The Aspiring Necromancer – How do you interpret/utilize “Animate Dead” in 3.5e?

[BlackOnyx]

TL;DR — Given that they follow you forever, what do you think of the undead created by Animate Dead?


Mechanical theories? Benefits? Limitations? Exploits or creative spell combinations? I'd love to hear your thoughts.


***


Animate Dead. One of the quintessential necromancy spells in D&D. Shambling hordes of undead minions—there's precious few images that can top the grandiose display of power, control, and terror as an army of the dead.


Coming in at Cleric 3 and Sor/Wiz 4, Animate Dead represents a turning point in the development of the aspiring necromancer's spell list.


While there are other means of assembling an undead army before this point—command undead, cleric rebuking, and the like—gaining access to Animate Dead represents a transition to an entirely new level of power and taboo—the creation of unlife. Later spells, like Create Undead and Create (Greater) Undead, take this even further, allowing one to bring increasingly dangerous and intelligent undead into existence.


However, unlike the spells that come after it, the description for Animate Dead features a certain snippet of text that sets it apart. A single sentence so short that's easy to overlook.


Per the spell's entry in the 3.5e Player's Handbook:


“The Undead you create remain under your control indefinitely.” (198-199)


Indefinitely.


At just 25gp worth of black onyx—less than the price of studded leather armor—you can animate a skeleton or zombie minion who will follow you forever. Untiring. Unceasing. Requiring no food, water, or magical energy. A negative energy powered automaton—entirely, absolutely, suicidally obedient.


Control Undead lasts a few minutes.


Command Undead might last you a month if you're high enough level.


Cleric rebuking is only good so long as another character doesn't come along with a higher turning check.


Animate Dead lasts forever.


In this way, Animate Dead seems to represent a particularly special relationship between creator and created in 3.5e D&D. As an innate part of their nature and being, the undead created by Animate Dead are bound to the necromancers that wrought them. Though other spells and effects might influence them temporarily, once dispelled, they'll always come back to their source.


That all said, per RAW or your own interpretations, how do you view the relationship between master and servant in Animate Dead?



Do animated dead contain fragments of the caster's soul, the two beings eternally bound to one another beyond the boundaries of time and space?




Per descriptions like those in the Libris Mortis, do animated dead act as a type of undead spawn, regarding their creators with a twisted sense of slavish affection?




Do animated dead with intelligence (per the Awaken Undead spell or other methods) regard their creators with the same obedience as their mindless counterparts? Would they realize and lament their servile instincts toward their master?




Given the "indefinite servitude" clause, have you come across any special/creative uses of Animate Dead that aren't possible with other undead creation spells? Are the lower tier undead created by the spell even worth it to you?




In short, feel free to go wild with this. Personal interpretations. Cool spell combinations and exploits. Headcanon lore. In my mind, Animate Dead is one of the most iconic and thought provoking evil spells in 3.5e; I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on it.


**


Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5. Renton, WA, Wizards of the Coast, Inc., 2003. pp.198-199

[AnimeTheCat]

Here's what I like to do with animated undead.

1) Create push-powered turbines that will provide a mundane production facility with heat, water flow, mechanical motion, etc (a factory, brewery, etc).
2) Create lots of them. Lowest HD possible with acceptable strength scores.
3) Create traps of "Command Undead" that are self-resetting and place them under where the undead walk while cranking the turbines.
4) Create as many undead as you possibly can, putting them to permanent work powering your facilities.
5) Sell your machine manufactured product at normal market value, expand.
6) Expand. Diversify your products. Build more factories. Diversify products even more.
7) World domination through economics.

You can have constant production of products for only the cost of the raw resources. It doesn't even cost you your own time. If a baker charges 5 silver for a loaf of bread, you can probably charge 1 silver and buy the grain for 50 more loaves of bread. You'll put that baker out of business in no time. You'll solve any sort of hunger issue. You'll effectively own everything because you've made everything reliant on you.

If someone tries to make you stop, you have a nigh infinite undead army that you can just stop controling and turn loose on the mortals. No need to control them all at once, just let them run rampant.

[Silva Stormrage]

For fluff wise I always ruled that mindless undead didn't really interact much with the corpse's soul. The most I fluffed it as is that they used the soul as an anchor but all that accomplished is the soul being unable to be resurrected and caused issues with raise dead if the undead was destroyed. The power for mindless and regular undead in my setting is caused by essentially leeching energy from the environment around them. This results in large empires of undead often killing the land they live on ala warcraft scourge often by accident. A single necromancer is unlikely to have much of an effect though.

As for the animate dead spell itself I usually don't pay much attention to the indefinite clause as I see it as "indefinite unless something messes with it" as you can clearly release the undead created by the spell by exceeding your cap of controllable undead. Thus things like command undead (Spell or cleric ability), control undead and the like would break the connection until it could be reestablished.

My favorite way to get mass mindless undead is chained command undead though. Casting that once a day leaves you with an absurd amount of undead under your control.

[Psyren]

You'll effectively own everything because you've made everything reliant on you.

Assuming you're playing in a D&D setting, good deities/churches will annihilate you long before you can structure the economy around undead labor. What you'd be doing would be effectively like using robots that leak radioactive or toxic waste - in the short term it might seem like a good idea, but in the long term the side effects per Libiris Mortis would outweigh any good your zombified workforce would do.

[AnimeTheCat]

Assuming you're playing in a D&D setting, good deities/churches will annihilate you long before you can structure the economy around undead labor. What you'd be doing would be effectively like using robots that leak radioactive or toxic waste - in the short term it might seem like a good idea, but in the long term the side effects per Libiris Mortis would outweigh any good your zombified workforce would do.

Well, keeping the undead workforce underground and out of sight and using the existing living population as farm hands and skilled labor would serve the twofold purpose of endearing the populace (unknowingly) to an evil overlords while simultaneously giving the living no reason to suspect foul magic are afoot. When the time comes for fighting you have a mob of people which can become more for your army and you have your existing army. An additional self-resetting magic trap of gentle repose would serve to delay/halt the deterioration process further.

Lastly, for every good church there is an equally evil church and I would be a fairly rich servant of such a church. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that the evil church I affiliate with would seek to distract the good churches from the process/plan. Further, if I'm making enough money, I can hire armies to protect me or train my own to specifically combat the good churches. I wouldn't go it alone, but I would provide the financial backbone and stability for said armies.

It's not a perfect plan, but it's better than just having a visible undead army that people despise. It's mechanizing undead, fooling the masses, and building up allies carefully.

[Psyren]

Well, keeping the undead workforce underground and out of sight and using the existing living population as farm hands and skilled labor would serve the twofold purpose of endearing the populace (unknowingly) to an evil overlords while simultaneously giving the living no reason to suspect foul magic are afoot. When the time comes for fighting you have a mob of people which can become more for your army and you have your existing army. An additional self-resetting magic trap of gentle repose would serve to delay/halt the deterioration process further.

