Break my houserule

[Grim Reader]

Ok, I am slowly putting together a new campaign. One of the things I am looking at it magic items. As one of my players said in a previous campaign once they levelled a bit "These are supposed to be heroes, not Fafnir!" referring to the Christmas Trees of sparkly magic the character were turning into. But many D&D classes rely on items to be functional past very low levels.

So here is the rules that I am contemplating:

Rule 1: Every character starts with one magic item. As they level, the item grows with them, and "unlocks" more abilities. (Items being bonded to the wielder is a bit of a plot point I was contemplating anyway). You can't bond more than one permanent magic item. These abilities follow wealth-by-level, and must obey all the normal rules for magic items, including slot. I.e. you can only have one head slot effect active at any time. Thus you basically have wealth-by-level effects fluffed into a single magic item.

This does not in any way affect consumables.

Rule 2: "Sheol blades" at a +1 cost, the item may empower two weapons wielded by the character, giving both weapons the same enhancements.

Rule 3: As long as a character has levels in only low-tier classes (fighter for example, class list is not totally worked out yet) that character counts as +1 level for wealth-by-level unlocks.

[Bronk]

Rule 1 looks a lot like "Weapons of Legacy" or the Kensai class.

Rule 2 seems similar to the Necklace of Natural Attacks, but for weapons...

I think Rule 3 might need an explanation as to what a 'wealth-by-level' unlock might be. Maybe following those suggestions in the MIC a bit too closely?

[weckar]

I.e. you can only have one head slot effect active at any time. That's not actually a rule. There are in fact explicit rules on combining items that fit the same slot.

[Darrin]

Rule 1: Every character starts with one magic item. As they level, the item grows with them, and "unlocks" more abilities. (Items being bonded to the wielder is a bit of a plot point I was contemplating anyway). You can't bond more than one permanent magic item. These abilities follow wealth-by-level, and must obey all the normal rules for magic items, including slot. I.e. you can only have one head slot effect active at any time. Thus you basically have wealth-by-level effects fluffed into a single magic item.


This sounds similar to giving everybody the Ancestral Relic feat (BoED). It's not a bad idea, but as far as solutions go, it sounds more like an "optics" fix than a "mechanics" fix.



Rule 2: "Sheol blades" at a +1 cost, the item may empower two weapons wielded by the character, giving both weapons the same enhancements.


This looks like a nod to making TWF more viable. I approve, but again, shoving the Christmas Tree into a single ornament doesn't necessarily fix the Christmas Tree problem.



Rule 3: As long as a character has levels in only low-tier classes (fighter for example, class list is not totally worked out yet) that character counts as +1 level for wealth-by-level unlocks.

This is a different problem: Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards) (Warning: TVTropes link). I don't think you can fix this problem by trying to skew WBL towards the lower tiers, particularly when one of the cornerstones of the Quadratic end of things is having several dozen ways to obliterate economic scarcity.

Are you familiar with Grod's work on solving the Christmas Tree problem?

Chopping Down the Christmas Tree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules)

[Crake]

Your houserule (give everyone automatically progressing magic items rather than finding/crafting magic gear) does nothing to address the problem (characters rely too much on magic items).

[Fouredged Sword]

Rule 1 - Do not take away a bonded item. Your characters will hate you. Someone in your party is going to get a wise idea and go for a sunder build to attempt to break any bonded magic item the enemy has and knock all their magic equipment out at once. This could happen to your characters. You need a non-crippling way to recover a broken or lost bond.

Suggestion - Heroic spirit : A necessary component of a soul needed to bond to an item. (to explain why only some people are heroes.) This part of your nature grows with you as you level. Those with heroic spirits naturally become more as they gain in skill and knowledge. - basically you should roll all of the items that are zero cost multipliers to add to existing items (such as stat enhancement items and cloaks of resistance) into an aspect of the character themselves. These are items that basically everyone tacks onto the items they normally carry anyway (as you just add the cost in without extra) and it makes your characters feel not totally powerless if someone takes their bonded item. Your barbarian is just supernaturally strong. He doesn't need Killgore, his magic ax, to be strong. His legendary strength is inherent to himself (he bought a +6 str enhancement item and a +5 inherent bonus tome with his heroic spirit).

