[3.5] Build A Survivor

[Thurbane]

Help me build a theoretical character.

This character, starting at first level, wakes up one day with no memories of who he is or where he came from. His only possession is a simple weapon of you choice (preferably something free, like a sling, club or quarterstaff).

This character is a mundane: no casting, psionics, artificer, incarnum, binding, invocations, shadow magic, most SLAs, truespeech or anything else resembling "magic". Martial Adepts with Su powers are an exception to this rule. Using UMD once you have access to gear is also acceptable. (Su) class features that do not emulate casting are acceptable, on a case by case basis.

The point of the challenge is not to try to find a loophole in these restrictions ("oh, you forgot to specifically ban XYZ pseudo-casting lol, just make him one of those").

I'm looking for 3E only, no Pathfinder please.

You can chose any LA +0 or LA+1 race with no RHD, and any class within the above guidelines.

You can chose two flaws, if you feel it will help the character survive.

Ability scores are 32 point buy.

This character needs to be able to survive level appropriate challenges by himself. He can acquire gear later on with treasure he finds or otherwise acquires.

He must be an active adventurer, and not simply set up a farm and use the proceeds to buy gear, for instance.

Now, I'm sure someone will find some way to subvert this, but hopefully most people can keep within the spirit of the challenge.

This is inspired by a comic I remember reading many years ago where a barbarian finds himself in a junkyard with only a large monkey wrench to defend himself from various monsters/mutants/aliens.

Cheers - T

[AnimeTheCat]

So, do classes that get delayed spellcasting get disqualified? What if the spellcasting is traded away through an ACF? Can you start as a martial adept class? Wild shape is a (su) ability, is it disqualified?

[Calthropstu]

Play a knight and name him Vivor. Then he shall be Sir Vivor. Hope this helps.

[King of Nowhere]

A monk seem the best suited to this. that, or a rogue.

[Jopustopin]

Web Enhancement Kobold Crusader
Feat: Dragon Tail (Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail attack routine)
1st level Stance: Martial Spirit (Heals 2 points of damage on each hit)

Shouldn't need any gear at all and be able to out sustain most fights.

Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

[Thurbane]

So, do classes that get delayed spellcasting get disqualified? What if the spellcasting is traded away through an ACF? Can you start as a martial adept class? Wild shape is a (su) ability, is it disqualified?

- No casting, delayed or otherwise.
- Trading away casting for ACFs is fine (CW or CC paladin/Ranger variants, for instance).
- You can start as a martial Adept.
- Wild shape is acceptable, so long as it isn't accompanied by casting.


Play a knight and name him Vivor. Then he shall be Sir Vivor. Hope this helps.


http://savage.games/data/avatars/m/11/11101.jpg?1489268456


A monk seem the best suited to this. that, or a rogue.

They would both fit the theme. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Whisper Gnome
Template: Dark Creature
Class: Rogue 1
Simple Weapon: Dagger (it's not free, but in all likelihood it's the single most commonly useful weapon in the game)

Attributes (lvl 1, 32 pb): Str 6/Dex 18/Con 16/Int 16/Wis 14/Cha 6

AC: 13 (Base 10+Dex 4+Size 1-Vulnerable 1-Aggressive 1)
HP: 9
Initiative: +10
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 70 ft

Feats:
HD 1: Darkstalker
Flaw (Pathetic Charisma): Weapon Finesse
Flaw (Vulnerable): Improved Initiative

Traits:
Aggressive
Nightsighted

Skills:
Balance 4 (+8)
Climb 4 (+2)
Jump 4 (+6)
Hide 4 (+24)
Listen 4 (+8)
Move Silently 4 (+18)
Search 4 (+6)
Spot 4 (+8)
Swim 4 (+2)
Tumble 4 (+8)
Use Magic Device 4 (+2)

You've got no armor, no gear, and no muscle. What you do have, though, is nigh-unbeatable stealth for your level, decent athletic ability, and a dagger. Move under cover of night and shadow, and sleep during the day somewhere where you won't be found easily. Sneak up on things while they're sleeping and slice their throat: you'll deal 3d6-2 damage (average 8.5), and if they're still not dying/dead from the damage, they'll have to make a DC 18 Fort save or die. If they succeed, they're probably awake now, and that was your surprise round, but who cares? You have about 90% chance of beating an average Dex person on initiative, and once you do, disappear into the shadows once more and they'll never find you. And all of this just gets better and better as you level up.

[Goaty14]

Naturally, I would apply the Feral template to whatever LA 0 creature we want; but I should assume that it is wildly too low for it's LA. Troll-Blooded from Dragon #319 also works.

But assuming that we don't do either; yeah, the best choice would be crusader.

EDIT: My problem is less of killing things and doing damage, and more of "making it past 1st level"

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, you basically need to survive your first encounter with an armed guy; then you can take their stuff, and within one adventure you're a normally-equipped level 1 dude.

Anyway, if you want an ultimate low-level survivor, be a Gheden (Dragon 313) with Troll Blooded (Dragon 319). Regeneration 1 from the feat and immunity to nonlethal damage from the template mean you don't take damage from anything but acid and fire. Take some levels in Crusader or something for added "just don't die."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) (Heart aspect), Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (in that order), Crusader 1

Two flaws: Bravado (can't benefit from Dodge bonuses to AC, can't use the withdraw action) and Love of Nature (must make a DC 12 Will save or lose your action when attempting to attack a plant, vermin, or animal).