Between divinations and Portfolio Sense, your secret won't be one very long no matter where you stash them.



Lastly, for every good church there is an equally evil church and I would be a fairly rich servant of such a church.

The problem here is the problem evil always has - vainglory and chronic backstabbing disorder. Whereas pretty much all the good churches would be united against you, you'd have some evil churches that support you, some that want to weaponize your workforce into something far more traditionally evil, and others who like your idea but simply want to see themselves in charge instead of you. You'd be waging a war on countless fronts.

[BlackOnyx]

The power for mindless and regular undead in my setting is caused by essentially leeching energy from the environment around them. This results in large empires of undead often killing the land they live on ala warcraft scourge often by accident. A single necromancer is unlikely to have much of an effect though.


I like the mechanic; definitely adds an element of calculated risk into the mix.


I've always found it interesting how vague the D&D sourcebooks tend to be about the nature of undead. Even in the Libris Mortis, a lot of the descriptions of negative energy/animation are described as "theories." They leave a lot of room for players to develop/discover the finer points themselves.


Personally, my interpretation of positive and negative energy is more of a matter/antimatter scenario. When the two meet, they essentially cancel each other out. Under that pretext, energy drain spells/effects are more of a "negative power surge" than a "positive energy drain." They simply represent a higher flow of negative energy through the undead conduit into the material plane.



Thus things like command undead (Spell or cleric ability), control undead and the like would break the connection until it could be reestablished.


By reestablished, do you mean they would automatically return to their original master once the conflicting spell effect ended? Or would the original caster have to resort to things like rebuking/command undead from that point on? (Just curious.)



My favorite way to get mass mindless undead is chained command undead though. Casting that once a day leaves you with an absurd amount of undead under your control.


I like this....I like this a lot.

Methinks I know what to take as one of my next metamagic feats.

[BlackOnyx]

The problem here is the problem evil always has - vainglory and chronic backstabbing disorder. Whereas pretty much all the good churches would be united against you, you'd have some evil churches that support you, some that want to weaponize your workforce into something far more traditionally evil, and others who like your idea but simply want to see themselves in charge instead of you.


Depending on the type of campaign setting you play in, I could actually see this interpretation of evil/undead-using churches as a bit misleading. The evil empires and organizations that adventurers thwart are often the ones that stand out the most. Of course it will seem like every evil church is just a group of impulsive megalomaniacs if those are the types of evil churches you're dealing with.


The successful evil churches (most likely some shade of Lawful Evil) are the ones that keep a low profile for decades, centuries, or millennia. They play it smart. Keep to the shadows. Pursue ambition while realizing that a culture of constant backstabbing only drags their chances of success down.


That said, selecting a RAW deity that doesn't idealize torment, cruelty, or blatantly evil escapades is the real challenge. Wee Jas (LN rather than LE) is probably your best bet, as she is described as "allowing for" the creation of undead "within the confines of the law." A nation of law abiding death worshippers with respect for use of the undead could probably function just as smoothly (if not moreso) than a nation influenced by a church with the moral imperative to "do good."

[rel]

The problem here is the problem evil always has - vainglory and chronic backstabbing disorder. Whereas pretty much all the good churches would be united against you...

I don't know what games you've been playing but every published adventure or dungeon I've seen feature well organised and loyal forces of evil opposed by entirely inept and useless forces of good.
If not for a convenient band of wandering murder hobos (the PC's) deciding the bad guys loot would look better on them evil would triumph because the mighty forces of good seem incapable of running a bath or planning their way out of a paper bag.

[Goaty14]

The Warlock Handbook suggested getting the animate dead-type invocation before getting the fly-type invocation, because if you animate, say, a Giant Eagle, then you (and your party) has a form of permanent flight, as opposed to yourself.

[Silva Stormrage]

By reestablished, do you mean they would automatically return to their original master once the conflicting spell effect ended? Or would the original caster have to resort to things like rebuking/command undead from that point on? (Just curious.)


Unless the effect is permanent until released (Like rebuke/command undead) once the conflicting spell wears off the caster of the animate dead spell regains control. Not sure if thats RAW but thats how I have always ruled it.

Really Animate dead is for making massive HP sponges and tanks rather than really effective combatants once you get past like 10th level.

If you are looking for other good tricks for animate dead try getting a lesser metamagic rod of fell energy. It increases the spell's set bonuses to undead by 2. So for something like bull's strength it makes the strength bonus +6 instead of +4. However, what you REALLy want to use it for is desecrate as it turns the 1 hp/HD in 3 HP/HD which near an altar becomes 6 hp/HD! It's an insane amount of health for your minions as a permanent bonus for a pretty low investment cost.

[Mordaedil]

There is a limit to the spell, in terms of number of undead you can control at any time. But this isn't always a problem as you can always put all undead under current control into a room and tell them to stop and devourer anyone who enters, close the door and then dismiss them and populate your dungeon by using undead from everywhere that you stuff into closet spaces in your dungeon.

Just make sure you take the proper levels in dungeon lord and you can really move about freely and put your undead absolutely everywhere, keeping only the ones in your throne room under your constant control.

Now you can probably handle any pesky adventurer that comes knocking, considering they'd have to be appropriate level for you, but the rest of your dungeon far exceeds your level.

[Eldariel]

Animate Dead can also create Zombie Dragons (which rock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon)) and Skeletal Dragons [Draconomicon has the Dragon-specific special templates], which lack HD limits and are incredibly powerful, particularly Zombies with access to ½ power breath weapon (that's still more than plenty, especially if the original was a save-or-lose). Zombies retaining their flight makes them awesome transports too. Those keep their combat potential all the way up to level 20 - your Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon can pretend to be Blue-Eyes White with its 滅びの爆裂疾風弾 ("Swift Torrent of Utter Annihilation"). Disintegrate line, so pretty appropriate.

