Pathfinder [Dreamscarred Press] New Playtest: the Voyager, a psionic skirmisher! [Archive]

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Deimosaur

2017-09-22, 10:07 PM

Here comes a new playtest for a psionic class, courtesy of Dreamscarred Press: the Voyager. A 6-level manifestor with plenty of potential tricks up their sleeves, voyagers are tricksters who play with time and space. And they love to go fast! They have a unique new ability based on their capability of receiving assistance from their future, past, and alternate selves, known as parallel actions. In combat, they can make unique things happen with a combination of speed and psionic power. Besides their contributions in a fight, a voyager can fit into a party as a trapfinder or a veritable fountain of knowledge.

Besides the base class, this document contains supporting feats for psionic classes and racial favored class options for the voyager, along with an archetypes for the voyager. The archetype is the metronome, who keeps pace with her alternate selves to gain consistency at the cost of potential speed.

To read about them and more, click here:

https://i.imgur.com/pysB486.png (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing)

(or this link) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Game well and have fun.

Dromuthra

2017-09-22, 10:27 PM

Holy cow this is cool! I REALLY like momentum!

legomaster00156

2017-09-22, 10:28 PM

What led you to decide on a d6 HD? That's usually a full caster's HD, whereas skirmishers usually sport d8's (and very occasionally d10's).

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-09-22, 10:38 PM

And it's surprising to see a purported melee class get a d6, not to mention decoupling it from the standard HD/BAB dichotomy. Granted, taking Psionic Body would help since you get a bonus psionic feat (Expanded Knowledge) every time you gain a new level of powers would help mitigate that.

Andras Zodon

2017-09-23, 12:16 AM

It looks like its fully intended for momentum to be usable in tandem with ranged attacks. That's pretty interesting, actually. Speedsters are cool, but you can't be the flash until you can throw lightning!

Rynjin

2017-09-23, 01:22 AM

What led you to decide on a d6 HD? That's usually a full caster's HD, whereas skirmishers usually sport d8's (and very occasionally d10's).

If I had to take a stab at it, it's because Tracer is a really squishy character. =p

I kid (mostly). The class looks really cool.

Swaoeaeieu

2017-09-23, 03:07 AM

am on my first read through, loving the feel of the class, but dont have high hopes for ever playing one, as all the stuff to keep track off would blow my head up.

either way, my english isnt the best but i think i found a typo: in Time Trap (branched path) "The voyager can have her parallel counterparts can pull someone..." two can's dont look right.

i'll keep reading, it's all looking great so far ^^

Dromuthra

2017-09-23, 03:09 AM

Under the Impending Disaster ability, it states that, "This area is a 10-foot spread, and the doomsayer can increase the area’s size by additional feet for every 4 class levels he has." Pretty sure it's missing a number there - I'm guessing 5' or 10' increase?

DMVerdandi

2017-09-23, 06:40 AM

interesting, BUT... I would think that Fast movement would be a giveaway.
Monk, which yes, alters their body through ki, passively gets hella speed, and even barbarian who moves faster than normal man for...reasons does as well, but this class which is all about time/space travel is not even given +10?

This has always disturbed me. "quick" classes, like rogue or ninja for example, not getting any movement bonus.
I think it would, and should benefit from it.

TheTeaMustFlow

2017-09-23, 07:56 AM

The Elf and Dwarf FCBs seem rather strong when combined with multiple attacks.

interesting, BUT... I would think that Fast movement would be a giveaway.
Monk, which yes, alters their body through ki, passively gets hella speed, and even barbarian who moves faster than normal man for...reasons does as well, but this class which is all about time/space travel is not even given +10?

This has always disturbed me. "quick" classes, like rogue or ninja for example, not getting any movement bonus.
I think it would, and should benefit from it.

That's a bit odd, but they do have things like Speed of Thought, various Parallel Actions, and Psionic Powers to boost their speed - perhaps the attention was that they would rely on them rather than having a purely physical boost?

