Paladins code of conduct vs. spying

[Melcar]

Hellow scribes of old....

So I just had kind of a random discussion with a friend/ DM about some gaming we are going to do on Saturday. We discussed whether or not it would be possible/ within the code of conduct for a Lathander Paladin to employ secret agents to spy on other nations and organizations of interest (mostly evil thief guilds).

According to Lathanders dogma, I argued that one could, when used for the betterment of good people in general, whereas he referred to the description of a paladin in PHB.

What do you guys think? Would it be a breach of the paladin code to send out undercover spies to infiltrate and conduct espionage on foreign nation's administrations, and organizations of interest???

[legomaster00156]

Yes. Of course he could. The gathering of intelligence is not an evil act, even if it may be an illegal one. Now, if he went around ordering his spies to do dirtier work, such as assassinations, that is where he crosses into the territory of ordering Evil acts, which is also on his hands.

[tyckspoon]

I would expect a typical Paladin to consider espionage in general distasteful, but I wouldn't consider it to be against the code- although a Paladin himself will generally not perform un-Lawful activities, there is no reason he can't allow others to do so when such actions are needed (and certain forms of 'spies' are just expected as part of doing normal business, like sending ambassadors or functionaries to visit foreign courts - of course they're going to send back reports about what's going on.) That said, infiltrating and maintaining cover in Evil or evil-flexible organizations may require performing evil acts, and I can't see a Paladin of any faith willingly ordering a subordinate to do that - the Paladin would rightfully consider himself responsible for the evil his agent did. There's a reason Paladins aren't often found as spymasters and heads of state; the job usually requires a degree of pragmatism and flexibility that the Code often doesn't permit.

That said, if you want a Paladin spymaster, that's pretty much what the Grey Guard prestige class is for.. Paladins with a special exception to do nasty things in service of the Greater Good. I'd probably just use a Crusader or one of the other divinely-flavored classes that aren't bound by Code, tho - the Grey Guard always felt weird to me.

[Melcar]

Indeed... I don't see the act of intelligence gathering as inherently evil. Even if you use this information to do evil, its still not the intelligence gathering which is evil... the targeted killing following it is.

I agree that the Paladin might not be able to do covert operations himself, but I would argue that he could collaborate with The Harpers or Moonstars... Without the falling from grace... The specific of the debate was whether or not the LG paladin of Lathander, who is a ruling King, order the creation of a CIA/FBI cell, and have his chief of defense to train and deploy these agents... Again I would say it would be immoral not to do all in your power to uncover evil and aggressive acts against he people and other good people in other nations states too...

Indeed the actions might be unsavory.. as in infiltrating and even perhaps having these agents take part in criminal acts, but for the greater god. I think of it like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdfp5Za0XVg). But then we ague whether or not its evil to actively kill 10, to actively save 100 or whether passively killing 100 is worse.

The intelligence agents mission is to gather information valuable to the national security of the Kingdom. This include anything that might threaten to destabilize or undermine the territorial and political legitimacy and ability to govern said areas. Information might include information on war, crime, political maneuvering, targeted killing and terror as well as foreign espionage etc.
The purpose of the agents is to gather information in such a timely manner as to make the kingdom able to counter threats to the Kingdom, or as a minimum obtain information in such a way as to alert the Kingdom of impending threats.

The agents may work independently and make use of own judgment to fulfill their mission to the best of their abilities and in a way tailored to the particular target.
The Unblinking Eyes serves and foreign intelligence service where the King’s Coronets serves as the domestic security agency. They both have the same mission but differs in that the foreign agency is focused more on offensive espionage and external security whereas the domestic is focused more on counter espionage and internal security. Both types of agents work and gather intelligence in all walks of life and on the tactical all the way through to the political level.

So its an interesting debate (at least I think) of whether ones morals are so dogmatic/ pious as to prohibit one for engaging in activities that could potentially save thousands, whether that action itself is immoral in and of itself. One could ague here, that not being proactive in the undertaking of providing security makes one reactive, and one could argue that, that kind of proactivity necessarily would entail preemptive attacks, which might be seen as too aggressive. But again is the life of 1 king or general more evil than the slaughter on the battlefield killing thousands???

The last sentence of Lathanders dogma in F&P actually to me means leeway in terms of how strick ones code of conduct needs to be... I understand that the class, not the deity has that requirement but I would deem that sentence to mean that its more important to be active in the pursuit of good, that to adhere to the seneschal strict demands for piousness.

[LoyalPaladin]

Unfortunately, the Paladin's Code is pretty vague in 3.5e. That's why I tend to rule all my paladins to use their deity's dogma as their code, since not all religious orders would want their paladins to act the same.


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
The only parts of the Paladin's Code that I could see conflicting with espionage are what I've highlighted above. I imagine having to inform people you're a paladin of Lathander every time they ask would be unfortunate when trying to be stealthy, and it is possible your DM would rule espionage as covered under "so forth".


Now, if he went around ordering his spies to do dirtier work, such as assassinations, that is where he crosses into the territory of ordering Evil acts, which is also on his hands.
I'm only in minor agreement with you on this one. Wizards of the Coast specifically called out Paladins following the path of an Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) on rare occasions. Perhaps there is some gray area, so long as you're benefiting the greater [Good]. While I think murder is definitely evil, assassinations aren't classified as evil. In fact, there's another prestige class that gives this a lot of merit.


Assassins, of course, are evil by their nature and the nature of what they do: committing murder for money is a completely evil act. However, sometimes the skill set of an assassin is required for more noble purposes. Claiming the power of the paragon archon Domiel, the slayers of Domiel are a disciplined, secretive order of stealthy spies and—when the need arises—assassins who serve the cause of law and good.
This class requires that you are Lawful Good, and take Servant of the Heavens.

As for the original question, I think it's entirely plausible for a paladin to employee secret agents to spy for him, so long as those secret agents are something akin to a Slayer of Domiel or Avenger, not your typical cutthroat rogue or assassin.