Also, Hydras can be souped up if you have access to Greater Magic Fang and some buff items. A 10-Headed Hydra still retains its head regeneration as a Zombie since it's a natural ability just like its ability to attack with all heads after movement or in charge. This allows it to grow up to 20 Heads permanently (however many temporarily) and then you can Reach Chain Greater Magic Fang all of them (or give it an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - 20 Oils of +5 GMW would run you 60k and 30k XP in Permanencies and it'd be Dispellable while the item can always be given to a new Hydra once the old one dies) and give the 20-Headed Hydra some bonus Strength in an item or a spell and suddenly you're +23 to hit (each head at 1d10+14 - they munch low AC targets up pretty efficiently at 19d10+266 and are even workable against stock Balors and the like at 10d10+140ish, though DR does negate most of their damage for just 10d10-10 for 45 average at 10 heads hitting). It takes a bit more effort to get it to the +30 level you'd want to have for a level 20 creature, but 20 attacks that can be done after movement is nothing to scoff at. Transform into a Nightshade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) with Shapechange for Undead-buffing aura helps too. +25 is already a bit closer, and Haste would push it to +26 (and arguably give it a second full attack). +27 at 1d10+15 with one Wish increasing Str. Making it Invisible as per Greater Invisibility might work vs. some things as might just Solid Fog or in general Fog-effects. And you can use any flying big thing for party transport in style, particularly overland. You can even use them to transport your Zombies to combat; Zombie Dragons bombarding enemies with Zombie Hydras, anyone? :smallwink: I suppose you could always order them to lower their mind-affecting immunity and Greater Heroism (or Heroism) them for some extra numbers but that feels iffy RAW-wise.


Of course, generally it's convenient to keep your combat Zombies and such under Command Undead, since they're always handy for you to recast - and since it's one casting no matter target HD so moving your big undead to Command Undead is more spell/pool efficient than casting a bunch of Command Undeads on the 1 HD grunts. Use your normal control pool for the Zombie/Skeleton servants/workforce at home. Tireless labour and such. Also perpetual motion machines, manservants (skeletonservants?), item carriers, beasts of burden, and so on.

[Silva Stormrage]

Animate Dead can also create Zombie Dragons (which rock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon)) and Skeletal Dragons [Draconomicon has the Dragon-specific special templates], which lack HD limits and are incredibly powerful, particularly Zombies with access to ½ power breath weapon (that's still more than plenty, especially if the original was a save-or-lose). Zombies retaining their flight makes them awesome transports too. Those keep their combat potential all the way up to level 20 - your Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon can pretend to be Blue-Eyes White with its 滅びの爆裂疾風弾 ("Swift Torrent of Utter Annihilation"). Disintegrate line, so pretty appropriate.

Also, Hydras can be souped up if you have access to Greater Magic Fang and some buff items. A 10-Headed Hydra still retains its head regeneration as a Zombie since it's a natural ability just like its ability to attack with all heads after movement or in charge. This allows it to grow up to 20 Heads permanently (however many temporarily) and then you can Reach Chain Greater Magic Fang all of them (or give it an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 - 20 Oils of +5 GMW would run you 60k and 30k XP in Permanencies and it'd be Dispellable while the item can always be given to a new Hydra once the old one dies) and give the 20-Headed Hydra some bonus Strength in an item or a spell and suddenly you're +23 to hit (each head at 1d10+14 - they munch low AC targets up pretty efficiently at 19d10+266 and are even workable against stock Balors and the like at 10d10+140ish, though DR does negate most of their damage for just 10d10-10 for 45 average at 10 heads hitting). It takes a bit more effort to get it to the +30 level you'd want to have for a level 20 creature, but 20 attacks that can be done after movement is nothing to scoff at. Transform into a Nightshade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) with Shapechange for Undead-buffing aura helps too. +25 is already a bit closer, and Haste would push it to +26 (and arguably give it a second full attack). Making it Invisible as per Greater Invisibility might work vs. some things as might just Solid Fog or in general Fog-effects. And you can use any flying big thing for party transport in style, particularly overland. You can even use them to transport your Zombies to combat; Zombie Dragons bombarding enemies with Zombie Hydras, anyone? :smallwink: I suppose you could always order them to lower their mind-affecting immunity and Greater Heroism (or Heroism) them for some extra numbers but that feels iffy RAW-wise.


Of course, generally it's convenient to keep your combat Zombies and such under Command Undead, since they're always handy for you to recast - and since it's one casting no matter target HD so moving your big undead to Command Undead is more spell/pool efficient than casting a bunch of Command Undeads on the 1 HD grunts. Use your normal control pool for the Zombie/Skeleton servants/workforce at home. Tireless labour and such. Also perpetual motion machines, manservants (skeletonservants?), item carriers, beasts of burden, and so on.

Let me correct myself. Animate dead minions can TOTALLY replace the fighter in the party utterly and be fairly effective bruisers and melee combatants if you find the correct undead (Or bind them yourself) but at higher levels slow moving (20ft move speed) huge sized combatants with no flight have a tendency to not be able to hurt the threatening enemies who have flight and high powered spells.

In a mid/low op game they can be hilariously game breaking though.

[Eldariel]

Let me correct myself. Animate dead minions can TOTALLY replace the fighter in the party utterly and be fairly effective bruisers and melee combatants if you find the correct undead (Or bind them yourself) but at higher levels slow moving (20ft move speed) huge sized combatants with no flight have a tendency to not be able to hurt the threatening enemies who have flight and high powered spells.

In a mid/low op game they can be hilariously game breaking though.

Well, giving them flight just requires putting them on something that can fly - like having your Hydras on top of Dragons from where they can hit or jump on targets. Though spells could be used to make them fly too but that's a bit resource intensive for what you get. Honestly, I'd mostly use undead minions higher up to munch up on the trash you don't feel like bothering with. And of course, Zombie Dragons are good regardless of the level; DC 30+ Disintegrate Rays, Blind Cones, etc. are pretty hot even in fairly high op. At least they can eat up enemy actions/defenses in a combat - and of course, while they have to stop and stall to breathe, Zombie Dragons normally have a fairly respectable mobility of ~200' per round.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Create a statue of a Prismatic Great Wyrm (78 hd) via wall of stone, fabricate, or stone shape.
2. Cast Shrink Object until it's medium sized.
3. Cast Stone to Flesh.
4. End the Shrink Objects to get a Colossal Prismatic Great Wyrm corpse.
5. Animate it by boosting your CL to 26 and having the Deathbound Domain. Zombie or skeleton, your choice.

If 26hd is too high, settle for a smaller prismatic great wyrm corpse.

You may have to get a little creative to shrink the statue. Maybe divide it into pieces, shrink them, and assemble them once shrunk.

[Psyren]

That said, selecting a RAW deity that doesn't idealize torment, cruelty, or blatantly evil escapades is the real challenge. Wee Jas (LN rather than LE) is probably your best bet, as she is described as "allowing for" the creation of undead "within the confines of the law." A nation of law abiding death worshippers with respect for use of the undead could probably function just as smoothly (if not moreso) than a nation influenced by a church with the moral imperative to "do good."

Wee Jas sanctioning the occasional bit of necromancy is a far cry from a mass undead raising scheme. Her dogma would very clearly pit her against that quite thoroughly.


I don't know what games you've been playing but every published adventure or dungeon I've seen feature well organised and loyal forces of evil opposed by entirely inept and useless forces of good.
If not for a convenient band of wandering murder hobos (the PC's) deciding the bad guys loot would look better on them evil would triumph because the mighty forces of good seem incapable of running a bath or planning their way out of a paper bag.