Dromuthra

2017-09-23, 07:57 AM

AlienFromBeyond

2017-09-23, 02:23 PM

Why isn't the momentum damage bonus from Power Cycle reduced when you spend PP as a free action, but move/swift/immediate are? I've found ways for 2 psionic classes (Aegis and Vitalist) to do so with minimal level investment, and I only checked Ultimate Psionics itself. The Aegis one in particular would be brutally effective.

Momentous Maneuvers should probably convert the damage bonus from Power Cycle into additional maneuver bonus to maintain parity between damage and maneuver styles.

I don't like how squishy this class especially if you're going into melee. It has less HP than a Monk (until level 14 for Swapped Selves, assuming you don't get one-shot) and less AC than a Monk (no scaling +1/4 level bonus to AC on top of adding mental stat to AC). The AC bonus is even more vulnerable than a Monk's, because Uncanny Dodge can be bypassed (or feinted for the Voyager) while a Monk's AC bonus only turns off when immobilized or helpless.

Is Blink Frenzy's attack damage reduction intended to be a multiplier of 0.5 in terms of its interactions? Because if so the damage from the ability would be way too much, and crits would effectively nullify and then some the damage penalty anyways. If it's supposed to be some sort of overall damage reduction as a separate part of the formula, it should probably more clearly state that.

Personally, I would always take the Metronome archetype. The same initiative count is much more reliable, and being able to choose whether it happens before or after you each round is enormously useful. It means Fast-Forward readied attacks have no lag time, and that Pause can be used every other round to protect you without interfering with your own attacks (have it activate after your turn, then the next round have parallel go before you so the Pause buff expires).

The Ratfolk FCB seem a bit out of line, it's double the scaling of the Monk bonus, and runs into the opposite problem regular Voyager has by making them incredibly difficult to hit. The Dromite's FCB almost makes it sound like it stacks if you move through multiple allies since it mentions it happens "each time".

Overall though I find the class intriguing, and better than I had expected. I was worried it was going to be to Cryptic what Highlord is to Tactician, but it feels significantly more different to me.

Deimosaur

2017-09-23, 03:02 PM

Regarding the voyager's hit die: I figured that voyagers may be able to compensate for their low hit points with various options from parallel actions and manifesting. But I'm hearing all of your concerns here. Also it might have been an artifact of an older design but I forget.

I don't like how squishy this class especially if you're going into melee. It has less HP than a Monk (until level 14 for Swapped Selves, assuming you don't get one-shot) and less AC than a Monk (no scaling +1/4 level bonus to AC on top of adding mental stat to AC). The AC bonus is even more vulnerable than a Monk's, because Uncanny Dodge can be bypassed (or feinted for the Voyager) while a Monk's AC bonus only turns off when immobilized or helpless.
I will note though, that unlike the monk, the voyager can wear light armor and wield shields. If the lack of additional scaling is an issue, I'll look into improving this aspect of Momentum.

Personally, I would always take the Metronome archetype. The same initiative count is much more reliable, and being able to choose whether it happens before or after you each round is enormously useful. It means Fast-Forward readied attacks have no lag time, and that Pause can be used every other round to protect you without interfering with your own attacks (have it activate after your turn, then the next round have parallel go before you so the Pause buff expires).
By all means, try it out. I'd like to hear your and other opinions about this after they both get tried out a little. I think they both have their pros and cons.

The base voyager can at least delay their own initiative (or their parallel one, should it miraculously roll higher) to sync themselves up with their parallel action. Voyager vs metronome is more like a choice between versatility and reliability.

What you've mentioned there, though... might be a rules hole I need to take care of! "Until her next parallel turn" was kind of a shortcut to saying "one round" so I'd better go fix that.

either way, my english isnt the best but i think i found a typo: in Time Trap (branched path) "The voyager can have her parallel counterparts can pull someone..." two can's dont look right.

Under the Impending Disaster ability, it states that, "This area is a 10-foot spread, and the doomsayer can increase the area’s size by additional feet for every 4 class levels he has." Pretty sure it's missing a number there - I'm guessing 5' or 10' increase?
How embarrassing. Fixed these. (It's 5 feet for impending disaster.)

The Elf and Dwarf FCBs seem rather strong when combined with multiple attacks.

