Gestalting Lycanthropes

[Drakevarg]

Just a concept I've been chewing on for my game, but if you took XP concerns out of the way, would it make sense to gestalt lycanthrope RHD with their class levels?

Reason I'm contemplating this is that while I don't gestalt for normal RHD (races tougher than humans shouldn't benefit less from conditioning), lycanthropic RHD seems like something that should be subsumed somewhat. Best way I can articulate my logic is that I think of lycanthropy as less of a physical condition and more of an affliction of the soul. A werewolf barbarian isn't a wolf on top of being a barbarian, he's a wolf in parallel with being a barbarian.

I dunno, this is just a concept that wandered into my head while out getting groceries, but I wanted to get some imput on the notion before I try to look into its application.

[Crake]

Just a concept I've been chewing on for my game, but if you took XP concerns out of the way, would it make sense to gestalt lycanthrope RHD with their class levels?

Reason I'm contemplating this is that while I don't gestalt for normal RHD (races tougher than humans shouldn't benefit less from conditioning), lycanthropic RHD seems like something that should be subsumed somewhat. Best way I can articulate my logic is that I think of lycanthropy as less of a physical condition and more of an affliction of the soul. A werewolf barbarian isn't a wolf on top of being a barbarian, he's a wolf in parallel with being a barbarian.

I dunno, this is just a concept that wandered into my head while out getting groceries, but I wanted to get some imput on the notion before I try to look into its application.

Considering the e6 tag, there's not much wiggle room. For most lycanthropes, you'd barely be left with any room for class levels if you didn't gestalt (a dire werewolf would have none!). This recently came up in my e6 game, and gestalting the racial HD is exactly what we did (the player was afflicted with lycanthropy, rather than coming in as a natural lycanthrope), otherwise he not only wouldn't have been able to take any more class levels, but he would have had to lose some to be able to fit wereboar into 6 levels.

[Drakevarg]

Yeah, for PCs going lycanthrope in E6, it definitely makes sense that RHD would be a problem, since race-based ones would be part of the cap it only makes sense that lycanthropic RHD would too. I hadn't really considered that angle since I don't let my players play as any race with RHD (not for balance reasons, but because the only races in the setting that fit the bill would never be able to act freely in civilization), so it was never really a factor. So with that in mind I guess it only makes sense from a gameplay standpoint to slip those levels in behind so they don't utterly paralyze the build. Fits mechanically, fits narratively, can't think of a reason not to in that case.

[Nifft]

If you're not eliminating LA, then there's even less room than you'd think.

Lots of animals hae 6 RHD (tiger, bear, direwolf), but even those with fewer than 6 RHD might not have any room in E6.

Wearboar, for example, has only 3 RHD... but also +3 LA. No room for levels unless you gestalt the RHD or house-rule away (some of) the LA.


My recommendation would be to not use the default rules for Lycanthropy in an E6 game. Come up with something more E6-friendly.

[Drakevarg]

Given that my setting avoids "fantasy kitchen sink" enough to judge applicability on a case-by-case basis, my general rule is to ignore LA and use the larger of RHD or CR as ECL. Given the power of some classes I think it's kind of a tall order to say any RHD are worth more than an equivalent number of class levels.

[Ashtagon]

Given that the main point of e6 is to abandon power creep as a thing and make gritty stories possible, I'm not sure why someone contemplating this wouldn't just play by standard rules instead of working within the e6 framework.

[Drakevarg]

Given that the main point of e6 is to abandon power creep as a thing and make gritty stories possible, I'm not sure why someone contemplating this wouldn't just play by standard rules instead of working within the e6 framework.

Because that opens up a massive array of powerful elements, not just lycanthropy. "I want werewolves" is not the same thing as "I want technicolor wizard showdowns."

[Ashtagon]

> power creep

> powerful elements

http://www.pmslweb.com/the-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/31-funny-you-miss-the-point-cartoon.jpg

[Drakevarg]

One comes with the other. If I use standard rules, I have to play with standard rules. I don't want to. I want to play with low-powered E6 rules, and also werewolves.

[Ashtagon]

You can want that if you like. Personally I want a pony.

[Drakevarg]

You can want that if you like. Personally I want a pony.

...do you have anything useful to add to the conversation?

[Psyren]

I'm not quite sure what feedback you're looking for. Yes, as long as the ECL is 6 or lower, you can probably use it in E6 without issues. Yes, CR is a good replacement for LA+RHD as ECL (in fact, that is how Pathfinder does it.) And in particular, since you're doing gestalt, the final characters will end up a little stronger overall than normal E6 characters, so you have a little bit more breathing room challenge-wise too. So the notion is fine.

[Drakevarg]

I'm not quite sure what feedback you're looking for. Yes, as long as the ECL is 6 or lower, you can probably use it in E6 without issues. Yes, CR is a good replacement for LA+RHD as ECL (in fact, that is how Pathfinder does it.) And in particular, since you're doing gestalt, the final characters will end up a little stronger overall than normal E6 characters, so you have a little bit more breathing room challenge-wise too. So the notion is fine.

A basic "this idea does/does not make sense mechanically/conceptually" overview was all I was really after, which is most of what I've gotten. The rest was trying to make sense of Ashtagon's unhelpful "y u do dis" remarks.

[tstewt1921]

If it's Gestalt, then what you want to do is go into Savage species and take Lycanthrope as a class if it's available, it would make it the easiest to do the hit die adjustments and what not.

[Crake]

Given that the main point of e6 is to abandon power creep as a thing and make gritty stories possible, I'm not sure why someone contemplating this wouldn't just play by standard rules instead of working within the e6 framework.

Considering many people already allow for gestalt in e6 anyway by means of spending usually one or two e6 feats per gestalt level, I would hardly say it's power creep. Especially since gestalting the racial HD is decidedly less powerful than adding it right on top. Regarding LA, e6 handles it in it's own way (by reducing your point buy). Not sure how you'd handle this for afflicted lycanthropes, that'd be up to your DM, but all that said, lycanthropy is certainly an iconic threat in traditional gritty stories. Having a player have to deal with lycanthropy in e6, where the max ranks in change shape are 9, and taking a quarter of your hp in damage forces you to change into an animal if you can't pass a DC25 change shape check makes the template itself a downside in addition to it's benefits.

I honestly would hardly call lycanthropy "power creep".

[Yogibear41]

Pick up the D20 Modern Book on Werewolves, gives the Werewolves a class (its 10 levels) and just take the first 6 of them as a gestalt. Its less powerful, but it has no LA. If you do I would recommend using the control shape alternate rules to the limited uses per day, but that is just me.


http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19755/After-Sunset--Werewolves?term=after+sunset&test_epoch=0&it=1


$3.50 on drive through rpg.

[DrKerosene]

Lets say you have 2LA from afflicted, and then the 4HD from whatever animal (Dire Crow, Cow, advanced Penguin, etc). That would be a BAB of 3.

A Wizard3/Master Specialist3 would normally have BAB of 2, but with normal Gestalt would have a BAB of 4 by level 6. With better Saves and HP too.

A Rogue5/Assassin1 would have a BAB of 3, but would be at BAB 5 with the 4RHD matching the PC during levels 3-6. Also better HP and Fort Saves.

A Bard would be slightly tougher too, a Sorc would benefit plenty.

For ways to thematically break the level cap in E6. Would you consider allowing a PC to take levels in Emancipated Spawn prc? If yes, can they take 2 levels of ES, then 3 levels of some other (prestige?)class before the last level of ES? That would end in 12 class levels plus 6 or more undead HD.