And yet - the bad guys still don't win because the world is not overrun by undead currently. So all this scheme would do is make the next band of wandering murder hobos target you, and if they fail the next, and the next.

[Silva Stormrage]

Well, giving them flight just requires putting them on something that can fly - like having your Hydras on top of Dragons from where they can hit or jump on targets. Though spells could be used to make them fly too but that's a bit resource intensive for what you get. Honestly, I'd mostly use undead minions higher up to munch up on the trash you don't feel like bothering with. And of course, Zombie Dragons are good regardless of the level; DC 30+ Disintegrate Rays, Blind Cones, etc. are pretty hot even in fairly high op. At least they can eat up enemy actions/defenses in a combat - and of course, while they have to stop and stall to breathe, Zombie Dragons normally have a fairly respectable mobility of ~200' per round.

Ya they are great for dealing with trash mobs to make sure you don't get swarmed.

For zombie dragons they have acquisition problems, it's somewhat hard to find high HD dragon corpses lying around. Especially ones with the unique breath weapons. Their maneuverability is also poor which means they pretty much have to fly in a straight line. Good but not perfect. Rebuked bone creatures of wizards you recently defeated are much more reliable and easier to acquire at those levels in my opinion.

And no the stone to flesh trick doesn't work. You created a ton of flesh in the shape of a dragon not a corpse of a dragon. It doesn't have a soul, can't be raised from the dead via regular resurrection magic, no bones, no organs, etc etc. It's just not a trick that really works under scrutiny. PAO might work but I would be hesitant to call a statue of a prismatic dragon non valuable.

[RoboEmperor]

And no the stone to flesh trick doesn't work. You created a ton of flesh in the shape of a dragon not a corpse of a dragon. It doesn't have a soul, can't be raised from the dead via regular resurrection magic, no bones, no organs, etc etc.

In pathfinder you're right, in 3.5 you're wrong. The RAW is very clear in 3.5, you create a corpse not flesh.

edit: Also having a soul is completely irrelevant. Animate Dead creates a link between the corpse and the negative energy plane which brings it to unlife. No soul required.

[Silva Stormrage]

In pathfinder you're right, in 3.5 you're wrong. The RAW is very clear in 3.5, you create a corpse not flesh.

edit: Also having a soul is completely irrelevant. Animate Dead creates a link between the corpse and the negative energy plane which brings it to unlife. No soul required.

RAW you are correct it seems, however thats such a blatant disregard for RAI I can't imagine anyone allowing that to work.

The first line, "The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. " Which describes what it does describes no bones, no organs, etc etc. What it's describing in the line you are referencing is that it change a stone golem to a flesh golem but if you tried to just create a flesh golem from scratch with it you don't get anything. The word corpse is used in place of "Useless lump of flesh" it doesn't mean and was never intended to be a "You can animate anything you want with a 5th level spell. Here have the corpse of Asmodeus". Really that breaks everything so much that it would never fly in a real game. Otherwise you could do things like use absorb mind on a statue to get information from the "Corpse" of a creature. Mind flayers would use stone to flesh to mass produce brains to eat, etc etc. It's a REALLY blatant abuse.

And while what animate dead does to the soul is vague and never defined it clearly does SOMETHING or else animating a creature as a zombie as a skeleton would have no impact on effects like true resurrection.

[RoboEmperor]

RAW you are correct it seems, however thats such a blatant disregard for RAI I can't imagine anyone allowing that to work.

"Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)"

The RAI here is clear you create a lifeless body for someone to possess with spells like magic jar, because it specifically states you get flesh that can't move until it gets a life force or magical energy. Magic Jar is a life force, animate dead is magical energy.

Everything in 3.5 is broken. We're talking about the same authors who created Efreetis without restrictions, Solars with chain gate, Flesh to Salt that breaks wealth so easily, etc. so saying "OMG THIS WILL BREAK THE GAME" is not an argument.

There is no soul in a corpse. The soul moved on. Even outsiders who don't have the dual nature (soul and body) leave their bodies behind so their essence can create a new body in the abyss (fiendish codex I). There is 0 soul in a dead corpse. Even psionic powers like Astral Seed clearly show dead bodies don't have residual soul left over. There are literally hundreds of RAW quotes that say there is no soul left over in a dead body, so if you want to prove me wrong, give me 1 quote from RAW that says I'm wrong.

Dead Body + Negative Energy = Mindless Undead controlled by its puppeteer. That is animate dead. No residual soul required.

[The Viscount]

Personally, my interpretation of positive and negative energy is more of a matter/antimatter scenario. When the two meet, they essentially cancel each other out. Under that pretext, energy drain spells/effects are more of a "negative power surge" than a "positive energy drain." They simply represent a higher flow of negative energy through the undead conduit into the material plane.

There's definite support for this. There's Energons for the Positive and Negative energy planes, and if they ever meet they charge at each other and explode.

A very good use of animate undead that I don't think gets enough discussion is the creation of a Necrosis Carnex, which is already intelligent and has bottomless healing for undead, which is very useful for non-Dread Necromancers. They're pretty fragile so won't be great in combat, but have a nice debuff aura.

How an awakened undead views the Necromancer is I think shaped by the creature itself. Creatures of intelligence 1-2 would view the necromancer like a perfectly trained animal. If the animated creature was from a society in which a concept of slavery exists, I imagine this would be the dynamic they view the relationship in.

If you have enough undead for it, Door of Decay pairs really well with some skeletons spread miles apart acting as movable teleportation doorways.

My favorite use for Animate Dead came from my DM in a campaign a few years back. He had a necromancer who took destruction retribution and used the bulk of the control pool on crows. They maintain fly speed so could do some spying, but their primary purpose was to throw themselves at the ground, die from falling damage, and set off an explosion. It's not a lot of damage, but at only 1/4HD you can have a ton of them and they are a nightmare at lower levels

[Eldariel]

Ya they are great for dealing with trash mobs to make sure you don't get swarmed.

For zombie dragons they have acquisition problems, it's somewhat hard to find high HD dragon corpses lying around. Especially ones with the unique breath weapons. Their maneuverability is also poor which means they pretty much have to fly in a straight line. Good but not perfect. Rebuked bone creatures of wizards you recently defeated are much more reliable and easier to acquire at those levels in my opinion.

And no the stone to flesh trick doesn't work. You created a ton of flesh in the shape of a dragon not a corpse of a dragon. It doesn't have a soul, can't be raised from the dead via regular resurrection magic, no bones, no organs, etc etc. It's just not a trick that really works under scrutiny. PAO might work but I would be hesitant to call a statue of a prismatic dragon non valuable.

