Do You Wanna Kill a Planet?

[Tinkerer]

So I was thinking the other day about the amount of power that a player should have and one of the things which sprang to mind was that a player generally (there are exceptions) shouldn't have enough power to destroy a planet. If there is a method of doing this then it's normally an indication that something has gone wrong in the game design. I was curious about methods of destroying the world across several systems. If I could lay down some ground rules here:

1) All PC abilities must be drawn from valid PC choices of the main books and setting books. No adventure books (looking at you Apocalypse Stone).

2) No GM adjudicated abilities. Theoretically a wish spell may be able to destroy the world in D&D however I think everyone can agree that would be a pretty dumb idea that no GM would allow.

3) It should result in the death of just about every creature on the world. Creatures able to flee the planet may survive and certain super tough entities like physical gods may be able to tank it but we are talking about a general sort of apocalypse here.

4) It shouldn't require equipment that the PCs don't normally have access to.

So far I recall two that I've run across.

1) FATAL - Not surprisingly the system which is the punchline of bad design has one built in. This one is somewhat unique in that it isn't an accident on the part of the developer but quite intentional, although the activation of it is likely to be accidental. FATAL has Fatal, the 10th level spell which instantly kills all life on the planet. I haven't dived into the rules far enough to know how difficult it is to cast (it looks insanely difficult and for good reason) however every time you cast a spell in FATAL there is a small chance that you will accidentally cast this spell instead and end the world.

2) Savage Rifts - Okay this one requires a bit more set up. I'm AFB at the moment so you'll have to excuse my lack of specifics. In order to perform this one you will require at least 7-8 players all of whom will have to be Ley Line Walkers (mages for those who aren't familiar). The Ley Line Walker has an ability which allows them to teleport to any Ley Line Nexus which they can see, this is altered from the original where it had to be connected to the Ley Line you were currently on. I don't think the designers realized that in Rifts Earth at the right times you can see the Ley Lines on the moon. So step 1, teleport your party to the moon! Just make sure they have protection.

Step 2: Have all of the Ley Line Walkers buff a single Ley Line Walkers Spirit (or Smarts I can't recall) stat. You can then use Mega-Telekinesis to MOVE THE ENTIRE MOON! This is due to 2 factors. 1) Buffs from one particular spell explicitly stack in Savage Worlds. 2) Telekinesis allows you to move objects with your mind as though your Spirit (or Smarts, again I'm AFB) was your Strength stat. The Strength stat doubles what you can move per point of increase when you go above the top of the chart. And since they Ley Line Walkers are sitting on a nexus point they can keep the spell going for an unlimited amount of time. Which is good because it will require approximately 1 month to pilot the moon right into the Earth, not accounting for the fact that eventually Earth will start to pull it in via gravity. Now I am familiar with the Roche limit however there are ways around it depending on the angle and speed of approach. So long story short we would be looking at an event 1000x bigger that the one which killed the dinosaurs.

Needless to say I ruled that this particular spell no longer stacks in my campaigns.

So what other methods have people found for destroying entire gaming worlds? I seem to recall a method in 3.5 of inflicting unlimited damage by taking unlimited damage but I can't remember the specifics. Call of Cthulu is an obvious choice however I can't recall anything concrete in there.

NOTE: This is a totally passive and fun post. Feel free to derail away debating the feasibility of any possibilities so long as it's fun.

Worlds Definitely Destroyed:
Savage Rifts - I throwa da moon
F.A.T.A.L. - The titular spell
D&D 3.X - So many methods see this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227513-Destroying-the-world-as-we-know-it-a-Handbook
Dark Heresy - Psyker Fire Storm
GURPS - The M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=239055
Carnage 3:16 - Planet Killing Missiles are standard gear if you attain a high enough rank
Mutants and Masterminds 3e - Massive Area Expulsion Power, or Push the Planet Into the Sun, or being one of the few systems to actually stat the Earth (kudos to that system for that), or... look there's lotsa ways
DC Heroes - Stat'd Earth, purchasable abilities to destroy it as long as you are at least a moderately established hero.
D&D 5e - Simulacrum+Wish.

Worlds Maybe Destroyed: Requires additional research or conditional
Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine - Only if the planet is spiritually unimportant
D&D 4e - Allabar. Sure it's a planet but it explicitly says you cannot fight it in it's planet form
SLA Industries - Not familiar with this system however from the sounds of Wraith's post it looks like you require GM fiat on either front. If anyone is familiar please check out Wraith's post on page 2.
Dark Heresy - Exterminus. I don't think this is something the players themselves normally control? I could be wrong? I don't have this one.
Star Wars - Planetary Bombardment. Same as above I don't think it's within the scope of a normal campaign to gain access to the equipment to do this.

Standard Methods Methods which work across multiple systems
Accelerating a space ship to relativistic speeds and crashing it into the planet.
Achieve immortality, outlive the planet.

Things which have come up which won't work
Sphere of Annihilation in various editions of D&D at the core of the Earth. Takes too long (longer than your character's likely life), too easy to detect, too easy to disrupt.

[Evoker]

I think this would work in 3/3.5e D&D:

Create a repeating magic trap of Widened Disintegrate. Surround it on all sides with permanence'd wall of force except for a arrow-slit for it to target through. Have it be built to trigger constantly, disintegrating the ground below it. Wait for it to reach the molten core of the planet. Massive super volcano eruption.

Alternatively, I think there's something to do with meta-breath feats. Widen and make more powerful X10000. Kill everything on the planet.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I used the greater demiplane of projectile acceleration in one Pathfinder campaign.

Use a Permanency Greater Demiplane that is in vacuum and loops around at the edges, which are specific properties that you can add to your demiplane, and you can double g as well to halve your weapon's "charging time".

When your dense object is travelling fast enough, you can Gate it into the planet for a cataclysmic impact.



Of course, I'm fairly certain more of our party could survive that particular apocalypse, assuming we weren't at ground zero [and even then, at least some of us could survive ground zero], than couldn't, so it's not really a big deal.




And, of course, there's always multistage cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombing, atmospheric incinerator ordnance, and all the other Exterminatus techniques that a Dark Heresy party can employ, and your Star Wars party can, hypothetically, base-delta-zero a planet, and so on.

[Max_Killjoy]

I used the greater demiplane of projectile acceleration in one Pathfinder campaign.

Use a Permanency Greater Demiplane that is in vacuum and loops around at the edges, which are specific properties that you can add to your demiplane, and you can double g as well to halve your weapon's "charging time".

When your dense object is travelling fast enough, you can Gate it into the planet for a cataclysmic impact.

Magic mass accelerator. Relativistic, if applicable in the setting. Ouch.

[Tinkerer]

I used the greater demiplane of projectile acceleration in one Pathfinder campaign.

Use a Permanency Greater Demiplane that is in vacuum and loops around at the edges, which are specific properties that you can add to your demiplane, and you can double g as well to halve your weapon's "charging time".

When your dense object is travelling fast enough, you can Gate it into the planet for a cataclysmic impact.

snip

And, of course, there's always multistage cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombing, atmospheric incinerator ordnance, and all the other Exterminatus techniques that a Dark Heresy party can employ, and your Star Wars party can, hypothetically, base-delta-zero a planet, and so on.

Interesting. That sounds like it would be an cool thing to crunch some numbers on (well cool for someone who likes determining how long it would take an elephant to accelerate at 2g to be able to destroy a planet). I have used circle portals to accelerate something's mass before but only in an atmosphere where there is a hard limit.

I haven't played Dark Heresy yet although I am familiar with the universe so I can't really comment there but I know in Star Wars assuming standard character generation procedure that's more like asking someone else to destroy the world rather than destroying it yourselves (see requirements 2 and 4).

EDIT:
I think this would work in 3/3.5e D&D:

Create a repeating magic trap of Widened Disintegrate. Surround it on all sides with permanence'd wall of force except for a arrow-slit for it to target through. Have it be built to trigger constantly, disintegrating the ground below it. Wait for it to reach the molten core of the planet. Massive super volcano eruption.

Alternatively, I think there's something to do with meta-breath feats. Widen and make more powerful X10000. Kill everything on the planet.

Meant to address this one too. Disintegrate can't be widened as it's a ray right? Were you meaning to use another term? It would also need to be widened to an extreme level in order to create a super volcano. But that would require some more research. I highly doubt that a super volcano would result anyway (those are caused by pressure and a straight hole suddenly put in the earth wouldn't really result in that). I don't know about the meta-breath feats but I'm assuming by your X10000 that you are saying it's something which can be applied infinitely? Because X10000 isn't really going to cut it.

[Chijinda]

Interesting. That sounds like it would be an cool thing to crunch some numbers on (well cool for someone who likes determining how long it would take an elephant to accelerate at 2g to be able to destroy a planet). I have used circle portals to accelerate something's mass before but only in an atmosphere where there is a hard limit.

I haven't played Dark Heresy yet although I am familiar with the universe so I can't really comment there but I know in Star Wars assuming standard character generation procedure that's more like asking someone else to destroy the world rather than destroying it yourselves (see requirements 2 and 4).

Dark Heresy exterminatus is a thing, though, it is TECHNICALLY feasible to be a one-man Armageddon in Ascension, via a bit of combos for an Ascension-level Psyker. While I don't have my Ascension rulebook on-hand, it basically involves a flamestorm that continuously expands until the power ends. The Psyker in question suffers damage and fatigue every turn they continue to maintain it, but that is easily compensated with the CRB Regeneration power. Combine those two, and couple that with a Primaris Psyker's absurd Willpower Bonus (due to access to Unnatural Willpowerx3, which could easily give them a WPB of over 20) and Psy Ratings allowing them to fetter almost all their powers and still reliably get them to work, and a Psyker could very easily achieve an infinitely expanding firestorm. It's a little bit game-y but it would work (it's also a premier showing of how terrible Ascension's design is).

[Tinkerer]

Dark Heresy exterminatus is a thing, though, it is TECHNICALLY feasible to be a one-man Armageddon in Ascension, via a bit of combos for an Ascension-level Psyker. While I don't have my Ascension rulebook on-hand, it basically involves a flamestorm that continuously expands until the power ends. The Psyker in question suffers damage and fatigue every turn they continue to maintain it, but that is easily compensated with the CRB Regeneration power. Combine those two, and couple that with a Primaris Psyker's absurd Willpower Bonus (due to access to Unnatural Willpowerx3, which could easily give them a WPB of over 20) and Psy Ratings allowing them to fetter almost all their powers and still reliably get them to work, and a Psyker could very easily achieve an infinitely expanding firestorm. It's a little bit game-y but it would work (it's also a premier showing of how terrible Ascension's design is).