Three feats: Entangling Exhalation, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power

Str > Con > Dex > Wis > Int > Cha, total ability score adjustments are +6 Str, -2 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha.

Strategy: Breathe an entangling breath attack as often as possible, keep the maximum number of opponents debuffed and taking damage every round. Use Martial Spirit and Stone Power, and Crusader Strike when needed/available to keep yourself up.

The natural armor and DR/Adamantine should be more than enough until you can get some armor/shield. You'll be able to do plenty of damage with just your breath attack, Stone Power gives you temporary hp even if you don't land the attack.

You'll have a 30 ft. land speed, 30 ft. swim, and 15 ft. burrow. Get the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) and those are 40 and 20 instead. Dragonborn gets rid of all the other race of water and orc traits, namely the light sensitivity, and gaining Mineral Warrior afterward lets you keep everything it gives you.

[Zaq]

Race: Whisper Gnome
Template: Dark Creature
Class: Rogue 1
Simple Weapon: Dagger (it's not free, but in all likelihood it's the single most commonly useful weapon in the game)

Attributes (lvl 1, 32 pb): Str 6/Dex 18/Con 16/Int 16/Wis 14/Cha 6

AC: 13 (Base 10+Dex 4+Size 1-Vulnerable 1-Aggressive 1)
HP: 9
Initiative: +10
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 70 ft

Feats:
HD 1: Darkstalker
Flaw (Pathetic Charisma): Weapon Finesse
Flaw (Vulnerable): Improved Initiative

Traits:
Aggressive
Nightsighted

Skills:
Balance 4 (+8)
Climb 4 (+2)
Jump 4 (+6)
Hide 4 (+24)
Listen 4 (+8)
Move Silently 4 (+18)
Search 4 (+6)
Spot 4 (+8)
Swim 4 (+2)
Tumble 4 (+8)
Use Magic Device 4 (+2)

You've got no armor, no gear, and no muscle. What you do have, though, is nigh-unbeatable stealth for your level, decent athletic ability, and a dagger. Move under cover of night and shadow, and sleep during the day somewhere where you won't be found easily. Sneak up on things while they're sleeping and slice their throat: you'll deal 3d6-2 damage (average 8.5), and if they're still not dying/dead from the damage, they'll have to make a DC 18 Fort save or die. If they succeed, they're probably awake now, and that was your surprise round, but who cares? You have about 90% chance of beating an average Dex person on initiative, and once you do, disappear into the shadows once more and they'll never find you. And all of this just gets better and better as you level up.

Unfortunately, that build is illegal as presented: Weapon Finesse, for reasons I will never comprehend, requires BAB +1.

[AvatarVecna]

Unfortunately, that build is illegal as presented: Weapon Finesse, for reasons I will never comprehend, requires BAB +1.

Huh. I mean, I guess the tactics presented don't actually require a successful attack roll, so losing it doesn't hurt too much until later when you fight things head on, but...yeah, I always forget that stupid prereq, urgh.

[Elkad]

Web Enhancement Kobold Crusader
Feat: Dragon Tail (Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail attack routine)
1st level Stance: Martial Spirit (Heals 2 points of damage on each hit)...

I'd take Poison Dusk Lizardfolk over Kobold. You lose the tail attack, but you gain (relative to Kobold).
+4str, +4con, +2NA, and bonuses to hide, jump, balance, and swim (all handy at low levels anyway)
Feat:Multi-Attack
I'd still open with Crusader for Martial Spirit / Steely Resolve tanking.
Barb for pounce immediately after?

And is there a way to get Rake at low level?

[Telonius]

This is inspired by a comic I remember reading many years ago where a barbarian finds himself in a junkyard with only a large monkey wrench to defend himself from various monsters/mutants/aliens.

Cheers - T

For that particular character, I'm thinking something like Wilderness Rogue1, then go into a Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher build. (Unfortunately you'd have to be a pretty high-level Ranger to get the preferred animal companion - an ape named Wrench).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Not to get around the restrictions, but is meldshaping acceptable? I'm specifically asking because of Therapeutic Mantle and Astral Vambraces, which would be my choice of making a hard-to-kill low-level character (together with crusader 1). If they're not acceptable, there are other ways to get DR and/or additional healing using the free LA (for example, quasilycanthrope).

For a Halloween campaign I once made a monk 1/incarnate 1/crusader 1, based on the build in my signature, only squashed down to three levels. It's a pretty tough package against melee enemies (I was expecting to get hit by overwhelming numbers of wolves and zombies), and it's got hilariously low AC (5-6 with Vulnerable and Aggressive, and no ability to use armour).

[JyP]

well, a warforged commoner 1 is able to enter Survivor prestige class (from Savage Species) :smallwink:

[Twurps]

I'm going to stray a bit from the purely 'mundane' feeling but as wildshape is allowed, I'd think this would be OK too:

Race: Changeling (minor shapechange, bonusses to bluff and disguise)
Template: See below
lvl1: Rogue, with the substitution lvl from RoE (lose trapfinding, 10skillpoints per lvl, a variety of bonusses to a variety of social skills.)
Feat: See below. The build could really use quick draw, but that again requires BAB+1, aaagh.

The above doesn't have the survivability of the earlier mentioned builds, but can stand up very well in social encounters. so stick that I guess?
however: my second suggestion was going to be the cheesy one. I'm supprised nobody brought up Mulhorandi Divine Minion. So: for template: take that, fast-wild shape as an 11th level druid and combat should be settled for a couple of levels too.

[Nifft]

How long is he expected to survive alone?

Is he unwilling to join a group, or just far from help?