Dread Warriors rock too but I generally consider specific class leveled PCs the rarest sort of commodity. No way to create those: they have to be born and trained while Dragons are powerful by virtue of being Dragons. Draconomicon defines Dragon Graveyards and Teleport & Scry Location/Locate Object do exist. PAO too - the limitation seems to be about intrinsic value like gold or diamonds for spell components. While a dragon corpse certainly has value, there seems to be no INTRINSIC value to it.

[Sagetim]

Here's what I like to do with animated undead.

1) Create push-powered turbines that will provide a mundane production facility with heat, water flow, mechanical motion, etc (a factory, brewery, etc).
2) Create lots of them. Lowest HD possible with acceptable strength scores.
3) Create traps of "Command Undead" that are self-resetting and place them under where the undead walk while cranking the turbines.
4) Create as many undead as you possibly can, putting them to permanent work powering your facilities.
5) Sell your machine manufactured product at normal market value, expand.
6) Expand. Diversify your products. Build more factories. Diversify products even more.
7) World domination through economics.

You can have constant production of products for only the cost of the raw resources. It doesn't even cost you your own time. If a baker charges 5 silver for a loaf of bread, you can probably charge 1 silver and buy the grain for 50 more loaves of bread. You'll put that baker out of business in no time. You'll solve any sort of hunger issue. You'll effectively own everything because you've made everything reliant on you.

If someone tries to make you stop, you have a nigh infinite undead army that you can just stop controling and turn loose on the mortals. No need to control them all at once, just let them run rampant.

Um, no, you won't solve the farming problem by buying up all the supply. That will just run up the price of grain or whatever else you are buying up, until you get to a tipping point where a regular person can't afford to buy the things they need to eat, then you have starving masses and, quite possibly, a crashing farming economy. To solve hunger problems you need three things: A means of preserving food for significant periods of time (we do it with refrigeration), a means of distributing the food around the area you are trying to serve (Plains, Trains, And Automobiles), and most importantly, to increase the food being grown to the point that you can meet the needs, and then some, of all the people you are trying to feed (Crop Rotation, Fertilizer, Insecticides, etc).

---------------

In response to trying to use stone to flesh to create a corpse: What about the bones? I don't care about the other organs, those don't really matter for undead creation, what matters is bones. And I suppose some flesh for zombies, but we've got that covered already, now don't we? So, other than the one line in Flesh to Stone mentioning a regular statue becoming a corpse, where are the bones coming from? The spell seems to specify that it just creates flesh, not bones. Now, organs are flesh, muscles are flesh, skin is flesh. Veins, etc? Sure. But the bones are the part that bugs me about this plan.

Now, you've specified using Fabricate to make the statue, and that's a good, solid plan. Because it means you could specify organs, bones, and other internal details for your statue without having to sculpt every little bit and then glue it all together or make it out of cement and pour various bits into moulds while suspending the various pieces into their correct locations. It's not impossible to make an anatomically correct statue out of 'stone' as long as you're willing to count concrete as stone. But there wouldn't be much point in real life, beyond 'I did it' or 'to mess with people'. But when you can turn that stone into a body, well, that gets you something.

In any case, I think there's two fun directions this could go: bones are generated by the Animate Dead spell, as long as you have enough piles of dead body substance to be the same mass as a corpse. This could make for particularly hilarious encounters with Renderers and other people working awful professions in a medieval economy getting disgruntled, learning the dark arts, and raising armies of skeletons out of pools of fat and glue.

The other fun direction, to me, is allowing Stone to Flesh to be smart enough as a spell to recognize bone as bone, etc, and transform things into what they seem to be. This seems to be implied with the spell anyway, as you can't dispel someone free of Flesh to Stone. There isn't really any residual magic on the statue in question, it just used to be a person, and now it's a statue. Now, I would be wary about letting you sculpt your way into having massive undead dragons, or zombified Demon Princes, or what have you, but as long as the players aren't being hilariously abusive of the concept, I think it could be fun.

-----------
To answer the thread op:
1) No. The control the spellcaster exerts over the undead they have created is magical in nature. It doesn't have to do with the caster putting fragments of themselves into their creations (or the spell would have an xp cost, the 3.5 shorthand for soulstuff). Also, control doesn't necessarily revert if someone else usurps it from you. Sure, command or control undead might leave the undead back into your control when it ends, but if a cleric rebukes your undead successfully, they don't revert if the cleric dies. They just become uncontrolled. At the least, that's how I always figured it.

2) Well, since mindless undead are mindless, I don't think they're going to act like a dim puppy or an affectionate cat or anything. Their behavior is going to run much more in the vein of robotic literal order taking. Like an unseen servant, but capable of taking complex and precise orders. For sentient undead, it probably depends on what they were before hand and what they have been turned into. If you go around creating vampires, they're probably going to want to snack on your neck or try to dominate you, etc.

3) Yes, more or less. They might try to weasel their way around orders, undermine their master, petition for freedom, plan to escape, or what have you. But as long as they are within the creator's hit die limit for control, they don't really have a way around that. And since most undead seem to have their alignment set to evil, they're probably not going to be very chill with the arrangement.

4) Farming. Animate the skeletons of farmers so that their bones can continue to work the land. Give them masterwork tools, and set them to the task. With living people freed up to do other work, they can be educated and join the skilled labor force to set about doing other things with their lives. You could potentially build a kind of utopian society on the backs of undead labor. The trade off, of course, is that when you die of old age, your body joins the work force. Add in incentives to learn necromancy, such that people who learn animate dead on their own, swear the right binding oaths, etc, can pursue options like becoming a necropolitan, or what have you, and join the glorious ranks of immortal middle management. The point, of course, wouldn't to be 'in charge' of everything, but to have the power and position to relax in more luxurious manners than the average person. After all, being in charge is More work. Sprinkle in masterwork gear to flavor for your animate hordes, possibly up to and including kitting your entire army out in masterwork full plate, with heavy shields and longswords. While your average medieval army might be thousands of peasants and then some guys in armor, your country would be fielding it's labor force in armor equivalent to a knight, and would have a penchant for not dying when shot with arrows.

[BlackOnyx]

Wee Jas sanctioning the occasional bit of necromancy is a far cry from a mass undead raising scheme. Her dogma would very clearly pit her against that quite thoroughly.


I don't know, I'd actually argue that animating dead (if approached in a systematically lawful way) wouldn't conflict with her ideals.


Per the 3.5e handbook, clerics of Wee Jas (as well as Nerull) are granted access to the death domain. Among the spells listed in that domain are Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create (Greater) Undead. It would seem odd to offer that domain under her name if she was opposed to the use of those particular spells.


Granted, I could see the issue if the undead in question were being used as "toys," but as the backbone of a productive, pious, death conscious society? I daresay she'd be more than accepting of the setup.

