Necromancer's, particularly of a neutral deity that leans toward good.

[Westhart]

So I was statting out some gods and one of the god's champion was going to be a bone knight necromancer... until I realized that most undead creating spells are evil as are the spells that buff them upon creation (Such as desecrate) are [evil] and a lot of feats/PrC etc require a nongood alignment... thus I was wondering, could I use deathless and reflavour bone knight slightly along with allowing him to ignore the alignment for certain feats? (Trying to not go the whole "redeemed" route)
Some campaign Basics:
It is considered a holy honor to be able to serve after death, and thus reanimation (when resurrect and all are impossible etc.) is not looked down upon. However desecrating the corpses is heavily frowned upon, and a necromancer who kills to get bodies or doesn't tkae decent care of his undead are looked down upon, if not criminals. If anyone wishes they may list their name to not be used, although this is one of the ways that many countries fill their armies.

These spells do not take the subject's soul etc unless they are intelligent undead (vampires, lich etc)

Basically, I am wondering to what extent to go, etc would these undead be healed by consecrate, or would desecrate lose the [evil] tag when used in this manner?

Sorry if what I'm asking isn't very clear ><
Thanks!

[Geddy2112]

Honor to serve after death sounds more lawful and on the LC axis than good vs evil. If it is a holy honor, then that sounds good. If you only raised people who volunteered to be brought back, and showed incredible reverence you can probably swing nonevil, but it is still probably not good.

If you are making mindless undead out of corpses of people who volunteered, and using them for incredibly altruistic purposes, then you could argue good. It is no different than organ donation. If the soul has gone to the outer realms of your campaign world, then who needs the meat skeleton? If my meat skeleton can be used to defend the city so other living people don't have to risk their lives, or be used for very dangerous jobs(mining asbestos, etc) that prevent loss of life, then you have very good goals. Sentient undead are a different story, as you are not only using part of the soul, but most intelligent undead have to be created using some very evil acts/things in addition to the evil of necromancy. For example, there is no way you could even remotely justify making an attic whisperer and say you are anything short of evil. In addition to the spell create undead, it needs the spells crushing despair, fear, and the body of a child. No good person would ever consider that as being an option.

As far as what heals them, I would still say they would be healed by negative energy, as it is still unlife at the end of the day. However, negative energy is not inheriently evil. Desecrate could lose the evil descriptor if there was a chamber made specifically to bring back mindless undead of people who volunteered and their corpses used for altrustic ends.

[Westhart]

Honor to serve after death sounds more lawful and on the LC axis than good vs evil. If it is a holy honor, then that sounds good. If you only raised people who volunteered to be brought back, and showed incredible reverence you can probably swing nonevil, but it is still probably not good.

If you are making mindless undead out of corpses of people who volunteered, and using them for incredibly altruistic purposes, then you could argue good. It is no different than organ donation. If the soul has gone to the outer realms of your campaign world, then who needs the meat skeleton? If my meat skeleton can be used to defend the city so other living people don't have to risk their lives, or be used for very dangerous jobs(mining asbestos, etc) that prevent loss of life, then you have very good goals. Sentient undead are a different story, as you are not only using part of the soul, but most intelligent undead have to be created using some very evil acts/things in addition to the evil of necromancy. For example, there is no way you could even remotely justify making an attic whisperer and say you are anything short of evil. In addition to the spell create undead, it needs the spells crushing despair, fear, and the body of a child. No good person would ever consider that as being an option.

As far as what heals them, I would still say they would be healed by negative energy, as it is still unlife at the end of the day. However, negative energy is not inheriently evil. Desecrate could lose the evil descriptor if there was a chamber made specifically to bring back mindless undead of people who volunteered and their corpses used for altrustic ends.

I agree on the whisperer, nothing like that for this character >< Moe of a general type... and thanks for the advice! Now on the deathless, it seems to me (BoED) that there are no "zombie" types, they all have intelligence...

[Geddy2112]

The thing about deathless is that if they are created by a deity, the deity could have just as easily resurrected the person. Clearly a good deity would just do that if they wanted them alive, instead of making them some undead but not evil. A neutral deity might, or perhaps if they needed to be undead for some bizzare reason, but again a deity could make somebody seem undead if they wanted.