Neat, that is a lot more of a PC apocalypse than asking your superiors to wipe out the planet. I'm gonna jot that one down.

[Drakevarg]

Strictly speaking, "GM-adjudicated abilities" are the only way to kill a planet in most systems simply because most systems don't have rules for anything remotely at that scale. In 3.5 (for example), planets have no stats and thus can't be destroyed unless the DM says so. A demiplane railgun would deal 20d6 and not a point more, because it's gravity-accelerated and thus would use falling object rules. And of course projectile weapons don't generally have splash damage so they would smush whatever you aimed it at and affect nothing else.

Physics and game systems don't cooperate. Attempting to make the latter simulate the former is almost always arbitrary (X event does Y damage, so an event that is ten times as big as X should do 10Y damage) and contradictory (but a different rule has a similar event do Z damage instead, meaning that extrapolating from that event would have a totally different outcome).

Which isn't to say you can't kill a planet in these systems. Just saying that the rules won't support it because the rules aren't and never pretend to be laws of physics.

[Tinkerer]

Strictly speaking, "GM-adjudicated abilities" are the only way to kill a planet in most systems simply because most systems don't have rules for anything remotely at that scale. In 3.5 (for example), planets have no stats and thus can't be destroyed unless the DM says so. A demiplane railgun would deal 20d6 and not a point more, because it's gravity-accelerated and thus would use falling object rules. And of course projectile weapons don't generally have splash damage so they would smush whatever you aimed it at and affect nothing else.

Physics and game systems don't cooperate. Attempting to make the latter simulate the former is almost always arbitrary (X event does Y damage, so an event that is ten times as big as X should do 10Y damage) and contradictory (but a different rule has a similar event do Z damage instead, meaning that extrapolating from that event would have a totally different outcome).

Which isn't to say you can't kill a planet in these systems. Just saying that the rules won't support it because the rules aren't and never pretend to be laws of physics.

Yes-ish? I believe that they use terminal velocity as a term in the 3.5 book... and I just checked the SRD and they do not. Neat. So you are correct and it would max out at 20d6 RAW. A planets stats can be extrapolated however. We know the rough size and mass of the planet and they do provide systems for calculating the damage capacity of inanimate objects. So they have stats, just not listed ones. And I know Physics and game systems don't mix, that's the fun of these thought experiments. It's also neat to see which systems have infinite recursive loops.

[Drakevarg]

A planets stats can be extrapolated however. We know the rough size and mass of the planet and they do provide systems for calculating the damage capacity of inanimate objects.

As previously mentioned, dice systems and extrapolation don't play nice together. And we don't really have any way of knowing the size and mass of the planet because it's similarly not specified - "basically Earth-like" is a pretty broad description that itself runs on presumption and fiat. The world could just as easily be flat, manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle, be hollow inside, all sorts of things that would throw calculations off without losing the superficial resemblance to Earth to people actually standing on it.

[Lord Torath]

I think this would work in 3/3.5e D&D:

Create a repeating magic trap of Widened Disintegrate. Surround it on all sides with permanence'd wall of force except for a arrow-slit for it to target through. Have it be built to trigger constantly, disintegrating the ground below it. Wait for it to reach the molten core of the planet. Massive super volcano eruption.How does this work? I was under the impression that Disintegrate had a limited range (an order of magnitude or two less than a mile). Is the idea that this force-box/wand combo disintegrates the ground beneath it, falls down, then again disintegrates the ground, falls, and repeats until it reaches the core? Or at least the mantle? Because our crust isn't that strong. Your hole would collapse on top of your force box before it's fallen more than 100 feet or so, and your hole would self-plug all the rest of the way down to the core. Granted, you're still destroying 1000 cubic feet of planet every round, but Earth is big1, and it will take billions of years before you even start to make a dent. But you're not going to be getting a super volcano out of a 10x10 hole.


It's a little bit game-y but it would work (it's also a premier showing of how terrible Ascension's design is).No worries. That is entirely the point of this thread!

1. Citation needed.

Okay, okay, you got me. I did the math. Assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere (it's close enough for this example) with a radius of 3963.19 miles, it's got a volume of 3.838x1022 cubic feet. That's 3.838x1019 disintegrates. At one per six seconds, that's still 7.3x1012 years to disintegrate it all. A billion years after dropping your disinte-box, you've reduced the total volume of the planet by roughly a percent of one percent of the total.

[Tinkerer]

As previously mentioned, dice systems and extrapolation don't play nice together. And we don't really have any way of knowing the size and mass of the planet because it's similarly not specified - "basically Earth-like" is a pretty broad description that itself runs on presumption and fiat. The world could just as easily be flat, manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle, be hollow inside, all sorts of things that would throw calculations off without losing the superficial resemblance to Earth to people actually standing on it.

Yep, that's definitely true and I've given players crap before for assuming that physics has a place in the D&D world. The two specific environments which I gave *were Earth though*. Thus we can assume that crashing the moon into it will destroy it. And on the other one it simply kills everyone so the type of planet doesn't matter.

For 3.5 you can pick a particular world which is defined or you can go with an approach which provides theoretically infinite damage under the assumption that infinite damage will do enough to destroy the world. Indeed I still vaguely recall something from 3.5 which allows you to deal damage based on how much damage you receive and something else which allows you to receive infinite damage.

Additionally note that I said no GM adjudicated abilities, assigning stats to Earth isn't an ability. I mainly introduced that rule as a way to block abilities which require an excess of GM fiat such as wish or meta-currencies.

[Evoker]

How does this work? I was under the impression that Disintegrate had a limited range (an order of magnitude or two less than a mile). Is the idea that this force-box/wand combo disintegrates the ground beneath it, falls down, then again disintegrates the ground, falls, and repeats until it reaches the core? Or at least the mantle? Because our crust isn't that strong. Your hole would collapse on top of your force box before it's fallen more than 100 feet or so, and your hole would self-plug all the rest of the way down to the core. Granted, you're still destroying 1000 cubic feet of planet every round, but Earth is big1, and it will take billions of years before you even start to make a dent. But you're not going to be getting a super volcano out of a 10x10 hole.


Good point. You need to add a repeating magic trap of Extended wall of force. Have it brace the shaft with the walls.

[Lord Torath]

Good point. You need to add a repeating magic trap of Extended wall of force. Have it brace the shaft with the walls.Even then, the lava will quickly (1-2 weeks) form a plug over the top of the hole. And if you're "wall-of-forcing" as you go down, you're sealing your hole against all that nice hot magma you're trying to get to the surface. No volcano for you! :smallamused:

[Evoker]

Even then, the lava will quickly (1-2 weeks) form a plug over the top of the hole. And if you're "wall-of-forcing" as you go down, you're sealing your hole against all that nice hot magma you're trying to get to the surface. No volcano for you! :smallamused:

no, you wall the edges of the pit only. the pressure at the earth's core should cause the lava to move up rapidly.

Cross-section Diagram:

======
=++++=
=+~~+=
=+~~+=
=++++=
======

= is the edges of the disintegrated ground
+ is the wall of force
~ is magma.

does that make sense?

[Khedrac]

Gold box Immortal D&D, in addition to the sentient planets you get the four Elemasters which are the ultimate immortal elementals.
Each one has stats of 75, which for strength gives a base 75% chance to throw something (amongst other things).
The twist is that the elemasters do not take a penalty on stat checks involving their own element, so the fire elemaster has a 75% chance to throw a star at something - goodbye planet.
The Earth elemaster can use a large rocky planet and the Air elemaster a gas giant - not as effective as a star, but not shabby.
Of course, PCs won't be the elemasters so they get to take difficulty checks and cannot do this, so this is another GM only technique.

[Max_Killjoy]

no, you wall the edges of the pit only. the pressure at the earth's core should cause the lava to move up rapidly.

Cross-section Diagram:

======
=++++=
=+~~+=
=+~~+=
=++++=
======

= is the edges of the disintegrated ground
+ is the wall of force
~ is magma.

does that make sense?

Yes.

But the magma/lava still cools, solidifies, builds up, and forms a plug, eventually, unless you take steps to keep the top of the hole open.

[Evoker]

Yes.

But the magma/lava still cools, solidifies, builds up, and forms a plug, eventually, unless you take steps to keep the top of the hole open.

the magma should only be able to solidify far from the hole once the other lava is not pushing it up, right?

[Tinkerer]

no, you wall the edges of the pit only. the pressure at the earth's core should cause the lava to move up rapidly.

Cross-section Diagram:

======
=++++=
=+~~+=
=+~~+=
=++++=
======

= is the edges of the disintegrated ground
+ is the wall of force
~ is magma.

does that make sense?

I have doubts that it would act as a planet destroying super-volcano though. I mean we've put holes that size in the crust before several times. Volcanoes are a combination of several different factors and this only provides one of them. You would get some magma spewing out but nothing planet destroying.

[Drakevarg]

Yes.

But the magma/lava still cools, solidifies, builds up, and forms a plug, eventually, unless you take steps to keep the top of the hole open.

Also, doesn't disintegrate only reduce things to dust? Most of it dissipates so in normal circumstances it's a non-factor, but when you're trying to dig a 3900 mile pit I have to imagine eventually you'll be firing disintegrate beams mostly at pre-disintegrated dust.

[Evoker]

Also, doesn't disintegrate only reduce things to dust? Most of it dissipates so in normal circumstances it's a non-factor, but when you're trying to dig a 3900 mile pit I have to imagine eventually you'll be firing disintegrate beams mostly at pre-disintegrated dust.

It's unclear. creatures leave behind a trace of fine dust, but it's unclear whether objects do or not.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't know about the meta-breath feats but I'm assuming by your X10000 that you are saying it's something which can be applied infinitely? Because X10000 isn't really going to cut it.

Meta-breath feats let you apply effects to your breath weapon in exchange for increasing the recharge time, and can sometimes be applied multiple times to a single breath. The two that let you destroy the world are Enlarge Breath, which lets your breath weapon affect a larger area, and Lingering Breath, which creates a lasting cloud that re-applies your breath weapon's effect. Both of these feats can be applied any number of times to a breath weapon, allowing a dragon to create a cloud that engulfs the entire world and lasts for years. Best used by a shadow dragon, whose breath weapon inflicts negative leves, or a pyroclastic dragon, whose breath weapon is a disintegrate effect.

[Lord Torath]

no, you wall the edges of the pit only. the pressure at the earth's core should cause the lava to move up rapidly.

