THE best Two weapon fighter

[Aximili]

I searched the forum, and found nothing regarding this.

The matter is quite simple: which is the best Two weapon fighting Combo/Build?
The only critteria is that it... well... fights with two weapons:smalltongue:. Not unarmed strikes, or natural attacks, or shield bashings.

And just to be specific, as "best" I mean "best combination of damage, attack bonus, AC, and HP for a few rounds". That is good at combat in general, and not just stupendous damage at the first round at the cost of to-hit.

Sorry if I'm being picky:smallredface:, I was curious as to what was THE two weapon fighting build. You hear about shock troopers and the trip monley battlefield controller, but I don't recall having seen a TWF build that shadows the other.

[Talkkno]

MOst likely something in here..
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013
Though, I'd like to warn you a two handed one is most likely superior in most situations.
For humor
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Other/Tales_of_Symphonia_v01_cover_c.jpg

[Zincorium]

Revenant blade from the eberron setting + frenzied berserker. With leap attack and spirited charge. And whatever else floats your boat.

Revenant blade's capstone ability is that both sides of a double scimitar are considered two handed weapons for the purposes of power attacking and strength bonus. And this is at level five, for a prc that'd be pretty cool without it.

So, x4 return and 1.5 x (really freaking high) strength, for both, along with the 18-20 crit range. The fact that you're only doing a base d6 is pretty much totally irrelevant. Start with ranger 2/barbarian 1/fighter 2 to meet all of the prereqs and go crazy. Use the barbarian variant from complete champion to remove the inability to power attack on a charge, revenant blades do very well from horseback so speed isn't a problem.

Edit:

Talkkno, could you pretty pretty please put spoiler tags on the comic? It's funny and all, but it takes up way too much space.

[Mr. Moogle]

Easy... a fighter with weapon proficiency bastard sword, two weapon fighting, and oversized two wepon fighing (complete adventurer).

Its by far the best build ive ever seen/created beacause the penaltys are -2/-2 and you do 2d10 a round.

EDIT: using the same mechanic with Warmaces (1d12 damage) is actually better

[Arbitrarity]

Revenant blade from the eberron setting + frenzied berserker. With leap attack and spirited charge. And whatever else floats your boat.

Revenant blade's capstone ability is that both sides of a double scimitar are considered two handed weapons for the purposes of power attacking and strength bonus. And this is at level five, for a prc that'd be pretty cool without it.

So, x4 return and 1.5 x (really freaking high) strength, for both, along with the 18-20 crit range. The fact that you're only doing a base d6 is pretty much totally irrelevant. Start with ranger 2/barbarian 1/fighter 2 to meet all of the prereqs and go crazy. Use the barbarian variant from complete champion to remove the inability to power attack on a charge, revenant blades do very well from horseback so speed isn't a problem.



You can already power attack on a charge. The variant is pounce, so you can full attack. Don't forget shock trooper and leap attack, for a shiny *6 (or is it *5? :smallconfused: ) return, and no pain on your attack rolls.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, I'm looking at something like a Fighter/Swashbuckler/Exotic Weapon Master.

Use Kamas. Free Weapon Finesse, Insightful Strike. Bonus feats coming out of unspeakable places which will allow you to do things besides two-weapon fight.
(I'm imagining Improved Cleave and Greater TWF working in Unholy Co-ordination, here.)

[Arbitrarity]

Meh. If multiweapon fighting is legal, a thri-kreen with revenant blade and FB would probably be best. (if possible pre-epic). With a 6* return on PA, 14 attacks, pounce, and shock trooper, +19 BAB, we can get a shiny 2016 damage before strength, enhancement, or base weapon damage.

[Aximili]

now that you guys mentioned it, I do recall having heard of a PrC with double scimitars, I'll take a look at it.

And by the way, I know twf is not as effective as thf, not a problem. Actually, I don't even know if these informations will once become a character of mine. I'm just looking around for inspiration.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
But what about the ToB? Do Swordsages and Warblades make lousy TWFers?

