How does "sir" work?

[8BitNinja]

So John Doe is known as Mr. John Doe. He is knighted and is now known as "sir." Would John Doe be known as Sir John Doe, Sir Mr. John Doe, or Mr. Sir John Doesn't.

Let's say he also earns his doctorate. Would he be known Sir Dr. John Doe, Dr. Sir John Doe, Dr. John Doe, or Sir John Doe?

Just a random question. If anyone could answer this, that would be great.

[Fri]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir#Combinations_with_other_titles_and_styles

[Amazon]

I think you are just called by your highest title.

Mr -> Dr. -> Sir.

So a Sir who is also a doctor would just be called a Sir.

[mucat]

I think you are just called by your highest title.

Mr -> Dr. -> Sir.

So a Sir who is also a doctor would just be called a Sir.

Though he could put his degree after his name as well: "Sir John Doe, PhD".

A military rank or an academic title (like "Professor") go before the "Sir", so he could be "Colonel Sir John Doe", or "Professor Sir John Doe".

[Amazon]

Though he could put his degree after his name as well: "Sir John Doe, PhD".

A military rank or an academic title (like "Professor") go before the "Sir", so he could be "Colonel Sir John Doe", or "Professor Sir John Doe".

I think it works like that for military ranks not so sure about the academic ones.

[BannedInSchool]

Admiral Sir Lord Nelson. :smallwink:

[Euclidodese]

Sir gets in his car, and Sir's chauffeur drives Sir to the office.

[Peelee]

So John Doe is known as Mr. John Doe. He is knighted and is now known as "sir." Would John Doe be known as Sir John Doe, Sir Mr. John Doe, or Mr. Sir John Doesn't.

Let's say he also earns his doctorate. Would he be known Sir Dr. John Doe, Dr. Sir John Doe, Dr. John Doe, or Sir John Doe?

Just a random question. If anyone could answer this, that would be great.

"Sir John Doe." "Mr." is a title for the title-less. Any other title takes its place. And doctorates or medical degrees can be added to the end, as "Sir John Doe, Ph.D" or "Sir John Doe, DM." Which I like better, because it says what kind of doctor.

[Knaight]

I think you are just called by your highest title.

Mr -> Dr. -> Sir.

So a Sir who is also a doctor would just be called a Sir.

The highest title is contextual - "Sir" is often higher, but in the cases where academic titles are particularly relevant (medical doctors doing medicine, researchers doing research, lending credibility to academic writing, etc.) using "Dr." is likely to be pretty standard.

[Mr Blobby]

- Sir John Doe would be addressed informally as Sir John.
- Personal preferences would also apply; if Sir John was also an MD, he could let it be known he preferred to be known as 'Dr Doe'. This sometimes happens when they're is already known publicly as 'Dr Doe' and don't wish to confuse people.
- It's situational. Doe may wish to be called 'Dr Doe' if attending a medical/scientific function or, but 'Sir John' if at a high-class one. The British Queen does this herself occasionally.
- If Doe was also say a Colonel, he may be addressed as 'Colonel Doe' but then conversationally as 'Sir John' [or in this case, simply 'sir']
- It can get rather long and frankly silly. Take this RL example: 'General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC' And this is one of the *shorter* ones. We also have the situation where a few people have *two* titles granting the use of 'Sir'. There was an article in the media whether the most recent one was 'Sir X' or 'Sir Sir X'.
- Terry Pratchett makes a joke of this British tradition with Sam Vimes. By The Fifth Elephant, you've got him being addressed as Sir Samuel, The Duke of Ankh, Commander Vimes, Ambassador and at one point 'Monitorship Vimes' [after he made a joke about being 'blackboard monitor' as a small kid and perhaps should include it on his list of titles].

[AuthorGirl]

- Terry Pratchett makes a joke of this British tradition with Sam Vimes. By The Fifth Elephant, you've got him being addressed as Sir Samuel, The Duke of Ankh, Commander Vimes, Ambassador and at one point 'Monitorship Vimes' [after he made a joke about being 'blackboard monitor' as a small kid and perhaps should include it on his list of titles].

Didn't Blackboard Monitor Vimes become considerably less of a joke as time went on?

[anjxed]

- It can get rather long and frankly silly. Take this RL example: 'General Sir John Winthrop Hackett, GCB, CBE, DSO & Bar, MC' And this is one of the *shorter* ones.


How about this one: His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular

Or this fictional one: His Highness, His Execllency, The Supreme Leader of all Wadiyans, Admiral General Hafez Aladeen, By the Grace of Allah and Unanimous Acclamation of the People, Beloved Oppressor, President and Prime Minister

[An Enemy Spy]

Didn't Blackboard Monitor Vimes become considerably less of a joke as time went on?

With the dwarfs, yes, because they consider writing to be sacred and thus anyone who has the power to erase it is either a person of great importance or a blasphemer of the highest order, depending who you ask.