Dispel magic can suppress a heroic spirit, and an anti-magic field can as well, at least for some effects. Inherent bonuses resist this effect.) Heroic spirit effects have a CL equal to the character's HD for dispelling checks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are you familiar with Grod's work on solving the Christmas Tree problem?

Chopping Down the Christmas Tree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules)
Aww, hey, thanks! :smallredface:

Yeah, so there are basically two independent problems with removing magic items in 3.5. One is simple, the other less so.

The simple problem is scaling. The math of the game assumes that your numbers are getting boosted by progressively more and more powerful "big six" items-- enchanted weapons and armor, save boosters, stat boosters, and assorted AC boosters. That part isn't so hard to fix-- you just need to grant level-based bonuses to replace it.

The trickier problem is OPTIONS, and it's a depressingly tier-based issue. There are lots of monsters and adventure types that kind of demand magic to fight, especially once you start getting into rocket-tag territory. You want flight, you want resistances, you want special senses, that sort of thing. Magical classes can usually compensate for that sort of thing-- a Wizard can prep to fight anything-- but martials tend to rely on items for this. They also kind of like having items to differentiate themselves, sometimes. There's also an element of adaptability in WBL, in that you have a limited ability to change it around in response to changing circumstances that is otherwise lacking in low-tiers.

----

Virtual WBL is a simple bit effective fix, of course. I recommend having the new effects be an inherent part of them (ie, "all weapons I carry are +1 flaming"), to prevent feeling like your fancy sword is doing all the work.

[Bronk]

Rule 1 - Do not take away a bonded item. Your characters will hate you. Someone in your party is going to get a wise idea and go for a sunder build to attempt to break any bonded magic item the enemy has and knock all their magic equipment out at once. This could happen to your characters. You need a non-crippling way to recover a broken or lost bond.

Suggestion - Heroic spirit : A necessary component of a soul needed to bond to an item. (to explain why only some people are heroes.) This part of your nature grows with you as you level. Those with heroic spirits naturally become more as they gain in skill and knowledge. - basically you should roll all of the items that are zero cost multipliers to add to existing items (such as stat enhancement items and cloaks of resistance) into an aspect of the character themselves. These are items that basically everyone tacks onto the items they normally carry anyway (as you just add the cost in without extra) and it makes your characters feel not totally powerless if someone takes their bonded item. Your barbarian is just supernaturally strong. He doesn't need Killgore, his magic ax, to be strong. His legendary strength is inherent to himself (he bought a +6 str enhancement item and a +5 inherent bonus tome with his heroic spirit).

Dispel magic can suppress a heroic spirit, and an anti-magic field can as well, at least for some effects. Inherent bonuses resist this effect.) Heroic spirit effects have a CL equal to the character's HD for dispelling checks.

I like this idea!

Maybe the Heroic Spirit could have the additional aspect of attracting the favor of a minor member of an exemplar race that matches the PC's alignment. They could grant and empower the PCs magic items, and either they get promoted or switched out as the PC levels.

That way, good aligned PCs would get access to items made from aurorum, which reform after being sundered. They could fight evil or neutral enemies though, who wouldn't have access to the metal, so sundering would be more effective against them.

The items could also effectively have the 'calling' property, because if lost or stolen, an exemplar could eventually return it to them.

[CharonsHelper]

Try this - Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/)

It's an optional rule from Pathfinder Unchained which does exactly what you're looking for.

[Grim Reader]

I apologize, it seems I was very unclear in my explanation of what I am trying to do.

