Silence... A potent weapon?

[samcifer]

I've been considering taking the spell silence. Is it good against enemy casters? Is it worth taking?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I have the spell.

Do you think another party member will be able to hold the spellcaster in the silenced area?

Sorcerers have an ability to silently cast some spells. If you go up against alot of those the DM may realize it eventually.

[ZorroGames]

Not as powerful as I remember it being cast on a Mage or Cleric back in AD&D/OD&D days - it moved with them.

Still certainly has its place in a spell list.

[scalyfreak]

Silence is very convenient when your lives depend on the entire group's ability to move stealthily and you have just realized that the only thing that makes more noise than trying to sneak about in plate armor, is removing it.

[8wGremlin]

Er, Silence doesn't move...



For the duration, no sound can be created within or pass through a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. Any creature or object entirely inside the sphere is immune to thunder damage, and creatures are deafened while entirely inside it.

[Chugger]

Silence works best when someone else casts some spell that causes diff terrain or movement restriction on the targets, too - keeps them from just moving out of the silence area and casting next turn.

Web, entangle etc.

[scalyfreak]

Er, Silence doesn't move...

Nope. But it covers an area of 20 feet, and that is more than enough room for armor removal. :smallbiggrin: And for figuring out how to transport it silently, if your DM is that kind of person.

[EvilAnagram]

Silence is great when you want to storm a room using loud magical explosions and subdue the caster inside.

[Saiga]

It's fantastic if you're already in a confined space against powerful spellcasters. Your own casters will need to switch to crossbows or darts, but sometimes that's worth it to see your martials go to town on the enemy.

[polymphus]

You won't use it often, but it's a lifesaver on occasion -- the ability to totally lock down spellcasters is definitely worthwhile. Often is depends on the terrain, but a 20 foot radius is usually big enough to shut down an entire room, or at least force the spellcaster to come closer to your party to try escaping the bubble.

Last time I used it, an enemy Sorc went from tearing the party to pieces, to only being able to cast Ice Knife.

[greenstone]

It is situationally useful for a grappler build, but when that situation happens, it is really really good.

Without any ability to hold a caster in place, it is pretty much useless.

[Dalebert]

Pass w/o Trace is ideally what you want for stealth. Silence requires keeping casters in it somehow. Nice in tight spaces or when teammates help with grappling and what-not. It also protects from sound attacks. Think banshees and chasme demons (the giant mosquitoes that make a horrible sound that stuns you).

Another thing that works great for casters is to just focus fire and kill 'em really dern dang fast.

[FreddyNoNose]

Er, Silence doesn't move...

In 5e, can silence not be cast on an object?

[Dalebert]

In 5e, can silence not be cast on an object?

It cannot, unlike Darkness. I think it was probably a good balance decision.

[Malifice]

Its great when your party Barbarian grapples the caster inside the silence.

[Tanarii]

Sound can't pass through it. That's really good in a dungeon or anywhere indoors with a 20ft choke point when you don't want to alert creatures in one area that you're fighting creatures in another.

It's a ritual, so if you have ten minutes to do a divide and conquer without alerting either group to your presence, such as targeting a junction from 120 ft away in an area with no patrols, then taking one side passage out with alerting the other.

In combat where you suspect allies beyond the group you're fighting, it can be awesome, although that'll take a slot unless something weird is going on.

Depends on how your DM rules battle sounds attracting allies thoug, so YMMV.

Edit: to be clear, I'm pointing out that in many indoor situations, you don't have to cast it on the battle to stop sounds of battle from alerting others. If the walls are naturally muffling, you just need to put it somewhere in the passageways between the two groups. Because it stops sound going through it, not just in it.

[FreddyNoNose]

Sound can't pass through it. That's really good in a dungeon or anywhere indoors with a 20ft choke point when you don't want to alert creatures in one area that you're fighting creatures in another.

It's a ritual, so if you have ten minutes to do a divide and conquer without alerting either group to your presence, such as targeting a junction from 120 ft away in an area with no patrols, then taking one side passage out with alerting the other.

In combat where you suspect allies beyond the group you're fighting, it can be awesome, although that'll take a slot unless something weird is going on.

Depends on how your DM rules battle sounds attracting allies thoug, so YMMV.

You could be disrupting the normal sounds though also revealing yourself.

[Tanarii]

You could be disrupting the normal sounds though also revealing yourself.
Pretty sure disrupting normal sounds is going to be less revealing than fighting something. In most cases.

[HolyDraconus]

You could be disrupting the normal sounds though also revealing yourself.