[BlackOnyx]

No. The control the spellcaster exerts over the undead they have created is magical in nature. It doesn't have to do with the caster putting fragments of themselves into their creations (or the spell would have an xp cost, the 3.5 shorthand for soulstuff).


A fair point on the soul sharing aspect. Given the precedent set by other spells that do require the xp cost, this would seem to make the most sense mechanically.


That said, it still seems a little odd (to me at least) that a 3rd level spell would have such a potentially long lasting ongoing magical effect. I wonder if there's any RAW explanations that offer more insight on the subject. (Also, if it was ruled as a standard, ongoing magical effect, would Dispel Magic successfully negate one's influence over their animated dead as well?)


If soul "splitting" is out of the question, I'd almost wonder if the scenario plays out as some form of soul "tethering"--creating a concrete, invisible bond to the caster's soul rather than an ongoing magic effect. A caster could only have so many "tethers" (reflected by the spells HD limit) as the strength of their "soul" (ECL) would allow. Releasing extra undead from service would essentially reflect willfully cutting those bonds.


It would also explain why the undead from Create Undead don't automatically fall under your control--the more potent nature of their undead type don't allow them to be so easily bonded. Following that logic, animated dead that later acquire sentience (via awaken undead) might steadily grow more independent as they approach the ECL of their creator.



Also, control doesn't necessarily revert if someone else usurps it from you. Sure, command or control undead might leave the undead back into your control when it ends, but if a cleric rebukes your undead successfully, they don't revert if the cleric dies. They just become uncontrolled. At the least, that's how I always figured it.


Personally, when it comes to this sort of situation, I've always looked at the "Multiple Mental Control Effects" clause 3.5e Player's Handbook.


"Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other...If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys." (172)


Although rebuke commanding does offer the benefit of mental control/communication, I'm not sure its presence would necessarily negate the original caster's control via animate dead. Should the opposing cleric die, the lingering effect might still remain (if the were to revive), but it seems like the original caster should still be able to control his undead as he always had.



Yes, more or less. They might try to weasel their way around orders, undermine their master, petition for freedom, plan to escape, or what have you.


This could definitely make for some engaging roleplaying with the right players. (I.e. forming a legislative council of undead that work with the caster as a lead executive.)



...and join the glorious ranks of immortal middle management.


This is hilarious.


"No no. It's Assistant to the Regional Overlord."


Totally planning out a campaign based off an undead version of Dunder Mifflin. ("The Dungeon.")

[rel]

And yet - the bad guys still don't win because the world is not overrun by undead currently. So all this scheme would do is make the next band of wandering murder hobos target you, and if they fail the next, and the next.

...Okay? I'm not sure what how this should be implemented in an actual game or where the fun comes from.

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to what your game is about; what the players (and remember the GM is just another player) sat down at the table to do.

I guess if the game is undead the raising then managing your horde and avoiding do gooders is what takes up the bulk of the game. Vampire hunters showing up to ask qustions then getting into a fight when they notice Vlad the butler is expected.

If the game is a kill things and take their stuff romp then someone getting angry because the wizard owns a zombie or the barbarian blew his nose on the kings robe is likewise fine. The game is about fighting, the reasons for it are more an excuse than anything.

If you are playing adventure path 2B, rescue the kingdom of Generico and its incompetent ruler from Duke Evilguy (and remember my example concerned this situation specifically) then the other players around the table will probably not appreciate the GM and one other player going of on an extended tangent of undead management when the game is supposed to be about looting the fabled Mug of Guffin the Dungeons of Dread.

[Psyren]

...Okay? I'm not sure what how this should be implemented in an actual game or where the fun comes from.

Don't get me wrong, there is probably lots of fun to be had in Undead SimCity, though it's worth pointing out that SimCity multiplayer generally involves multiple cities rather than one person revolutionizing industry with their party members looking on. What I'm doing is explaining why this likely hasn't been tried before, or perhaps more accurately, why it hasn't succeeded before.

For me, the interesting mental exercise is not "how can we turn the printed campaign settings on their head" but rather "why are they the way they are in the first place?"

[BassoonHero]

I think that from an out-of-universe perspective, undead creation is [Evil] for no reason other than the fluff of the assumed default setting. After countless people pointed out that there was no other reason for it, the Libris Mortis invented the concept of "pollution" to justify that fluff.

I'm not criticizing; it's perfectly fine to assert in your setting that undead creation damages the world in a subtle but significant way if you want to reserve it for the villains. It's also fine to acknowledge the default fluff and go in a different direction.

An interpretation I personally like:

- When a person dies, their soul leaves their body; it's gone.
- Animating basic mindless undead is just animating a corpse. There's no binding of souls and no pollution; you're just efficiently animating a nonliving object that's already in a convenient human shape.
- A corpse is the property of its heirs. Unauthorized animation is a grave offense. But pre-selling your corpse is a fine way to pay for funeral services. In fact, the church of the Night Shepherd will happily take care of both parts at no further cost to you or to your heirs.
- A zombie is not a dead person. A zombie without a funerary mask is indecent, an insult to the corpse's former family.
- Some undead, particularly naturally-occurring undead like wights, are dangerous and should be destroyed like rabid animals.
- In contrast to animating a corpse, creating incorporeal undead binds the decedent's soul after death. This is an unspeakable offense, and the destruction of such obscene creatures is the Night Shepherd's highest commandment.

For extra fun, the neighboring kingdom has a completely different religion, thinks that all corporeal undead are a menace to the world and defends their realm with a spectral legion of their greatest warriors.

[Psyren]

I think that from an out-of-universe perspective, undead creation is [Evil] for no reason other than the fluff of the assumed default setting. After countless people pointed out that there was no other reason for it, the Libris Mortis invented the concept of "pollution" to justify that fluff.

I'm not criticizing; it's perfectly fine to assert in your setting that undead creation damages the world in a subtle but significant way if you want to reserve it for the villains. It's also fine to acknowledge the default fluff and go in a different direction.

I agree, but one correction - BoVD is 3.0 and predates Libris Mortis by years, and says the same thing. All LM did was add more detail to the "pollution" concept, it did not actually invent it.

Also, I don't think undead animation being inherently evil "reserves it for the villains." PCs are inherently exceptional, and there are all kinds of evil antiheroes capable of opposing the Big Bad, whereas the good guys are rarely in a position to refuse their help. So long as the players don't use their alignment as an excuse to engage in griefing, it can be an enjoyable source of internal conflict for everyone.

[Segev]

The notion that stone to flesh makes corpses out of statues goes at least back to 1e AD&D, unless my memory fails me.

The interesting question is thus how "good" the statue has to be to get more than a lump of undifferentiated meat.

