 caster. This trick doesn't require actually having the artifact.

1) Obtain the 195,000 gp wondrous item Silent Aviary. Read the description and laugh. You've probably already guessed the trick. This item can be crafted, bought, whatever.
2) Cast bilocation. You split into two bodies, which I will call Alice and Bob respectively.
3) Alice casts astral projection. Her astral body manifests a physical copy next to Bob.
4) Alice's astral body gives her newly-formed Silent Aviary copy to Bob.
5) Bob announces a draw from Silent Aviary. He decides on a specific card he wants.
6) Bob draws cards, and redraws until it is the card he wants.
6.5) If Bob gets the Cage, end the bilocation and astral projection, and then plane shift back to the material plane. Then go to step 2.
7) Bob gets the card he wants. By extension, Alice gains the benefits as well. The astral body's copy of the Silent Aviary now cannot be used by them.
8) Alice dismisses the astral projection and the astral body's copy of the Silent Aviary vanishes. Now dismiss bilocation and everything's back to normal.
9) Repeat by returning to step 2 as many times as desired.

Below I will address potential issues.

The Silent Aviary has been used, so we can't draw from it again. Specifically, the astral body's copy of the Silent Aviary has been used. This is a distinct item from the actual body's copy of the Silent Aviary. Quote:

...forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter...
The equipment is explicitly new, so it is exactly not the old one, which is the original Silent Aviary the wizard possessed. Hence, the wizard is only barred from using the new one, which is created every time the loop runs.

So long as the wizard never makes the mistake of drawing from the original Silent Aviary he possesses, this won't ever be an issue.

The drawn card's effect only affects Bob, not Alice. Explicitly mentioned in bilocation's description is the passage

The two bodies are affected by attacks, spells, and effects as though they were one person...
so the effects of Silent Aviary pass through.

This is too simple/dumb to be optimization. Won't disagree with you there. :smalltongue:

Wizard 17 is already broken, this means nothing. OK, sure, but now it's more broken. NI ability scores, free wishes, can dominate deities, can be omniscient... I mean, this is definitely icing on the cake. Was this achievable before? Maybe, I don't usually think about Pathfinder optimization.

Even in the best case scenario, when Bob beats the DC 20 Will save to avoid the Cage each redraw on any roll but a 1, it will take too long to get the desired card. Let's assume (as a trivial matter of optimization) that Bob can make the save on everything but a 1. Let's further assume that Bob only wants exactly 1 card, the rest can go sod off. So how likely long will it take for Bob to succeed? Plug the Mathematica code

n = X; Sum[(19/20)^{i - 1} (53/54)^{i - 1} (1/54), {i, 1, n}]
into WolframAlpha and substitute X with any number to get the probability of succeeding in fewer than X draws without hitting the Cage card. For example, the probability of taking less than 20 turns without hitting Cage

n = 20; Sum[(19/20)^{i - 1} (53/54)^{i - 1} (1/54), {i, 1, n}]
is roughly 0.2063, or 20.6%. So yes, it will probably take on average 5 restarts before you get the exact card you want, which is probably around 3-4 days for your average, unoptimized wizard. But getting a Harrow Deck of Many Hands benefit every 3-4 days is pretty good. And if you are perfectly happy taking any of the 24 mostly beneficial cards, then you have a 94.1% chance of getting a good card in under 20 draws without ever hitting Cage. That's at least 2 beneficial effects each day.

edit

Fixed step 6.5. Thanks to Psyren for pointing out the error.

Psyren
2017-09-20, 02:14 PM
6.5) If Bob gets the Cage, end the bilocation, return to Alice's body, and go to step 2.

This part won't work - both Alice and Bob will get immediately sucked into the Cage. Bilocation:


The two bodies are affected by attacks, spells, and effects as though they were one person, taking the worse effect when applicable.


The "worse effect" clause even means that it won't matter if one of your clones is astrally projecting, the real version of both of you gets sucked in, as that is the worse effect. And both of you projecting doesn't matter either, because the Cage doesn't actually kill you.

Having said that, a DC 20 will save isn't much of a barrier, though you might roll a natural 1 eventually - though of course, a Harrow DoMT has other negative cards in it that you'll have to save against to (and some that don't)

rigsmal
2017-09-20, 02:15 PM
This part won't work - both Alice and Bob will get immediately sucked into the Cage.

You're right, but I can amend that part. Just plane shift out, and the rest of the process continues as normal.


Having said that, a DC 20 will save isn't much of a barrier, though you might roll a natural 1 eventually - though of course, a Harrow DoMT has other negative cards in it that you'll have to save against to (and some that don't)

When you redraw as part of Silent Aviary, you ignore all the cards that came before your preferred card or Cage, whichever comes first.

Psyren
2017-09-20, 02:23 PM
When you redraw as part of Silent Aviary, you ignore all the cards that came before your preferred card or Cage, whichever comes first.

I mean that the deck is explicitly only usable once per day. I interpret this to mean you get a single draw and a single redraw each day, so it's indeed possible to land on a bad card before you can try again.

rigsmal
2017-09-20, 02:26 PM
I mean that the deck is explicitly only usable once per day. I interpret this to mean you get a single draw and a single redraw each day, so it's indeed possible to land on a bad card before you can try again.

Single draw, but it mentions that at any point in the drawing process, you may redraw. Quote from source:


...at any time during the drawing process, the user of the Silent Aviary may choose to immediately replace a drawn card. To do so, the user must simply utter a command phrase, put the rejected card back in the deck, and draw a new card to replace it. Only the effects of the replacement card are realized. However, every time a user rejects a card, he risks replacing it with the Cage card.

The text strongly suggests that you are expected to redraw multiple times.

Psyren
2017-09-20, 02:39 PM
Single draw, but it mentions that at any point in the drawing process, you may redraw. Quote from source:



The text strongly suggests that you are expected to redraw multiple times.

The drawing process, not the redrawing one. I think it's open to interpretation, and I think that interpretation results in fewer exploits - especially since what is essentially a craftable artifact somehow made it to print.

rigsmal
2017-09-20, 02:42 PM
The drawing process, not the redrawing one. I think it's open to interpretation, and I think that interpretation results in fewer exploits - especially since what is essentially a craftable artifact somehow made it to print.

I don't disagree with your point on interpretation, but the Silent Aviary can only ever been drawn once. Hence any multiple redraws (which are being referenced to) must happen on the same draw.

This is the purpose of astral projection, to repeatedly create Silent Aviary copies that may be drawn each time.

In a sense, I'm already interpreting the text in the least convenient possible way.

A more convenient interpretation is that Silent Aviary's text completely overwrites the HDoMT's text, in which case we literally do not even need any of this trick. We can just draw, redraw, and plane shift if we fail. Or draw, if we don't like the card, fail the save to not get Cage, plane shift, then try again.

But I believe these interpretations to be wrong and not well-supported, though they do make things easier.

edit

I also believe that the interpretation that it can only be used once by any given character (which necessarily implies that you can redraw as many times as you want on each draw) justifies the fact that it's a 195,000 gp artifact. Since you only get its benefit exactly once, whereas for the artifact you may benefit/fail as often as you want.

If multiple redraws referred to multiple draws, then this item is totally broken, and immediately gives us a way to get free wishes and NI ability scores.

Gusmo
2017-09-20, 03:51 PM
To me this is more about how Pathfinder failed to rewrite astral projection. Its abuses related to duplication were known, yet nothing was done, presumably because it's unlikely to ever affect a real table. Silent aviary is but one way to take advantage, and it's definitely got some amazing potential as you point out. I think it works by RAW, but I'm not going to look too closely.