I could see deathless being made if resurrection was not an option to a mortal, but somebody was really needed. Or perhaps it was a resurrection gone wrong. Also keep in mind a deathless creature can still be evil, it just does not become an evil undead off the bat. There is canon for undead being non evil, despite the process to make undead being evil. In pathfinder(not sure if there is one in 3.5) there is the red jester (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester/), which is chaotic neutral. That and deathless suggest that while necromancy(the raising the dead kind, not the school as a whole) is evil, there are notable exceptions.

A neutral deity, even good leaning, might see undead creation can see undead as a totally fine thing. Wee Jas is a LN deity that leans evil and is very pro undead, but not the evil kind(respect the body, mindless undead for tasks unsafe for living beings, etc). From pathfinder, 2 of the 3 major TN deities vehemently oppose undead, while the third has one as a servant. It really depends on the deity and canon setting.

[Eldariel]

In Core, Wee Jas is a Neutral deity of death who has no problems with undead as long as they're not abused. The use of bodies with acceptance from their former hosts to good ends seems more than fine by this line of thought.

[Nifft]

Wee Jas is a great suggestion (she's LN).

If you're playing in Eberron, which is where Bone Knight is from, you may want to look at Karrnath (... which is even more specifically where Bone Knight is from). Karrnath has skeletons & zombies as intelligent soldiers who serve in their armed forces. Eberron is also deliberately fuzzier on the whole good-vs-evil thing, so you can be a Good person yet cast Evil spells.

[The Viscount]

In Eberron, Karrnath is interesting because becoming an undead to serve the country is considered a point of honor there, though not necessarily in other nations.

You might also take a look at Aerenal Elves. They instead of undead make deathless out of their ancestors so that they may guide the elves with their wisdom. Deathless are as a consequence not very common, but held in very high respect. Deathless, because they're animated by positive energy, are healed by cure spells, and evil spells like desecrate do not benefit them.

A lot of people use Wee Jas, but she's not really pro undead so much as she isn't anti-undead. She's more of a Death goddess than an undeath one. The problem with her not objecting to the creation of undead so long as they are not reanimated against their will, but how realistic is that to expect? Are necromancers supposed to go about the town and talk to people on their deathbed? Are you supposed to obtain the consent of someone and then wait for them to die? Are you supposed to try to contact their spirit once in the afterlife (what spell would you use for that, commune?) or are you mostly going to animate from those who passed on from old age? This is to say nothing of all of the monsters that necromancers would most likely be using to animate skeletons and zombies. Many of them have int of only 1 or 2, so can't meaningfully agree or disagree to something like this. It's a doctrine that sounds well and good, but seems to practically mean you will do almost no creation of undead.

[ShurikVch]

most undead creating spells are evilFrom the "pure RAW" point, neither Seed of Undeath spell line, nor Oath of Blood are [Evil] spells
Fell Animate feat also don't turn the spell [Evil]; use it with Painless Death spell (instakills willing target, 1st-level, no-save, no SR, non-[Evil])


a lot of feats/PrC etc require a nongood alignment..."Nongood" ≠ "Evil"
Is it so bad to be Neutral with Good tendencies?


could I use deathlessPlease, sorry, but (IMHO) the very concept of "Deathless" is stupid: we already have some non-Evil Undead (Good Liches are Good, Ghosts could be of any alignment, and Mummies are just "Usually lawful evil"), while one of Elder Evils (Ragnorra) is 100% Positive Energy-based

[Powerdork]

Death goddess

Are necromancers supposed to go about the town and talk to people on their deathbed? Are you supposed to obtain the consent of someone and then wait for them to die? Are you supposed to try to contact their spirit once in the afterlife (what spell would you use for that, commune?) or are you mostly going to animate from those who passed on from old age?

Cleric 3, core: animate dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm).
Also Cleric 3, core: speak with dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm).
If you're going to talk clerics of death gods on a level that indicates you know the material, please know the material.

[gkathellar]

The thing about deathless is that if they are created by a deity, the deity could have just as easily resurrected the person.

No. Nothing can resurrect someone who's unwilling to be resurrected. Moreover, there are costs to resurrection. A soul is dragged away from its rightful end on the planes, where it will become a petitioner, and, from there, an exemplar or a part of its patron deity. Every god is a part of the cycle of life and death, and they don't play around with it. There's a reason why resurrection is entrusted to powerful representatives of a god's material concerns, for them to judge its appropriateness.