Scout may be pretty good at surviving, thanks to hit-and-run tactics being rewarded, and you get a skill list that promotes wilderness survival, too.

[Amphetryon]

Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body seems well-suited to this, unless the Adamantine Body Feat constitutes 'wealth' beyond intended parameters of the contest.

[Thurbane]

Not to get around the restrictions, but is meldshaping acceptable? .

I knew there would be one I forgot to put in the list. No, no meldshpaing, sorry.

Added to the OP.


How long is he expected to survive alone?

Is he unwilling to join a group, or just far from help?

Lets say a year, just for the heckuvit.

Far from help - assume most (all?) intelligent beings in the area are hostile.

[Hecuba]

This character is a mundane: no casting, psionics, artificer, incarnum, binding, invocations, shadow magic, truespeech or anything else resembling "magic". Martial Adepts with Su powers are an exception to this rule. Using UMD once you have access to gear is also acceptable. (Su) class features that do not emulate casting are acceptable, on a case by case basis.

Can I take something that would normally be a spellcasting class (classes?) if I swear off any spell-casting?

Edit: If so, just go for a luck reroll character. Start with Factotum 1 for skills at first level, then dip Cloistered Cleric 1 to take Luck Domain, Pride Domain, and Knowledge devotion. Push Factotum up until you can enter Fortune's Friend at 5. Cap it for more rolls and luck feats. Dip Chameleon for 2 levels for the floating feat, which allows you to pick among the more situational luck feats once a day. Hop into Uncanny trickster to eek a couple extra levels worth of stuff out of Fortune's friend after the cap. That should put you at 15. Then, monk or something I guess.

Edit2: Should get you something like 16 re-rolls at level 15. Your damage will be largely limited to what you can manage with Knowledged devotion, but killing you should be quite difficult for anything that can't just say "You die, no save, no roll."

[Thurbane]

Can I take something that would normally be a spellcasting class (classes?) if I swear off any spell-casting?

Edit: If so, just go for a luck reroll character. Start with Factotum 1 for skills at first level, then dip Cloistered Cleric 1 to take Luck Domain, Pride Domain, and Knowledge devotion. Push Factotum up until you can enter Fortune's Friend at 5. Cap it for more rolls and luck feats. Dip Chameleon for 2 levels for the floating feat, which allows you to pick among the more situational luck feats once a day. Hop into Uncanny trickster to eek a couple extra levels worth of stuff out of Fortune's friend after the cap. That should put you at 15. Then, monk or something I guess.

Edit2: Should get you something like 16 re-rolls at level 15. Your damage will be largely limited to what you can manage with Knowledged devotion, but killing you should be quite difficult for anything that can't just say "You die, no save, no roll."

I'd only allow this if you were a Karsite, and actually unable to cast spells. Karsite's are LA +2, however.

[Demidos]

The ghost racial class from savage species would probably be quite helpful at surviving low levels, if only the first level is taken for (basically) LA +1. I don't know if you'd allow that in your game.

[Thurbane]

The ghost racial class from savage species would probably be quite helpful at surviving low levels, if only the first level is taken for (basically) LA +1. I don't know if you'd allow that in your game.

Bonus points for originality, but no, that would never fly at my table.

[Nifft]

It sounds like Wild Shape is approved, but spells aren't.

So a Muggle Wildshape Ranger > Master of Many Forms might be the most survivable character.

At low levels, you're a Ranger, which is pretty great for low levels. And then at high levels, you're a Dragon / Plant / Aberration / Elemental / etc.

Build might go something like...

Level 1 -- Ranger 1
* L1 Feat: Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)
+ R1 Bonus Feat: Track
+ Fast Movement +10 ft. (Wildshape ACF)
+ Favored Enemy: ___
+ Wild Empathy

Level 2 -- Ranger 2
+ Combat Style (Wildshape ACF)

Level 3 -- Ranger 3
* L3 Feat: Alertness
+ R3 Bonus Feat: Endurance

Level 4 -- Ranger 4
* L4 Stat: +1 ___
+ Animal Companion -> Spiritual Guide (passive skill bonus; cast commune with nature 1/day; CChamp, p.50) or Solitary Hunting (gain Favored Enemy bonus on attack rolls; Dr #347, p.91) -- the latter if casting commune with nature would make the feature to caster-ish
+ Spellcasting -> R4 Bonus Feat: ___ (CChamp, p.50)

Level 5 -- Ranger 5
+ Favored Enemy: ___
+ Wildshape (Small, Medium) 1/day

Level 6 -- Master of Many Forms 1
* L6 Feat: ___


For a race or template, I dunno... this character shouldn't spend much time in his own skin after level 6 or so. Do templates carry over into Wildshape? If so, maybe Dark Creature, or Mineral Warrior.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Do templates carry over into Wildshape?
Generally, not as template, but you can pick up benefits that aren't replaced, like a primordial half-giant's at-will invisibility.

[Anthrowhale]

For a race or template, I dunno...

Going for stealth as per AvatarVecna would greatly help for L1-4 and be significantly beneficial afterwards.

[AvatarVecna]

Going for stealth as per AvatarVecna would greatly help for L1-4 and be significantly beneficial afterwards.

Indeed. Throwing on Dark Whisper Gnome, without spending any skill ranks, is HiPS in Darkness, land Speed +10ft, darkvision, Dex +2, Hide +16, and Move Silently +10. It makes you pretty stealthy for a low-level character even if you don't have a single rank in it (although you'll likely wanna pick up Darkstalker if you go this route).

