Salient Divine Abilities and How to Fix Them

[Vreejack]

The SDA's look like a bunch of BS that someone tossed together without any testing whatsoever. These are some of the cheesiest rules in all of D&D. Has anyone come up with something like a balanced replacement for them?

[ExLibrisMortis]

... What.

Salient divine abilities are not cheesy. Some are extremely powerful, granted, but they are straightforwardly intended as such, which means they are not cheese. Deities are just that powerful.

[Venger]

The SDA's look like a bunch of BS that someone tossed together without any testing whatsoever. These are some of the cheesiest rules in all of D&D. Has anyone come up with something like a balanced replacement for them?

because that's exactly what they are.

what exactly are you looking for? that's a very broad question. do you want to roll your own gods? restat anyone in particular?

[Gullintanni]

On the one hand, I think Deities having stats other than "I win: Yes", is actually a step towards a balance point. That said, the internal balance between Deities is horrendous, with some being weak to the point of vulnerability to high level PCs, to others having access to Alter Reality.

I'm all for building a library of more interally balanced SDA's, but powers like Alter Reality really should set the standard for what Deities ought to be able to achieve, IMHO.

[Psyren]

As others have mentioned, they're designed for gods. "Balance" is far from the main consideration for them, and expecting it to be is silly.

[rigsmal]

Hmm... I wonder if I would stat the Lady of Pain as a deity, or whether she exists beyond such statistics.

[Psyren]

Hmm... I wonder if I would stat the Lady of Pain as a deity, or whether she exists beyond such statistics.

She has "stats" but they're basically a meme that roughly translates to the latter.

[Big Fau]

The SDA's look like a bunch of BS that someone tossed together without any testing whatsoever. These are some of the cheesiest rules in all of D&D. Has anyone come up with something like a balanced replacement for them?

Welcome to 3.X Epic-level gameplay. SDAs in the hands of players makes very little sense, as the game essentially devolves into pretend with no rules beyond the DM deciding to end the campaign. This is true of almost all Epic-level abilities, and there's not really a good answer.

Godhood is an exponential power boost on top of an already exponential growth system. It is inherently broken, and fixing it requires essentially discarding the whole book and starting from scratch.

[gkathellar]

The best way to fix them is to get rid of them entirely, along with Divine Rank. Powers in the Great Wheel cosmology cannot be fought under normal circumstances, and their battles with each other are indirect and/or so immense as to border on purely conceptual. If you want gods outside of the Great Wheel to have stats, Divine Rank is a crappy system for representing them - devise something new.


Hmm... I wonder if I would stat the Lady of Pain as a deity, or whether she exists beyond such statistics.

As was stated the moment she first appeared: the Lady of Pain is not a character. Her Serenity is a plot device and/or setting element. You can no more fight her than they can fight the mathematical ratio of PI, or the number of seconds in a minute. On the rare occasion she has been delayed, it has been by pitting her against herself (see also: Die! Vecna Die!), and even then, the measure was short-lived and led to the perpetrator getting punted across the planes.

[Nifft]

The SDA's look like a bunch of BS that someone tossed together without any testing whatsoever. These are some of the cheesiest rules in all of D&D. Has anyone come up with something like a balanced replacement for them?

The least-cheesy way to interact with gods might be to use a different rule set entirely, like Nobilis or something.

If you want to play within the D&D framework, you'll probably want to also fix the Epic rules so they're not as horrible to non-casters.

Certainly you'll want to eliminate or re-write the Alter Reality SDA. Probably you'll want to put some limits on the Arcane Mastery SDA. Etc., etc.

[rigsmal]

As was stated the moment she first appeared: the Lady of Pain is not a character. Her Serenity is a plot device and/or setting element. You can no more fight her than they can fight the mathematical ratio of PI, or the number of seconds in a minute. On the rare occasion she has been delayed, it has been by pitting her against herself (see also: Die! Vecna Die!), and even then, the measure was short-lived and led to the perpetrator getting punted across the planes.

Do we have examples of other beings like the Lady? Overdeities, perhaps? Do we even have an example of an overdeity doing anything in any of the D&D settings?

[gkathellar]

Do we have examples of other beings like the Lady? Overdeities, perhaps? Do we even have an example of an overdeity doing anything in any of the D&D settings?

It's not clear that Overdeities are in the same class in the Lady, or even what they are. It's speculated that they are the ultimate authority in a Crystal Sphere, and that the gods doing business in a sphere must answer to them. We have two: Ao, from Toril; and Highfather, from Krynn.