Cross-sectionPlan View (looking down from above) Diagram:

======
=++++=
=+~~+=
=+~~+=
=++++=
======

= is the edges of the disintegrated ground
+ is the wall of force
~ is magma.

does that make sense?That actually looks like a Plan View to me (view from above?)

Here's an actual Cross Section view (# = Disinte-Box, .. = air-filled interior of Wall of Force-reinforced hole)
==+..+==
==+..+==
==+..+==
==+..+==
~~+..+~~
~~+..+~~
~~+..+~~
~~+..+~~
~~+#+~~
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~

You've always got a wall of force between you and the magma, whether it's the ones you're putting to the sides as you go down, or it's the one with the teeny hole for the disintegrate beam to shoot through.

Really, though, you'd never get past the first place you encountered magma. Rock is dense stuff, and so is liquid rock. Your disinte-box is mostly air and magically weightless walls of force, and the magma is too dense for it to sink through. I imagine the magma would push you back up through the tube until you hit some sort of equilibrium point where the magma is raising at 10' per six seconds and, your disinte-box is disintegrating it back down every 6 seconds.

[Tinkerer]

Meta-breath feats let you apply effects to your breath weapon in exchange for increasing the recharge time, and can sometimes be applied multiple times to a single breath. The two that let you destroy the world are Enlarge Breath, which lets your breath weapon affect a larger area, and Lingering Breath, which creates a lasting cloud that re-applies your breath weapon's effect. Both of these feats can be applied any number of times to a breath weapon, allowing a dragon to create a cloud that engulfs the entire world and lasts for years. Best used by a shadow dragon, whose breath weapon inflicts negative leves, or a pyroclastic dragon, whose breath weapon is a disintegrate effect.

Wow, I do feel dumb for not checking the archives. There is a collection of 3.5 world ending effects at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227513-Destroying-the-world-as-we-know-it-a-Handbook Yep that is the very first one on the list haha.

[Lord Torath]

Meta-breath feats let you apply effects to your breath weapon in exchange for increasing the recharge time, and can sometimes be applied multiple times to a single breath. The two that let you destroy the world are Enlarge Breath, which lets your breath weapon affect a larger area, and Lingering Breath, which creates a lasting cloud that re-applies your breath weapon's effect. Both of these feats can be applied any number of times to a breath weapon, allowing a dragon to create a cloud that engulfs the entire world and lasts for years. Best used by a shadow dragon, whose breath weapon inflicts negative leves, or a pyroclastic dragon, whose breath weapon is a disintegrate effect.How long of a recharge time do you need to affect 3.84x1022 cubic feet?

[Lalliman]

Maybe not directly world-ending, but there's a ridiculous loophole you can do in D&D 3.5 that'll probably give you some potential for world-destroying.

The Book of Vile Darkness has a prestige class called Cancer Mage, which ignores all of the negative effects of diseases. There's also (from another source, not sure what) a disease called Festering Anger, which every day from its onset causes 1d3 Constitution damage and a +2 bonus to Strength. The Cancer Mage ignores the Con damage while gaining the Str bonus.

So basically: be a Cancer Mage, be infected by Festering Anger, then wait about a year. You now have 700 Strength, which is more than enough to lift the entire Earth.

Obviously, you'll need to be a bit inventive, since punching the ground will merely displace the dirt, and trying to lift the Earth will just be you doing a handstand. But you can probably figure out a way to turn a mountain into a meteorite, or to punch some volcanoes and make them erupt.

[Tinkerer]

How long of a recharge time do you need to affect 3.84x1022 cubic feet?

Not sure if it's that area but apparently only 10 years. That doesn't sound right but I can't math it right now.

EDIT: Read a little further in the post and it doesn't appear to be valid based on the fact that the specific Metabreaths which allow stacking state that and Enlarge Breath doesn't. So it's a little grey.

EDIT 2: Removed due to unclear reading

[InvisibleBison]

How long of a recharge time do you need to affect 3.84x1022 cubic feet?

To create a cloud of disintegrating energy that engulfs a planet and lingers for ten years would require a Young pyroclastic dragon to put its breath weapon on cooldown for 20 years, 293 days, 8 hours and 1d4 rounds.

1d4 rounds is the base recharge time.
Applying Spread Breath to make the breath weapon into a 20-foot radius spread is 2 rounds.
Using Enlarge Breath to increase the radius to 8,000 miles is 4,223,998 rounds.
Using Lingering Breath to make the breath weapon linger for 10 years is 20 years (1 round of lingering = 2 rounds recharge time).


EDIT: Read a little further in the post and it doesn't appear to be valid based on the fact that the specific Metabreaths which allow stacking state that and Enlarge Breath doesn't. So it's a little grey.

The text of the feat doesn't say that Enlarge Breath can stack, but the explanation of how some metabreath feats can stack uses Enlarge Breath as an example, so it is an ambiguous situation.

[Max_Killjoy]

To create a cloud of disintegrating energy that engulfs a planet and lingers for ten years would require a Young pyroclastic dragon to put its breath weapon on cooldown for 20 years, 293 days, 8 hours and 1d4 rounds.

1d4 rounds is the base recharge time.
Applying Spread Breath to make the breath weapon into a 20-foot radius spread is 2 rounds.
Using Enlarge Breath to increase the radius to 8,000 miles is 4,223,998 rounds.
Using Lingering Breath to make the breath weapon linger for 10 years is 20 years (1 round of lingering = 2 rounds recharge time).



The text of the feat doesn't say that Enlarge Breath can stack, but the explanation of how some metabreath feats can stack uses Enlarge Breath as an example, so it is an ambiguous situation.


Does the long cooldown come before or after the actual usage?

[InvisibleBison]

Does the long cooldown come before or after the actual usage?

The cooldown comes after the usage.

[Tinkerer]

I was under the assumption that examples were specifically called out as not being rules worthy due to the many many many flawed examples in 3.5?

[InvisibleBison]

I was under the assumption that examples were specifically called out as not being rules worthy due to the many many many flawed examples in 3.5?

Yes, that is a reasonable line of thought - it's why this is an ambiguous situation instead of an obvious error. It could be that they initially thought Enlarge Breath should be able to stack, then decided against it and forgot to update the example to use a different feat. It could also be that they simply forgot to include a clause in Enlarge Breath stating that it should be able to stack. There's no way to tell which was intended, so it depends on DM adjudication. Which I suppose means it's not a good entry for this thread, since you said you don't want abilities that require DM adjudication.

[Friv]

Is it a spiritually important planet?

If you're playing in "Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine", and you have the arc "Accursed" at 3 or higher (starting characters get three Arc levels of their choice, so it's doable) you can, at any time, spend 4 MP to flat-out destroy as much as you want, with no scale or concept limitations. (At earlier levels, you could try to argue that a planet is "a thing", and thus can be destroyed by your ability to destroy one thing, but that is... that is GM adjudication right there.)

Of course, there are a lot of ways to stop you. If the planet has anyone else on it with miraculous powers that protect things, a miracle of Level 3 or greater could ward off your terrible power. If the planet has someone who is a spiritually big deal (a "Main Character", as it were, which covers PCs and major NPCs) they could oppose your power through a scene that explains why it is spiritually and emotionally important for them that this world not be destroyed, and in doing so undo your grim work. And if you turn your power on a godlike entity, they can choose to merely be wounded instead of dissolving into nothing.

But if the planet doesn't have mystical and miraculous forces on it, it is going to go poof.

[Tinkerer]

Is it a spiritually important planet?

If you're playing in "Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine", and you have the arc "Accursed" at 3 or higher (starting characters get three Arc levels of their choice, so it's doable) you can, at any time, spend 4 MP to flat-out destroy as much as you want, with no scale or concept limitations. (At earlier levels, you could try to argue that a planet is "a thing", and thus can be destroyed by your ability to destroy one thing, but that is... that is GM adjudication right there.)

Of course, there are a lot of ways to stop you. If the planet has anyone else on it with miraculous powers that protect things, a miracle of Level 3 or greater could ward off your terrible power. If the planet has someone who is a spiritually big deal (a "Main Character", as it were, which covers PCs and major NPCs) they could oppose your power through a scene that explains why it is spiritually and emotionally important for them that this world not be destroyed, and in doing so undo your grim work. And if you turn your power on a godlike entity, they can choose to merely be wounded instead of dissolving into nothing.

But if the planet doesn't have mystical and miraculous forces on it, it is going to go poof.

I would assume that most inhabited planets would have something like that. But it meets my requirements... So yeah! I guess that works. But it just baaaarrreeellly squeaks by. It's a case of "You can destroy a world... unless it's interesting."

[DataNinja]

4e D&D actually has a planet that you can fight. In the Monster Manual 3, there's Allabar, Opener of the Way. It's a planet corrupted by the energies of the Far Realm, but a planet nonetheless. So, yes, 4e has a 100% RAW (and RAI) way for PCs to kill (not even just destroy, actually kill, as per the thread title) a planet (albeit a specific one).

I feel like this is probably not what was intended by this thread, but I thought I'd bring it up anyways. :smalltongue:

[Tinkerer]

4e D&D actually has a planet that you can fight. In the Monster Manual 3, there's Allabar, Opener of the Way. It's a planet corrupted by the energies of the Far Realm, but a planet nonetheless. So, yes, 4e has a 100% RAW (and RAI) way for PCs to kill (not even just destroy, actually kill, as per the thread title) a planet (albeit a specific one).

I feel like this is probably not what was intended by this thread, but I thought I'd bring it up anyways. :smalltongue:

Hmm, another tricky to judge one. At first thought BADASS! But then you go and look it up only to realize that they actually specifically say that you cannot fight it in it's planet form and you get very sad indeed :smallfrown: It's like if you have a tyrannosaurus polymorphed into the form of a kitten and then you suplex the kitten... can you truly be said to have suplexed a tyrannosaurus?

[Knaight]

I'd need to double check, but I'm pretty sure Carnage 3:16 has a straight up planet killing weapon that gets given to PCs as a matter of course once they reach a high enough military rank.

[RazorChain]

In Gurps this is easy. Just take a power that does 1 point in damage, then you buy a huge area affect that covers most of the planet. Then you kill all insects and microbes with your power. The rest is just chain effect that would kill all life on the planet

[Wraith]

SLA Industries is an odd one, in that you can either scour all life from the face of a planet OR bring about the immediate end of the universe, but anything in between is tricky.