[Hecuba]

I'd only allow this if you were a Karsite, and actually unable to cast spells. Karsite's are LA +2, however.. Will you take a 1 level dip in Forsaker before any casting class?

[xyamius]

if multiclass xp penalty doesn't apply do monk and go into crusader/warblade/sordsage for maneuvers so no casting there. The crusaders stances will heal while the others will keep you able to do extra damage. Go into master of 9 as a prc for 5 levels and you shouldn't have any issues surviving. If xp penalties apply do crusader/monk and it should keep you without a problem alive.

Use the unarmed strikes to do damage, movement and a/c to get position and the crusaders martial spirit to heal with. The initiator level of the crusader grows as you take monk levels since 1/2 your non crusader levels stack for that giving you access to better stances and maneuvers.

Go human at level 1 and take sacred vow and vow of poverty also since you don't plan on having any equipment. It will turn you into a survivor that wanders the world with nothing on you but clothes and being able to crush all those that attack you and you would have a stupid level a/c to go with it and good damage out put with multiple attacks.

Go crusader first and then go monk since you can't go the other way and it would require you to be lawful good.

If you are going to be fighting a bunch of evil take the feat touch of golden ice at level 3 so every time you hit with your fists they have to make a fort save or lose dexterity points which can be dropped to 0 this way

forgot to put stat build into it.

Race: Human/ Crusader level 1(will go monk level 2+)/ Alignment: Lawful good

Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Chr: 14

HP: 12, AC: 22 ( 10 base, +2 dex, +2 natural armor, +2 deflection bonus, +6 exalted bonus)
Saves: Fort: 4, Ref: 2, Will: 2
BAB: +1
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, flaw feat: Vow of non violence, free exalted feat: Vow of Peace
Flaw: Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks)

Skill points at start : 24
Class Skills: Balance, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge History, Knowledge Religion, Martial Lore, Ride.
Class abilities: Steely Resolve(5), Furious Counter Strike

Skill Ranks: Balance: 2, Diplomacy 4, Jump 2, Knowledge History 2, Knowledge Religion 3, Martial lore 2, Ride 1, Survival 2, Search 2, Profession: Farming 1, Professions Fisherman 1, Rope use 2

Stance: Martial Spirit
Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike,Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Douse the flames.

Weapons: Unarmed Strike +2 to hit, 1d3 +1 dmg (crit 20 x2)(provokes attacks of opportunity) (damage is non-lethal)
Armor : none
Equipment: none
Clothing: Peasants

Concept wandering doer of good to help those in need and spread the word of (insert lawful good deity) Uses diplomacy to resolve conflicts and lives off the land and kindness of others. Has unsteady hands due to the stress they went through with their crusader unit's assault on a small town and still can't get over that his unit was killing peasants and towns folks as they fled. Has given up all their possessions and has taken to the road in the hopes of if they do enough good they will save their soul from damnation.

RP tips: You will have to get by on making deals with others for passage, food, shelter and such and your pc will have no issues getting their hands dirty, suggest leveling diplomacy and adding a profession or craft skill at each level.

Combat tips: Don't attack first only defend yourself, do only non-lethal damage to your opponents and leave them after attempting to convert them from their evil ways.

[Demidos]

Okay, if no ghost....

Lesser Mechanatrix with Shape soulmeld Lightning gauntlets and the Mineral Warrior template. High DR, and you can heal yourself infinitely. After that it matters less what your class itself gives you, though maybe some sort of druid for the nice animal companion or a cleric to make yourself gish-y? The feat that gives you an animal companion or a familiar might be useful to get a scout/ally.

Generally spells are good since they give you options, and survival is probably better with more options than attack or run away. That being said you do take penalties to mental scores, so perhaps a totemist? The stats line up and it gives you damage to go with your nice defense, although I'm not positive on whether you save a feat on the lightning gauntlets or if that's incarnate only. Crusader also uses your stats fairly well, and makes you even harder to kill, way harder than anything your level should be able to hit.

Note the mineral warrior also gives you a burrow speed, so you can make yourself a safe-ish lair.

So in summary...
Mineral Warrior Lesser Mechanatrix into Totemist/Crusader? Seems legit for survivability. Make sure you get yourself a companion/familiar/soulspark or can somehow protect yourself while you sleep and you should be golden.

[Nifft]

Okay, if no ghost....

Lesser Mechanatrix with Shape soulmeld

Soulmelds are also prohibited.

[Soranar]

Hum, not sure how best to attack this challenge. The lower levels are definitely tough (level 1-3) but the higher levels become problematic too (level 15+)

Due to the way power scales for fighter types (linear vs quadratic) I think I would go for a ranger build with a few ACF
since wildshape gives you some options you shouldn't normally have

first, champion of the wild (since casting is not allowed) for bonus feats, the feats are very limited since I traded away the fighting style but I'll try to make the most of it
wildshape ranger (for versatility and eventually power)
trap expert (eats 2 skillpoints per level but now you have a way to deal with traps)
urban companion (gain a familiar with 3/4 your health, lose animal companion)

Race: warforged (immunities, you never sleep, you don't need WIS or CHA)
Template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (mind aspect since flight is covered by wildshape and breath attack won't work in wildshape)

STATS (32 pts)

STR 14 (for power attack and early levels without wildshape)
DEX 6 (dump stat)
CON 22 (you're mostly by yourself, you really need all the hitpoints you can get)
INT 16 (same as above, you need all the skillpoints you can get)
WIS 6 (dump stat)
CHA 6 (dump stat)

Level 1-3

Max out craft (trapmaking) , you will need all the advantages possible to survive at this point. Your AC is terrible but your hitpoints are decent.

