Do you get experience for things you do in a fugue state?

[Shark Uppercut]

As title. Do you gain experience for finishing quests or killing monsters if you are in a blackout state, from drugs or alcohol or mental illness?

I realize this is basically a "What really is experience?" thread, which will probably become as insufferable as all those "What does HP really represent?" threads. So I thought by popping a thought-provoking question, I could keep this light-hearted. Ironically, I thought of this while watching Bojack Horseman.

Just to channel the discussion a little, I thought I could explain the logic beyond 2 possible answers:

A- Experience is your memories. When you level up, it's because you've trained hard enough that difficult tasks now feel routine. This covers the cinematic thing of memories being fuel to draw determination from, and how actual training works, muscle memory of complex tasks. Spellcasters practise mental math to determine spell effects. Martial characters have muscle memory to dodge and attack with weapons faster than the other guy.

The DM should fluff negative levels as an actual loss of memories. Restoration spells aren't just healing your body of Strength drain, but also your mind. Creating magic items or casting spells with experience components (in 3.5) involves literally sacrificing memories. The only way to go on with your adventuring career is to make more memories.
(As far as I know, this has never been the expectation in 3.5 or PF, but might have been the correct fluff in 2e???)

No, you get no experience for combat during blackout drunk. You won't remember it, so how will it affect you?

B- Experience is a part of your body, like your skin, your height or your soul. When you level up, it's mostly an abstraction. You develop muscles by working out, not by remembering your workout routines, and experience is the same way. Spellcasters that practise magic a lot simply hone their bodies to better accommodate the flow of magical energy. Martial characters literally work out when they enter combat. Muscle memory is a part of it, but mostly it's just making your body a better body.

The DM should fluff negative levels as a missing piece of you. Something, not Constitution or your primary attribute, something vital to you and every other person, is missing. Restoration spells make you whole, make you feel like a sickness has passed. Creating magic items or casting spells with experience components (in 3.5) is a sacrifice, a conscious sacrifice. Like leaving a loved one behind for a job, you'll remember it for the rest of your life. The only way to go on with your adventuring career is to make happy memories, to compensate for the empty feeling inside.

Yes, you get experience for combat while blackout drunk. You won't remember anything, but your body still went through it.

[Nifft]

You don't get XP for killing monsters, you get XP from overcoming challenges.

The challenges are often made of monsters, but it's not the killing that gets you XP -- unless you're in a 2e video game, I guess -- it's the overcoming of the challenge.

You can get XP for sneaking past monsters.

XP has no particular in-universe reality. It's part of an abstract resource management game which is limited to PCs.

NPCs do not participate in the XP game, even though NPCs exist in the universe and NPCs can gain levels and create magic items.

NPCs learn and level up and do things that would cost XP if a PC did those things, but the NPCs don't have XP, because XP aren't a real thing.

[Crake]

XP has no particular in-universe reality. It's part of an abstract resource management game which is limited to PCs.

NPCs do not participate in the XP game, even though NPCs exist in the universe and NPCs can gain levels and create magic items.

NPCs learn and level up and do things that would cost XP if a PC did those things, but the NPCs don't have XP, because XP aren't a real thing.

None of those things are true when you consider all of the things that interact with xp in 3.5. That may be applicable to pathfinder, where xp is a one way street, but in 3.5, there are things that cost xp, things that drain levels, and things that can restore them, so xp must be an abstract of something beyond just a leveling mechanic. Considering the biggest thing that causes you to lose xp is defined as "energy drain", and tends to be linked with the soul, xp could be considered to be some kind of growth of character, of inner energy, of your very soul itself. Something like casting wish, is a very real, and permanent drain on that energy, as is a wight or a vampire's slam.

And NPCs certainly do participate in the XP game. They charge extra for expenditure of their own xp when crafting items, if they even have xp to spare, and there are even spells and items which allow the containment of xp for crafting purposes.

Finally, we have the thought bottle, along with the restoration lines of spells, which are capable of restoring xp that has been lost.

If you consider things like that, then even if you're blacked out, as long as you're still participating, and acting of your own accord, rather than being puppeted by someone else, then you should be getting xp.

[Shark Uppercut]

It's not the killing that gets you XP, it's the overcoming of the challenge.

It's the same thing. Pathfinder monsters literally have an experience point value. Do you have an opinion on the actual question?



If you consider things like that, then even if you're blacked out, as long as you're still participating, and acting of your own accord, rather than being puppeted by someone else, then you should be getting xp.

Are you saying that blacking out in 3.5 doesn't stop you from earning experience but blacking out in Pathfinder does... because experience costs were removed? Why?

And if you were being puppeted, that would make a difference?

[Nifft]

None of those things are true All of what I wrote is true, thanks for trying to help though.


It's the same thing. Pathfinder monsters literally have an experience point value. Do you have an opinion on the actual question? I can re-phrase, and the answer is: You are looking at the system wrong.

You're trying to find an in-universe absolute law for a thing that does not have any such place in the universe.

Where do Story Reward XP come from? Is the quest-giver secretly stabbing a barrel of miniaturized orcs and wafting the fumes of their XP into your nostrils when you get a plot-related XP award? No, of course not, that would be silly.

XP have no single in-universe explanation. They are a player reward which is applied to a character. You can get XP for NOT fighting things (e.g. for sneaking past an encounter). You can get XP for fighting things and NOT killing them. You can get XP for fighting the same monster twice (often this will be a recurring villain). XP are not purely character experience. XP are not purely "muscle memory". There is no single in-universe explanation for XP.


The standard that I would apply to your questions is: Were the players solving problems and/or overcoming challenges?

If yes, then the PCs get XP.

[Venger]

yes. of course you do.

the only RAW way for you to be cheated of experience is if an enemy summons another monster and you have to kill that too (hurr durr it's part of the enemy's cr!) if you were in the dreamscape or if you were in the deleted savefile of a forced dream.

A) not a thing. memory altering magic doesn't as a rule cause you to lose xp.

B) also not a thing. if I use mind switch or something, I don't lose xp.

the only actual question is did you the player actually do the stuff your character did in a fugue state. did you get really drunk and then kill everyone in a bar by rolling dice and so on and so forth and then the gm says "you don't remember it" the next morning (which I'll tell you now is a red flag, get comfortable on those railroad tracks) you would be entitled to the xp.

or is it a means of handling downtime? like, did you get drunk and say "I guess my guy gets blackout drunk and wakes up the next morning" and then the gm says "you killed everyone in the bar lol what do you guys want to do next?" since you sort of navigated a combat without actually playing the game and with no actual chance of failure, in that scenario, you wouldn't get the xp.

your misunderstanding seems to be dwelling on the other definition from the word "experience." just because that's what xp stands for doesn't mean it's tied to a character's experience. it's just some points your guy earns for doing stuff.