The tech-level is roughly equivalent to Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader in that you have spacecraft with weapons big enough - with sustained bombardment - to crack a planet's mantle, and the "Pilot" class does technically include the ability to control Voidships, thus making it accessible to PC's. Similarly, in theory any sufficiently powerful Ebb-user could theoretically calculate an "End The World" power, though the cost for and opposition against you would be unimaginably high.

The latter relies on the nature of the universe itself. If a PC is ever able to learn The Truth and disseminate it to enough other people, then there are only two realistic outcomes; firstly, you are essentially equipping everyone in The Matrix with Neo-level powers and letting them fight it out amongst themselves, which would inevitably see escalation far enough to see planets being used as billiard balls.
Alternatively, if enough people know The Truth, then belief will control reality and the current universe will end outright. Such is the nature of the SLA Industries universe.

I mean, between the machinations of Internal Affairs, and the Dark Finders, and Mr. Slayer, and the rest of the Company, good luck ever learning enough a tiny fragment of what is necessary to get that far..... But the possibility is there.

[Anonymouswizard]

This doesn't quite fit with the thread requirements (requires one house rule), but it works under the idea that if the relative acceleration is the same then the falling rules can be substituted for ramming rules when determining damage if the book does not supply another formula. Thankfully in Mongoose Traveller 1e the book does not.

So the falling rules are that everybody who falls 2m in 1g suffers 1d6 damage, no cap. Now the standard M-drive provides constant acceleration for no reaction mass as long as it's provided power. As it provides acceleration in standard earth gravities we can use this to work out the maximum damage we can deal to a planet.

So our ship, the battleship Overcompensator has jumped into the system one gigameter from it's target. It's small for a battleship, only 2000 displacement tons, but as it only has to dedicate 685 tons to carry it's crew of 100 (a lot's automated), we can assume that after weapons we have space for extra vehicles. In this case we are dedicating a fifth of the ship (400dtons) to planet killer missiles (which, due to being designed as small craft, do not count as weapons).

As all we need to do is fly at the planet and rely on our mass being large enough we can dispense with a lot of stuff. All we need is an M-drive, a power plant, and a computerised station to guide it. So we take a 10 dton hull, for 1MCr, stuff in a 1.5dt drone brain for 10MCr, a 3dt gravatic M-drive for 6MCr, and a 2.7dt fusion power plant for 5.5MCr. So we have a 10 dton hull with the components taking up 7.2dtons, giving use a little under one month of power plant usage if we fully fuel it, for the low cost of 22.5MCr plus fuel. They accelerate at 12g.

I'm not interested in working out the maximum 'falling distance' of our craft, especially as it ends up with a final velocity of over five megametres per second if we let it accelerate for one week (I think c is roughly 300 megametres per second, so we're hitting relativistic speeds here). More than enough for each of our 40 to smash into a planet and deal 6d6 damage for every metre travelled, assuming they're not shot down. Which is about one billion d6s worth of damage on the personal scale in this specific scenario, if that's not enough to crack the planet open it's enough to decimate the surface. Ideally you'd launch them from at least two-thirds of their maximum range so they hit for more damage while being difficult to intercept when they arrive (and we've got a fully functional drone, this missiles will be making semi-random course changes to avoid defensive fire).

In Traveller ships get into 50,000 dtons and above, although generally not PC-usable ones. However this is the size of a launch/lifeboat, anything bigger than a scoutship can mount at least one by sacrificing some cargo space.

The way to solve this is to use reaction drives, which have prohibitive reaction mass requirements limiting most ships to less than a day of acceleration. Still bad, but not as bad.

The moral of the story, any system that gives the players an interplanetary vessel has already given them a way to kill all life on a planet if they can find enough fuel (which most sf systems don't bother to track, making it easy to kill a planet with lifeboats).

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're talking 3.5, there's a handbook for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227513-Destroying-the-world-as-we-know-it-a-Handbook), because of course there is.

Mutants and Mastermins 3e has plenty of ways to screw everything up, though-- as with probably anything of this magnitude-- they fall under "probably RAW but the DM would say no." For example, applying the Area modifier 21 times lets you encompass the entire planet with a single power. As a default starting character, you could have, oh, Burst Area 21 Damage 7; triggering that just once would kill virtually everyone on the planet, and severely mess up most structures. Enhanced Strength 76 (Limited to Lifting) + Flight 26 + Immunity 10 (Environmental) would let you push the earth into the sun inside of an hour.

There's also an official "how to destroy the earth" sidepar in one of the Gadget Guides, which pegs the Earth as a single object with Toughness 35, and suggests that any attack will need to hit its entire mantle at once-- 13 or 14 ranks of Burst Area. Since we don't exactly need to hit, our starting character can trade off all the way to something like Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, which-- as per the Affects Objects rules-- will automatically work on the targetted object to its maximum degree of success. The Earth is now only at Toughness 15; at Damage 10, it'll take no more than a few minutes to blast its Toughness down to the point where it fails a check by 3 or more degrees and is destroyed. If we throw a flaw like Distracting on both powers, we can fit both on a default starting character as well (130 points for Burst Area 13 Damage 10, Distracting; 10 points for Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, Distracting; figure another couple points for Immunities (own powers, environmental heat, the "earth" damage descriptor, suffocation-- that's only 6).

[Anonymouswizard]

There's also an official "how to destroy the earth" sidepar in one of the Gadget Guides, which pegs the Earth as a single object with Toughness 35, and suggests that any attack will need to hit its entire mantle at once-- 13 or 14 ranks of Burst Area. Since we don't exactly need to hit, our starting character can trade off all the way to something like Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, which-- as per the Affects Objects rules-- will automatically work on the targetted object to its maximum degree of success. The Earth is now only at Toughness 15; at Damage 10, it'll take no more than a few minutes to blast its Toughness down to the point where it fails a check by 3 or more degrees and is destroyed. If we throw a flaw like Distracting on both powers, we can fit both on a default starting character as well (130 points for Burst Area Damage 13, Distracting; 10 points for Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, Distracting; figure another couple points for Immunities (own powers, environmental heat, the "earth" damage descriptor, suffocation-- that's only 6).

Assuming you're PL10 you can't have an area damage power higher than 10. The tradeoff rules limit accuracy and damage to twice your PL, or if you don't have to roll to it (i.e. they get to save versus the rank+10 to dodge) you have a limit of PL (http://www.d20herosrd.com/character-creation/#power-level). Now I'm not 100% certain that my interpretation is correct, but I find it ends up balanced using that ruling.

Therefore Burst Area Damage 10, Distracting (130)+Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, Distracting (10)+Immunity 16 (own powers, life support, earth damage descriptor), Noticeable (8) + Deception 20 ranks (10) = 158PP. Bit over the starting points, but you can destroy the planet, survive the aftermath, and convince the majority of people in the galaxy it wasn't you. Also, take 4 ranks of equipment, take a medium sized vehicle, slap on up to Flight 7, Space Travel 2, and Feature (remote control), plus whatever else you want, and once you're finished with the solar system you can move onto another one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Assuming you're PL10 you can't have an area damage power higher than 10. The tradeoff rules limit accuracy and damage to twice your PL, or if you don't have to roll to it (i.e. they get to save versus the rank+10 to dodge) you have a limit of PL (http://www.d20herosrd.com/character-creation/#power-level). Now I'm not 100% certain that my interpretation is correct, but I find it ends up balanced using that ruling.

Therefore Burst Area Damage 10, Distracting (130)+Weaken Toughness 20, Affects Only Objects, Distracting (10)+Immunity 16 (own powers, life support, earth damage descriptor), Noticeable (8) + Deception 20 ranks (10) = 158PP. Bit over the starting points, but you can destroy the planet, survive the aftermath, and convince the majority of people in the galaxy it wasn't you. Also, take 4 ranks of equipment, take a medium sized vehicle, slap on up to Flight 7, Space Travel 2, and Feature (remote control), plus whatever else you want, and once you're finished with the solar system you can move onto another one.
That was a typo, sorry; I mean Burst Area 13 Damage 10. Your interpretation is correct as far as I know.

Environment offers additional planet-killing options. ~21-22 ranks will let you cover the full planet; then you can do things like Intense Heat or Cold. Everyone on the planet makes a Fort save every minute, with a perpetually-increasing DC, and three failed saves equaling death. (And, arguably, you'd set basically everything on fire and/or freeze it solid, since they're defined as "edge of a volcano" or "extreme arctic blizzard.") Average mooks will be down in minutes, and in half an hour the check will be mathematically impossible for anyone without a specific immunity (DC 10+1/previous check; in 31 minutes it'll be DC 41, and impossible even with a natural 20 and a +20 Fort bonus). As a bonus, a 42 point power is well within the bounds of what a starting character can reasonably afford-- unlike the world-buster I mentioned above, you can still afford your standard attacks and defenses, something like Concealment 10 (All senses) to hide, that sort of thing. Heck, you can even make the power Subtle 2 and Insidious, so no-one realizes what's happening until they keel over.

[Lord Torath]

In Gurps this is easy. Just take a power that does 1 point in damage, then you buy a huge area affect that covers most of the planet. Then you kill all insects and microbes with your power. The rest is just chain effect that would kill all life on the planetThis will have a pretty detrimental effect, particularly since most of our oxygen (as I understand it) comes from plankton living in the ocean. But many plants would be unaffected. Anything that doesn't rely on small creatures to pollinate will be fine. Most of our grains rely on the wind for pollination. Many trees do as well. Aspen trees spread through underground root extensions that then sprout new trees that are still connected to the old one, resulting in a single organism with millions of trees. In fact, killing all the pine bark beetles will have a beneficial effect on the pine forests. Ferns and similar plants will see a resurgence. Fungi spread via spores, so they don't care about pollinators at all. Most of our fruit trees will die out, though, as will our flowering vegetables. Those pollinated by large creatures (bats, etc.) will be fine, assuming their pollinators' stomachs can still process what they get from the flowers (see the next paragraph about gut bacteria).

Can this spell target creatures living inside of other creatures? If yes, then everyone's gut bacteria will be gone, and just about the entire world will starve to death in short order. But if not, the bacteria everyone poops out will find themselves in an environment free from competition, and I expect within a few million bacterial generations we'll have the microbial biosphere restored. How much of the macro-fauna will still be alive at that point, I don't know. Assuming there's still enough oxygen to breathe, many plant eaters will be relatively unaffected, as will be the carnivores that prey on them. Those that can survive on the least amount of oxygen will do the best, which means slow metabolisms win out over fast ones. Cue the Rise of the Reptiles! As animals that need higher oxygen die off, the total demand for oxygen will lessen, which will slow the rate the O2 concentration falls.