Level 4

You get your familiar (I would pick a hawk since it's a great scout)

Level 5

Wildshape comes on, you have a specialized form for each type of encounter (croc for water grappling, dinosaur for pouncing attacks)

Level 6+ Become a Master of many forms and take levels in warshaper for the extra reach and immunities

Feat combos

sacred vow + vow of poverty (works in any form, free defenses at early levels)
education + knowledge devotion (gives a bonus with any type of attack)
mage slayer+ pierce magical protection (you get blind fight for free from champion of the wild)

take flaws to get vow of poverty early

The wildshape also lets you heal every time you use it

[Guizonde]

if i may, for a true survivor build, i'd go halfling necropolitan with some kind of rogue and ranger multiclass. the stealth alone is worth gold, but the kicker would be the fact that you're only dependant on two stats: dex and cha. a moderate int gives you crazy skill points to be sunk into survival, acrobatics, stealth (hide and move silently) and necropolitans gain bonuses to those. add the necropolitan template's bonuses and immunities, and you're a long way already into becoming self-reliant.

now of course, i don't know how to get rid of the ranger's pesky animal companion in dnd, or his spells, but that was the basic idea behind my gestalt character (swap rogue out for sorceror and gain access to a negative energy spell and that character using only wits and clever thinking can solo any challenge by bypassing it). that character was meant to be self-reliant, and in pf i managed it in gestalt. in a multi-class, i'm still working out the kinks. as done, she punched 3 levels above her weight in combat alone, and level one could routinely pull off dc 25 acrobatics and stealth checks. it's not really optimized per se, but it was a hell of a curve ball for dm's to handle. most dm's are aware of the game-breaker codzilla or omnipotent wizard, hell, even cheddar-infused barbarian builds, but a lowly halfling that is more slippery than a tub of vaseline using nothing more than a grappling hook and a shortsword and properly paranoid to boot?

all that because as a necropolitan she pings hard to detect undead, and even though she's "good", most people break out the torches and pitchforks and ask questions later. i really want to find a table that'll allow her, but dm's are a bit leery of her, just because she's different.

[Thurbane]

Lots of good ideas coming through here. :smallsmile:

[emeraldstreak]

Lots of good ideas coming through here. :smallsmile:

Tbh the +1 LA kind of makes it easy.

[WeaselGuy]

RACE - Muckdweller (-6 STR, +6 DEX, -2 WIS, -2 CHA) LA +0, Serpent Kingdoms

TEMPLATE - Dark (Hide in Plain Sight, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently), LA +1, Tome of Magic

CLASS - Rogue 3/Hit & Run Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Spell-less Variant (Champions of Valor) Fangshields Ranger 13

ABILITY SCORES - STR: 12 (6), DEX: 12 (18), CON: 16, INT: 14, WIS: 12 (10), CHA: 12 (10)

FEATS - Flaws: Non-Combative (-1 to Melee Attacks) - Sacred Vow, Vulnerable (-1 to AC) - Vow of Poverty, 1(Racial) - Weapon Finesse, 1 - Darkstalker, 3 - Craven, 6 - Ability Focus (Squirt), 8(Ranger) - Improved Natural Attack (Bite), 9 - Underfoot Combat, 12 - Confound the Big Folk, (Ranger) Weapon Focus (Bite), 15 - , 17(Ranger) - Greater Weapon Focus (Bite), 18 -

TACTICS - In a nutshell, little Gila-zilla here spends most of his day hiding in the mud, thanks to his ridiculous +24 to hide (+8 size, +8 template, +4 skill rank, +4 DEX Bonus) alongside his Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker, making him virtually undetectable. If threatened (or hungry, I guess), he can use his Squirt ability to blind an opponent (DC 14 Reflex Save, going up to 16 at level 6, and scaling higher based on his DEX bonus) and then Sneak Attack them with his Bite Attack. Thanks to his racial Weapon Finesse, he uses his DEX bonus as an attack modifier, and Hit & Run Tactics gets to add that to his damage output as well. At higher levels, Craven adds much needed damage to his Sneak Attacks, and Fangshield Ranger allows him to focus on his Bite Attacks, as well as picking up a valuable animal companion (I really want to suggest a Hawk, since as a small animal and Gila-zilla being tiny, he could ride it as a mount! Don't know what he'd do as a VoP sneak-attacker on a flying mount, but it'd be hilarious to see.) and some SLA's (which he may or may not be able to use, due to his WIS Modifier). I legit don't know what feats to take at 15 and 18 (maybe some ToB feats? Toughness and Improved Toughness?), and I really don't feel like digging my books out of storage to look up Exalted feats for VoP, but I'm sure there are some fun things that can happen here. As it stands though, there should be enough here to keep this guy relevant, both solo and in a group.

[Thurbane]

Tbh the +1 LA kind of makes it easy.

Hmmm, good point. Maybe I should have made it LA +0 only...

[Twurps]

I wanted to expand on the whole ‘stealth’ concept with some shadow pounce, Unfortunately, the best classes that offer this also have spellcasting (i.e. Telflammar shadowlord). So I came up with a great concept to play one day, but had to modify it quite a bit to fit the parameters of this contest.