Guard A: "Wait.... you hear that.....?"
Guard B:"...Nooo... No I don't hear anything."
Guard A: "Exactly... its quiet.... toooo quiet... must be adventurers near by!"
Guard B:" You sure its not just your nerves?"
Guard A: " Its adventurers! I'm sure of it! They must of cast some kind of spell to.... mask their sounds...~"



Yea if that situation came up in a game I'm playing I would get up and leave. At that point the DM isn't even hiding the fact that he's out to screw you over.

[samcifer]

Guard A: "Wait.... you hear that.....?"
Guard B:"...Nooo... No I don't hear anything."
Guard A: "Exactly... its quiet.... toooo quiet... must be adventurers near by!"



Yea if that situation came up in a game I'm playing I would get up and leave. At that point the DM isn't even hiding the fact that he's out to screw you over.

But if something is making noise the guards can hear and it suddenly stops making noise, it's perfectly plausible that one of them would grow curious and come to investigate why it's not making noise anymore.

[HolyDraconus]

But if something is making noise the guards can hear and it suddenly stops making noise, it's perfectly plausible that one of them would grow curious and come to investigate why it's not making noise anymore.

its only plausible if the guards have meta knowledge. Silence is a 20 ft sphere. There is still sound AROUND it. For that particular spot to stop making sound to be enough to put a guard on ultra high alert means he has meta knowledge which means the DM is out to screw you.

[Tanarii]

its only plausible if the guards have meta knowledge. Silence is a 20 ft sphere. There is still sound AROUND it. For that particular spot to stop making sound to be enough to put a guard on ultra high alert means he has meta knowledge which means the DM is out to screw you.
The context was placing the sphere to block all sound from a direction completely, by placing it at a choke point. For example, in a dungeon, where sound isn't significantly transmitted except through the passageways.

I mean I agree generally speaking, that sudden silence isn't that likely to draw attention unless there was an awful lot of noise to begin with. In which case the sounds of battle would have had to been heard anyway over the ambient noise. So it'd have to be a corner case where:
- you're in an area where you can take advantage of using the spell to block a narrow area to cut off all sound
- there's ambient noise that is quieter than battle, but loud enough it's sudden absence might be noticed
- the enemy notices and decides to investigate.

Pretty marginal IMO. Edit: might be more likely if you suddenly cut off a great hall with a bunch of bards singing from a guard outpost before you chain lightning the hall. Or something where the noise is fairly loud and distinctive, like singing.

[Saiga]

That's not true at all. For example, if the guards can hear the sound of the crackling fire from the camp on the hill above them and it suddenly disappears, that's just as suspicious as the sudden presence of an unexpected sound.

[HolyDraconus]

That's not true at all. For example, if the guards can hear the sound of the crackling fire from the camp on the hill above them and it suddenly disappears, that's just as suspicious as the sudden presence of an unexpected sound.

Let's not forget about cricket # 74 that went silent for roughly 6 seconds. Or Bird #822 that didn't chirp for 3 seconds. Its getting ludicrous....

[Saiga]

No-one brought up those examples except for you. The only thing ludicrous is your false equivalence.

[qube]

Let's not forget about cricket # 74 that went silent for roughly 6 seconds. Or Bird #822 that didn't chirp for 3 seconds. Its getting ludicrous.... but that's your fault.

You conflate cricket #74 could be making nose with cricket #74 should be making noise.

Oppositely, noticing that something that should be making noise, that suddenly isn't, can in certain senario's be super obvious (ex. if that thing is the only thing making a continuous noise in the area, like a roaring campfire in an otherwise silent forest clearing)

[HolyDraconus]

No-one brought up those examples except for you. The only thing ludicrous is your false equivalence.


but that's your fault.

You conflate cricket #74 could be making nose with cricket #74 should be making noise.

Oppositely, noticing that something that should be making noise, that suddenly isn't, can in certain senario's be super obvious (ex. if that thing is the only thing making a continuous noise in the area, like a roaring campfire in an otherwise silent forest clearing)

Here's some extra home work for ya! Go outside to a park! Find a nice, moderately active location with other people loitering in. Now tell me what you hear about... oh... say 100 ft away. When you hear the ants move from where you are sitting over 80ft away, I will concede this point I'm making at you two's expense.

But to be fair...
The context was placing the sphere to block all sound from a direction completely, by placing it at a choke point. For example, in a dungeon, where sound isn't significantly transmitted except through the passageways.