The oceans will be the hardest hit, as almost every creature living in them is part of a food chain that starts from the microbes we killed off with your spell. But not everything. Large seaweeds like Kelp should be fine, as will anything that feeds exclusively off them. So it's not really the Life Destroyer advertised.

[Arbane]

In Gurps this is easy. Just take a power that does 1 point in damage, then you buy a huge area affect that covers most of the planet. Then you kill all insects and microbes with your power. The rest is just chain effect that would kill all life on the planet

One small part of one little planet? You are like little baby. Watch this. (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=239055) (53 points to kill EVERYTHING in the universe.)

Does it have to actually destroy the planet, or just all life on it? Because I'm shocked if I'm the first one to mention D&D's famous Shadowpocalypse.

And the rulebook for Wild Talents specifically mentions how easy it would be to make someone with the superpower of putting out the sun, then politely asks players not to do that.

Like Chuubo's, there's a fair number of Nobilis characters would could destroy Earth with relatively little trouble - until their Superiors noticed what they did, at which point the trouble would be quite emphatic.

In Exalted, it's _slightly_ beyond normal PC abilities to create the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick by linking together several ridiculously overpowered Essence 6 Charms and kill every living thing in the world by hitting them into nonexistence simultaneously.

In Call of Cthulhu, it is possible for a PC to summon Azathoth.

[rferries]

Acquire a Sphere of Annihilation and send it to the planet's core; it'll take ages but eventually the planet will lose sufficient mass to disrupt life on the surface.

Alternatively, use create greate undead to bring about a spectre-apocalypse. Once you've built a sufficient army there won't be enough clerics of sufficient level to stop you.

[JAL_1138]

Surprised nobody's mentioned the 5e Simulacrum+Wish shenanigans. Since using Wish to duplicate a spell of 8th-level or lower isn't up for interpretation and isn't subject to backfire effects by RAW, you can just create Simulacra until the entire planet is covered by so many of them it's no longer possible for other creatures to move (meaning most of those requiring food and water will eventually starve or die of thirst). (Or get an arbitrarily high number and have them all start using all their spell slots up on damage spells.)

By RAW the Wish+Simulacrum endless chain works.

[SimonMoon6]

In many point based games, characters can be built on any number of points. The GM is the one who decides how many points a character is built on. And, even if the GM doesn't provide a ridiculously high point value for the PCs to be built on, some point-based games have no limit on the number of disadvantages that a character may have (to thus build up the number of points he can spend on useful stuff). Plus, in games where we have things called "super powers", many times there are limitations that can be given to a power to make it less expensive. Thus, one could have an energy blast capable of destroying the planet, but it comes with limitations like "only on Tuesday," "only when it's raining", "only while wearing a hat", etc, all of which can reduce a power's cost to a tiny fraction of what it otherwise would cost. Sometimes, it is possible to build a sidekick or other henchman, which costs the PC a small amount of points to give the NPC a whole bunch of points. This is another way to give a character a more powerful ability than they can normally afford. "Me? Oh, I have no powers, just a sidekick/pet/wife who can destroy the planet."

It's really pretty simple.

For example, in Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG, which uses a logarithmic system, the Earth has a mass of about 75 units (called APs). A person with a 75 strength (or a 75 energy blast, etc) would be able to significantly damage the planet slightly over half the time. Punching the Earth repeatedly would eventually destroy the planet.

It's not too bizarre though. There is a DC comics character (named Mano) who destroyed his home planet with one use of his disintegration power.

[ImNotTrevor]

Lets see if any of the systems I play would allow this by RAW. (I doubt it)

Stars Without Number does have large scale warships with the capacity to deal severe damage to most planets that are unprotected.

Apocalypse World.... that already happened. Moot point.

FATE depends on the scale. Sometimes, sure. Most of the time, hell no.

Blades in the Dark: Find a way to turn off the Lightning Barriers and you end the biggest city/empire in one fell swoop. There's other places where similar processes could be done. You would likely die, too, but it could be done.

Soooo... kinda? Most games I play have a set scale, and aren't on the planetbusting end.

[Tinkerer]

Surprised nobody's mentioned the 5e Simulacrum+Wish shenanigans. Since using Wish to duplicate a spell of 8th-level or lower isn't up for interpretation and isn't subject to backfire effects by RAW, you can just create Simulacra until the entire planet is covered by so many of them it's no longer possible for other creatures to move (meaning most of those requiring food and water will eventually starve or die of thirst). (Or get an arbitrarily high number and have them all start using all their spell slots up on damage spells.)

Not so sure on this one. You use your Wish to create the Simulcra so it's created without the Wish spell. Which stops the exponential growth that this combo used to be based on. So you can only create 1 per day unless there is something I'm not familiar with.

And after consulting with the WOTC guidelines RAW the Metabreath feat Enlarge Breath definitely does not stack due to examples never being considered RAW.

[Lord Torath]

Acquire a Sphere of Annihilation and send it to the planet's core; it'll take ages but eventually the planet will lose sufficient mass to disrupt life on the surface.How long do you want to wait? If it takes over 3 billion years (and it will - see the math I did up the thread a bit about the Disintegrate-Force box), normal changes in the Sun as it ages will fry everything on Earth anyway.

1. The Sun will still be around for another 4-5 billion years, and won't expand into a Red Giant until pretty close to the end of its life. In the next 2-3 billion years, though, the slow increase in radiation it emits will sterilize the Earth.

[Tinkerer]

How long do you want to wait? If it takes over 3 billion years (and it will - see the math I did up the thread a bit about the Disintegrate-Force box), normal changes in the Sun as it ages will fry everything on Earth anyway.

1. The Sun will still be around for another 4-5 billion years, and won't expand into a Red Giant until pretty close to the end of its life. In the next 2-3 billion years, though, the slow increase in radiation it emits will sterilize the Earth.

I marked this one down under plans which will not work at the top. In addition to the time constraint there is also the fact that it is easily tracked down and disrupted. However I think that time scale which you are looking at is to eat the earth, it would probably make an impact much sooner than that. Unfortunately that impact would be easily healed by divine intervention.

[Lord Torath]

I marked this one down under plans which will not work at the top. In addition to the time constraint there is also the fact that it is easily tracked down and disrupted. However I think that time scale which you are looking at is to eat the earth, it would probably make an impact much sooner than that. Unfortunately that impact would be easily healed by divine intervention.It's on the order of a trillion years (1012) to eat the entire Earth. Probably need to eat at least 1% of the Earth to have a noticeable effect, and that will still take on the order 10 billion years, which is still longer than the expected life of the planet.

[JAL_1138]

Not so sure on this one. You use your Wish to create the Simulcra so it's created without the Wish spell. Which stops the exponential growth that this combo used to be based on. So you can only create 1 per day unless there is something I'm not familiar with.

And after consulting with the WOTC guidelines RAW the Metabreath feat Enlarge Breath definitely does not stack due to examples never being considered RAW.

You, the original, never cast Wish at any point, and the Simulacra all Wish for a copy of you, the original caster, rather than for a copy of the previous Simulacrum in the chain.

You create the first Simulacrum by casting the 7th-level Simulacrum spell the normal way, with the snowman and the ruby and whatnot. That way, the first Simulacrum you create, and all the subsequent Simulacra of you, have a 9th-level spell slot to use Wish with.


(Also, worth noting that this won't work in Adventurers' League, since League places restrictions on what Simulacra can do and what you can use Wish to do. But it hasn't been officially errata'd by WotC, as far as I know, so it's still RAW.)

[Aran nu tasar]

Lets see if any of the systems I play would allow this by RAW. (I doubt it)
Blades in the Dark: Find a way to turn off the Lightning Barriers and you end the biggest city/empire in one fell swoop. There's other places where similar processes could be done. You would likely die, too, but it could be done.

My crew of smugglers actually did this, albeit the damage was confined to a single district, and able to be fixed by the Spirit Wardens over the course of a month or so. It was a good time.

In another game, the finale of the campaign was our Cult summoning That Which Hungers, a Forgotten God, who proceeded to devour the entire world. So I can confirm that you definitely can destroy the world in Blades. (Mechanically speaking, this takes the form of getting the GM to make a 'destroy the world' series of clocks, and then filling them. Simple as that.)


Apocalypse World.... that already happened. Moot point.

But if you wanted to do it again, for the fun of it...



When you go into your workspace and dedicate yourself to making a thing, or to getting
to the bottom of some ****, decide what and tell the MC. The MC will tell you “sure, no
problem, but…” and then 1 to 4 of the following:
• It’s going to take hours/days/weeks/months of work.
• First you’ll have to get/build/fix/figure out ______ .
• You’re going to need ______ to help you with it.
• It’s going to cost you a ****ton of jingle.
• The best you’ll be able to do is a crap version, weak and unreliable.
• It’s going to mean exposing yourself (plus colleagues) to serious danger.
• You’re going to have to add ______ to your workplace first.
• It’s going to take several/dozens/hundreds of tries.
• You’re going to have to take _______ apart to do it.
The MC might connect them all with “and,” or might throw in a merciful “or.”
Once you’ve accomplished the necessaries, you can go ahead and accomplish the thing
itself. The MC will stat it up, or spill, or whatever it calls for.

I imagine there would be a lot of "ands."

[Tinkerer]

You, the original, never cast Wish at any point, and the Simulacra all Wish for a copy of you, the original caster, rather than for a copy of the previous Simulacrum in the chain.

You create the first Simulacrum by casting the 7th-level Simulacrum spell the normal way, with the snowman and the ruby and whatnot. That way, the first Simulacrum you create, and all the subsequent Simulacra of you, have a 9th-level spell slot to use Wish with.

Ah, my mistake. Hmm, still pretty vulnerable due to the simulacrums needing to touch you in order to create more. Thus limiting you to about 10,000 per day. Which is pretty darn good (and assuming you have a decent size party you could extend this to about 100,000 per day or so). Hmm, I'm going to keep this one in the maybe pile. I can see it being too easy to disrupt to really put it in the guarantee section but it definitely might work.

And !Trevor when I talk about the end of the world, I'm really talking about the end of the world. Apocalypse World was an insufficient apocalypse. Far too many animals, plant life, and humans survived. Blades in the Dark is a... curious example. Don't suppose they mention how many cities there are? Also in every piece of literature that I've seen they always say "the major cities" have the lightning barriers. Does this imply that there are smaller cities which don't and somehow survive? I don't have enough experience there to really judge.