The Ratfolk FCB seem a bit out of line, it's double the scaling of the Monk bonus, and runs into the opposite problem regular Voyager has by making them incredibly difficult to hit.
Agreed, there used to be factors that balanced these but then we changed those! Fixed:

The maximum bonus this ability can grant to a given attack is equal to the amount of momentum consumed by that attack.

The voyager gains either +1/2 additional AC against melee or ranged attacks when she gains AC from momentum, chosen whenever she takes this bonus.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-09-23, 03:30 PM

Are you unaware that short of specific archetypes and class features, HD and BAB are linked together? This class should have a d8 for HD.

Also, momentum, the class's source of extra damage, is a highly inconvenient class feature that encourages going back and forth between two squares to gain momentum.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-09-23, 03:44 PM

Are you unaware that short of specific archetypes and class features, HD and BAB are linked together? This class should have a d8 for HD.
3pp restricting themselves to only what Paizo has done in the past limits the potential creativity of trying different designs. There is no overriding mandate from Paizo that they must be linked after all. Hell, look at the Rajah or its Batal archetype, also by DSP. They're more than willing to change up expectations to try something new.

Also, momentum, the class's source of extra damage, is a highly inconvenient class feature that encourages going back and forth between two squares to gain momentum.
I agree here that the back and forth to build momentum is an issue, thematically anyways. Perhaps it should require moving into a square they haven't been in that turn? That would result in a more zigzag type pattern similar to if one were playing the Snake video game, which is a little better at least.

I will note though, that unlike the monk, the voyager can wear light armor and wield shields. If the lack of additional scaling is an issue, I'll look into improving this aspect of Momentum.
I readily admit I had not noticed it could wear light armor and use shields, I have a tendency to gloss over the proficiency section in new classes. That's actually fine then, a +5 heavy shield is 7 AC alone, already better than Monk AC at that point, and that's not even getting into armor itself. I suppose the idea is that the Voyager has very strong AC but weak HP so they don't get hit often at all but when they do they seriously feel it (like Grodd managing to smack around Barry)?

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-09-23, 03:55 PM

I haven't seen the final version of the the batal, but the rajah was d6 HD and 1/2 BAB, unless it was radically changed from the playtest.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-09-23, 03:58 PM

3pp restricting themselves to only what Paizo has done in the past limits the potential creativity of trying different designs. There is no overriding mandate from Paizo that they must be linked after all. Hell, look at the Rajah or its Batal archetype, also by DSP.

The rajah still has d6 HD and 1/2 BAB. Specific archetypes and class features can tinker with this. I do not see a good mechanical reason for the voyager to be unable to take a hit.

I agree here that the back and forth to build momentum is an issue, thematically anyways. Perhaps it should require moving into a square they haven't been in that turn? That would result in a more zigzag type pattern similar to if one were playing the Snake video game, which is a little better at least.

The most optimal playstyle for a voyager so far seems to be to move back and forth between two squares and then fire a bow.

If they downgrade momentum, then the voyager will have trouble putting out decent offense.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-09-23, 04:17 PM

I haven't seen the final version of the the batal, but the rajah was d6 HD and 1/2 BAB, unless it was radically changed from the playtest.
Yes, but it's got the large attack bonus to fake having a higher BAB. Plus the Batal archetype still gives the effect of 2 HP per level, it may not technically change the Rajah's HD but that sure as hell the end result.

The most optimal playstyle for a voyager so far seems to be to move back and forth between two squares and then fire a bow.
I know, I was agreeing with you? Did you not read the post, I was putting forth a suggestion as a possible change to address that very playstyle?

Dromuthra

2017-09-23, 04:55 PM

Yeah, I'm not personally a fan that you can hop between two different squares. One possible fix would be to allow Momentum to persist until used, but require the Voyager to end their movement a number of squares away from their starting position equal to 1/2 or 1/3 the amount of momentum used? Like, to use 10 Momentum, you'd need to end your movement 25 or 15 ft. away from your starting point depending on which conversion you used.

I think it would also be cool if Accelerate somehow let you upgrade Up the Walls as you gained levels, and eventually allowed you to stand on vertical and upside-down surfaces once you reached a certain level.