Clearly a good deity would just do that if they wanted them alive, instead of making them some undead but not evil.

I'm not clear why you think resurrection is a uniquely good act. If resurrection were trivial, every god would make use of it, not just the good ones. Hextor has just as much use for the living (and the dead) as Heironeous.

What makes the creation of the undead an intrinsically evil act has nothing to do with the particular mechanics of the afterlife, and more to do with the use of negative energy. The action is harmful, if only cosmically, and the gods of good are generally loath to exercise it because "cosmically" is sorta their wheelhouse. Deathless are kind of a cop out in some ways because they at least theoretically remove that problem.

[Doc_Pippin1]

I would take a look at pathfinder's 3rd party class White Necromancer or Dragon Lance's Nightstalker base class which is a good aligned ghost focused quasi-Necromancer that gets 3 ghost cohorts

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/white-necromancer/

You could also use pathfinder's mythic system for gods and their servants, the mythic ability "Beyond Morality" would fit the bill completely negating alignment issues

[Westhart]

In Core, Wee Jas is a Neutral deity of death who has no problems with undead as long as they're not abused. The use of bodies with acceptance from their former hosts to good ends seems more than fine by this line of thought.
I already have a god (CN) the problem is I want her champion to be CG but lead an army of undead, but yes Wee Jas would have been excellent XD

Wee Jas is a great suggestion (she's LN).

If you're playing in Eberron, which is where Bone Knight is from, you may want to look at Karrnath (... which is even more specifically where Bone Knight is from). Karrnath has skeletons & zombies as intelligent soldiers who serve in their armed forces. Eberron is also deliberately fuzzier on the whole good-vs-evil thing, so you can be a Good person yet cast Evil spells.
Unfortunately not using Eberron, but where the champion is from was based of Karrnath :smallbiggrin:

In Eberron, Karrnath is interesting because becoming an undead to serve the country is considered a point of honor there, though not necessarily in other nations.

You might also take a look at Aerenal Elves. They instead of undead make deathless out of their ancestors so that they may guide the elves with their wisdom. Deathless are as a consequence not very common, but held in very high respect. Deathless, because they're animated by positive energy, are healed by cure spells, and evil spells like desecrate do not benefit them.

A lot of people use Wee Jas, but she's not really pro undead so much as she isn't anti-undead. She's more of a Death goddess than an undeath one. The problem with her not objecting to the creation of undead so long as they are not reanimated against their will, but how realistic is that to expect? Are necromancers supposed to go about the town and talk to people on their deathbed? Are you supposed to obtain the consent of someone and then wait for them to die? Are you supposed to try to contact their spirit once in the afterlife (what spell would you use for that, commune?) or are you mostly going to animate from those who passed on from old age? This is to say nothing of all of the monsters that necromancers would most likely be using to animate skeletons and zombies. Many of them have int of only 1 or 2, so can't meaningfully agree or disagree to something like this. It's a doctrine that sounds well and good, but seems to practically mean you will do almost no creation of undead.
Good Points, and on the elves, I want something he will be leading into battle not so much as a source of wisdom...

From the "pure RAW" point, neither Seed of Undeath spell line, nor Oath of Blood are [Evil] spells
Fell Animate feat also don't turn the spell [Evil]; use it with Painless Death spell (instakills willing target, 1st-level, no-save, no SR, non-[Evil])

"Nongood" ≠ "Evil"
Is it so bad to be Neutral with Good tendencies?

Please, sorry, but (IMHO) the very concept of "Deathless" is stupid: we already have some non-Evil Undead (Good Liches are Good, Ghosts could be of any alignment, and Mummies are just "Usually lawful evil"), while one of Elder Evils (Ragnorra) is 100% Positive Energy-based
Hmm, somehow missed the seed of undeath spells when looking through books, and I do not usually look through HoH so that is why I didn't find the oath. On alignment, I should have mentioned the goddess is CN and he is CG my bad :smallredface:

I would take a look at pathfinder's 3rd party class White Necromancer or Dragon Lance's Nightstalker base class which is a good aligned ghost focused quasi-Necromancer that gets 3 ghost cohorts

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/white-necromancer/

You could also use pathfinder's mythic system for gods and their servants, the mythic ability "Beyond Morality" would fit the bill completely negating alignment issues
I looked at the White necromancer and did not find it to do exactly what I wanted, it seemed kind of weak honestly.
I like PF's "Beyond Morality" however he is a CG paladin (Homebrew) on top of other things... Of course he could still take levels in it since he counts as whatever alignment is beneficial...