[Zincorium]

You can already power attack on a charge. The variant is pounce, so you can full attack. Don't forget shock trooper and leap attack, for a shiny *6 (or is it *5? :smallconfused: ) return, and no pain on your attack rolls.

Grr, I got all garbled up, but trust me, I did know what I intended to say regardless of the blatantly wrong results. Leap attack kind of adds weirdly with supreme power attack, so be sure and download the latest errata if you're going to use it, as it stands you gain a *5 return, as you're adding 300% of power attack damage to your base 100% (a 2 for 1 return) for supreme power attack and then another 100% from leap attack, for a total of 500% of normal power attack damage.

Or at least that's what I got from it, this is getting to the complexity level of turning or grapples.

Shock trooper is wonderful if you can get the spare feats for it, through flaws or whatever, as it is the prereqs for revenant blade and frenzied berserker take up all feats you normally get with the build I mentioned up til you start taking frenzied berserker. And that's still without improved or greater TWF, which you'll have to spend the feats at 12, 15, or 18 on.


Meh. If multiweapon fighting is legal, a thri-kreen with revenant blade and FB would probably be best. (if possible pre-epic). With a 6* return on PA, 14 attacks, pounce, and shock trooper, +19 BAB, we can get a shiny 2016 damage before strength, enhancement, or base weapon damage.

Thri-keen cannot even take revenant blade without significant houseruling, as not only does it have a racial prerequisite, it also has a racial-only feat as a prerequisite.

Thri-keen aren't elves, they eat elves.

[Arbitrarity]

Ah, never mind :smallbiggrin:

This is a result of not knowing the prereqs on a PrC. I'll go with you here then, as 2HF with two weapons is basically better.

To quote: "Elf meat is like SOLID CRACK to Thri-Kreen"

[goat]

So it might need a few levels of Ruathar too...

[Arbitrarity]

A swordsage with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and shadow blade for dex to damage, as well as weapon finesse, isn't too shabby. Dex and wis to damage, 18 attacks, 10 of those at max to-hit.

[brian c]

now that you guys mentioned it, I do recall having heard of a PrC with double scimitars, I'll take a look at it.

And by the way, I know twf is not as effective as thf, not a problem. Actually, I don't even know if these informations will once become a character of mine. I'm just looking around for inspiration.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
But what about the ToB? Do Swordsages and Warblades make lousy TWFers?


A swordsage with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and shadow blade for dex to damage, as well as weapon finesse, isn't too shabby. Dex and wis to damage, 18 attacks, 10 of those at max to-hit.

Tiger Claw maneuvers are great for TWF. The Bloodclaw Master PrC can take away all TWF attack penalties (if you're using Tiger Claw weapons). Girallon Windmill Fleshrip is a Tiger Claw maneuver that gives you rend damage based on how many attacks hit, so Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still+GWFR can do some ridiculous damage (course, you'd have to be Swordsage 20 to do two boosts at once, as a Warblade or Bloodclaw it's not quite as potent).

[Aximili]

Tiger Claw maneuvers are great for TWF. The Bloodclaw Master PrC can take away all TWF attack penalties (if you're using Tiger Claw weapons). Girallon Windmill Fleshrip is a Tiger Claw maneuver that gives you rend damage based on how many attacks hit, so Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still+GWFR can do some ridiculous damage (course, you'd have to be Swordsage 20 to do two boosts at once, as a Warblade or Bloodclaw it's not quite as potent).

The problem with Bloodclaw master is that you have to choose between taking away the penalties or benefiting from Shadow Blade.
And the swordsage really seems to lack the feats needed for a TWFer, though a couple levels of fighter can certainly solve that.


And as for the Revenant Blade, it is so obviously a combo-machine! And, all in all, it really looks like a very inventive class feature.

[NEO|Phyte]

The problem with Bloodclaw master is that you have to choose between taking away the penalties or benefiting from Shadow Blade.

How so? The TWF penalty removal does not require being in a Tiger Claw stance, and daggers and unarmed strikes both overlap in regards to weapons that function for both abilities.