I mean I agree generally speaking, that sudden silence isn't that likely to draw attention unless there was an awful lot of noise to begin with. In which case the sounds of battle would have had to been heard anyway over the ambient noise. So it'd have to be a corner case where:
- you're in an area where you can take advantage of using the spell to block a narrow area to cut off all sound
- there's ambient noise that is quieter than battle, but loud enough it's sudden absence might be noticed
- the enemy notices and decides to investigate.

Pretty marginal IMO. Edit: might be more likely if you suddenly cut off a great hall with a bunch of bards singing from a guard outpost before you chain lightning the hall. Or something where the noise is fairly loud and distinctive, like singing.the bolded is where what you two are talking about WOULD make sense. Generally, anywhere else is just metaknowledge against the players.

[Chugger]

In some cases using silence to try to sneak past creatures will backfire - you'll silence too much of the ambient noise and provoke an investigation.

But people and presumably monsters - especially those bored out of their minds on guard duty - are not smart and/or wise enough to interpret every noise change - even if they notice it. Sure it could happen. A paranoid creature hears a sudden noise drop and suspects something. But much of the time no one will notice it, and if they do they'll shrug it off - it is meta'ing on the DM's part to make them psychic and suddenly _know_ what has happened. These are creatures who probably have no idea a silence spell exists, and even if they do it is likely meta-ing to make them suddenly jump to unjustifiable conclusions. So the posters who were hinting at logical fallacy are right.

Back to the OP's actual topic - as I read it - silence as a weapon - is it any good? Yes and no. How many casters will you fight? Silence used to require a DC or ST and if you failed it would be stuck on the caster (if you cast it on a caster) - screwing him for the duration. It was awesome.

Here silence is only really awesome, from my limited experience, if (1) you fight enough casters who rely on the spoken component to cast spells and (2) if you can have a friend cast something like webs or entangle or the like to make it hard for the enemy caster to leave the silenced area. Otherwise he spend his movement walking out of the silence and just fireballs your or scorching rays you - and you wasted your slot and action. Oh, if you can trap a caster in a small room, it's nice.

[Contrast]

Guard A: " Its adventurers! I'm sure of it! They must of cast some kind of spell to.... mask their sounds...~"

Out of interest do you also have your guards act with shock and awe whenever anyone uses firebolt? Silence is a level 2 spell, not some lost mythical knowledge. In a world where magic exists, people will be aware of its existence.

The point is mostly valid because it makes Silence more difficult to use for sneaky shenanigans in any sort of built up area. Want to cast it so you can break into a safe in the upstairs of a fancy house while a ball goes on downstairs? Suddenly everyone down stairs or walking past in the corridor outside is deafened. Fighting something in an alleyway and don't want the attention of the guard? People living in the houses on either side immediately wander out to find out why they can't speak suddenly.


Edit - Having had a look there seems to only be 16 spells total which don't have a verbal component. That does make it more powerful than I thought as an anti caster tool. Chalk one up for the subtle sorc I guess.

[Citan]

I've been considering taking the spell silence. Is it good against enemy casters? Is it worth taking?
As a direct fighting tool, it's usually worth taking only if...
1) You have someone that can pin down the caster into that silence zone (applying a stun condition, restraining them, putting some difficult terrain etc).
2) But your DM doesn't allow someone to grapple a creature directly on the mouth (so directly preventing the creature to speak, thus disabling any spell that has verbal components -which is the majority-).

As a general tool though? It's extremely good. Even more if you can ritual cast it obviously but even as a plain spell.
The limit of its potential does depend on how DM interprets the plain sound mechanics though (does he apply real-world physics? How isolant are the walls of that place you are in? Etc).

But it has sooo many uses...
- Torturing/Neutralizing violently someone.
- Breaking and entering.
- Moving noisy objects.
- Prepare diversions (create a scene that makes noise while under silence, like creating a fire, then use the remaining time to get away and into another position. When enemies realize its existence, the fire will be so big already they will have their hands full just dealing with it -unless they could smell it early because of smoke).
- Discuss of your secret plan (requires you to be into a room with only one door though, or multiple casts so not very practical, it's really sad you can't make it behave like a "circular wall" of silence instead).

[Azgeroth]

silence is awesome..

things i've used it for.

silence the office of a rather nasty npc we were assassinating. total carnage and murder in perfectly silent serenity..

rescue some npc villagers under a cover of silence, with a distraction

setup an ambush for several spell casters, they were very confused when they couldnt cast or hear each other, just before we caved their faces in.. good times..

so to recap, silence is super useful for any kind of clandestine operation, or where discretion is important, or spellcasters are involved..

also super handy for silencing that guard/bell tower whilst there is still some one manning it.

EDIT: or not waking up the big beastie you want to sneak past.

