3.5e can healing spells critical

[Syriously]

Ok so im a warlock6/cleric 3 /eldritch disciple1. Im currently using the healing blast from the eldritch disciple to apply healing blast as an essence. Now that this is stated. Im applying the blast shape eldritch chain to my eldritch blast with the healing blast essence.
1 do i have to make a ranged touch attack on each of my allies that the eldritch chain applies to.
2. If i do have to make an attack roll on each of my allies is it possible for me to critical x2 on healing?

[Arael666]

Touch
You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

I don't see why not, by RAW you can crit with inflict spells, so it should be possible to crit with cure spells too.

[DrMotives]

I think the normal rules are no crits or precision damage if it's healing. The same spell may crit and carry precision damage if it hurts the target though.

[Thurbane]

I think you could only critical with a Cure if you were using it to damage a creature harmed by positive energy. And most of those are immune to critical hits.

All references in critical hit rules that I am aware of refer to multiplying "damage"; Cure spells used to cure are not inflicting "damage".

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_damage&alpha=D


Damage
A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage. In addition, wherever it is relevant, the type of damage an attack deals is specified, since natural abilities, magic items, or spell effects may grant immunity to certain types of damage. Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). Modifiers to melee damage rolls apply to both subcategories of weapon damage (melee and unarmed). Some modifiers apply to both weapon and spell damage, but only if so stated. Damage points are deducted from whatever character attribute has been harmed -- lethal and nonlethal damage from current hit points, and ability damage from the relevant ability score). Damage heals naturally over time, but can also be negated wholly or partially by curative magic.

[Syriously]

I think the normal rules are no crits or precision damage if it's healing. The same spell may crit and carry precision damage if it hurts the target though.

But i need a specific location in a book saying i cant critical on heals. I found a specific thing that says if you make an attack roll for a spell its subject to critical

[Thurbane]

But i need a specific location in a book saying i cant critical on heals. I found a specific thing that says if you make an attack roll for a spell its subject to critical

See the Weaponlike Spells rules, Rules Compendium page 132 & 136.


Weaponlike spells that deal some form of damage - lethal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or ability drain - or that bestow negative levels can threaten critical hits, can be used with precision damage (see page 42), and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses.

Cure wounds spells meet none of these criteria, unless causing damage to a creature harmed by positive energy. Cure spells used to restore hit points are not causing damage, in any sense of the word.


When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage.

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding your supposition, this simply does not work. Your are curing your allies, not damaging them. See the glossary definition of damage above.

If you find a creature harmed by positive energy that it not immune to critical hits, then yes, you can critical them with a cure spell.

[Syriously]

So basically the information im collecting is that i wont have to roll a ranged touch attack with my eldritch blast with eldritch chain(blast shape) and healing blast (essence invocation) on it.due to the fact that its a "healing spell"

[Syriously]

Eldritch chain -This blast shape invocation allows you to improve your eldritch blast by turning it into an arc of energy that “jumps” from the first target to others. An eldritch chain can jump to one or more secondary targets within 30 feet of the first target, allowing you to make additional ranged touch attacks and deal damage to the secondary targets if you hit.

Healing blast-In place of applying an eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast, you can change it into a healing blast. The blast heals living creatures instead of dealing damage to them (the damage healed is equal to the damage normally dealt). Against undead, the healing blast deals damage as normal; against constructs or objects, the healing blast has no effect. Your deity must be non-evil for you to select this gift.

[DrMotives]

If you find a creature harmed by positive energy that it not immune to critical hits, then yes, you can critical them with a cure spell.

Besides agreeing with everything you wrote, there is at least one, the Kir-Lanan gargoyle from FR is a living creature that is harmed by positive energy and healed by negative. Also, there's a couple of rogue ACFs in Complete Divine, I think, that allow sneak attack to apply to undead. Get some cleric or even bard casting for cure spells, and you can stack up their damage.

[Vaern]

There's a sidebar in the PHB that states that spells which require an attack roll can score a critical hit. Casting a cure spell on a willing subject doesn't take an attack roll, thus it can't crit.

You could channel it through a natural attack to force an attack roll (ie, hold the charge and punch someone in the face with it). However, though your fist might score a critical hit in this case, this method of delivery prevents the spell itself from striking critically and may provoke an attack of opportunity from your ally.

[Syriously]

Yes thats true but using the facts above doesnt it allow me to make attack rolls considering eldritch chain specifically states for me to make an attack roll.

[Thurbane]

Besides agreeing with everything you wrote, there is at least one, the Kir-Lanan gargoyle from FR is a living creature that is harmed by positive energy and healed by negative. Also, there's a couple of rogue ACFs in Complete Divine, I think, that allow sneak attack to apply to undead. Get some cleric or even bard casting for cure spells, and you can stack up their damage.

I figured there would be at least one creature that fell into that category. :smallsmile:

[Kayblis]

Besides agreeing with everything you wrote, there is at least one, the Kir-Lanan gargoyle from FR is a living creature that is harmed by positive energy and healed by negative. Also, there's a couple of rogue ACFs in Complete Divine, I think, that allow sneak attack to apply to undead. Get some cleric or even bard casting for cure spells, and you can stack up their damage.