[Aximili]

How so? The TWF penalty removal does not require being in a Tiger Claw stance, and daggers and unarmed strikes both overlap in regards to weapons that function for both abilities.
Actually, I said it because the 2 disciplines had no weapons in common (except for unarmed strike, but I'm counting it out). But, or course, I had forgotten that the PrC allows daggers too.:smallbiggrin:

[Zincorium]

Actually, I said it because the 2 disciplines had no weapons in common (except for unarmed strike, but I'm counting it out). But, or course, I had forgotten that the PrC allows daggers too.:smallbiggrin:

Daggers...the bread and meat of most good TWF builds.

[RAGE KING!]

Easy... a fighter with weapon proficiency bastard sword, two weapon fighting, and oversized two wepon fighing (complete adventurer).

Its by far the best build ive ever seen/created beacause the penaltys are -2/-2 and you do 2d10 a round.

EDIT: using the same mechanic with Warmaces (1d12 damage) is actually better

meh, you can do better than that with less feats and oversized weapons. I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

[Reel On, Love]

The best (reasonable) Strength-best two-weapon fighter is the Revenant Blade/Frenzied Berserker mentioned previously.

The best Dex-based is either a Swordsage 14/Bloodclaw Master 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2 or a Cloistered Cleric 4/Swordsage 1/Ordained Champion 5/Church Inquisitor 10, thanks to the Complete Champion (and Knowledge Devotion, Gauntlets of War, the Holy Warrior reserve feat, Ordained Champion's Fist of the Gods ability, etc)--I've seen a build that winds up doing over 50 damage with each of eight attacks, and can cast 9th-level spells to boot.

ETA Bloodclaw Master, like Jack mentioned, to the Swordsage build.

[Jack Mann]

Two levels of bloodclaw master are damned near mandatory for a good two-weapon specialist. Loss of penalties and full strength to the off-hand? Yes please! Add in shadow blade for daggers (or the unarmed swordsage variant) and you've got something tasty going on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swordsage. Tiger Claw + Shadow Hand. Duo-wielding weapons will give you insane bonuses, and plenty of Shadow Hand stuff gives you additional precision damage on all strikes, like Assassin's Stance. Don't forget Desert Wind for extra mobility and damage output.

Alternately, if you're wanting insane precision damage...

Rogue X/Fighter2/Sorc1/Nightsong Enforcer/Dervish

Sorcerer dip gives you Golembane and one other spell of choice. You can't use it from an item because it only works on attacks done that round, so you need a dip to get it. Since this also gives you the ability to use any wand you want without needing UMD, this is worth the level dip. Nightsong Enforcer gives full BAB and Sneak Attack progression. Dervish lets you dish out insane number of attacks.

As another alternate...

Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 2/Swordsage 2/Nightsong Enforcer9

This build focuses entirely on a TWF rogue. Here's the fun part... for Rogue, trade up Evasion for Spell reflection (Complete Arcane or maybe Complete Mage, can't remember) and trade up Uncanny Dodge for the PhBII variant which lets you give a target a -5 to AC instead of sneak attacking. Why? Well, Shadowdancer 2 gives you both evasion and uncanny dodge anyways, so you're effectively getting free extra benefits. Swordsage not only gives you maneuvers which can make your opponent flat-footed, for sneak attacking, and touch attacks, for when opponent is already flat-footed to make sure you can't miss, but you also get a couple of stances. I'd suggest Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack and Wall of Blades for vastly easier flanking, which gives sneak attacks. And of course, Nightsong Enforcer for more SA goodness with full BAB.

[The Gilded Duke]

meh, you can do better than that with less feats and oversized weapons. I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

Be an Ettin. Unfortunatly the wording of improved two weapon fighting and other feats sets your penalty at a different number, instead of lowering the penalty, or giving you a bonus to attack.

