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infiniteneen
2017-09-21, 11:35 AM
Hey all, long time reader, first time poster. I'm looking for feedback on a new Sorcerous Origin I've dreamed up. So tell me what you think, all criticisms welcome.

Sorcerous Origin: Blood Sorcerer

Power In The Blood: Starting at first level you use Constitution as your spellcasting ability instead of Charisma.

Blood Link: Starting at first level, whenever a creature that you can see deals damage to you, you can use a reacton to mark that creature until the end of your next turn. Whenever you make an attack against the marked creature, you have advantage. Whenever you force the marked creature to take a saving throw, it has disadvantage.

Sanguine Sacrifice: Starting at sixth level, you may spend three Hit Points to gain one Sorcery Point. You cannot regain Hit Points spent in this way until you finish a short or long rest.

Blood Focus: Starting at fourteenth level, when you are below half your maximun hit points, you treat exaughstion as one level less than your current rating, and cannot be charmed or frightened.

Magic In Your Veins: Starting at eighteenth level, when you mark a creature using Blood Link after suffering damage from a spell, you may spend a Sorcery Point to select that spell from their spells known list to add to your spells known list. It counts as a sorcery spell for you but does not count against your number of spells known. You lose this spell after you finish a long rest.

JNAProductions
2017-09-22, 06:32 PM
OP as all hell.

infiniteneen
2017-09-23, 07:11 PM
OP as all hell.

Could you provide some insight beyond that? I'm trying to make something that's fun to play but still doesn't outclass everything else, so simply saying that it's OP doesn't particularly help. If you could point out why, or what features need changed, that would be great.

JNAProductions
2017-09-23, 07:14 PM
Power In The Blood is too strong.

Blood Link is too strong.

Sanguine Sacrifice is too strong.

Blood Focus is okay.

Magic In Your Veins is probably okay.

Arkhios
2017-09-23, 10:56 PM
OP as all hell.


Power In The Blood is too strong.

Blood Link is too strong.

Sanguine Sacrifice is too strong.

Blood Focus is okay.

Magic In Your Veins is probably okay.

Again I find it a bit arrogant from a fairly esteemed homebrewer to chime in and comment in this manner without offering any advice to fix it from being 'too strong'.

I mean, this subforum is supposed to be a collaborative community right? I might even consider your way to express the opinion as very similar to flaming.

It feels (to me at least) like as if you thought that "this homebrew is clearly worse than mine, and isn't worth my insights, so I'll just blatantly mock it"

It shouldn't be required to "tag" one's post with PEACH or anything to get more elaborate and fair insights/advice. JMHO

/End of rant

Knaight
2017-09-24, 04:19 AM
Power In The Blood: Starting at first level you use Constitution as your spellcasting ability instead of Charisma.
This is way too powerful - it basically gives you 2-4 extra HP per level (and on a class that normally has bad HP), while also leaving you with one fewer important attribute. It's roughly comparable to three ASIs at low level, slowly increasing to five or so.


Blood Link: Starting at first level, whenever a creature that you can see deals damage to you, you can use a reacton to mark that creature until the end of your next turn. Whenever you make an attack against the marked creature, you have advantage. Whenever you force the marked creature to take a saving throw, it has disadvantage.
First, "reaction" not "reacton". Secondly this is also on the powerful end, as free advantage for high end spells and free disadvantage on saves for high end spells are deliberately really hard to come by.


Sanguine Sacrifice: Starting at sixth level, you may spend three Hit Points to gain one Sorcery Point. You cannot regain Hit Points spent in this way until you finish a short or long rest.
Channeling the HP from Power in the Blood alone into this will over double sorcery points at a number of levels. I like it conceptually, but it's a bit much. However, with Power in the Blood removed sorcerer HP is low enough to make this actually hurt, so this might just be a PitB issue.


Blood Focus: Starting at fourteenth level, when you are below half your maximun hit points, you treat exaughstion as one level less than your current rating, and cannot be charmed or frightened.
This is a bit of a ribbon ability, but that's totally fine.