There's also the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, that lets you heal with negative damage and get hurt by positive energy. You don't get any immunities with this one, so any living creature with this feat is subject to a critical heal. It's designed for necromancers and his friends though, so if someone has this feat, it probably also has some other undead immunities(or at least Fortification).

[Syriously]

The issue isn't that you are or aren't making an attack roll, the issue is that you cannot critical unless you are doing damage. CURES DO NOT DO DAMAGE WHEN USED TO HEAL.

You seem to be willfully ignoring that part? Or maybe you have me in your blocked users list for some reason, and can't see my posts?

...or are you just looking for us to say "Yeah sure, why not, you can critical cure your buddies", even if it's not a correct ruling? :smallconfused:



I figured there would be at least one creature that fell into that category. :smallsmile:

Got what u were saying, but does this mean i dont have to make attack rolls? If its on a willing ally and would their spell resist account into that aswell

[Thurbane]

Got what u were saying, but does this mean i dont have to make attack rolls? If its on a willing ally and would their spell resist account into that aswell

Right, I get your question now. Sorry if I was a bit grumpy. :smallredface:

With a normal Cure spell, no attack roll is required. If you are using Healing Blast, then I believe you would need to make an attack roll, as an Elritch Blast (the carrier for the healing) requires an attack roll.

[Syriously]

Right, I get your question now. Sorry if I was a bit grumpy. :smallredface:

With a normal Cure spell, no attack roll is required. If you are using Healing Blast, then I believe you would need to make an attack roll, as an Elritch Blast (the carrier for the healing) requires an attack roll.

I so wouldnt that subject it to a critical then. If youre going by the guidelines of the phb 140

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll, such as
shocking grasp or Melf’s acid arrow, can score a critical hit. A spell attack
that requires no attack roll, such as lightning bolt, cannot score a critical
hit.

[Syriously]

Right, I get your question now. Sorry if I was a bit grumpy. :smallredface:

With a normal Cure spell, no attack roll is required. If you are using Healing Blast, then I believe you would need to make an attack roll, as an Elritch Blast (the carrier for the healing) requires an attack roll.

Thats why im getting confused because it really doesnt specify damag. Just that if i have to make an attack roll

[Thurbane]

I so wouldnt that subject it to a critical then. If youre going by the guidelines of the phb 140

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll, such as
shocking grasp or Melf’s acid arrow, can score a critical hit. A spell attack
that requires no attack roll, such as lightning bolt, cannot score a critical
hit.

Thats why im getting confused because it really doesnt specify damag. Just that if i have to make an attack roll

Only if the attack roll is doing damage. Completely regardless of the rules on PHB p.140, only attacks that do damage can critical. You cannot critical with effects that do not do damage. For instance, Touch of Fatigue requires an attack roll, but cannot critical, even if you roll a natural 20 with your attack.

The only conceivable way you could critical with a Healing Blast is if you are using it to damage a creature (like a Kir-Lanan gargoyle, for instance). If used for healing, attack roll or no attack roll, you cannot critical with it as it is not inflicting damage.

A critical requires two things:
1. An attack roll.
2. Ability to inflict damage.

Does that clear it up?

[Syriously]

Only if the attack roll is doing damage. Completely regardless of the rules on PHB p.140, only attacks that do damage can critical. You cannot critical with effects that do not do damage. For instance, Touch of Fatigue requires an attack roll, but cannot critical, even if you roll a natural 20 with your attack.

The only conceivable way you could critical with a Healing Blast is if you are using it to damage a creature (like a Kir-Lanan gargoyle, for instance). If used for healing, attack roll or no attack roll, you cannot critical with it as it is not inflicting damage.

A critical requires two things:
1. An attack roll.
2. Ability to inflict damage.

Does that clear it up?
Gotcha thanks!

[Syriously]

Only if the attack roll is doing damage. Completely regardless of the rules on PHB p.140, only attacks that do damage can critical. You cannot critical with effects that do not do damage. For instance, Touch of Fatigue requires an attack roll, but cannot critical, even if you roll a natural 20 with your attack.

The only conceivable way you could critical with a Healing Blast is if you are using it to damage a creature (like a Kir-Lanan gargoyle, for instance). If used for healing, attack roll or no attack roll, you cannot critical with it as it is not inflicting damage.

A critical requires two things:
1. An attack roll.
2. Ability to inflict damage.

Does that clear it up?

Since we're talking about crit. It says in phb you roll your damage more than once then multiply it Whats up with that weve always done roll your damage once then multiply it

[Psyren]

The "multiply" refers to how many times you roll (and you add all your modifiers each time, unless those modifiers say they don't get multiplied on a crit, like sneak attack.)

So if you crit with a +1 composite longbow and have 14 Str, the "x3" means you roll (1d8+1+Str) three times.