Not quite the same thing, but I usually prefer Flurry of Blows builds or additional attacks upon hit build. (Fist of Forest, Snap Kick, Frostrager)

Warforged/Fist of Forest/Frostrager is one build I have been tinkering with for a while. Warforged can use battlefists, which allow them to use the battlefist to give natural attacks and unarmed strikes weapon abilities, while you use the amulet of natural attacks to give attack bonuses. Battlefist also increases natural attack and unarmed strike size by one.

Four attacks on a charge without using spells is nice. Can get an additional one if you pick up two weapon pounce... but that requires dex and too many feats.

If you are allowed to use alternate class features use a Lion Totem (Complete Champion version) and Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed?) Barbarian getting in. Extra attack while raging and pounce.

What is confusing me about the build is how the various methods of unarmed strike levels work. Frostrager specifically sets unarmed strikes at a certain amount during a rage. Fist of Forest specifically sets unarmed strikes at a better level. Are these treated as size increases, or just specifically being set?

One of my favorite ones is a bit odd:
Monk/Druid/Psionic Fist/Illithid Slayer

Monk gives you access to Flurry of Blows. Quarterstaffs are a flurryable weapon, and can be wielded two handed. A level of druid gives you Shilleagh which makes a non magical quarterstaff do damage as if it was two size categories bigger. Then use the psionic warrior enlarge power. Then use psionic lion's charge. Try to use enough of Illithid Slayer to get you four attacks by 20th level (or otherwise arrange things to get the most attacks possible)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

The Tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer.

[Jack Mann]

Or the aforementioned bloodclaw master, for just a two-level investment.

[brian c]

Or the aforementioned bloodclaw master, for just a two-level investment.

With certain weapons (although I don't know enough about Tempest to say what restrictions, if any, are on that).

Also, I think there's an epic feat, but frankly if you're in Epic levels and you're doing TWF then it doesn't matter what feats you have, you're dead anyway.

[Leon]

The Tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer.

I like that with a lead in of Ranger to cover the Prereq's - while not fully utilizing the benifits of the class i use a Quarterstaff and the Style feat from complete warrior = Lots of style and beating on things with 6ft of solid Darkwood

[Swooper]

Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/LT Barbarian 1 (with the Whirling Frenzy variant).

Relevant feats? Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, Greater Two Weapon Fighting and, the kicker, Stormguard Warrior. All prereq feats of course.

Important gear? Valorous Speed Shortsword, Valorous Speed Longsword, Master Tiger Claw Bracers with Raging Mongoose, Gloves of Dex +6, Belt of Str +6. Useful: Boots of Striding & Springing, or other speedboosting item.

Important manouvers? Shadow Blink. Others, like Raging Mongoose, Avalanche of Blades, White Raven Tactics and Lightning Recovery, are optional.

Tactics:
Round 1: Charge+rage. Full attack via pounce, use Raging Mongoose now, all attacks are touch attacks according to Combat Rythm from SGW. On the enemy's turn he will likely full attack you, assuming four attacks and two of which hit, you get 6 AoOs from Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Use Channel the Storm here, forfeiting your AoOs. No damage done this round.

Round 2: Shadow Blink 50' away, charge again. Full attack with pounce. The valourous weapons double the damage here, and with all the stacking effects of combat rythm and channel the storm, the total damage here is ludicrous. Also, all attacks are at +24 to hit, so they shouldn't miss. The avarage damage, assuming no criticals is... hold tight:

2090. (Might vary a bit depending on individual Str score, this is assuming a total of 30 with gloves belt)

Let me know if you want the detailed calculations. This build is not created by me, I'm only the messenger. Also, this is extremely cheesy. Don't use this.

[Prince_of_Blades]

What about Master Thrower? Use daggers with Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike. Add in some Bloodstorm Blade to get your daggers to come back. You can get a massive number of (touch) attacks, with Dex and Int to damage.

[Telonius]

I suppose I'd be pelted with tomatoes if I suggested a Wizard who summoned something that fights with two swords ... :smallbiggrin:

[brian c]

Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/LT Barbarian 1 (with the Whirling Frenzy variant).

Relevant feats? Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, Greater Two Weapon Fighting and, the kicker, Stormguard Warrior. All prereq feats of course.