[The Viscount]

Cleric 3, core: animate dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm).
Also Cleric 3, core: speak with dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm).
If you're going to talk clerics of death gods on a level that indicates you know the material, please know the material.

If you wish to refute my on my apparent ignorance about Wee Jas please do, but speak with dead doesn't answer my questions. I'm not sure why you linked to animate dead. Did I somehow give the impression in my post that I thought clerics of Wee Jas couldn't cast animate dead?

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse.

If you're not actually speaking with the person, then they cannot give consent to you using their corpse. While you could ask the "knowledge based" question along the lines of "would this person have allowed me to animate the body" doesn't strike me as substitution for the real thing.

[RedMage125]

So I was statting out some gods and one of the god's champion was going to be a bone knight necromancer... until I realized that most undead creating spells are evil as are the spells that buff them upon creation (Such as desecrate) are [evil] and a lot of feats/PrC etc require a nongood alignment... thus I was wondering, could I use deathless and reflavour bone knight slightly along with allowing him to ignore the alignment for certain feats? (Trying to not go the whole "redeemed" route)
Some campaign Basics:
It is considered a holy honor to be able to serve after death, and thus reanimation (when resurrect and all are impossible etc.) is not looked down upon. However desecrating the corpses is heavily frowned upon, and a necromancer who kills to get bodies or doesn't tkae decent care of his undead are looked down upon, if not criminals. If anyone wishes they may list their name to not be used, although this is one of the ways that many countries fill their armies.

These spells do not take the subject's soul etc unless they are intelligent undead (vampires, lich etc)

Basically, I am wondering to what extent to go, etc would these undead be healed by consecrate, or would desecrate lose the [evil] tag when used in this manner?

Sorry if what I'm asking isn't very clear ><
Thanks!

Ultimately, the RAW answer is that those spells will never lose the [Evil] tag. Creation of undead, through any means is, officially, an Evil act, and that's the only thing that spells like Animate Dead and Create (Greater) Undead do.

That doesn't mean you can't use them for good. Raising an army of zombies from a town's cemetery to defend the town from an incoming orc horde is an Evil Act, followed by a Good one. For the caster, the sum total may be a wash, but the act of creating them will always be evil.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17124888&postcount=1) is a concept I had for a character a lot like what you are describing. It's entirely RAW (although the nation he is from is not canon). The meat of what you want is in the spoiler block at the bottom.

And for the people discusing Wee Jas, DRAGON #350 had a Core Beliefs article that will answer a lot of your questions.

[Westhart]

Ultimately, the RAW answer is that those spells will never lose the [Evil] tag. Creation of undead, through any means is, officially, an Evil act, and that's the only thing that spells like Animate Dead and Create (Greater) Undead do.

That doesn't mean you can't use them for good. Raising an army of zombies from a town's cemetery to defend the town from an incoming orc horde is an Evil Act, followed by a Good one. For the caster, the sum total may be a wash, but the act of creating them will always be evil.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17124888&postcount=1) is a concept I had for a character a lot like what you are describing. It's entirely RAW (although the nation he is from is not canon). The meat of what you want is in the spoiler block at the bottom.

And for the people discusing Wee Jas, DRAGON #350 had a Core Beliefs article that will answer a lot of your questions.

Ooh, love the character concept, I might scrap somethings and work with it, if you don't mind?

[RedMage125]

Ooh, love the character concept, I might scrap somethings and work with it, if you don't mind?

My belief is that Plagiarism Is The Sincerest Form of Flattery.

Cherry pick or poach wholesale.

[ShurikVch]

Note: negative levels - such as from Fell Drain metamagic, Enervation or Necrotic Skull Bomb (Champions of Ruin) spells, or one of powers granted by Kiss of the Vampire (Spell Compendium) - could give you some pet Wights
Yes, I read #1 post, but does those rules stretch to Animals?
Because "Wight" template in Dragon #300 says "... any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead ..." (thus, even Vermin and Plants should work :smallwink:)

Also, how about Constructs?
While it's not exactly Necromancy, but some of them are look pretty Undead-like:
Blood Golem (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020731x)
Bone Golem (Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali)
Grave Dirt Golem (Libris Mortis)
Necrophidius (Fiend Folio)
Tombstone Golem (Libris Mortis)

[Westhart]

My belief is that Plagiarism Is The Sincerest Form of Flattery.