[JAL_1138]

Ah, my mistake. Hmm, still pretty vulnerable due to the simulacrums needing to touch you in order to create more. Thus limiting you to about 10,000 per day. Which is pretty darn good (and assuming you have a decent size party you could extend this to about 100,000 per day or so). Hmm, I'm going to keep this one in the maybe pile. I can see it being too easy to disrupt to really put it in the guarantee section but it definitely might work.


They may not need to touch you. Wish contains the following text: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." (Emphasis mine).

So since it says "you don't need to meet any requirements," not just "you don't need to use any VSM components," the creature doesn't need to be in range for the duration of the casting, by RAW.

(Also, grammatically, Simulacrum is written such that it's unclear whether it's the duplicate or the creature that needs to be in range for the casting time—the sentence structure could support either reading and be grammatically sound. RAI is presumably the creature; RAW it could technically be either one. No errata on it yet as far as I'm aware.)

[rferries]

How long do you want to wait? If it takes over 3 billion years (and it will - see the math I did up the thread a bit about the Disintegrate-Force box), normal changes in the Sun as it ages will fry everything on Earth anyway.

1. The Sun will still be around for another 4-5 billion years, and won't expand into a Red Giant until pretty close to the end of its life. In the next 2-3 billion years, though, the slow increase in radiation it emits will sterilize the Earth.

Unlike a disintegrate trap there's no upper limit on how much matter a sphere can destroy -arguably the pressure at the core would allow the sphere to rapidly consume matter much faster than the trap,as all the molten rock rushes in to be consumed. Also are we sure that a fantasy world's sun has a lifespan? (An admittedly silly quibble, given that I'm relying on physics/geology for the sphere to work at the core :D).


I marked this one down under plans which will not work at the top. In addition to the time constraint there is also the fact that it is easily tracked down and disrupted. However I think that time scale which you are looking at is to eat the earth, it would probably make an impact much sooner than that. Unfortunately that impact would be easily healed by divine intervention.

Whoops, missed that note. I take issue with the tracking it down and disrupting it, though - no way to survive at the core and manipulate the sphere at the same time unless you're a deity.

In any case, an epic spell of some sort would also do the trick. There's already a sample spell for blotting out the sun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/eclipse.htm); add in more XP costs, backlash damage (presumably the caster doesn't mind dying if they take the world with them), etc and you could get a permanent disc large enough (or close enough to the sun) to fully and permanently eclipse the planet. Similarly, a planet-wide energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/energy.htm)emanation doing even sonic or acid damage would be enough to destroy the planet (stone only has hardness 8) in a few minutes, though most living things would die much sooner.

[Tinkerer]

They may not need to touch you. Wish contains the following text: "The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." (Emphasis mine).

So since it says "you don't need to meet any requirements," not just "you don't need to use any VSM components," the creature doesn't need to be in range for the duration of the casting, by RAW.

(Also, grammatically, Simulacrum is written such that it's unclear whether it's the duplicate or the creature that needs to be in range for the casting time—the sentence structure could support either reading and be grammatically sound. RAI is presumably the creature; RAW it could technically be either one. No errata on it yet as far as I'm aware.)

Huh, I was always under the assumption that range was a parameter rather than a requirement due to the fact that you can still cast the spell regardless of if the target is in range or not thus it is not a requirement and not removed. Actually looking around a bit I can't find anyone who agrees with you on that interpretation (I didn't look very hard but I looked at about a dozen sources). There was a bit of a problem in my math though and the numbers should be increased by about 25%.

I'm actually going to move this one up to the guaranteed world ender assuming you are working in a group. It seems a little slow for one person but if you're in a 10 person wizard party never mind getting enough to crowd out the rest of the earth, start sending out... I don't know some Sunbursts or something. I'll need to do more math on this.


Unlike a disintegrate trap there's no upper limit on how much matter a sphere can destroy -arguably the pressure at the core would allow the sphere to rapidly consume matter much faster than the trap,as all the molten rock rushes in to be consumed. Also are we sure that a fantasy world's sun has a lifespan? (An admittedly silly quibble, given that I'm relying on physics/geology for the sphere to work at the core :D).

Whoops, missed that note. I take issue with the tracking it down and disrupting it, though - no way to survive at the core and manipulate the sphere at the same time unless you're a deity.

In any case, an epic spell of some sort would also do the trick. *snip*

That's a good point on the pressure there, that would shorten the time frame considerably. There are numerous ways to survive at the core and end the sphere in most editions though. Not to mention the possibility of a deity getting involved (I mean Miracle is a spell in most editions). Epic spells in 3.X/PF specifically require GM fiat so they are unfortunately off the table.

[JAL_1138]

Huh, I was always under the assumption that range was a parameter rather than a requirement due to the fact that you can still cast the spell regardless of if the target is in range or not thus it is not a requirement and not removed. Actually looking around a bit I can't find anyone who agrees with you on that interpretation (I didn't look very hard but I looked at about a dozen sources). There was a bit of a problem in my math though and the numbers should be increased by about 25%.

I'm actually going to move this one up to the guaranteed world ender assuming you are working in a group. It seems a little slow for one person but if you're in a 10 person wizard party never mind getting enough to crowd out the rest of the earth, start sending out... I don't know some Sunbursts or something. I'll need to do more math on this.



That's a good point on the pressure there, that would shorten the time frame considerably. There are numerous ways to survive at the core and end the sphere in most editions though. Not to mention the possibility of a deity getting involved (I mean Miracle is a spell in most editions). Epic spells in 3.X/PF specifically require GM fiat so they are unfortunately off the table.

It's a stretch, admittedly. Hence why I said "may not." But "requirement" doesn't have a specific game definition anywhere in the PHB as far as I'm aware, unlike for example "components," so as written it's unclear how far that extends or what counts as a "requirement."

And there's still the question of whether it's the creature or the duplicate that needs to be in range for the casting duration—grammatically it's possible to read it as "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell" or (almost certainly the RAI) "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell." Both work.

This is reeeeeally pedantic on my part, but pedantry is the soul of RAW shenanigans.

[Tinkerer]

It's a stretch, admittedly. Hence why I said "may not." But "requirement" doesn't have a specific game definition anywhere in the PHB as far as I'm aware, unlike for example "components," so as written it's unclear how far that extends or what counts as a "requirement."

And there's still the question of whether it's the creature or the duplicate that needs to be in range for the casting duration—grammatically it's possible to read it as "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell" or (almost certainly the RAI) "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell." Both work.

This is reeeeeally pedantic on my part, but pedantry is the soul of RAW shenanigans.

Oh I definitely agree on pedantry but "requirement" has an English language definition which seems to work just fine. If we were counting that as the case then if we wanted to destroy the world we could just go with a wished burning hands and ignore the max range there. No need for simulacrum shenanigans.

I don't know about both of the sentence interpretations working. I think you need some punctuation in there in order to read it as the first option. Just my 2cp I can check with an English professor later if need be.

The really curious thing about the Simulacrum spell which I never noticed before is that it requires you to take 12 hours to shape a ice or snow duplicate of someone/something... while never taking one of your hands off them. I don't know if you've ever tried to make a one handed snowman before but it's not easy. And for things some people recommend like making a giant beast simulacrum, well just forget about that.

[Lord Torath]

That's a good point on the pressure there, that would shorten the time frame considerably. There are numerous ways to survive at the core and end the sphere in most editions though. Not to mention the possibility of a deity getting involved (I mean Miracle is a spell in most editions). Epic spells in 3.X/PF specifically require GM fiat so they are unfortunately off the table.A Sphere of Annihilation (at least in 2E) has a 2' diameter, which is a volume of 4.19 ft3, 1/240th the volume of the 10' x 10' x 10' disinte-box. Letting it clear 1000 cubic feet per six-second round is already 240 times faster destruction (per volume) than the disinte-box. If you want, we could increase that by a factor of 10. It's now devouring 400 times its volume per second. Pretty quick, yes? But at that rate, it will still take a billion years to eat just 1% of the Earth. When was the last time you played in a campaign that covered a billion years? How about even just a million years? 1000 years? Seriously, if you want to destroy the planet, this isn't the way.

[Tinkerer]

A Sphere of Annihilation (at least in 2E) has a 2' diameter, which is a volume of 4.19 ft3, 1/240th the volume of the 10' x 10' x 10' disinte-box. Letting it clear 1000 cubic feet per six-second round is already 240 times faster destruction (per volume) than the disinte-box. If you want, we could increase that by a factor of 10. It's now devouring 400 times its volume per second. Pretty quick, yes? But at that rate, it will still take a billion years to eat just 1% of the Earth. When was the last time you played in a campaign that covered a billion years? How about even just a million years? 1000 years? Seriously, if you want to destroy the planet, this isn't the way.

Oh! Oh! I've done a thousand years a few times :smallsmile:

Your math does seem off though. I would need to sit down with a good bottle of wine and some paper to try and figure out the flow rate for terminal velocity entering a point from 360 degrees. Because there is no resistance, it just stops existing. 400 times it's volume/second seems pretty low for such an equation. But all that I said was that it would considerably lower the time frame, not that it was feasible.

Besides it's kinda a moot point considering it's an artifact and artifacts always require GM fiat.

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh! Oh! I've done a thousand years a few times :smallsmile:

Your math does seem off though. I would need to sit down with a good bottle of wine and some paper to try and figure out the flow rate for terminal velocity entering a point from 360 degrees. Because there is no resistance, it just stops existing. 400 times it's volume/second seems pretty low for such an equation. But all that I said was that it would considerably lower the time frame, not that it was feasible.

Besides it's kinda a moot point considering it's an artifact and artifacts always require GM fiat.

Keep in mind that even a real black hole has a limit on how much it can cram down per second.

[rferries]

A Sphere of Annihilation (at least in 2E) has a 2' diameter, which is a volume of 4.19 ft3, 1/240th the volume of the 10' x 10' x 10' disinte-box. Letting it clear 1000 cubic feet per six-second round is already 240 times faster destruction (per volume) than the disinte-box. If you want, we could increase that by a factor of 10. It's now devouring 400 times its volume per second. Pretty quick, yes? But at that rate, it will still take a billion years to eat just 1% of the Earth. When was the last time you played in a campaign that covered a billion years? How about even just a million years? 1000 years? Seriously, if you want to destroy the planet, this isn't the way.

The timeframe wasn't specified in the original post (although the sphere of annihilation was ruled out, in my defense that was way at the bottom of the post). Lichdom is easy enough to acquire, too.