Other than that, some balance issues with the favored classes:
Orc: With the Dwarf and Elf nerfed to at most provide 20 bonus damage per round, it seems odd that the Orc can provide up to 40.
Ifrit: Unlike the other elemental damage modifiers (Maenad, Sylph, etc.), the Ifrit gains +1 per level instead of +1/2
Elemental Damage Bonus Races (Ifrit, Maenad, Sylph, etc.): These races add more damage over a round than the Elves and Dwarves do. Given that Elves and Dwarves cap out at 20 damage, it seems odd that the elemental damage races can do 30 damage in a round by having the Voyager spend their momentum over each of their three attacks (allowing them to apply the +10 damage to each hit of their BaB at level 20). This ratio gets even sillier if the Voyager uses Two Weapon fighting, as a point of momentum can be used to add 1d6+10 to each iterative or natural attack the Voyager has. It's a neat concept, but it's too easy to break.
Tiefling: WOW you're good. The FCB can add +60 damage to your attacks in a surprise round, and any other time you can set up flanking. The number only goes up if you consider the TWF route.

Deimosaur

2017-09-23, 05:10 PM

I'm not married to the d6 HD. If it's a problem in testing then I will certainly think about changing it.

I will also think about the momentum issues that some of you brought up earlier. I know it's gameable at the moment but adding too many restrictions on how the voyager has to move to get their damage isn't particularly desirable either.

Other than that, some balance issues with the favored classes:
Orc: With the Dwarf and Elf nerfed to at most provide 20 bonus damage per round, it seems odd that the Orc can provide up to 40.
Ifrit: Unlike the other elemental damage modifiers (Maenad, Sylph, etc.), the Ifrit gains +1 per level instead of +1/2
Elemental Damage Bonus Races (Ifrit, Maenad, Sylph, etc.): These races add more damage over a round than the Elves and Dwarves do. Given that Elves and Dwarves cap out at 20 damage, it seems odd that the elemental damage races can do 30 damage in a round by having the Voyager spend their momentum over each of their three attacks (allowing them to apply the +10 damage to each hit of their BaB at level 20). This ratio gets even sillier if the Voyager uses Two Weapon fighting, as a point of momentum can be used to add 1d6+10 to each iterative or natural attack the Voyager has. It's a neat concept, but it's too easy to break.
Tiefling: WOW you're good. The FCB can add +60 damage to your attacks in a surprise round, and any other time you can set up flanking. The number only goes up if you consider the TWF route.
...ack.

Yeah, I'm adding the same caveat I added to elf and dwarf to the others.

I'd rather there not be notably powerful outliers. All races can pick up the 1/6 of a psionic feat FCB, but if anything seems very underpowered (not just specific or situational) please let me know.

Galacktic

2017-09-23, 05:40 PM

Deimosaur

2017-09-23, 07:07 PM

So I'm throwing together one (I'm at a point where I can swap characters in a game, and I'm looking to test something new and fresh!) and I'm trying to decide between strength or dex based. I'm gonna ignore projectiles, as that doesn't seem to quite fit the theme and I'm curious as to what was more prevalent in your tests so far? Strength or dex?

And what martial weapon do people tend to take?
I'd recommend trying or building both. Strength is probably simpler overall, if you're going melee.

And another question: Did you play ToME? This reminds me incredibly heavily of the Temporal Warden and Paradox Mages!
I haven't. I'll have to take a peek at some point and see how much convergent development there was. : P

E2: One other question: Why is it that only the Doombringer archetype has any downsides for the Voyager? Thematically, if you're taking time and assistance from your future selves (or psionically created versions thereof) then shouldn't you at some point have to pay that time back to assist yourself in the past? Or was that just too clunky to actually play with?
Thematically, a voyager can certainly role-play that way in down time. Space out, look like they're concentrating on something far away. But they don't 'owe' themselves any debts. It's not an obligation that needs to be paid by in-game mechanics.

Balance-wise, the reason the doomsayer gets staggered with some parallel actions is that the effects of such actions are stronger. Thematically, it's because their future self is kind of a terrible person (if they are a person anymore, that is...) and aggressively draws on the doomsayer's time to make stuff happen.