[Wardog]

- Terry Pratchett makes a joke of this British tradition with Sam Vimes. By The Fifth Elephant, you've got him being addressed as Sir Samuel, The Duke of Ankh, Commander Vimes, Ambassador and at one point 'Monitorship Vimes' [after he made a joke about being 'blackboard monitor' as a small kid and perhaps should include it on his list of titles].
And Mort has Queen Kelirehenna I, Lord of Sto Lat, Protector of the Eight Protectorates and Empress of the Long Thin Debated Piece Hubwards of Sto Kerrig

[danzibr]

I recently wondered how a different combination of titles work.

I have a PhD, and am soon to be a lieutenant in the Air Force. I'll be Lieutenant Brigham, PhD.

But... suppose I become a deacon (which I'm seriously considering, later in life). How would the reverend fit in there? Rev Lt Brigham, PhD?

[Peelee]

I recently wondered how a different combination of titles work.

I have a PhD, and am soon to be a lieutenant in the Air Force. I'll be Lieutenant Brigham, PhD.

But... suppose I become a deacon (which I'm seriously considering, later in life). How would the reverend fit in there? Rev Lt Brigham, PhD?

Would you still be in the military, and would you be a military or civilian reverend? I'm not 100% sure on how multiple titles work in the military, but presumably, yes, you're correct. See the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Mr Blobby]

Upper-middle class culture [as far as I can tell] states it's simply 'not done' for a person to always use all their titles. So in the case above, Danzibr would pick to be either 'Rev Brigham' or 'Lt Brigham' to the world in general. As with post-letters, the PhD would only be mentioned on a) formally in writing [say on a letterhead] or b) a Who's Who entry. To ask to be addressed with it makes you look rather pretentious.

[danzibr]

Would you still be in the military, and would you be a military or civilian reverend? I'm not 100% sure on how multiple titles work in the military, but presumably, yes, you're correct. See the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Ahh, good call.

Right, I was assuming still in the military. Though I guess if/when I become a deacon, I certainly won't be a lieutenant anymore.

Upper-middle class culture [as far as I can tell] states it's simply 'not done' for a person to always use all their titles. So in the case above, Danzibr would pick to be either 'Rev Brigham' or 'Lt Brigham' to the world in general. As with post-letters, the PhD would only be mentioned on a) formally in writing [say on a letterhead] or b) a Who's Who entry. To ask to be addressed with it makes you look rather pretentious.
I'm thinking like... e-mail signature.

I imagine it just depends on the context. Like in church, reverend. At work, major. If for some reason I'm in an academic setting, doctor.

But yeah, there's no way I'd ask to be addressed in such a manner.

[Mr Blobby]

Think even in academia, 'Rev' would be better; as a) you'd often be in a room of 'Doctors' b) it's not in the general public's view a 'proper doctor' and c) generally 'Rev' [particularly if a practising one] has more social kudos.

[Peelee]

Ahh, good call.

Right, I was assuming still in the military. Though I guess if/when I become a deacon, I certainly won't be a lieutenant anymore.

See, that's what I was wondering about. My entire breadth of knowledge on the rank of clergy in the military comes from M*A*S*H, so I have no clue what rank they hold or if they're ever addressed by it.

[Ebon_Drake]

I imagine it just depends on the context. Like in church, reverend. At work, major. If for some reason I'm in an academic setting, doctor.
I think this is right. IIRC, isn't it normal practice for military chaplains not to use their rank when ministering to avoid a rank divide between them and their flock?

As another point of comparison, there's the Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr John Sentamu. He's the Archbishop of York, a Lord Spiritual in the Queen's Privy Council and a doctor of law so all three honorifics are valid. When he's mentioned on the news or whatever, they tend to go for Archbishop Dr John Sentamu.


Admiral Sir Lord Nelson. :smallwink:

No, just Admiral Lord Nelson. A lordship trumps a knighthood, see Sir Lord Alan Sugar for example.

[hamishspence]

No, just Admiral Lord Nelson. A lordship trumps a knighthood, see Sir Lord Alan Sugar for example.

The previously mentioned Terry Pratchett Samuel Vimes, did have an example of this - with a dukedom rather than a lordship:

"I'm an Excellency?" said Vimes to Inigo.
"Yes, Your Grace."
"And still My Grace as well?"
"Yes, Your Grace. You are His Grace His Excellency the Duke of Ankh-Morpork, Commander Sir Samuel Vimes, Your Grace."
"Hang on, hang on... His Grace cancels out the Sir, I know that. It's like having an ace in poker."
"Strictly speaking that is true, Your Grace, but great score is set by titles here and it is best to play with a full deck, mmm."

[Aedilred]

So John Doe is known as Mr. John Doe. He is knighted and is now known as "sir." Would John Doe be known as Sir John Doe, Sir Mr. John Doe, or Mr. Sir John Doesn't.

Let's say he also earns his doctorate. Would he be known Sir Dr. John Doe, Dr. Sir John Doe, Dr. John Doe, or Sir John Doe?