Takhisis once took an oath on Highfather's name. Otherwise, we know little. He's thought to have been an indirect hand in bringing the 5th Age to an end, IIRC.

Ao is far better known, mostly for his role in the Time of Troubles. When a god tried to steal Ao's Tablets of Fate, he proceeded to yank every single power affiliated with Toril off of the Planes, shoved them into Avatar form on his sphere, and essentially let them kill each other until his point was made. This includes gods like Lolth, Gruumsh, and the entire Pharaonic pantheon: ultra powerful entities with influence across thousands or tens of thousands of worlds. Ao took dozens of gods like that and gave them a time out. He cares not for worship, and imposes some unique rules on Toril's divine magic and its cycle of souls.

The main parallels between Overdeities and Her Serenity are apparent unstoppability (she once willed a Greater Deity to asplode for treading on her toes), jealous guardianship of their domains, and total disinterest in mortal affairs. In either case, stats would be inappropriate - they exist to enforce and explain certain rules of their settings.

[VisitingDaGulag]

How about kill them? (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg140052#msg140052)

[rel]

more info on what you want out of gods would be helpfull

[Kobold Esq]

That said, the internal balance between Deities is horrendous, with some being weak to the point of vulnerability to high level PCs, to others having access to Alter Reality.

The same could be said if you compared all the various deities that humans have believed in. Certain gods in polytheistic pantheons definitely were considered killable (or at least temporarily defeatable) by heroic humans. Obviously at the other end of the spectrum is the unknowable all powerful Abrahamic god.

[rferries]

Ironically, I've always felt deities are too WEAK in general. Divine Rank 1 (or even 0) should give you Alter Reality by default, or at least a limited version of it. How is it that a deity can have Power of Nature or Life and Death but not the power to duplicate prestidigitation (unless they specifically choose a power that can do so)?

[AlanBruce]

I always felt that giving deities stats was a terrible idea.

Like the Lady of Pain, they ought to be a plot device, not some ubermonster with a bunch of HP the PCs should strive to kill.

That being said, gods do have powerful proxies at their beck and call which should be able to rise up to the challenge if a party gets Deicidal ideas. I understand that once in epic territory, PCs feel the need to march against the gods (wizards in particular... always the wizards).

Do be aware that Deities & Demigods, like all other books presented in this game, are to be used as guidelines. You don't need to adhere to what's written there and make it canon to your game.

Maybe the gods are in some spiritual level so far above, that not even the Epic Wizard with Epic Spellcasting can even touch them... and that's fine. Just make sure that if you are willing to rewrite them, make sure you have some clear idea as to how much they will meddle. Because if you have gods popping up and dismantling a party's well laid plans, then yes, expect the Players to want to go after that god and kill it.

In my games, when it comes to the gods, they are vaguely referenced at best, sending powerful "god like" champions to deal with the party at worst.

[Psyren]

Agreed - if players want to fight gods, the stats should be for an Avatar, Aspect, or some other proxy instead. Then if the god loses, the GM has more freedom to craft a believable resolution. Perhaps the god put too much of their power into the vessel and the feedback from that fight does make them straight-up "die" or become a vestige. Perhaps the players can now use a plot device (artifact, ritual, etc) to finish the job, maybe even ascending themselves. Perhaps the god becomes vulnerable to a rival or even receives punishment from the others or an overdeity. Perhaps the god itself is fine and free to resume plotting, but their particular plan in this instance has been thwarted or delayed. And perhaps the god can even simply no-sell the defeat in a dramatic reversal of fortune after the heroes have already given it their all.

In short, you can have all the fun scenarios and outcomes that would result from fighting a god, without needing to stat out the god itself, and shatter suspension of disbelief when a message forum finds a way to kill it with three commoners and a toothpick.

[gkathellar]

Agreed - if players want to fight gods, the stats should be for an Avatar, Aspect, or some other proxy instead. Then if the god loses, the GM has more freedom to craft a believable resolution. Perhaps the god put too much of their power into the vessel and the feedback from that fight does make them straight-up "die" or become a vestige. Perhaps the players can now use a plot device (artifact, ritual, etc) to finish the job, maybe even ascending themselves. Perhaps the god becomes vulnerable to a rival or even receives punishment from the others or an overdeity. Perhaps the god itself is fine and free to resume plotting, but their particular plan in this instance has been thwarted or delayed. And perhaps the god can even simply no-sell the defeat in a dramatic reversal of fortune after the heroes have already given it their all.

In short, you can have all the fun scenarios and outcomes that would result from fighting a god, without needing to stat out the god itself, and shatter suspension of disbelief when a message forum finds a way to kill it with three commoners and a toothpick.