Magic In Your Veins: Starting at eighteenth level, when you mark a creature using Blood Link after suffering damage from a spell, you may spend a Sorcery Point to select that spell from their spells known list to add to your spells known list. It counts as a sorcery spell for you but does not count against your number of spells known. You lose this spell after you finish a long rest.
The mechanics here are probably fine, but the writing is clunky. "That spell from their spells known list" is particularly clunky. Something like the following might work better:

Magic In Your Veins: Starting at eighteenth level if you use Blood Link when damaged by a spell you add that spell to your spells known list until finishing a long rest.

Lalliman
2017-09-24, 05:34 AM
Power In The Blood is too strong.

Blood Link is too strong.

Sanguine Sacrifice is too strong.

Blood Focus is okay.

Magic In Your Veins is probably okay.

This post might as well read "Your homebrew is bad and you should feel bad. I'm going to make myself feel superior by mocking it instead of being helpful."

Show some sympathy for a less-experienced brewer, man.

But yes, this archetype is crazy powerful, for the reasons Knaight mentioned. The Constitution-based casting is the big issue. No class should ever be dependent on only a single stat. Even classes who are traditionally described as Single Ability Dependent really still need two good stats: their primary ability, and Constitution. Making Constitution the primary ability breaks the stat economy in a way that's very difficult to account for.

If you want to encourage a high Con score, as is appropriate for this class, provide new class features that scale with it. Sanguine Sacrifice already does that quite nicely, but you could grant something else in addition. Maybe the barbarian's Unarmored Defense, or something that encourages concentration spells, or maybe make Blood Link more dependent on your Con. (Uses per day equal to your Con mod? That seems like a reasonable nerf.)

JNAProductions
2017-09-24, 10:17 AM
I could make excuses, but I won't.

I'm sorry. I definitely came across as condescending, which wasn't my purpose, but I doubt anyone intends to very often.

Knaight gave some good advice there. Con and Dex are the two stats that should basically never be casting stats, since so much else keys off them, whereas the mental stats (and Strength) don't have as much going for them.

Thank you for calling me out, Arkhios and Lalliman. I'll try to do better in the future.

Lalliman
2017-09-24, 11:40 AM
Thank you for calling me out, Arkhios and Lalliman. I'll try to do better in the future.
I forgive you. We all have bad days. :smallsmile:

Ixidor92
2017-09-24, 12:50 PM
The other individuals in this thread have already gone over the problems that arise with this archetype, particularly with the two first-level abilities. But I had a couple of thoughts as to how you might be able to utilize the constitution score without simply making it the casting stat for the character. These are not given with any particular levels in mind, more of just abilities I thought would be thematically appropriate:

-Drain the blood: When you cast a spell that deals hit point damage to an enemy, you may spend 1 sorcery point to have that spell drain the lifeblood of your foe. The enemy takes additional necrotic damage equal to your sorcerer level + your con mod, and you heal hit points equal to the extra damage dealt (Note you only gain HP equal to the EXTRA damage dealt, not the damage of the entire spell)
-Contain the lifeblood: When you are unarmored, you have an AC equal to 10 + dex mod + con mod
-Flow of life: If you ever fall to 0 hit points, you can immediately choose to spend 2 sorcery points and recover hit points equal to 6+your con mod.
-Blood quicken: When you are forced to make a strength saving throw or dexterity saving throw, you can instead choose to counter with a constitution saving throw. Once this ability has been used, you must complete a short or long rest before you can use it again.

Those are just a couple I have off the top of my head. I would say I like the idea in concept, and some of your ideas are really cool and useful (I'm a fan of permanently losing hit points to regain sorcery points) it just needs some refinement.

infiniteneen
2017-09-24, 06:17 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. I really like the idea of a sorcerer spending hit points to gain power, someone who constantly rides the line in combat. The Sorcerous Origins in the PH never really appealed to me that much either, so I've always wanted to make my own. I'm glad this community is willing to help.