[Sirithhyando]

Guard A: "Wait.... you hear that.....?"
Guard B:"...Nooo... No I don't hear anything."
Guard A: "Exactly... its quiet.... toooo quiet... must be adventurers near by!"
Guard B:" You sure its not just your nerves?"
Guard A: " Its adventurers! I'm sure of it! They must of cast some kind of spell to.... mask their sounds...~"



Yea if that situation came up in a game I'm playing I would get up and leave. At that point the DM isn't even hiding the fact that he's out to screw you over.

Let's say you're in a mine and there's workers in a room. The guard in the next room would most probably hear the sound the worker are making. If you cut the sound between those two groups, the guards will know right away something is amiss...

Same thing if you're in a forge... I mean... "normal sound" can be very noisy, at which point being stealthy is easier without the silence spell.

As the other said, it's situational, but a great spell nonetheless. Though i'd like it to be able to move with an object.

[Leith]

You don't actually need to pin the spellcaster down to make silence useful. Spellcasters usually don't want to be close to the party, meaning your melee types have to run up to them, possibly making their way through the mage's bodyguards. As long as the spell forces the mage to move somewhere you want them to go, that's good. Also if the spell is not centred on the mage, in an enclosed space, you can force them to spend their turn dashing to get out of it.
Basically it forces the DM to make a decision; don't cast, or move. If you can make both those options bad you've used the spell effectively.

[mephnick]

It's morphed from an anti-caster tool to a prime utility spell. There's so many situations where you think "We could do this to get in but...bah, it'll make too much noise."

[Dimers]

If your DM doesn't assume that the enemy caster knows where your Silence is centered, or doesn't know it has a 20-foot radius, it becomes better for an open area. Realistically many casters should flounder if suddenly and invisibly denied their main tool -- they wouldn't just think, "Oh, let me use my one nonverbal spell or move fifteen feet out of this circle I can't see."

The DM might also decide that Silence can shut out some creatures' special senses, helping to keep PCs invisible in combat.

Though I agree it's more often useful as a utility spell than in combat.

[HolyDraconus]

Let's say you're in a mine and there's workers in a room. The guard in the next room would most probably hear the sound the worker are making. If you cut the sound between those two groups, the guards will know right away something is amiss...

Same thing if you're in a forge... I mean... "normal sound" can be very noisy, at which point being stealthy is easier without the silence spell.

As the other said, it's situational, but a great spell nonetheless. Though i'd like it to be able to move with an object.

20. Feet. Not total. Not 1000. 20. 2 basketball goals, if you will. And, it does nothing to prevent the sounds around it. Imagine having a grid of lights. In the very center, the bulbs are dead. Does that mean ALL the bulbs is dead? No. Just the center. And surprise, you still have light from around the dead space. That is 5e Silence. Placed in a choke point or over something unusually loud, sure, the absence, when searched for, can be noticeable. But a bonfire "up a hill" (nevermind the fact that it's out of sight) that suddenly goes silent? Might as well call them the guards from elder scrolls if they immediately think "adventurers" and not ignored or "just went out from lack of fuel, rain etc"

[Beelzebubba]

Placed in a choke point or over something unusually loud, sure, the absence, when searched for, can be noticeable.

That is EXACTLY what people are talking about here, and you're making a bunch of exaggerated crap up and putting it in their mouths.

Nobody else here is talking about actively screwing players over but you.


But a bonfire "up a hill" (nevermind the fact that it's out of sight) that suddenly goes silent?

I don't know if you actually do things in life, like go to bonfires, but they can be LOUD. Especially social ones, because the fire is loud, and people talk loudly over it, and then they talk loudly over each other as they drink and laugh and have a good time. This example isn't assuming a quiet little crackling campfire that's been built by a few people trying to be hidden, but a BONFIRE.

If that suddenly, immediately went silent? Not slowly, like a party winding down, but like someone pulled a switch? Yeah, that would be creepy as hell. Ominous.

IMO:
Opponents who are savvy with Divine casters would have a very good chance to know what's up immediately. No doubt.
Non-magically savvy intelligent opponents who were paid to be alert to danger would have a very good chance to notice and become very alert until they figure out what's up.
Dumb opponents who are trying to be alert to danger would probably notice, be confused for a bit, and in a few minutes would relax.
Animals would freak out, and if anything else weird happened, would almost certainly bolt.

Why do you think that is so egregiously wrong?

[FreddyNoNose]

Pretty sure disrupting normal sounds is going to be less revealing than fighting something. In most cases.

And a hammer will pound in a nail more than a feather. GJ-ft.