The christmas tree problem I am trying to adress is not the problem of characters relying on magic items. That is too deeply embedded in the system to fix without some serious rewiring. I am trying to fix the problem of characters ending up carrying entire sparkly arsenals of magic items, a sword for every occasion. This does not resemble most heroic fantasy or legend. Plenty of characters or semi-historicals had a magic item. Arthur had Excalibur, Roland had Durandal and Hervor got her Tyfing in the end.

But D&D characters can end up feeling more like a carrier battlegroup bristling with items than the heroes of the sagas.

This is made a bit worse by the fact that those of my players who like martials like a gritty character that could be played by (a younger) Clint Eastwood. Not a superhuman.

So I'm trying to solve the image problem this leads to. (Plus the fact that the current setting makes items very common in the world)

The "Extra WBL for low Teirs" Is more a bolt-on not to fix the caster supremacy, but ameliorate it a bit.


I think Rule 3 might need an explanation as to what a 'wealth-by-level' unlock might be. Maybe following those suggestions in the MIC a bit too closely?

Basically, your one magic item lets you have all the abilities you would get through wealth-by-level.


This looks like a nod to making TWF more viable. I approve, but again, shoving the Christmas Tree into a single ornament doesn't necessarily fix the Christmas Tree problem.

Makes it a little bit less tasteless, though :) And yes, it is a nod to making TWF a bit easier.


Are you familiar with Grod's work on solving the Christmas Tree problem?

No, I hadn't seen that. Thank you. It is very interesting, but seems to give characters Powers instead of items. Thaht yields a new flavor problem.


Rule 1 - Do not take away a bonded item. Your characters will hate you. Someone in your party is going to get a wise idea and go for a sunder build to attempt to break any bonded magic item the enemy has and knock all their magic equipment out at once. This could happen to your characters. You need a non-crippling way to recover a broken or lost bond.

Suggestion - Heroic spirit : A necessary component of a soul needed to bond to an item. (to explain why only some people are heroes.) This part of your nature grows with you as you level. Those with heroic spirits naturally become more as they gain in skill and knowledge. - basically you should roll all of the items that are zero cost multipliers to add to existing items (such as stat enhancement items and cloaks of resistance) into an aspect of the character themselves. These are items that basically everyone tacks onto the items they normally carry anyway (as you just add the cost in without extra) and it makes your characters feel not totally powerless if someone takes their bonded item. Your barbarian is just supernaturally strong. He doesn't need Killgore, his magic ax, to be strong. His legendary strength is inherent to himself (he bought a +6 str enhancement item and a +5 inherent bonus tome with his heroic spirit).

Dispel magic can suppress a heroic spirit, and an anti-magic field can as well, at least for some effects. Inherent bonuses resist this effect.) Heroic spirit effects have a CL equal to the character's HD for dispelling checks.

This is really interesting and good advice. Thank you. I can re-flavor the Heroic Spirit to fit with the metaphysics of the world I am working on.


Try this - Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/)

It's an optional rule from Pathfinder Unchained which does exactly what you're looking for.

Thank you, but this also seems to move the effects over to Powers, which raises different issues. Very interesting though.

[Goaty14]

Item Familiar much?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Makes it a little bit less tasteless, though :) And yes, it is a nod to making TWF a bit easier.
It keeps you from being laden with shiny items, true, but I think it introduces a new issue-- call it the "Mjolner Effect," perhaps. If so much of your power comes from a single magic item... what makes you special? Anyone who picks up your sword of "+2 attack, +1 saves, +5 AC, immunity to stunning and fear, flight, See Invisibility, Disguise Self at will, Dimension Hop 3/day, capable of holding 200 lb somehow" can rock out and kick ass. Coming from multiple items, at least the effect is... cumulative, I guess, might be the way to put it? The importance is distributed across more items, making their individual contributions less prominent.


No, I hadn't seen that. Thank you. It is very interesting, but seems to give characters Powers instead of items. Thaht yields a new flavor problem.
There's an option in there to have your powers come from items.