[jdizzlean]

I so wouldnt that subject it to a critical then. If youre going by the guidelines of the phb 140

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll, such as
shocking grasp or Melf’s acid arrow, can score a critical hit. A spell attack
that requires no attack roll, such as lightning bolt, cannot score a critical
hit.


Since we're talking about crit. It says in phb you roll your damage more than once then multiply it Whats up with that weve always done roll your damage once then multiply it

if you want to do more healing, just get maximize spell, otherwise you take the variable that is rolling dice.

how you figure crit damage is up to each dm, some have you roll multiple times as stated, some simply have you roll once and multiply. that's called dm fiat, or rule 0.

[Crake]

Only if the attack roll is doing damage. Completely regardless of the rules on PHB p.140, only attacks that do damage can critical. You cannot critical with effects that do not do damage. For instance, Touch of Fatigue requires an attack roll, but cannot critical, even if you roll a natural 20 with your attack.

The only conceivable way you could critical with a Healing Blast is if you are using it to damage a creature (like a Kir-Lanan gargoyle, for instance). If used for healing, attack roll or no attack roll, you cannot critical with it as it is not inflicting damage.

A critical requires two things:
1. An attack roll.
2. Ability to inflict damage.

Does that clear it up?

An easier way to explain it is thusly: Criticals only multiply damage. Even if you did "crit" with a healing spell, there's no damage to multiply. It would be like trying to crit with a tanglefoot bag. Sure it's got an attack roll, and you rolled a natural 20 and confirmed. Congrats, you crit.... and nothing extra happened, because you weren't doing any damage.

[mattie_p]

One point of clarification in an otherwise excellent thread to explain the RAW.


You could channel it through a natural attack to force an attack roll (ie, hold the charge and punch someone in the face with it). However, though your fist might score a critical hit in this case, this method of delivery prevents the spell itself from striking critically and may provoke an attack of opportunity from your ally.


Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I recognize your response was probably a little tongue in cheek, it might turn an ally into an opponent but wouldn't provoke an AoO.

[Psyren]

An easier way to explain it is thusly: Criticals only multiply damage. Even if you did "crit" with a healing spell, there's no damage to multiply. It would be like trying to crit with a tanglefoot bag. Sure it's got an attack roll, and you rolled a natural 20 and confirmed. Congrats, you crit.... and nothing extra happened, because you weren't doing any damage.

The bad guy got "super tangled." It's just like regular tangled, but you get to be smug about it.


One point of clarification in an otherwise excellent thread to explain the RAW.





I recognize your response was probably a little tongue in cheek, it might turn an ally into an opponent but wouldn't provoke an AoO.

The regular touch would not, but it seems he was saying you could channel it through a punch. If you don't have IUS, that WOULD provoke.

[mattie_p]

The regular touch would not, but it seems he was saying you could channel it through a punch. If you don't have IUS, that WOULD provoke.

Accurate statement, I forgot about the exception to the exception. I wonder if I abuse punch healing in some fashion now? I need to make a sacred fist I guess.

[ksbsnowowl]

So basically the information im collecting is that i wont have to roll a ranged touch attack with my eldritch blast with eldritch chain(blast shape) and healing blast (essence invocation) on it.due to the fact that its a "healing spell"

Ranged touch healing spell? Absolutely have to roll to hit your ally. Still can't crit heal.

[Fouredged Sword]

On the otherhand it makes no sense to me that your high dex friend is HARDER to heal due to his dex. I would allow, as dm, your healing blasts to target ff ac as the target is not dodging them.

[Hamste]

Wouldn't your ally be actively moving into the healing blast? Surely that means you just have to hit AC 5 (the equivalent of being helpless (possibly lower if DM rules it)+static bonuses to touch ac that can't be turned off like deflection.

On a side note, I also love the idea of the BBEG noticing what you are doing and jumping in front of one of the healing blasts.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wouldn't your ally be actively moving into the healing blast? Surely that means you just have to hit AC 5 (the equivalent of being helpless (possibly lower if DM rules it)+static bonuses to touch ac that can't be turned off like deflection.

On a side note, I also love the idea of the BBEG noticing what you are doing and jumping in front of one of the healing blasts.

Yeah, honestly I would likely remove the attack roll all together to streamline the ability unless there where some really nasty penalties involved. Though, miss chances would still apply, so darkness and invisibility are problematic.

[Axel_690]

Yeah, honestly I would likely remove the attack roll all together to streamline the ability unless there where some really nasty penalties involved. Though, miss chances would still apply, so darkness and invisibility are problematic.

Area effects don't require attack rolls and thus aren't affected by miss chance. Just use the cone shape or the burst shape in those cases.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

On the otherhand it makes no sense to me that your high dex friend is HARDER to heal due to his dex. I would allow, as dm, your healing blasts to target ff ac as the target is not dodging them.

if I remember right you can make your AC lower like you can lower your saves.

[Vaern]

It would make sense for your heals to crit outside of combat. Spend a full round to focus the spell on the absolute worst spot(s) in desperate need of healing while your target is sitting still and essentially "coup de grace" the wound.