Important gear? Valorous Speed Shortsword, Valorous Speed Longsword, Master Tiger Claw Bracers with Raging Mongoose, Gloves of Dex +6, Belt of Str +6. Useful: Boots of Striding & Springing, or other speedboosting item.

Important manouvers? Shadow Blink. Others, like Raging Mongoose, Avalanche of Blades, White Raven Tactics and Lightning Recovery, are optional.

Tactics:
Round 1: Charge+rage. Full attack via pounce, use Raging Mongoose now, all attacks are touch attacks according to Combat Rythm from SGW. On the enemy's turn he will likely full attack you, assuming four attacks and two of which hit, you get 6 AoOs from Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Use Channel the Storm here, forfeiting your AoOs. No damage done this round.

Round 2: Shadow Blink 50' away, charge again. Full attack with pounce. The valourous weapons double the damage here, and with all the stacking effects of combat rythm and channel the storm, the total damage here is ludicrous. Also, all attacks are at +24 to hit, so they shouldn't miss. The avarage damage, assuming no criticals is... hold tight:

2090. (Might vary a bit depending on individual Str score, this is assuming a total of 30 with gloves belt)

Let me know if you want the detailed calculations. This build is not created by me, I'm only the messenger. Also, this is extremely cheesy. Don't use this.

That's pretty impressive. The Swordsage build that I presented for the Balor Marathon challenge did 500 or so damage on average in the first round of combat, minimum 270, and that was dual-wielding Kukris, so good chance of criticals.





I suppose I'd be pelted with tomatoes if I suggested a Wizard who summoned something that fights with two swords ... :smallbiggrin:

No, you'd be pelted with tomatoes if you suggested an Artificer with two wands though.

[Lavidor]

now that you guys mentioned it, I do recall having heard of a PrC with double scimitars, I'll take a look at it.

<snip>

Would Dervish from CW be the double scimitar PrC you are looking for? It treats scimitars as light weapons, and has a capstone ability of doubling attacks per round and getting Great Cleave when in a dance. I did the math, and you can get 14 attacks (minus cleave) at 16th level with TWF. Of course, it might just sound good, but still.

[Logic]

Add a Sunblade to most decent TWF builds, and you are probably doing well. It seems built for TWF.

[Rasumichin]

Would Dervish from CW be the double scimitar PrC you are looking for? It treats scimitars as light weapons, and has a capstone ability of doubling attacks per round and getting Great Cleave when in a dance. I did the math, and you can get 14 attacks (minus cleave) at 16th level with TWF. Of course, it might just sound good, but still.

Now that you mention it, just today i found out that there's obviously a bunch of guys over here in Germany who consider dervish to be the best fighting PrC EVER.

Don't know if they're right, though.

You might take a look at the discussion if your German is sufficient and you are willing to read 9 pages of vehement flaming :

http://forum.dnd-gate.de/viewtopic.php?t=15552

[Aximili]

(...)
That... is... awesome. (I mean, for a TWF:smallwink:)

And Lavidor,
no, I was looking for the revenant blade, and found it in the Player's Guid to Faerun.

[Zincorium]

no, I was looking for the revenant blade, and found it in the Player's Guide to Faerun.

....

Methinks someone has been cutting and pasting passages from one of your books into another.

And dervish is one of the best melee combat prestige classes, but it only works well for certain roles. The main thing it gives you is the chance to make multiple attacks while still remaining mobile, although it doesn't always work out perfectly.

[Person_Man]

The "best" build depends on your ECL, what books have available, and what you want to maximize or balance (average damage per turn, ability to survive, Skills, etc).

Strong elements include:



Full TWF feat tree: Duh.

Spells: As always, one of the most potent ways to get a ton of damage is to buff yourself into demi-godhood and then beat the tar out of people. But many people consider this "broken." Frankly, I just believe it requires you to play with an experienced group using somewhat optimized builds.

Pounce: There are thirty-something plus ways to get this. If you can't make a full attack on a charge when you need to, you haven't bothered trying.