I've reworked it so that it encourages a high constitution without mandating it (aka power in the blood is now totally different). I've also made drastic changes to Blood Link and lesser changes to Sanguine Sacrifice and Magic in your Veins to reduce power slightly. So, here's the updated version:

Sorcerous Origin: Blood Sorcerer

Power in the Blood: Starting at first level, if you have a free arm you may take a bonus action to deal 1d4 slashing or piercing damage to yourself, this cannot be resisted or ignored by any means. If you do so, this turn you count as having all material components for a sorceror spell that have no gp cost. You cannot regain Hit Points spent in this way until you finish a short or long rest.

Blood Link: Starting at first level, whenever a creature that you can see deals damage to you, you can use a reaction to mark that creature until the end of your next turn. Whenever you deal damage to the marked creature, you may spend a hit dice to roll it in addition to the normal damage delt. This extra damage is necrotic. (this may need re-worded)

Sanguine Sacrifice: Starting at sixth level, as a bonus action you may spend four Hit Points to gain one Sorcery Point. You cannot regain Hit Points spent in this way until you finish a short or long rest.

Blood Focus: Starting at fourteenth level, when you are below half your maximun hit points, you treat exaughstion as one level less than your current rating, and cannot be charmed or frightened.

Magic In Your Veins: Starting at eighteenth level, whenever you use a reaction to trigger Blood Link as the result of a spell, you may spend sorcery points equal to the spell's level to add that spell to your spells known list. This spell counts as a sorcerer spell for you and does not count against your Spells Known, however you lose this spell at the end of your next long rest.

Concerns:
Blood Link: Is the new version too specific, or right for a first level feature?
Sanguine Sacrifice: I've increased the cost of HP to gain SP as well as making take a bonus action to trigger, was this too much of a nerf?
Have I created any possible combinations that might be game breaking?

Composer99
2017-09-24, 07:19 PM
The revised 1st-level feature is too weak, since you can have a component pouch or spellcasting focus in your starting equipment.

I like the idea of blood magic boosting your spells' juju, but I'm not quite sure what to suggest for a 1st-level feature that isn't overpowered. Maybe roll 1d4 for damage you take, as written, and add your Constitution modifier to the damage inflicted to a single target of the spell. As you gain levels, you can use the feature to add your Constitution modifier to the spell attack roll, if there is one, against a single target, or to the save DC against a single target. (That last part might be overpowered until pretty high level, or might be something you spend a Hit Die to activate via a separate feature, perhaps?)

The 6th-level feature is probably balanced at lower levels, but unless you're prohibited from using it out of combat, you could spam it at higher levels. Maybe make it cost Hit Dice and compensate for the steeper cost by regaining more sorcery points (say, an amount equal to your Constitution modifier, minimum of 1)? That way it still scales to become more powerful as you gain levels without getting out of hand. Although even then, it might still be overpowered. Spending 10 Hit Dice for 30 sorcery points, say, seems pretty sweet, although you might be feeling the pain having done so if you really needed those Hit Dice to recover hit points.

Ixidor92
2017-09-24, 07:25 PM
The revised 1st-level feature is too weak, since you can have a component pouch or spellcasting focus in your starting equipment.

I like the idea of blood magic boosting your spells' juju, but I'm not quite sure what to suggest for a 1st-level feature that isn't overpowered. Maybe roll 1d4 for damage you take, as written, and add your Constitution modifier to the damage inflicted to a single target of the spell. As you gain levels, you can use the feature to add your Constitution modifier to the spell attack roll, if there is one, against a single target, or to the save DC against a single target. (That last part might be overpowered until pretty high level, or might be something you spend a Hit Die to activate via a separate feature, perhaps?)
As an addendum, you may be able to add more d4's to the damage dealt for additional effects at later levels. For example, you could do the 1d4 damage to self, add con mod to spell damage at level one, and then maybe at level 14 you can take 3d4 damage to give an opponent disadvantage on a saving throw against your spell or give you advantage on your attack roll with the spell.