E3: In my prospective build for this, I'm taking a dip at level 5 into Stalker for Killer's Implements, I believe. That'd shore up the feat situation a bit - seeing as how feat heavy the class is in general I feel like - and grant a few bonuses besides. I'd delay branching paths a bit, but that's fine with me.
Feel free to experiment!

Air0r

2017-09-23, 07:49 PM

I have this mental image of a voyager rapidly throwing phantasmal future selves at their enemies, that harm the target and dissipate on contact. that is all for now.

Galacktic

2017-09-23, 07:53 PM

Fast question: Faster and Faster, when it refers to the insight bonus granted by the Accelerate class feature does it also include the base 10' included in Speed of Thought or only what Accelerate adds?

digiman619

2017-09-23, 08:22 PM

Okay. Let me take a look and give you my initial impressions:
* Any reason it's 3/4th BAB with a D6 hit die? Because half BAB=d6, 3/4th BAB=d8 and full=d10/d12 is kinda a major assumption of the game.
* Accelerate really ought only double move rate if you move at least 30 ft. Otherwise, Dwarf and small Voyagers will get shortchanged.
* Momentum is a really interesting way to promote being a mobile striker. I like it, though part of me worries that some build will dip a level of Voyager to get it. Also, what's stopping them from running in circles to get more momentum?
* Voyager Knowledge gives 19 Expanded Knowledge feats? That... seems powerful. Even if you can't get 7-9th level powers. 5 instances of Expanded Knowledge is really interesting.
* Information Exchange really ought to allow you to make the "borrowed" knowledge trained. If for no other reason than you otherwise won't be able to beat a DC 10.
* Swapped Selves seems odd, but hit point damage isn't the leading cause of death at that level, so it should be fine.
* Fate in Flux seemed like its effect (free psychic reformation on yourself) was kinda mandatory for the fluff it had.
* What happens if the future version of a voyager summoned via Eternity Awaits dies? Does another, even later in the future version of them show up? How far does that go?
* The pause parallel action should probably have some sort of drawback for casting while paused because as it stands, casters/manifesters are only inconvenienced if they are using a spell/power that requires an attack roll.
* You do realize that Focused Swiftness is strictly better than Deep Focus, right? Even if that's your intention, you should probably but a prerequisite on it because as it stands, anyone can take it and some may interpret that as allowing them to become psionically focused without being psionic.

All and all a really interesting class that has the most important qualification for a casting/manifesting class have: it is interesting without access to its spells/powers (it's why Wizards bore me to this day).

Galacktic

2017-09-23, 08:24 PM

Okay. Let me take a look and give you my initial impressions:
* Any reason it's 3/4th BAB with a D6 hit die? Because half BAB=d6, 3/4th BAB=d8 and fll=d10/d12 is kinda a major assumption of the game.
* Accelerate really ought only double move rate if you move at least 30 ft. Otherwise, Dwarf and small Voyagers will get shortchanged.
* Momentum is a really interesting way to promote being a mobile striker. I like it, though part of me worries that some build will dip a level of Voyager to get it. Also, what's stopping them from running in circles to get more momentum?
* Voyager Knowledge gives 19 Expanded Knowledge feats? That... seems powerful. Even if you can't get 7-9th level powers.
* Information Exchange really ought to allow you to make the "borrowed" knowledge trained. If for no other reason than otherwise you won;t be able to beat a DC 10.
* Swapped Selves seems odd, but hit point damage isn't the leading casue of death at taht level, so it should be fine.
* Fate in Flux seemed like its effect (free psychic reformation on yourself) was kinda mandatory for the fluff it had.
* What happens if the future version of a voyager summend via Eternity Awaits dies? Does another, even later in the future version of them show up? How far does that go?
* The pause parallel action should probaly have some sort of drawback for casting while pasused, becasue as it stands, casters/manifesters are only inconvinenced if they are using a spell/power that requires an attack roll.
* You do realize that Focused Swiftness is strictly better than Deep Focus, right? Even if that's your intention, you should probalby but a prerequisite oin it because as it stands, anyone can take it and some may interpret that as allowing them to become psionically focues without being psionic.