Power Attack->Leap Attack->Shock Trooper: This is debatable. Clearly, this is the simplest way of getting a massive damage output when combined with Pounce and TWF. But after your attack, your AC is garbage. And since you don't have a reach weapon, you're pretty much at the mercy of any surviving enemies. So you better have high DR or a way of healing quickly.

Improved Unarmed Strike or Oversized TWF: Lets Power Attack count for your off-hand attack without incurring any additional penalties. Obviously not needed if you can get your damage combo without Power Attack.

Battle Jump: Double damage on a charge when you make an insane Jump check or drop on your enemy from above. Unappouchable East

Headlong Rush: Double damage on a charge, provoke an AoO from anyone who threatens you along the way, including the target of your charge. Orcish blood only. Races of Faerun. Works really well with...

Double Hit: When making an attack of opportunity, you may make an attack with your offhand against the same target at the same time. Works phenominally well with...

Karmic Strike: Enemy hits you, you hit enemy (twice with Double Hit). From Complete Warrior. Should always be combined with...

Vampiric Blade/Claws of the Vampire: Psionic power. You heal 50% of the damage you deal. Also known as the "King of Smack" build. Solves the Shock Trooper low AC problem.

Robilar's Gambit: Enemy swings at you, you hit enemy. PHBII. At this point you're probably figured out that having an insanely high Dex and using a Finnesse-able weapon is more important then a high Str, lest you run out of AoO.

Pyrokineticist: 1 level gets you an all day flame whip that makes touch attacks and can be used with all other feats normally (Power Attack et al). And before you ask, no, you cannot manifest 2 fire lashes. Your other weapon must be a mundane one, like a dagger whip. FYI, whips provoke AoO from enemies when you attack while adjacent to them, making the above AoO combo possible on every attack, not just charges.

Flame Blade: The Druid Spell. Gives you a scimitar that hits on touch attacks. Who cares about Str bonuses when you're hitting your enemy so many times? A Wand of Flame Blade is cheap and lasts for 3 minute minutes. Invest in a few ranks of UMD and you're set.

Precision Damage: In general, its impossible for a non-Tome of Battle TWF build to pull off meaningful damage at low levels without this, because all of your feats are invested in the TWF tree. But at higher levels Precision damage doesn't scale particularly well, and you're going to run into a lot of Precision immune enemies (which you can get around with the right build or items).

Ability Damage: Although this won't kill enemies as quickly as regular damage in most cases, Ability Damage works wonders against single powerful monsters. The easiest ways of getting it without spells are the Rogue's Crippling Stike (2 points of Str damage), the Psychic Rogue/Assassin's Mind Cripple (2 points of Int damage), the standard Wounding weapon (1 point of Con damage), and Touch of Golden Ice (1d4 Dex damage, but it allows a Save with a DC that never improves, and has other restrictions).

Duskblade: At 13th level you can channel your spells into a full attack. TWF gives you tons of attacks.

Smite Evil + Divine Might: Sort of an honorable mention. Doesn't scale particularly well, but it does apply to all attacks that round. But some people love their Paladins, so a TWF Paladin isn't that bad of an idea.

Flurry: Even more attacks. Yes, I know the Monk sucks. But there are several decent Monk PrC out there whose levels stack for Flurry. Also, Monk's get Stunning Fist and eventually Freezing the Lifeblood. If you Stun/Paralyze your enemy and then follow up with an additional 2+ attacks, your enemy should pretty much be totally screwed.

Fear: There are a few PrC and magic items that make your enemy Save vs. Fear every time you attack. Fear effects stack, and quickly screw your enemy. The best PrC for this is the Disciple of the Eye, from Races of the Dragon, which makes your enemy Save every time he ROLLS to attack, and his levels stack for Flurry. But like Precision damage, this is less useful at higher levels, because plenty of things are immune to Fear.