Race: Changeling (minor shapechange, bonusses to bluff and disguise)
Template: Dark creature
Flaw1: Darkstalker
Flaw 2: Education
Int>dex>con>Str>Cha>Wis
lvl1: Rogue, with the substitution lvl from RoE (lose trapfinding, 10skillpoints per lvl, a variety of bonusses to a variety of social skills.) sneak attack 1d6. lvl 1 feat: Stealthy
Lvl2: Monk (cobra strike fighting style (UA p52), monk feat: dodge
Lvl3: Monk (cobra strike fighting style (UA p52) Invisible fist ACF ACF(EoE p21) monk feat: mobility Lvl 3 feat: mounted combat
Lvl 4: Rogue, evasion.
Lvl 5: (unarmed) swordsage: discipline focus: unarmed strike, stance: undecided, maneuvers: shadow jaunt, cloak of deception, moment of perfect mind, 3 undecided

At this point, the build needs 2 more levels in any class before entering telflammar shadowlord for shadow pounce and death attacks. All it needs is leap attack as a lvl 6 feat, and the shadow walker template instead of Dark creature . Shadow walker has a lot of spell-like abilities, and TFSL has casting, so both are out. Therefore we’ll finish with:

Lvl6 to 10: Crinti shadow marauder: shadow ride, sudden strike +2d6, shadow walk, shadow pounce. Crappy bonus feat. lvl6 feat: Knowlegde devotion Lvl 9 feat: Carmendine monk.
Finish the build of with more swordsage, or if multiclass penalties apply, some prc, but with an extra dip in swordsage at lvl12 for additional shadowhand maneuvers and assassin’s stance
Lvl12 feat: Craven.
With 10 skillpoints per rogue level (x4 at lvl1), high int and good skillpoints from swordsage as well, maxing out most stealth and social skills should be easy enough from early on. In addition: add the following skill tricks (All CS, p83): lvl 2: assume quirk, lvl4: second impression, lvl 6: social recovery. these tricks enhance your social capabilities while in disguise. Additional skillpoints can go into knowledge skills to power your knowledge devotion, aided by your lvl8 skill trick: collector of stories.
At lvl9, Wis becomes a complete dumpstat as monk AC bonus gets keyed to Int. I’d have liked to pick this one up earlier obviously, but that would either require levels in fighter or giving up on the ‘education-knowledge devotion’ combo, which is a personal favorite of mine, so I left it in.

Tactics:
Lvl1 is tricky as always: use your social skills and disguise where possible to gather intel and for safe travel/downtime. Use your stealth to pick your fights on your own terms and make a clean getaway. From level 2: Monk provides all good saves, flurry for extra attacks and at lvl 3, invisibility to trigger sneak attack more easily or aid your getaway further. At lvl5, swordsage ads a second round of invisibility with cloak of deception. This is greater invisibility so you can full attack flurry with sneak attack damage on all attacks. Moment of perfect mind shores our will-save, as wis is a dump-stat. At lvl 10, we get shadow pounce, for more invisible-full-sneak attack fun. At lvl 12, we can add another teleport maneuver from swordsage to this mix.
Damage output meanwhile has been steadily increasing as well, with knowledge devotion at lvl 6, craven at lvl 12, and a total of 5d6 sneak attack/sudden strike damage at lvl12 (including 2d6 from assassins stance)

[emeraldstreak]

Hmmm, good point. Maybe I should have made it LA +0 only...

Well, +1 does open strong choices. Many were mentioned already, I believe Quasilycanthrope with its 10 DR wasn't.

For +0, an incarnate Warforged can have some of those templates (ie Dark) but not all.

However, my preferred +0 would be a Shifter Undying Way Monk. With two Flaws that's just enough to grab Troll-Blooded and Shifter Stamina, making him immune to damage (other than fire/acid) while shifting.

[WeaselGuy]

I did a little more work, and made an update to Gilazilla.

RACE - Muckdweller (-6 STR, +6 DEX, -2 WIS, -2 CHA) LA +0, Serpent Kingdoms

CLASS - Rogue 3/Hit & Run (Drow of the Underdark) Sneak Attack (Unearthed Arcana) Fighter 1/Master of the Wild (Complete Champion) Fangshields (Champions of Valor) Ranger 11/Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) 5

ABILITY SCORES - STR: 12 (6), DEX: 12 (18), CON: 16, INT: 14, WIS: 12 (10), CHA: 12 (10)

FEATS - 1: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse; 3: Craven; 6: Dodge; 8: Combat Expertise; 9: Mobility; 12: Underfoot Combat, Improved Trip; 15: Confound the Big Folk, Eyes in the Back of Your Head; 18: Giantbane

TACTICS - Very similar to before, Gilazilla spends his first few levels hiding in the mud (not quite as high of a hide modifier anymore, since dropping the Dark Template) and using Squirt to set up a Blinded Sneak Attack combo. Make use of Hit & Run tactics from Fighter at level 2 to apply damage based on dexterity and higher initiative rolls, along with more sneak attack dice, followed up with 2 more levels of Rogue for Evasion and Penetrating Strike. Move right in to 11 levels of Master of the Wild Fangshields Ranger to gain a few extra feats at the cost of spellcasting, along with an animal companion for flanking setups and improved Natural Attacks. We use Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk to attack from within our opponent's square, and Giantbane (primarily Climb Aboard) to be even peskier. Dread Commando finishes the build up with some Sudden Strike dice and the option to wear some medium armor, if you feel so inclined.