For all that it was an edition change event, this was one of the cool things about the Time of Troubles, illustrating how Powers could be made vulnerable without Making Powers Vulnerable.

There's also flip side: giving stats to powers can make them stronger than a GM wants them to be. Want to have your players sneak into the Library of Boccob? If he has no stats, that's exactly as easy as you want it to be. If he can sense absolutely anything affecting his portfolio, on the other hand, you have to do a narrative end run around that.

Basically, SDAs are always too strong, and always too weak, and often at the same time.

[Psyren]

There's also flip side: giving stats to powers can make them stronger than a GM wants them to be. Want to have your players sneak into the Library of Boccob? If he has no stats, that's exactly as easy as you want it to be. If he can sense absolutely anything affecting his portfolio, on the other hand, you have to do a narrative end run around that.

I will point out that it's possible to set this up without it being too contrived. Sneaking into Boccob's library should indeed be impossible for mortals. But if they have Vecna's help, it suddenly becomes a lot more plausible. And you can even set it up to not be a foregone conclusion, because Vecna is a jerk like that - he will make it possible, but your party's success or failure is still left up to how competent you are, and he's not going to bail you out if you screw up (read: roll badly.) Or he might bail you out, but with considerable strings attached.

The SDAs have one function, and that is to give the GM plot ideas. Note also that they actually function as much as limits as they do capabilities. Portfolio Sense for instance is very powerful, but all it tells the deity is that something is happening - it doesn't say why, provides no contrxt, and it doesn't help them prioritize which events truly demand their direct attention. That sense is probably pinging every moment for some of the greater ones - which is where lesser deities can come in handy, because theirs automatically filter for events that affect sufficiently large numbers of people. It explains why, say, Mystra keeps Azuth close by, to help her filter all the functionally infinite events that affect magic down to the ones that would impact large numbers of people.

[Vreejack]

I was looking to qualify the various divine powers in order to express them as the inherited powers of their mortal progeny. But trying to figure out how they were ever intended to be used in the first place was a head-scratcher when it became apparent that some of the SDA's were pointlessly redundant. I think I would be better off starting from someplace else.

[Vreejack]

The main parallels between Overdeities and Her Serenity are apparent unstoppability (she once willed a Greater Deity to asplode for treading on her toes), jealous guardianship of their domains, and total disinterest in mortal affairs. In either case, stats would be inappropriate - they exist to enforce and explain certain rules of their settings.

A curious difference is that Her Serenity does not appear to have existed in this multiverse forever, certainly not in Sigil, anyway. Perhaps a critical mass of squirrels was required.

[Nifft]

A curious difference is that Her Serenity does not appear to have existed in this multiverse forever, certainly not in Sigil, anyway. Perhaps a critical mass of squirrels was required.

Of course.

That explains her perfect wins.

The Lady of Pain is secretly also Squirrel Girl.

[rel]

I don't think a game in which the players are trying to fight or kill a god or gods is out of the question for D&D.

In such a game, genuinely beating said gods with guile and carefully accumulated personal power rather than external help or magguffins would be a big part of the fun for me.

[Eldan]

Of course.

That explains her perfect wins.

The Lady of Pain is secretly also Squirrel Girl.

Nah. She's three squirrels in a robe and a mask with a ring of levitation.

It's an old Planescape joke that came up in a list of weird crackpot setting theories in a Planescape book once and has gone memetic. I think Planescape: Torment had it too.

Anyway, the way I see the Lady is that she's like the Sun. Like the Sun in a typical low-level sword and sorcery story. The players can certainly see the sun. The sun explains why there's night and day. The sun makes things warm, helps plants grow and occasionally destroys some undead. There might be people worshipping the sun. But the sun does not in any way communicate with the players and the idea of the players trying to kill it is ludicrous. They can't get to it. If they try, they end up with an impression of either Icarus or the Tower of Babel and the sun won't even notice. And not a lot of DMs would even think of writing up combat stats for the sun in the setting, even when it shows up quite commonly in scene descriptions.


As for fighting gods, that is very campaign dependent. I'm currently running a game that has a sort of mish-mash of Greek, Norse and Egyptian myth for its setting and centers around a Cthonic being of an older generation of gods returning to the world in a very destructive way. I fully intend the players in that setting to at some point get powerful enough to rival gods and titans, so I'm statting up my gods at level 20-ish, mostly clericy types with a few extra abilities. They'll have the ability to shapeshift into their various cultural aspects and a portfolio sense. And the ability to send theri spells anywhere in the world, but that's a function of their divine domains, not the gods themselves.