Grapple: Wait, what? Here me out: Maximize your unarmed damage (there are numerous ways to get it to 6d8+ range by mid levels). With Scorpions Grasp from Sandstorm, you get a free Grapple check whenever you hit your enemy. Punch your enemy. Once you pass your Grapple check, you deal unarmed damage (again) for free, essentially giving you yet another free attack. Assuming you're making a Full Attack or Pounce, you can finish off your attack routine against your foe. And because he's Grappled he loses his Dex bonus to AC, which means he should be quite easy to beat the tar out of, and he qualifies for Precision damage.

Rend: Several ways to get this. Basically adds an additional attack.

Tome of Battle: There's dozens of ways to improve TWF or use a PrC with a ton of attacks to your advantage. FYI, avoid most Standard action manuevers that only grant a single attack, as TWF obviously requires a Full Attack or Pounce to be useful.

Personally, I think it's pointless to waste levels on special PrC that reduces your TWF attack penalty to 0, because there are tons of ways to ensure that you're going to hit most of the time. A -2 penalty to hit is a joke, so why throw away precious class levels in order to get rid of it?

Find a high damage combo that works for you and run with it. Then for gods sakes, diversify. TWF builds are intensely feat heavy and usually entirely focused on close range melee attacks. If you put all your eggs in one basket, it will be the greatest basket ever. But once your DM throws something at you that isn't bothered by melee attacks, you're screwed. Thus its critically important that TWF builds find a way to Fly, get something close to Freedom of Movement and True Sight, have two Ghost Touch weapons in your belt, etc.

[TempusCCK]

What book is the Bloodclaw Master or whatever in?

And, as mentioned, a good thing to pick up is the Two-Weapon Rend Feat from PHBII, nothing special, but a an extra D6 on attacks is nice.

[skywalker]

With certain weapons (although I don't know enough about Tempest to say what restrictions, if any, are on that).

Also, I think there's an epic feat, but frankly if you're in Epic levels and you're doing TWF then it doesn't matter what feats you have, you're dead anyway.


Oh, but you look SO. DAMN. COOL.

Right?

Don't you?

[Blue Paladin]

Hey Person_Man, just a few issues I had with your list:


Fear: ... Disciple of the Eye, from Races of the Dragon, which makes your enemy Save every time he ROLLS to attack...I heard about this one recently, so I made my gleeful way through the book to get the juicy details. A major strike against this is the fact that as soon as the target saves once, he's immune to that ability (from you) for 24 hours.


Grapple: ...because he's Grappled he loses his Dex bonus to AC...He gets to keep his Dex bonus against you (and anyone else in the grapple); he's denied Dex against everyone else.

And my contribution comes under:

Tome of Battle: Find a boost that works for you. I suggest something in the Desert Wind line. Burning Blade is a nice start; Inferno Blade is even better. For Stances, Leading the Charge is good, especially if you've got some kind of Pounce from PM's list above. Tiger Claw's Mongoose boosts net you extra attacks. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip damage increases per successful hit. And of course, Time Stands Still lets you take two rounds of full-attacks in a row.

[brian c]

What book is the Bloodclaw Master or whatever in?

And, as mentioned, a good thing to pick up is the Two-Weapon Rend Feat from PHBII, nothing special, but a an extra D6 on attacks is nice.

Tome of Battle. It's mostly accessible for martial adepts, but since the only ToB-esque pre-req is 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers, that means almost anyone can get in with 3 feats (also requires TWF).

[Flawless]

Bloodclaw Master is rather meh...
No penalties for TWF is nice , but you loose at least one point of BAB, two if you go all 5 levels.
Full STR to off-hand is nice as well, but rather insignificant (as a swordsage you will rely on DEX anyway).
And you have to be a martial adept to qualify for the PrC, but it only advances Bloodclaw maneuvers. I'd rather play a straight Swordsage or Warblade than take levels in Bloodclaw Master.

[Gralamin]

Bloodclaw Master is rather meh...
No penalties for TWF is nice , but you loose at least one point of BAB, two if you go all 5 levels.
Full STR to off-hand is nice as well, but rather insignificant (as a swordsage you will rely on DEX anyway).
And you have to be a martial adept to qualify for the PrC, but it only advances Bloodclaw maneuvers. I'd rather play a straight Swordsage or Warblade than take levels in Bloodclaw Master.