This differs from before, in that it's a more cohesive concept, and gets rid of both the Template and the VoP (and other Exalted-ness). This is more the kind of character that I would play, making use of system mastery and tactics in lieu of spellpower to accomplish the mission. Plus you're a bipedal gila monster spitting in people's eyes and biting them in the knee caps. And maybe still flying around on the back of an Eagle, throwing 12" long javelins into your opponent's squishy bits. For reasons.

[Soranar]

I always wanted to make a Martial Rogue and I finally found a decent build for one.

Race: Human (you need all the skillpoints you can get)
Template: Necropolitan (fixes your hitpoints , gives you immunities and lets you ignore sleep)

ACF
Sneak attack Fighter
Hit and run tactics
Martial rogue
Penetrating strike

STATs (32 pts)

STR 16 (Main)
DEX 16
CON - (dump)
INT 16
WIS 8 (dump)
CHA 8 (dump)

Feats

Level 1 Rogue Wild Cohort, Bonus feat: Mounted Combat, Bonus human feat: Ride-by attack
Level 2 Fighter (sneak attack +1d6)
Level 3 Rogue Martial Study (clinging shadow strike) Bonus Feat: Martial Stance (Island of blades)
Level 5 Spirited Charge
Level 6 Craven


Combo explanation

When you charge atop your wild cohort (a heavy horse) you automatically flank what you're fighting (due to Island of blades + lance is a reach weapon) which triggers sneak attack and craven (which is multiplied on a charge since craven is a static bonus)

And since you're flanking whatever you're charging, you deal half sneak attack damage to creatures immune to sneak attack (penetrating strike) making this almost as powerful as power attack without losing BAB to do so

The wild cohort gives you a potent bodyguard to survive the early levels and the fighter dip gives you the extra oomph and the lance proficiency to deal with the rest.

Considering all your skillpoints, it's probably not a bad idea to invest into education through a flaw and take knowledge devotion down the road. The rogue chassis and the special abilities are good enough to stick with rogue IMO

You could also take power attack down the road and further emphasize your charge damage with a wand of rhino's rush. Your horse can eventually fly by using magic items (some go on their hooves) and you can take 10 on key skills with the rogue special ability.

In short, your damage is pretty good. You have tons of skillpoints, a fairly decent mount and a way to deal with every encounter.

[Guizonde]

I always wanted to make a Martial Rogue and I finally found a decent build for one.

Race: Human (you need all the skillpoints you can get)
Template: Necropolitan (fixes your hitpoints , gives you immunities and lets you ignore sleep)

STATs (32 pts)

STR 16 (Main)
DEX 16
CON - (dump)
INT 16
WIS 8 (dump)
CHA 8 (dump)



you sure necropolitans fix their hp on d12 and not gain the benefit from a high charisma? i may not be the crunchiest optimizer this side of a calculator but it seemed to me that swapping out con with cha netted you bonus hp (and other resistances unique to undead counters).

the d12 i agree with, but my necropolitan build used a halfling for the combo because as i read it, it fit my halfling's original stats to a tee. plus, anything that uses charisma to "maintain its will to live through sheer force of personality" would seem to me to be able to talk its way out of any problem.

[ExLibrisMortis]

you sure necropolitans fix their hp on d12 and not gain the benefit from a high charisma? i may not be the crunchiest optimizer this side of a calculator but it seemed to me that swapping out con with cha netted you bonus hp (and other resistances unique to undead counters).
In 3.5, undead use Charisma for Concentration, but do not gain bonus hit points from Charisma.
In PF, undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for hit points, Fortitude saves, and special abilities, but only gain a d8 hit die. Concentration uses your casting stat.

[Thurbane]

Concentration uses your casting stat.

Almost - in 3.5, Undead always use Cha as their casting stat for Concentration checks:


Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

They also use Cha in place of any Con based DC attack (poison etc.).


Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature's will against an opponent: gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, or energy drain. The creature's Charisima modifier also determines the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has (no matter what form they take).
Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead creatures have no Constitution score, so any poison attacks they have would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

And in an obscure source, they also use Cha to determine Rage duration:


Barbarian: There are not many barbarians among the undead, but gangs of barbarian ghouls and ghasts are used as shock troops by the more powerful lords of Xaphan. A raging undead barbarian does not gain an increase in Constitution (or anything dependent upon Constitution such as hit points or Fortitude saves) but uses its normal Charisma modifier instead of its Constitution modifier to determine how long a rage lasts. Because undead are immune to fatigue, an undead barbarian is not penalized when a rage ends.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Almost - in 3.5, Undead always use Cha as their casting stat:
Um, what?

First, you quote my description of the Pathfinder rule, not the 3.5 rule. In Pathfinder, spellcasters use 1d20 + CL + [casting stat mod] for Concentration (it's not a skill, but still called a Concentration check).

Second, in 3.5, undead do not use Charisma as casting stat. Undead use Charisma for some very specific things, which includes Concentration, poison/breath weapon/other ability save DCs, and apparently Rage duration, but not as casting stat. I suppose an incorporeal undead illumian wizard with Aeshkrau might be able to get bonus spells from Charisma, but that's far from the general case.

[Thurbane]

Um, what?

First, you quote my description of the Pathfinder rule, not the 3.5 rule. In Pathfinder, spellcasters use 1d20 + CL + [casting stat mod] for Concentration (it's not a skill, but still called a Concentration check).

Second, in 3.5, undead do not use Charisma as casting stat. Undead use Charisma for some very specific things, which includes Concentration, poison/breath weapon/other ability save DCs, and apparently Rage duration, but not as casting stat. I suppose an incorporeal undead illumian wizard with Aeshkrau might be able to get bonus spells from Charisma, but that's far from the general case.