All and all a really interesting class that has the most important qualification for a casting/manifesting class have: it is interesting without access to its spells/powers (it's why Wizards bore me to this day).

Voyager Knowledge only gives 5 Expanded Knowledge: One for each power level after first. I think.

digiman619

2017-09-23, 08:29 PM

Voyager Knowledge only gives 5 Expanded Knowledge: One for each power level after first. I think.

Whoops, you are right, In retropsect, that should have been obvious. Perhaps wording it as "At 4th level and every level you gain access to a new level of voyager powers...". At least including it on the table at the appropriate levels might prevent misunderstandings.

Deimosaur

2017-09-23, 08:32 PM

* Accelerate really ought only double move rate if you move at least 30 ft. Otherwise, Dwarf and small Voyagers will get shortchanged.
* Information Exchange really ought to allow you to make the "borrowed" knowledge trained. If for no other reason than you otherwise won't be able to beat a DC 10.
* What happens if the future version of a voyager summoned via Eternity Awaits dies? Does another, even later in the future version of them show up? How far does that go?
* The pause parallel action should probably have some sort of drawback for casting while paused because as it stands, casters/manifesters are only inconvenienced if they are using a spell/power that requires an attack roll.
* You do realize that Focused Swiftness is strictly better than Deep Focus, right? Even if that's your intention, you should probably but a prerequisite on it because as it stands, anyone can take it and some may interpret that as allowing them to become psionically focused without being psionic.
* Hee hee short changed. (Will think about this.)
* Yeah, good idea.
* The future Voyager doesn't get Eternity Awaits. So them dying means...they're dead.
* Perhaps. Will think about it.
* Focused Swiftness is better if you only used your psionic focus on movement-based abilities or powers. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by this? In addition, Focused Swiftness is a psionic feat, which means it requires you to be psionic already.

Voyager Knowledge only gives 5 Expanded Knowledge: One for each power level after first. I think.
Correct.

Whoops, you are right, In retropsect, that should have been obvious. Perhaps wording it as "At 4th level and every level you gain access to a new level of voyager powers...". At least including it on the table at the appropriate levels might prevent misunderstandings.
It'd be nice, but there's a possibility of a voyager getting a 2nd level power (etc) earlier than their 4th voyager level. From a PrC that progresses their powers, for instance.

Fast question: Faster and Faster, when it refers to the insight bonus granted by the Accelerate class feature does it also include the base 10' included in Speed of Thought or only what Accelerate adds?
As written, it only buffs the extra speed of Accelerate.

Galacktic

2017-09-24, 02:41 PM

Deimosaur

2017-09-24, 03:59 PM

Question: Do the teleports that the Voyager gets (the primary one I'm thinking of right now is Assisted Escape) require line of sight or effect? Or say, can the Voyager walk up to a doorway and teleport through using their parallel action?
I added some text to the parallel action section that should clarify things regarding parallel actions and line of sight/effect.

Unless otherwise noted, parallel actions that target something or teleport the voyager require line of sight, though those that teleport do not require line of effect.

Galacktic

2017-09-24, 04:06 PM

I added some text to the parallel action section that should clarify things regarding parallel actions and line of sight/effect.

Thanks! That's what we thought, but wanted to make sure.

Milo v3

2017-09-25, 07:06 AM

Is it intended that Astral Voyager requires all the allies travelling with the voyager to have manifested Astral Traveller?

MindTheGap97

2017-09-25, 03:05 PM

Ok, I had a little time to test it out and here are my thoughts so far:

-First and foremost: d6 hit dice is quite low, even with a respectable armor class from momentum. I got downed by a single attack at level 3.

-The class is a lot of fun and one of my favorite concepts in quite some time, I really like it, I went dex focused with a katana (the class kind of gave me a Dave Strider feel)

-For now the damage seems to keep up well and the fact that it applies also to teleports opens up stuff like dimensional agility with two-weapon fighting to full attack after a teleport

-Saves progression is good

I don't really understand why you shouldn't pick metronome, I fail to see the downsides of it.
Great work!!!