While true for most things, It is not true for a Thri-kreen.

[Person_Man]

Hey Person_Man, just a few issues I had with your list:

I heard about this one recently, so I made my gleeful way through the book to get the juicy details. A major strike against this is the fact that as soon as the target saves once, he's immune to that ability (from you) for 24 hours.

That is correct. But your target need only fail 2 Saves to become Frightened, which means that it flees, potentially provoking AoO and putting it out of commission long enough for you or someone else to kill it. And the Save DC is based on you CHARACTER level, so it continues to progress no matter what. And you can use TWF and Flurry with thrown weapons, which means you can essentially roll to hit (and force every enemy on the battlefield) to Save vs. Fear. You don't even have to hit them to force them to Save. And the PrC has a secondary Fear ability that you can activiate as a Swift Action (which the target can't gain immunity to), and it gets Darkvision and Blindsense. As I mentioned, a Disciple of the Eye build will have a tough time against Fear immune enemies, but he's still pretty darn potent in my book.



He gets to keep his Dex bonus against you (and anyone else in the grapple); he's denied Dex against everyone else.

Whoops. Good catch. I guess your TWF build needs to work with a Grapple build then.

[Generic PC]

Why not use a Thrikeen (Monstrous Humanoid2/Fighter3/Dervish10)and get Slashing Flurry(PHB2) as a Fighter Bonus Feat? have 4 Speed Scimitars, and you already get 12 attacks from BaB alone, +4 from Slashing Flurry, +4 from Speed. 20 attacks, plus Multiweapon Fighting for a -4 to each attack. ECL 17

[AtomicKitKat]

Why not use a Thrikeen (Monstrous Humanoid2/Fighter3/Dervish10)and get Slashing Flurry(PHB2) as a Fighter Bonus Feat? have 4 Speed Scimitars, and you already get 12 attacks from BaB alone, +4 from Slashing Flurry, +4 from Speed. 20 attacks, plus Multiweapon Fighting for a -4 to each attack. ECL 17

Speed interpretation is questionable, I'm fairly certain Slashing Flurry only adds 1 attack per round/standard action, and I think Slashing Flurry gives you a -5 penalty to all attacks made in the round.

[Aximili]

The "best" build depends on your ECL, what books have available, and what you want to maximize or balance (average damage per turn, ability to survive, Skills, etc).
Well, I didn't have any specific ECL in mind, but the actual idea mas to see something that had the vest average damage per turn and ability to survive.
All the stuff that everyone posted has given me quite a good idea of the best routes to maxing a TWFer. So... since I will, under no circumstances, take the time to put down in numbers a couple of 20 level builds that I'm really not gonna play so soon, I am happy to only know the top builds, instead of the build.


Find a high damage combo that works for you and run with it. Then for gods sakes, diversify. TWF builds are intensely feat heavy and usually entirely focused on close range melee attacks. If you put all your eggs in one basket, it will be the greatest basket ever. But once your DM throws something at you that isn't bothered by melee attacks, you're screwed. Thus its critically important that TWF builds find a way to Fly, get something close to Freedom of Movement and True Sight, have two Ghost Touch weapons in your belt, etc.
Don't sweat it. Diversity is always the top priority of my characters. Even more important than optimizing damage is making sure you'll never be killed/nullified by a single spell (almost never, at least) .

[kethcrotty]

Meh. If multiweapon fighting is legal, a thri-kreen with revenant blade and FB would probably be best. (if possible pre-epic). With a 6* return on PA, 14 attacks, pounce, and shock trooper, +19 BAB, we can get a shiny 2016 damage before strength, enhancement, or base weapon damage.

Awesome!

Thanks Arbirarity.

I am trying to put together a Ferral Thrikreen FB.

I am not that experienced with the game however and I am having a hard time working out all the details. Is there any chance you could show what this would look like mapped out? I am not that familiar with the Revenant blade but I will look it up.

I love the idea of this however.

Thanks!