Just a random question. If anyone could answer this, that would be great.

It'd be "Sir John Doe". If shortened, it'd be to "Sir John", never to "Sir Doe". "Mr", rather like ", esq." is a style used by people who have no further titles to use, although it's sometimes still used out of preference in some cases (not every doctor uses the "Dr." prefix, and in the UK at least, for surgeons it's a point of pride to lose the "Doctor" styling). So "Sir" doesn't combine with the "Mr", rather it replaces it.

If he is a doctor as well, generally he will pick one or the other and use whichever is most appropriate in the context. The prefixes wouldn't be used together, but he could suffix the other. For instance, "Sir John Doe, MD" or "Doctor John Doe, Kt.*"

If he has additional titles, generally a deciding factor will be whether the forename is included. "Sir" is only used with the forename, while most other titles are used with the surname. For instance, if he were a lord, he'd be "Lord Doe"; if a general, "General Doe", etc. (The same principle applies to the doctorate, for that matter). When listing the name in full though it could be appropriate to include the "sir". So he'd be "General Doe", but could be "General Sir John Doe".

If he had a higher noble title, like a dukedom, generally that would be all he was known by ("His Grace the Duke of Doebury", or, if a lower lord, "Lord Doe"), but there might be occasions when he'd be introduced by both name and title simultaneously. Not all lords are knights, so it is sometimes appropriate to give the titles separately. For instance, he could conceivably be introduced as "His Grace Sir John Doe, Duke of Doebury" or the like - though this would be unusual. He wouldn't, as noted above, ever be "Lord Sir John Doe" or "Duke Sir John Doe"; the noble title would displace the knightly one in such instances.

*"Kt" is, I believe, the standard suffix for a feudal knight, but modern knighthoods are generally associated with orders, in which case it has its own suffix: in the UK, KBE, KCMG, KB, KG, etc, or, if they're a baronet, "Bart."

[veti]

Upper-middle class culture [as far as I can tell] states it's simply 'not done' for a person to always use all their titles.

Using multiple titles all together would be seen as, at best, a sign of crippling social insecurity, which would be devastating to one's reputation. Everyone (who matters) already knows that Viscount Doe also has a baronetcy, a military rank and a string of decorations - repeating that all the time would simply imply that one was afraid some people may not know about it. (Even if they don't, it'd be terribly bad form to care. Their ignorance is their problem.)

There are exceptions to this rule, such as when being announced at a formal shindig, or to foreign dignitaries who couldn't be expected to know everything about everyone in your country's society. But in general, the ideal is to pick just enough titles to make it 100% clear who you are - just enough to distinguish you from the six other John Does of the haut ton - and then rely on your reputation (and/or Who's Who) to make a more comprehensive introduction for you.

[GloatingSwine]

It'd be "Sir John Doe". If shortened, it'd be to "Sir John", never to "Sir Doe". "Mr", rather like ", esq." is a style used by people who have no further titles to use, although it's sometimes still used out of preference in some cases (not every doctor uses the "Dr." prefix, and in the UK at least, for surgeons it's a point of pride to lose the "Doctor" styling). So "Sir" doesn't combine with the "Mr", rather it replaces it.


Esquire is a funny one. In Britain it's used by lower echelons of the Scottish gentry, in the US it's a mark that one is qualified to practice law.

[Ebon_Drake]

Esquire is a funny one. In Britain it's used by lower echelons of the Scottish gentry, in the US it's a mark that one is qualified to practice law.

Esquire was the rank between Gentleman and Knight. Nowadays in the UK it's mostly just a more formal alternative to Mr. For some reason, some banks are still fond of using it on correspondence.

[Asmodean_]

Mr Sir Dr Sir Right Honourable The Mr Sir of Sir Mister Sir Rev Dr Lt Sir Dr Mr St Admiral Steve Bloggs, Esquire

[Tvtyrant]

Sir works very hard. Sir is a good boy, and deserves pats.

[Aedilred]

Esquire is a funny one. In Britain it's used by lower echelons of the Scottish gentry, in the US it's a mark that one is qualified to practice law.

Esquire was the rank between Gentleman and Knight. Nowadays in the UK it's mostly just a more formal alternative to Mr. For some reason, some banks are still fond of using it on correspondence.

Pretty much. I think traditionally it's a mark that someone is a person of consequence: that they've been to university, own property, are a member of a professional association, or what have you (this would generally equate to being entitled to a coat of arms). These days it is generally used, as Ebon Drake says, as a more formal alternative to "Mr".

It is still in England and Wales the suffix for barristers, who have no other unless they are QC. But since there is no lower bound of entitlement for it, that is no longer a mark of distinction.

[Mr Blobby]

That's the ticket; the more titles and decorations one obtains, the less one is supposed to care about them. At least in the UK. It's almost an undead horse trope; the working-class boy/girl made good comes dressed to the nines to some upper-crust party in their Bentley, only to see the other guests are in jeans and worn tweed and drove in tired Land Rovers.