Deimosaur

2017-09-25, 03:32 PM

There's been some minor updates in response to feedback, the most significant being the following:

Time Swap feat: Removed, as its effect has been incorporated into the main ability.

Parallel Initiative: After rolling both her initiative and her parallel initiative and seeing the results, the voyager may switch the results of her initiative check with her parallel initiative.

Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing) to document for convenience's sake.

-For now the damage seems to keep up well and the fact that it applies also to teleports opens up stuff like dimensional agility with two-weapon fighting to full attack after a teleport
I'm sorry to say this doesn't quite work. Dimensional Agility only works with abundant step or dimension door, not voyager teleportation. I recommend taking a look at the branched path for Fast-Forward: Blink Frenzy for that kind of imagery, though.

Galacktic

2017-09-25, 04:19 PM

MindTheGap97

2017-09-25, 08:02 PM

I'm sorry to say this doesn't quite work. Dimensional Agility only works with abundant step or dimension door, not voyager teleportation. I recommend taking a look at the branched path for Fast-Forward: Blink Frenzy for that kind of imagery, though.

Oh, I see, anyways, great job with the class, one of my favorite concepts of all time

Prime32

2017-09-26, 02:11 PM

kglusing

2017-09-26, 02:24 PM

So far after playing with it a bit, I wouls have to agree that the D6 is too low. Maybe move the secondary health pool to lower levels? Cause it's entirely squishy and oneshot worthy if something manages to hit it.I like this idea. d8 + secondary health pool could prove too much at higher levels, but d6 and gaining it sooner is, at worst, a little better than fighter, verging on barbarian health with rogue base attack. Somebody that pumps Con and takes something like Toughness, for example, would make a mockery of opponents with the added oomph of a d8 hit die at x2 health pools. Granted, that's an extreme case, but a possibility to consider nonetheless.

Ninjaxenomorph

2017-09-26, 02:34 PM

I should note that Psionic Body is a good pick in addition to toughness, given the amount of psionic bonus feats the class gets.

MindTheGap97

2017-09-26, 09:41 PM

I like this idea. d8 + secondary health pool could prove too much at higher levels, but d6 and gaining it sooner is, at worst, a little better than fighter, verging on barbarian health with rogue base attack. Somebody that pumps Con and takes something like Toughness, for example, would make a mockery of opponents with the added oomph of a d8 hit die at x2 health pools. Granted, that's an extreme case, but a possibility to consider nonetheless.

Well, that doesn't really solve the issue of getting oneshotted which is more relevant at lower levels...
Psionic body is a relly nice feat, especially if you are grabbing some other psionic feats alongside the freebies that you get...with it d8 might not even be necessary, that kind of feels like a feat tax though...taking it at 1st would give you +4 hit points which is better than toughness. If using a psionic race it would be +6, twice the bonus from toughness, it seems good...

OBoyd

2017-09-26, 10:23 PM

I love the idea of this class, but it is trivially easy to build a Level 20 character that deals 300 plus points of damage to multiple characters every other round. Using the off round to regain Focus and/or position herself to increase the number of targets for the next round of Blink Frenzy.

Deimosaur

2017-09-26, 10:32 PM

I'd recommend listing Accelerate's bonus in the table - "Accelerate (+10ft)", etc. Likewise, Branching Paths should be divided into named tiers (e.g. Basic, Intermediate, Advanced) which are listed in the table, and moved out of the Parallel Actions section so that the line "the voyager automatically knows any parallel actions that she qualifies for" doesn't apply to them and confuse players.

Parallel Turns seem like they'd be less hassle at the table if they were simply at your normal initiative count -10, rather than rolling for them separately.

As for the power list, what about defer fatality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/defer-fatality/)? Hidden pocket (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/h/hidden-pocket/)? Or false future (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/f/false-future/) for the doomsayer?
Noted, some of this incorporated. Moved some text around to make branched paths clearer to understand (hopefully).