It looks like a simple misunderstanding. I didn't realize you were referencing PF. No big deal. :smallwink:

And you are quite correct about casting stat - that's what I get for posting between calls at work. I meant Concentration checks, not casting stat. I'm fully aware that Undead use normal casting stats for class. At least I didn't say "I love you", like I did to a client on the phone while I was reading a text from my wife! :smallredface: Sometimes I wonder if my persistent insomnia/lack of sleep issues cause my lapses in reason/concentration, or if I might be getting a touch of early onset Alzheimer's. :smalleek:

[ExLibrisMortis]

It looks like a simple misunderstanding. I didn't realize you were referencing PF. No big deal. :smallwink:

And you are quite correct about casting stat - that's what I get for posting between calls at work. I meant Concentration checks, not casting stat. I'm fully aware that Undead use normal casting stats for class. At least I didn't say "I love you", like I did to a client on the phone while I was reading a text from my wife! :smallredface: Sometimes I wonder if my persistent insomnia/lack of sleep issues cause my lapses in reason/concentration, or if I might be getting a touch of early onset Alzheimer's. :smalleek:
Alrighty, cool. Let's assume it's insomnia before anything else, it's far too common!

[Thurbane]

Alrighty, cool. Let's assume it's insomnia before anything else, it's far too common!

I hope so too.

I've been in a pattern of waking up about 4am each day and not getting back to sleep. I start work at 8am. I trt to be in bed at 9pm, so I can at least get 6 or 7 hours sleep.

I need a Ring of Sustenance! :smallbiggrin:

[Hecuba]

Alright. So, if we must operate any class that could have casting, we can still make the luck build work. We'll want to go with a Human and focus on ranged combat. The loss of the floating feat is unfortunate, but workable.

I've deliberately structured the below build so that you can enter the actual Survivor class at 4 if desired: the thread name struck my fancy. Really, though, you probably shouldn't - to make it remotely worthwhile, you'd need to run it to 4 for Imp Evasion, and that means delaying Fortune's Friend.

You could run straight scout to 5 to get Evasion ahead of the PRC. If the fantasy distopia you're surviving in has a glut of reflex saves and a dearth of rings, it might be work it. Lacking human paragon, however, will make Knowledge devotion and skill tricks harder to chase.

I'm not going to spend the skills below, only give the totals- since this involves KD and skill tricks, you'd necessarily need to tailor them to your common encounters. You're a human starting as scout with Human Paragon - you should be able to afford what you need - ex, Knowledge the Planes for Planar touchstone. The totals given presume Int 12 - assuming we're running the Elite array and need to look after Dex & Con.



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Totall Skill Points
Feats
Special
Reroll Count
Notes


1
Scout 1
0
0
2
0
40
Lucky Start
Unbelievable Luck
Sly Fortune
Advantageous Avoidance

Skirmish +1d6
Trapfinding
Flaw: Non-combatant
Flaw: Vunerable
5



2
Fighter 1
1
2
2
0
44
Point Blank Shot

5



3
Human Paragon 1
1
2
2
2
50
Knowledge Devotion
Adaptive Learning
5
Adaptive Learning should go primarily to prop up Knowledge skills for KD


4
Scout 2
2
2
3
2
50

Battle Fortitude 1
Uncanny Dodge
5



5
Human Paragon 2
3
2
3
3
56
Planar Touchstone-CoE: Luck Domain

5+D
You'll need an item from the Catalogs of Enlightenment to pull this off. I suggest it take the form of a lucky charm.


6
Fortune's Friend 1
3
2
5
3
64
Third Time's the Charm
Easy luck
extra fortune
more luck than skill
7 + D



7
Fortune's Friend 2
4
2
6
3
72
Dumb Luck
Special
8 + D



8
Fortune's Friend 3
4
3
6
4
80

Extra fortune
fortune’s favorite
9 + D



9
Fortune's Friend 4
5
3
7
4
88
Survivor's Luck
Tempting Fate


11 + D



10
Fortune's Friend 5
5
3
7
4
96

Extra Fortune
Lucky Strike
12 + D



11
Scout 3
6
4
7
5
106

Fast movement +10ft
Skirmish +1d6 +1AC
trackless step
12 + D



12
Scout 4
7
4
8
5
116
Precise Shot
Make your own luck

13 + D
I'm assuming by this point that you've found someone to be in your party and would like precise shot. If you're still runing around alone trying to survive your fantasy hellscape, pick another scout bonus feat. If nothing else, Imp.Init. is always nice.


13
Scout 5
7
4
8
5
118 + 4 Skill Tricks

Evasion
Skirmish 2d6 1AC
13 + D Count
You can have more skill tricks - I'm just separating out the minimum required for next level's entry


14
Uncanny Trickster 1
7
4
10
5
128 + 4 Skill Tricks

Bonus Skill Trick
Favorite Trick
13 + D
AT least


15
Uncanny Trickster 2
8
4
11
5
138 + 4 Skill Tricks
Lucky Fingers
Improved Skirmish
Bonus Skill Trick
Favorite Trick
14 + D
Uncanny trickster advances Fortune's Friend features to 6, adding another instance of the bonus feat at every even level


16
Uncanny Trickster 3
9
5
11
6
148 + 4 Skill Tricks

Bonus Skill Trick
Favorite Trick
tricky defense
15 + D
Uncanny trickster advances Fortune's Friend features to 7, adding another instance of the extra reroll at every odd level


17-20
Whatever. It's icing.