Lalliman
2017-09-25, 02:53 AM
The revised 1st-level feature is too weak, since you can have a component pouch or spellcasting focus in your starting equipment.
Power in the Blood is a ribbon. Blood Link is the real 1st level ability.

The new Blood Link is admittedly not very good. It's incredibly costly for what it does: you need to take a hit, spend your reaction and lose a hit die, for a chance at dealing a whopping 1d6 damage to your attacker. It can be exploited for burst damage in combination with multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray or Eldritch Blast, but even then you're effectively losing 1d6+Con HP for every 1d6 damage you deal to the target. In the long term, this ability deals more damage to you than to your target, which makes it only viable in a dire "must kill this guy quickly or we die" situation.

By comparison, at this level the draconic bloodline gets a universally-useful +1 HP/level and +3 AC, no questions asked.

I'm honestly not a big fan of spending hit dice for in-combat benefit. It lets you gain short-term power in return for long-term detriment, which is hard to balance. After all, I'm pretty sure no official class does this.

Other than that, I never play or brew full casters, so I'll leave it to others to judge how powerful the new Sanguine Sacrifice and Magic in Your Veins are.

Composer99
2017-09-25, 07:43 AM
Power in the Blood is a ribbon. Blood Link is the real 1st level ability.

The new Blood Link is admittedly not very good. It's incredibly costly for what it does: you need to take a hit, spend your reaction and lose a hit die, for a chance at dealing a whopping 1d6 damage to your attacker. It can be exploited for burst damage in combination with multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray or Eldritch Blast, but even then you're effectively losing 1d6+Con HP for every 1d6 damage you deal to the target. In the long term, this ability deals more damage to you than to your target, which makes it only viable in a dire "must kill this guy quickly or we die" situation.

By comparison, at this level the draconic bloodline gets a universally-useful +1 HP/level and +3 AC, no questions asked.

I'm honestly not a big fan of spending hit dice for in-combat benefit. It lets you gain short-term power in return for long-term detriment, which is hard to balance. After all, I'm pretty sure no official class does this.

Other than that, I never play or brew full casters, so I'll leave it to others to judge how powerful the new Sanguine Sacrifice and Magic in Your Veins are.

Weird. I totally missed it.

Anyway, OP, you could make Power in the Blood let you do extra damage to a creature with a spell when you hurt yourself (for a small amount of hit point damage, not Hit Dice expenditure), and change Blood Link to something like this:



Blood Link
Also at 1st level, whenever a creature you can see deals damage to you, you can use your reaction to create a blood link with that creature until the end of your next turn. You can sustain the blood link by taking 1 necrotic damage that ignores resistance and immunity at the end of each of your turns for up to 1 minute. While the link exists, once on each of your turns, whenever you deal damage to the target, you deal additional necrotic damage equal to your Constitution modifier.


(I'd probably prefer making it trigger when a creature hits you with a weapon attack, but that's just my preference.)

infiniteneen
2017-09-25, 07:19 PM
I didn't notice it beforehand, but Blood link definitely costs too much. What does the playground think about upping the extra damage dealt to the Hit Die plus Con mod? It would make for bigger returns and still keep the dangerous feel of the class around.

On Sanguine Sacrifice, It seems to me that sorcerers have much less utility than wizards or even warlocks out of combat; I was mostly counting on the spell list itself to restrict usage of that feature. If I'm overlooking something obvious here, please point it out or give me an example of how you can exploit it. I also never meant for the SP to carry over after a long rest, if that's the concern I can add a clause stating as much.

Anything else I'm missing?

Knaight
2017-09-25, 07:35 PM
On Sanguine Sacrifice, It seems to me that sorcerers have much less utility than wizards or even warlocks out of combat; I was mostly counting on the spell list itself to restrict usage of that feature. If I'm overlooking something obvious here, please point it out or give me an example of how you can exploit it. I also never meant for the SP to carry over after a long rest, if that's the concern I can add a clause stating as much.

It's a lot less concerning now that PitB has been changed, and it was mostly in combat where SS had the potential to cause problems.