A better point is that artifacts require DM fiat, though if you simply assume they exist a high-level wizard should be able to obtain one. Alternatively, a PC could make an arrangement with one or more umbral blots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) (especially ones advanced to Gargantuan size) to achieve even faster effects than a standard sphere.

[Tinkerer]

The timeframe wasn't specified in the original post (although the sphere of annihilation was ruled out, in my defense that was way at the bottom of the post). Lichdom is easy enough to acquire, too.

A better point is that artifacts require DM fiat, though if you simply assume they exist a high-level wizard should be able to obtain one. Alternatively, a PC could make an arrangement with one or more umbral blots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) (especially ones advanced to Gargantuan size) to achieve even faster effects than a standard sphere.

Well on a long enough timeline the survival rate of every planet drops to zero. I guess one could count achieving immortality and waiting to be one of the methods... screw it I'm gonna add it :smallwink: EDIT: I'm still going to count the sphere as not working though because of how easy it is to disrupt.

Now the umbral blot is a nightmare of rules. Really the heat and the pressure should kill it although I suppose one could enchant one for such a purpose. Wow, I really dislike that creature because it's far too easy to kill for what it is.

[Yuki Akuma]

In Unknown Armies, once three-hundred and thirty-two mortals ascend to the Invisible Clergy, the First Man will ascend to the three-hundred and thirty-third seat and the universe will end.

And then immediately be remade, but, y'know.

So to end the world you just need to convince enough people to accept a bunch of new Archetypes, along with getting individual people to embrace said Archetypes so completely that they semi-retroactively ascend to becoming the anthropomorphic personifications of those Archetypes. You probably don't even need to do it more than a hundred times, as there's already a bunch of chairs filled.

You could probably achieve this using an Avatar of the Demagogue and some way of getting him on lots of televisions. Maybe a custom Videomancer spell. Or a lot of money.

[rferries]

Well on a long enough timeline the survival rate of every planet drops to zero. I guess one could count achieving immortality and waiting to be one of the methods... screw it I'm gonna add it :smallwink: EDIT: I'm still going to count the sphere as not working though because of how easy it is to disrupt.

Now the umbral blot is a nightmare of rules. Really the heat and the pressure should kill it although I suppose one could enchant one for such a purpose. Wow, I really dislike that creature because it's far too easy to kill for what it is.

Immersion in lava deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round (average 70). An umbral blot already has fire resistance 30 and fast healing 10, so one advanced to Gargantuan size needs only to take the Fast Healing and/or Energy Resistance feats to survive comfortably in the core. Arguably though, the blot doesn't take any damage from the lava as lava is an unattended object that automatically fails its save against the disintegrating touch. I'm surprised you think it's easy to deal with though!

[Knaight]

Immersion in lava deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round (average 70). An umbral blot already has fire resistance 30 and fast healing 10, so one advanced to Gargantuan size needs only to take the Fast Healing and/or Energy Resistance feats to survive comfortably in the core. Arguably though, the blot doesn't take any damage from the lava as lava is an unattended object that automatically fails its save against the disintegrating touch. I'm surprised you think it's easy to deal with though!

There's nothing in the core that could reasonably be called lava, and it's the pressure more than anything that makes the core dangerous. There's no explicit rules for that, but it doesn't mean that immersion in lava can be subbed in.

[rferries]

There's nothing in the core that could reasonably be called lava, and it's the pressure more than anything that makes the core dangerous. There's no explicit rules for that, but it doesn't mean that immersion in lava can be subbed in.

Lava immersion. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects)

Burial in an avalanche is 1d6 nonlethal/minute (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#avalanchesCr7), same for cave-ins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#caveInsAndCollapsesCr8); even assuming an arbitrarily high amount of nonlethal damage per minute at the core an umbral blot is a construct so it's immune to nonlethal. I suppose you could rule it as pressure damage from falling/thrown objects as well but that caps out at 20d6 so it's just a question of taking the Fast Healing feat a few more times.

And of course, if you want to be pedantic you can say that in the absence of specific rules for pressure damage at the core, there isn't any such damage by RAW :D

[Kane0]

Heh, reminds me of something (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUWU8CWI6g0). I suppose you could replicate this with sufficiently numerous, long lasting or large Arcane Gate, Gate or similar spells or effect targeting any 'Void' location.

[Lord Torath]

Lava immersion. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects)

Burial in an avalanche is 1d6 nonlethal/minute (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#avalanchesCr7), same for cave-ins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#caveInsAndCollapsesCr8); even assuming an arbitrarily high amount of nonlethal damage per minute at the core an umbral blot is a construct so it's immune to nonlethal. I suppose you could rule it as pressure damage from falling/thrown objects as well but that caps out at 20d6 so it's just a question of taking the Fast Healing feat a few more times.

And of course, if you want to be pedantic you can say that in the absence of specific rules for pressure damage at the core, there isn't any such damage by RAW :DAre there rules for having a 50-ton block of stone fall on you? In the 2E PHB this is called "Inescapable Death" (p 106, 1st printing) At the core, you have much more than just 50 tons pressing down on you. There aren't detailed rules for it, because the rule is "you're dead."

Edit: Also, how dense is your big monster? The density of the core is between 9.9 and 13 g/cm3. Most living things have a density of around 1 g/cm3. There's going to be an enormous buoyant force expelling your big monster from the core (This is also what's wrong with the end of The Lord of the Rings and Crystal's death scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html). Lava has an average density of 3 g/cm3, and is incredibly viscous (no, not vicious, viscous). You don't sink into lava, you burn up on top of it. Well, okay, about a third of your volume would slowly sink into lava, leaving the upper two-thirds above the surface. But lava is viscous, so it would be a slow sinking).

[rferries]

Are there rules for having a 50-ton block of stone fall on you? In the 2E PHB this is called "Inescapable Death" (p 106, 1st printing) At the core, you have much more than just 50 tons pressing down on you. There aren't detailed rules for it, because the rule is "you're dead."

Edit: Also, how dense is your big monster? The density of the core is between 9.9 and 13 g/cm3. Most living things have a density of around 1 g/cm3. There's going to be an enormous buoyant force expelling your big monster from the core (This is also what's wrong with the end of The Lord of the Rings and Crystal's death scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html). Lava has an average density of 3 g/cm3, and is incredibly viscous (no, not vicious, viscous). You don't sink into lava, you burn up on top of it. Well, okay, about a third of your volume would slowly sink into lava, leaving the upper two-thirds above the surface. But lava is viscous, so it would be a slow sinking).

Umbral Blots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm) are 3.5 so they don't fear inescapable death :D (assuming it wasn't ported over, I only have access to the SRD right now, however I'm pretty sure they actually translated your inescapable death into the aforementioned avalanche/burial). The closest equivalent in 3.5 is death from massive damage, but as constructs Umbral Blots are immune to that too (the Fortitude save, at least).

As a "hovering sphere of absolute void", an umbral blot has no quantifiable density. Even if it were a "solid" object it arguably couldn't be buffeted away by currents, as the lava is disintegrated as soon as it makes contact.

[Tinkerer]

Immersion in lava deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round (average 70). An umbral blot already has fire resistance 30 and fast healing 10, so one advanced to Gargantuan size needs only to take the Fast Healing and/or Energy Resistance feats to survive comfortably in the core. Arguably though, the blot doesn't take any damage from the lava as lava is an unattended object that automatically fails its save against the disintegrating touch. I'm surprised you think it's easy to deal with though!

Actually you would be looking at damage for being on the surface of the sun rather than lava (slightly hotter than the surface of the sun actually). Also the center would be solid metal rather than lava.

And I never said it was easy to deal with, just easier than I would expect considering what it is.

[rferries]

Actually you would be looking at damage for being on the surface of the sun rather than lava (slightly hotter than the surface of the sun actually). Also the center would be solid metal rather than lava.

And I never said it was easy to deal with, just easier than I would expect considering what it is.

Fine, cast mantle of the fiery spirit (https://dndtools.net/spells/sandstorm--85/mantle-of-the-fiery-spirit--3175/) on the blot before you send it down - permanently immune to fire now.

It doesn't matter if the centre is solid or liquid, the blot destroys them both (and at that pressure the core will constantly be collapsing in on the blot, whether it's solid or liquid).

Yes my apologies, I misspoke. I meant I'm surprised that you think it's easier to deal with than a monster of its CR; apart from epic spells I can't think of any attack that can reliably eliminate a blot.

[Lord Torath]

Fine, cast mantle of the fiery spirit (https://dndtools.net/spells/sandstorm--85/mantle-of-the-fiery-spirit--3175/) on the blot before you send it down - permanently immune to fire now.Great! Except the sun's not on fire. How does Mantle of the Fiery Spirit fare against EM radiation? (You thought the Van Allen Radiation Belts were bad; they've got nothing on what you get on the surface of the sun!) :smallbiggrin:

Of course, if you're using Spelljammer cosmology, then you've got nothing to worry about, as the sun is just a Fire body, and radiation poisoning/burns are not a thing.

But if you're planning on this Umbral Blot eating the sun... Well, that's probably going to take orders of magnitude more time than the SoA in the Core trick.

[rferries]

Great! Except the sun's not on fire. How does Mantle of the Fiery Spirit fare against EM radiation? (You thought the Van Allen Radiation Belts were bad; they've got nothing on what you get on the surface of the sun!) :smallbiggrin:

Of course, if you're using Spelljammer cosmology, then you've got nothing to worry about, as the sun is just a Fire body, and radiation poisoning/burns are not a thing.

But if you're planning on this Umbral Blot eating the sun... Well, that's probably going to take orders of magnitude more time than the SoA in the Core trick.

As you say re: Spelljammer, and as per nailed to the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm), there are no dangers from radiation beyond simple heat damage, so that's covered. Presumably if there were additional radiation effects they would take the form of Constitution damage, which won't hurt a blot.

No, I don't intend for it to eat the sun haha! Someone else pointed out that the planet's core is as hot as the surface of the sun, so I mentioned giving the blot fire immunity to obviate the issue.

[rferries]

But it occurs to me that you've just provided another solution! And a much faster one too!

1) Cast mantle of fire on yourself.

2) Acquire a patch of brown mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi).

3) Greater teleport to the sun, and let the mold loose.

4) Kick back and relax! Even if the DM rules that the mold only progresses laterally (i.e. doesn't eat into the sun itself), it'll cover the sun entirely at a geometric rate. Almost all life on the planet will die shortly from the loss of sunlight. And if the DM does rule that the mold devours the sun, supernova ahoy!

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

The first one that came to mind was Star Wars.