[Psyren]

The notion that stone to flesh makes corpses out of statues goes at least back to 1e AD&D, unless my memory fails me.

The interesting question is thus how "good" the statue has to be to get more than a lump of undifferentiated meat.

One obstacle for reanimating stone to flesh corpses is that stone to flesh doesn't appear to create bones OR anatomy, which animate dead needs.

[Segev]

One obstacle for reanimating stone to flesh corpses is that stone to flesh doesn't appear to create bones OR anatomy, which animate dead needs.

No, animate dead requires "corpses," which stone to flesh explicitly creates from otherwise-inanimate statues (of stone). It is an oddity, but it is quite explicitly called out in the spell. Now, you can house rule otherwise, and I wouldn't fault you for it. But you can't say it's even an unintended result of the stone to flesh spell.

[Psyren]

No, animate dead requires "corpses," which stone to flesh explicitly creates from otherwise-inanimate statues (of stone). It is an oddity, but it is quite explicitly called out in the spell. Now, you can house rule otherwise, and I wouldn't fault you for it. But you can't say it's even an unintended result of the stone to flesh spell.

You know, before you leap to the condescending/dismissive "you can houserule it" line, you should really reread animate dead.


This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
...
Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

The corpses granted to you by stone to flesh statues don't actually give you either of those things. They are absolutely corpses, I'm not trying to deny that, but animate dead needs more.

[Segev]

You know, before you leap to the condescending/dismissive "you can houserule it" line, you should really reread animate dead.



The corpses granted to you by stone to flesh statues don't actually give you either of those things. They are absolutely corpses, I'm not trying to deny that, but animate dead needs more.

Wasn't being dismissive; was being encouraging.

That said, the word "corpse" and the phrase "undifferentiated slab of meat in the shape of a person" generally are not held to share the same meaning. So you'll need some citation to demonstrate that, when it says it creates a corpse, it expressly does not create one with bones/anatomy.

We don't typically specify that corpses used for autopsies and for medical study are corpses that specifically have "true anatomies;" it's kind-of assumed with the definition of the word.

[Calthropstu]

If this is something you aspire to, simply bite and suck gently on your lover's neck until a circular discoloration occurs. Then you will be a proper neck romancer.
Jokes aside, I agree wholeheartedly that animate dead is quite good compared to others of the animation necromancy spells. An eternal and loyal servant for the cost of a measly 25 gold is quite cheap.

[Psyren]

So you'll need some citation to demonstrate that, when it says it creates a corpse, it expressly does not create one with bones/anatomy.

That's easy - the spell is "stone to flesh" not "stone to flesh and bone" and definitely not "stone to anatomically correct flesh." The burden of proof is therefore on you, not me.

And if you need more than that, we have the text of the spell itself:


The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance.

Bones are quite demonstrably not "a fleshy substance", and neither is muscle, cartilage, tendons, blood, or any other anatomical features. It gives you a solid mass of flesh, nothing more and nothing less.

[RoboEmperor]

That's easy - the spell is "stone to flesh" not "stone to flesh and bone" and definitely not "stone to anatomically correct flesh." The burden of proof is therefore on you, not me.

And if you need more than that, we have the text of the spell itself:



Bones are quite demonstrably not "a fleshy substance", and neither is muscle, cartilage, tendons, blood, or any other anatomical features. It gives you a solid mass of flesh, nothing more and nothing less.

All I can say to your arguments is: this is d&d, not real life.

In d&d acid is an element like fire and water. It's an energy type, and it is most definitely always green bubbling goo. Then we have people like you saying no, acid looks like water in real life not bubbling green goo, so when people show the official example for suggestion spell (forcing the target to take a dip in a pool of acid is a reasonable suggestion even if it kills the target) and correctly claim that it can distort the target's mind to make something obviously hazardous to not look hazardous, people like you start saying "that's OP, in real life acid is clear water not bubbling green goo, so you can't make a creature take a dip in lava with the suggestion spell".

Bringing in a medical textbook and saying muscle, cartilage, tendons, and blood are not flesh, and just a mass of flesh is "technically a corpse", all I can say is the abuse can go both ways.

For example, a teeny tiny piece of "flesh" as per your definittion, is a corpse, and therefore can be used to Create Undead because the target of that spell is a corpse, not a corpse that needs
anatomy like muscle, cartilage, tendons, blood, or any other anatomical features, so I can cut a corpse into 100,000,000 pieces and then get an outsider with at-will create undead and create an army of 100,000,000 undead with that one corpse. Hell I don't even need a corpse, I just need to get a teeny tiny piece of flesh from an outsider with regeneration and I can make an entire army out of that because we've explicitly proven a teeny tiny piece of flesh is technically a corpse.

Also if we're gonna rule lawyer to the extreme, how bout we create a statue of a teeny tiny piece of a Colossal Prismatic Great Wyrm, turn it to flesh, and add a piece of bone from somewhere, like a chicken, and animate that? Because technically that is a corpse with a bone, and the spell doesn't specify the bone has to be from the original corpse. No where does the spell say the bone in the corpse has to be from the same corpse, so a tiny statue turned to flesh with a chicken bone added = corpse animate-able by animate dead, and you get a colossal prismatic great wyrm.

The spell says the corpse needs to be mostly intact. A teeny tiny piece of flesh with a piece of chicken bone inside it is in fact intact. Intact's deifnition is "not damaged or impaired in any way; complete.", and the teeny tiny piece of great wyrm flesh is a corpse by itself, and it is not damaged in anyway, because we didn't hammer it or something. And it's complete, after we added the chicken bone it's a completed corpse. So once we cast the spell on it it morphs into a prismatic great wyrm zombie because magic. Nowhere does it say that this completed corpse isn't a valid target for the spell.

Completed means finished, and we "finished" the corpse by adding the chicken bone. Some might think you need the corpse of an entire dragon for the corpse to be completed, but nope, we've established just a mass of flesh is a corpse, we don't need the bones from the original corpse, so putting a bone inside a piece of flesh turns it into a completed corpse. Nowhere does the spell say that this isn't a completed intact corpse.

My point is, you use d&d's definition of words, not real life. So don't say a mass of flesh is technically a corpse, because it isn't in d&d. A corpse in d&d is a dead body without a soul, and has full anatomy.

[Psyren]

My point is, you use d&d's definition of words, not real life. So don't say a mass of flesh is technically a corpse, because it isn't in d&d. A corpse in d&d is a dead body without a soul, and has full anatomy.

You quoted that whole thing at the wrong guy.

[RoboEmperor]

You quoted that whole thing at the wrong guy.