Cherry pick or poach wholesale.
Alright, thanks!

Note: negative levels - such as from Fell Drain metamagic, Enervation or Necrotic Skull Bomb (Champions of Ruin) spells, or one of powers granted by Kiss of the Vampire (Spell Compendium) - could give you some pet Wights
Yes, I read #1 post, but does those rules stretch to Animals?
Because "Wight" template in Dragon #300 says "... any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead ..." (thus, even Vermin and Plants should work :smallwink:)

Also, how about Constructs?
While it's not exactly Necromancy, but some of them are look pretty Undead-like:
Blood Golem (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020731x)
Bone Golem (Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali)
Grave Dirt Golem (Libris Mortis)
Necrophidius (Fiend Folio)
Tombstone Golem (Libris Mortis)

I thought of constructs, and even decided to augment his forces with them, although I still want him to be able to use undead... might just house rule that mindless undead such as zombies/skeletons are not necessarily evil in the casting...

[ShurikVch]

I still want him to be able to use undead...Note: not all Undead are Evil

Even if you're unable to actually create them, you may - if met at some point - Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#evilClericsandUndead), Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), or Control (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm) them

Known non-Evil Undead (besides all aforementioned):
Blood Amniote (Libris Mortis)
Corpse Gatherer (Monster Manual II)
Crawling Slaughter (Dragon #309) - basically, Monstrous Spider Zombie, but with Web and Stench 30'
Forlorn Husk (Sandstorm)
Ghost, Frostfell (Frostburn)
Ghost Brute template (Libris Mortis)
Gravecrawler (Monster Manual II)
Mourner (Five Nations)
Rancid Beetle Zombie (Sharn - City of Towers)
Scarab Swarm, Death (Sandstorm)
Strahd's Skeletal Steed (Dragon #359)

[Westhart]

Note: not all Undead are Evil

Even if you're unable to actually create them, you may - if met at some point - Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#evilClericsandUndead), Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), or Control (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm) them

Known non-Evil Undead (besides all aforementioned):
Blood Amniote (Libris Mortis)
Corpse Gatherer (Monster Manual II)
Crawling Slaughter (Dragon #309) - basically, Monstrous Spider Zombie, but with Web and Stench 30'
Forlorn Husk (Sandstorm)
Ghost, Frostfell (Frostburn)
Ghost Brute template (Libris Mortis)
Gravecrawler (Monster Manual II)
Mourner (Five Nations)
Rancid Beetle Swarm (Sharn - City of Towers)
Scarab Swarm, Death (Sandstorm)
Strahd's Skeletal Steed (Dragon #359)

Hmm good point... on a slightly related note is controlling evil undead an evil act... say if he took a rebuked a vampire... :smallbiggrin:

[gkathellar]

There's nothing to suggest that controlling undead is intrinsically evil (since it has nothing to do with accelerating the death of the Prime Material), and indeed some undead arise naturally given the right circumstances. That said, if you're planning to use contagious forms of undeath to create more servants, that's definitely not kosher. The spells aren't evil because they have the [evil] tag - they have the [evil] tag because they do a thing that is concretely bad for all living beings everywhere.

[rferries]

I think you mentioned you're all set for the actual deity, but if you change your mind there's Evening Glory (from Libris Mortis), who is listed as being either Neutral or Neutral Good (due to poor editing). In either case she's described as a quite benevolent goddess of undead.

[Westhart]

There's nothing to suggest that controlling undead is intrinsically evil (since it has nothing to do with accelerating the death of the Prime Material), and indeed some undead arise naturally given the right circumstances. That said, if you're planning to use contagious forms of undeath to create more servants, that's definitely not kosher. The spells aren't evil because they have the [evil] tag - they have the [evil] tag because they do a thing that is concretely bad for all living beings everywhere.
Yeah...Thinking some complex plot hook that ends in him controlling a vampire with a bunch of spawn XD

I think you mentioned you're all set for the actual deity, but if you change your mind there's Evening Glory (from Libris Mortis), who is listed as being either Neutral or Neutral Good (due to poor editing). In either case she's described as a quite benevolent goddess of undead.

I'll look into it!