I'm going to ignore the awful Disney reboot, because I'm unaware of any Star Wars RPG that covers it. I am not going to speak about the D6 West End Games version, because I do not know it well. I do not it was the bases, and meshed in very finely with the official cannon, and everything published was cannon, so I would be unable to see a system where high level players could not wipe out worlds.

You absolutely have the ability to destroy worlds by the time you hit the teens in D20. There is no epic levels. 3.5 & 4E versions. You would have to by Lore. Sith Lords could literally make suns go Nova with the force. Reputation maters in Star Wars, to the point it if codified in the rules.

Satal & Aleema Keto were only level 6 & 7. They conquered a whole star system. Naga Sadow, who was so powerful he nearly brought the galaxy under his control had the personal power to not only warp genetics, He was able to preserve his soul/spirit for more than 1000 years. He controlled fleets, he eradicated worlds. He sent a Binary sun NOVA to escape a Republic Fleet. He was level 15 or less.

Ulic Qel-Droma did the same, and destroyed the Jedi Fortress world of Ossus by setting a Sun Nova. He killed his brother, and in grief did not fight Nomi SunRider when she game....she stripped him of his force powers, in what is in my opinion one of the greatest personal violations possible, but within the power of a Jedi. Level 16

Exar Kun divested himself of his physical body at level 17, with an immortal spirit to enable him to take vengeance on the Jedi.

Kyp Durron was Maybe level 6 when he defeated Master SkyWalker, severed his spirit from his body destroyed an Imperial system.

The Emperor was only level 19.

Han Solo was just a Kid at the Imperial Academy when his room mate accidentally blew the face off the moon orbiting the world. Prank gone wrong. Room mate was a Noble. Called in a favor. To much explosives....he just wanted to deface a imperial symbol carved into the moon.

The Yuzzhan Vong used engines that created small black holes. Put one of them on a planet, pointed up at a moon orbiting overhead....


Star Wars exemplifies, especially in the forces users, Xykon's Statement that "Power is Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)"

Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force

[rferries]

The first one that came to mind was Star Wars.

I'm going to ignore the awful Disney reboot, because I'm unaware of any Star Wars RPG that covers it. I am not going to speak about the D6 West End Games version, because I do not know it well. I do not it was the bases, and meshed in very finely with the official cannon, and everything published was cannon, so I would be unable to see a system where high level players could not wipe out worlds.

You absolutely have the ability to destroy worlds by the time you hit the teens in D20. There is no epic levels. 3.5 & 4E versions. You would have to by Lore. Sith Lords could literally make suns go Nova with the force. Reputation maters in Star Wars, to the point it if codified in the rules.

Satal & Aleema Keto were only level 6 & 7. They conquered a whole star system. Naga Sadow, who was so powerful he nearly brought the galaxy under his control had the personal power to not only warp genetics, He was able to preserve his soul/spirit for more than 1000 years. He controlled fleets, he eradicated worlds. He sent a Binary sun NOVA to escape a Republic Fleet. He was level 15 or less.

Ulic Qel-Droma did the same, and destroyed the Jedi Fortress world of Ossus by setting a Sun Nova. He killed his brother, and in grief did not fight Nomi SunRider when she game....she stripped him of his force powers, in what is in my opinion one of the greatest personal violations possible, but within the power of a Jedi. Level 16

Exar Kun divested himself of his physical body at level 17, with an immortal spirit to enable him to take vengeance on the Jedi.

Kyp Durron was Maybe level 6 when he defeated Master SkyWalker, severed his spirit from his body destroyed an Imperial system.

The Emperor was only level 19.

Han Solo was just a Kid at the Imperial Academy when his room mate accidentally blew the face off the moon orbiting the world. Prank gone wrong. Room mate was a Noble. Called in a favor. To much explosives....he just wanted to deface a imperial symbol carved into the moon.

The Yuzzhan Vong used engines that created small black holes. Put one of them on a planet, pointed up at a moon orbiting overhead....


Star Wars exemplifies, especially in the forces users, Xykon's Statement that "Power is Power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)"

Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force

That's definitely all true, but I think for this thread we have to point out specific game mechanics (spells, feats, force powers, etc.).

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

That's definitely all true, but I think for this thread we have to point out specific game mechanics (spells, feats, force powers, etc.).

Any mid size capitol ship could do it. Move object to shift the suns core. Force Storms. Heck, a hutt crime lord build a death star laser.


The ability to do it in Star Wars is simply not questioned. It would be easy and any mid level player could, especially if a Noble, a Jedi, or took the Sith Lord or Crime Lord prestige Classes.

[Friv]

But it occurs to me that you've just provided another solution! And a much faster one too!

1) Cast mantle of fire on yourself.

2) Acquire a patch of brown mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi).

3) Greater teleport to the sun, and let the mold loose.

4) Kick back and relax! Even if the DM rules that the mold only progresses laterally (i.e. doesn't eat into the sun itself), it'll cover the sun entirely at a geometric rate. Almost all life on the planet will die shortly from the loss of sunlight. And if the DM does rule that the mold devours the sun, supernova ahoy!

I feel like that depends on whether nuclear radiation is considered to be "heat" for the purposes of brown mold (and, I guess, whether radiation exists in the setting in question). I would be pretty comfortable ruling that even as the mold starts to expand from heat, it is instantly destroyed by some combination of intense pressure, devastating cosmic rays, and lethal molecular reactions.

[Max_Killjoy]

I feel like that depends on whether nuclear radiation is considered to be "heat" for the purposes of brown mold (and, I guess, whether radiation exists in the setting in question). I would be pretty comfortable ruling that even as the mold starts to expand from heat, it is instantly destroyed by some combination of intense pressure, devastating cosmic rays, and lethal molecular reactions.

I'd be tempted to rule that there's a limit to how much heat brown mold can absorb before it's simply overwhelmed.

Plus, yeah, radiation, gravity, pressure, plasma chemistry, etc.


Alternatively, in a setting with wacky enough magic that the mold can handle that much heat... the sun god smites you and the mold for your raw impertinence.

[rferries]

I feel like that depends on whether nuclear radiation is considered to be "heat" for the purposes of brown mold (and, I guess, whether radiation exists in the setting in question). I would be pretty comfortable ruling that even as the mold starts to expand from heat, it is instantly destroyed by some combination of intense pressure, devastating cosmic rays, and lethal molecular reactions.

As per nailed to the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm), there are no dangers from radiation beyond simple heat damage, so that's covered. The mold is effectively converting heat damage into more mass through magical means.


I'd be tempted to rule that there's a limit to how much heat brown mold can absorb before it's simply overwhelmed.


Alternatively, in a setting with wacky enough magic that the mold can handle that much heat... the sun god smites you and the mold for your raw impertinence.

The point of this thread is to avoid arbitrary rulings and DM fiat - otherwise every suggestion anyone posts could be countered with "Your plan to destroy the planet automatically fails due to divine intervention."

(Sorry if I'm coming across as aggressive, I'm in too deep now :D)


Any mid size capitol ship could do it. Move object to shift the suns core. Force Storms. Heck, a hutt crime lord build a death star laser.

The ability to do it in Star Wars is simply not questioned. It would be easy and any mid level player could, especially if a Noble, a Jedi, or took the Sith Lord or Crime Lord prestige Classes.

Righto, just so long as those are all defined in-game (i.e. a PC's Force Powers can be used on that scale, a PC can purchase or craft a Death Star, etc).

[Friv]

As per nailed to the sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm), there are no dangers from radiation beyond simple heat damage, so that's covered. The mold is effectively converting heat damage into more mass through magical means.

Radiation damage from being in low orbit is a lot different from radiation damage from being on the surface of a fusion reaction. If you're just in orbit, it would take months of non-stop spacewalking to get a lethal dose of radiation. I can't find an exact amount of radiation that you would get standing on a sun, aside from a reference that astronauts attempting to fly to the Sun would die of radiation poisoning, through the protection of their space ship, long before they could reach a point to be cooked to death.

[rferries]

Fair enough, but in the absence of RAW radiation doesn't exist.

[Tinkerer]

Fair enough, but in the absence of RAW radiation doesn't exist.

Yep definitely true... However the moldpocalypse was covered for 3.5 in the linked thread :smalleek: Sorry. It was a different moldpocalypse though (using a volcano instead of the sun) so maybe I should add it. 3.5 is so well analyzed that there are literally dozens of ways to do it. Maybe I should start another section at the top just for additional methods on 3.5...

Oh wait, you can totally do that in 2nd as well can't you (I have to check, I play 2nd ed not run it normally).

In regards to starships destroying planets... It's a tricky situation. I add the starship superspeed battering ram to the top since it is quite reasonable that in a starship environment you'd be able to get your hands on something, but in terms of starships capable of ravaging the planet with weapons that sort of firepower in most systems seems to be a matter of GM fiat unless the system specifically rules otherwise. Sure it's doable... but it's also blockable. I've played Star Wars for years and I wouldn't call getting your hands on a Star Destroyer a normal Star Wars ability.

And yes on the Star Wars force examples I would need rules citations. Those could be NPC powers which we all know can run on different systems than the PC powers :smallwink:

[Lord Torath]

Yep definitely true... However the moldpocalypse was covered for 3.5 in the linked thread :smalleek: Sorry. It was a different moldpocalypse though (using a volcano instead of the sun) so maybe I should add it. 3.5 is so well analyzed that there are literally dozens of ways to do it. Maybe I should start another section at the top just for additional methods on 3.5...

Oh wait, you can totally do that in 2nd as well can't you (I have to check, I play 2nd ed not run it normally).Moldocalypse doesn't work in 2E. Direct sunlight or ultraviolet light kills brown mold (as does Cone of Cold, Wand of Cold, or the breath of a silver or white dragon).

[Tinkerer]

Moldocalypse doesn't work in 2E. Direct sunlight or ultraviolet light kills brown mold (as does Cone of Cold, Wand of Cold, or the breath of a silver or white dragon).

Ah. If you've got a question about spells in 2E I'm an encyclopedia of information. If you've got a question about monsters I'm completely useless.

[Lord Torath]

I would also argue that the intent behind the growth of brown mold is an increase based on the standard patch size. A torch causes the patch to grow to double, a net increase of one Standard Patch Size (or SPS). Flaming oil would cause it to gain three SPSs (for a total of four). Fireball causes it to grown an additional seven SPSs. So one patch subjected to a fireball and a torch would have a final size nine times bigger than when it started, just like the way a first-level thief backstabbing a monster with a dagger that inflicts triple damage against that monster-type inflicts four times normal damage (plus magic/str modifiers), rather than six times damage.