I was saying stone to flesh creates a corpse with full anatomy. I think that was against your point of view because you were the one arguing that stone to flesh creates corpses without anatomy. Is it not? o_o

[Psyren]

I was saying stone to flesh creates a corpse with full anatomy. I think that was against your point of view because you were the one arguing that stone to flesh creates corpses without anatomy. Is it not? o_o

I understand you now. The problem with your logic is that if there was only one possible definition of "corpse" then they wouldn't need to specify those stipulations in the spell. "The corpse must have bones" and "the corpse must have true anatomy" would be redundant if it was impossible for there to be a corpse lacking those things. The fact that they specify these means that it IS possible, and those corpses are wasted targets for animate dead.

[rel]

Add another data point to the discussion:

My opinion is that the corpse needing bones clause is in the spell animate dead to exclude making skeletons out of creatures without bones. e.g. giant spiders.

Likewise the zombie true anatomy clause is designed to exclude odd creatures like oozes from zombification.

Using stone to flesh on a statue to make a corpse compatible with animate dead seems reasonable.

[RoboEmperor]

I understand you now. The problem with your logic is that if there was only one possible definition of "corpse" then they wouldn't need to specify those stipulations in the spell. "The corpse must have bones" and "the corpse must have true anatomy" would be redundant if it was impossible for there to be a corpse lacking those things. The fact that they specify these means that it IS possible, and those corpses are wasted targets for animate dead.

I'm with Rel here. Corpses without bones are Oozes and insects, not boneless humans.

Anyways I think this is as far as we can go in our discussion. There is no clear RAW whether the resulting corpse from stone to flesh has bones or doesn't has bones, so to each his own. As I mentioned in my long post, claiming masses of flesh without anatomy are corpses can lead to abuses, and to fight those abuses you gotta house rule a separate definition of a corpse for every spell that uses corpses, and it becomes a mess, but whatever, to each his own :)

Dealing with this argument is one of the major reasons I switched from necromancy to planar binding, because the only way of getting powerful corpses consistently without committing acts of murder requires rule lawyering. Every single time I bring up stone to flesh (in this forum and in real life) there's always a ton of people against it.

Honestly though, I think you're the one pushing it when you claim only "boneless corpses are created.", because the spell doesn't say that, and most people think bones are included when they hear the word corpse.

[Calthropstu]

I understand you now. The problem with your logic is that if there was only one possible definition of "corpse" then they wouldn't need to specify those stipulations in the spell. "The corpse must have bones" and "the corpse must have true anatomy" would be redundant if it was impossible for there to be a corpse lacking those things. The fact that they specify these means that it IS possible, and those corpses are wasted targets for animate dead.

Gonna have to disagree here. There are specific instances where creatures don't have bones. Oozes, slimes, plant creatures and other creatures generally state they don't have bones, so their corpses would be ineligible. So I would have to go with "a corpse" as being a standard corpse of whatever the statue represents.

This presents an interesting morality question though. Would using such a corpse that had never lived be ok for a necromancer to use? Would a lawful good diety be able to accept such use of necromancy?

[Psyren]

Gonna have to disagree here. There are specific instances where creatures don't have bones. Oozes, slimes, plant creatures and other creatures generally state they don't have bones, so their corpses would be ineligible.

I'm thoroughly confused :smallconfused: We agree completely on the part in blue, yet you're concluding with disagreement.


I'm with Rel here. Corpses without bones are Oozes and insects, not boneless humans.

Insects do have bones, their bones just happen to be on the outside of their bodies. They also have anatomy. I have never seen an example of animate dead being used on an ooze (or elemental.)

[RoboEmperor]

I'm thoroughly confused :smallconfused: We agree completely on the part in blue, yet you're concluding with disagreement.

He's saying Stone to Flesh creates corpses with bones, and that animate dead specified "boneless corpses" for oozes and such, not Stone to Flesh or that Stone to Flesh creates corpses of normal humans except with all the anatomy removed.

This is all we're arguing on this page of the thread at the moment. That stone to flesh creates corpses with bones. So if someone disagrees with you they're probably saying they disagree with your interpretation of stone to flesh.

[Psyren]

Right, and in response I quoted what stone to flesh does. Bones are not mentioned. The burden of proof is therefore still on you that it creates bones. Here, I'll do it again:


The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)

As I said earlier, bones are definitionally not a "fleshy substance."

Note further that the statue->corpse part is explicitly an example of the "inert fleshy substance" part, as noted by the "Such flesh" and "for example." Beyond creating something that can be considered a corpse, it does not compositionally create anything different for a statue than it would for a boulder.

Lastly, animate dead stipulates specific types of corpses it works with, which, again, suggests that types of corpses that it doesn't work with do exist.

[RoboEmperor]

Lastly, animate dead stipulates specific types of corpses it works with, which, again, suggests that types of corpses that it doesn't work with do exist.

No one is debating this. No one here is saying Oozes can be animated. Insects and other creatures with exoskeletons might be up for debate, but no one is debating this at this time. Everyone agrees there are corpses that can't be animated.


The burden of proof is therefore still on you that it creates bones.

I believe the burden of proof is actually on you. When you say corpse of a human, you think a dead body, not a dead body with all the anatomies like muscle, tendon, cartilage, bones, and blood removed. So when a spell says it creates a corpse, a normal human being will interpret it as a normal corpse, not a super weird corpse with 90% of its contents removed. So I think it's actually on you to prove to us that the corpse mentioned in that spell is in fact a corpse with all of its muscle, tendon, cartilage, bones, and blood removed.

I believe if the intent of the spell was to create a corpse without any anatomy and only the fleshy parts, the author would've explicitly said so because it's such a bizarre thing, a corpse without anatomy, which is why I believe it is our opinion that you are the one who is rule-lawyering very hard here, not us, and your interpretation is the skeptical one.

[Psyren]

No one is debating this. No one here is saying Oozes can be animated. Insects and other creatures with exoskeletons might be up for debate, but no one is debating this at this time. Everyone agrees there are corpses that can't be animated.

Great, we agree here.



I believe the burden of proof is actually on you. When you say corpse of a human, you think a dead body, not a dead body with all the anatomies like muscle, tendon, cartilage, bones, and blood removed. So when a spell says it creates a corpse, a normal human being will interpret it as a normal corpse, not a super weird corpse with 90% of its contents removed. So I think it's actually on you to prove to us that the corpse mentioned in that spell is in fact a corpse with all of its muscle, tendon, cartilage, bones, and blood removed.

Bold mine; the spell doesn't say anything about making "the corpse of a human." Just "corpse." So no, it's still on you.

Nothing in the spell says it creates anything other than flesh. Not in the spell's name, not in its table description, and not in its text. Even when you do get a corpse from it, it's still flesh, flesh, flesh. And since we just agreed above that not all corpses are legal for animate dead, the logical conclusion is that the corpse you get from F2S is illegal for AD, unless you can find something that explicitly states it is, or a published example of animate dead being used successfully on statue-blobs.