I love the idea of this class, but it is trivially easy to build a Level 20 character that deals 300 plus points of damage to multiple characters every other round. Using the off round to regain Focus and/or position herself to increase the number of targets for the next round of Blink Frenzy.
Oh? I'd like to see the math behind this. : O

OBoyd

2017-09-26, 11:06 PM

Using one of the Races that gets +1 Damage per Momentum die and Amplified Momentum gives us a 40' Base move (1 Level of Barbarian) + 60' Accelerate (w/ Faster and Faster) + 40' (18 pt. Burst to activate +3 damage per die from Power Cycle) = 140' of Momentum (14d6 damage). That's only 4 feats (with Meditation and Power Attack) and a 1 level dip.

With a Greatsword that's 16d6 + 70 from Race, Amplified Momentum and Power Cycle. Average Damage is 126 plus Magic, Strength and Power Attack (easily +19). Running over the same line 3 times, nets you double that (290) to each target on that line. If you can't pump the extra useless point into Burst for some reason I've missed to get that final +1/die, then this drops to 264 damage (still pretty good). If you can find a couple more ways to bump up the base speed it could get really silly.

I had missed the part about the cone not effecting creatures hit by the strike on my first read through and I assume it only creates a single cone no matter how many targets are hit, otherwise this gets truly ridiculous. I also just realized that she gets 3 PP back after the round, so you can do it a round or 2 longer.

*Edited because I was adding +5 to each die of the sword. You would need to add speed or more weapon damage to actually hit 300, but this is close.

Dromuthra

2017-09-26, 11:31 PM

OBoyd

2017-09-27, 08:06 AM

I don't think that actually works - momentum is only applied to a single target for a single attack. So you'd get a bunch of damage for your first attack (16d6+70) but you wouldn't get it for the following attacks.

The last line of Speeding Strike specifies that momentum damage applies to each target hit.

Dromuthra

2017-09-27, 08:54 AM

The last line of Speeding Strike specifies that momentum damage applies to each target hit.

That still only works on one of the lines. Looking at this scenario:

1. Ready an action to use Blink Frenzy; let's say somehow that you have 14 momentum.
2. Line one. Expend focus; use your momentum for every attack made on this line. You may apply the momentum to every target hit on this line. Momentum expended.
3. Line two. No momentum remaining.
4. Line three. No momentum remaining.

OBoyd

2017-09-27, 02:24 PM

That's good, but I didn't get that from 3 read throughs. So assuming Accelerate plus Faster and faster actually gives you +75 (150' with expended focus) we need to add the Fleet feat twice to get to a base 50' move so we can hit 20d6 momentum without using Burst. That allows us to hit for 200+ to a single target every other turn while ending the turn outside of the charge range of almost anything. Good, but not stupidly so.

You could still work the Blink Frenzy upto around 290 with a +5 flaming Greatsword but you would be expending 2 focuses (and a standard action 18 pt. Power) which means only doing it every third turn and needing an additional 5 points of damage per attack from somewhere to manage to hit 300 in a round. Using Temporal Acceleration as your power at 19 points means you do 60 less damage, but you can do it every round.

PsyBomb

2017-09-27, 09:53 PM

OBoyd, what level are you doing this at? I’m trying to plug in my own sims and need target numbers.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-09-27, 10:48 PM

Level 20 apparently. Honestly I don't see the problem. At that level casters are douling way crazier things than a couple hundred damage.

PsyBomb

2017-09-27, 10:50 PM

Level 20 apparently. Honestly I don't see the problem. At that level casters are douling way crazier things than a couple hundred damage.

If it’s 20, then even 3-400 really isn’t a problem. If he’s doing this at 10, it’s an issue. I’m starting to do my own builds, but that takes time.

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 08:40 AM

I was building it at level 20 and I'm happy that I was wrong. The first build I had was completely un-opptimized and based on misreading an ability. With some work I could have gotten it up to over 500 points per round to multiple targets. As it is now, the best you can do is that 300-350 without resorting to truly silliness and I'm happy with that.

I love the image of this guy pinballing around the field. Anybody know where I can find a giant anthropomorphic hedgehog race?

khadgar567

2017-09-28, 08:53 AM

Milo v3

2017-09-28, 09:05 AM

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 10:22 AM

Can we get an archetype which only swaps out Astral Voyager? It's sort of annoying having a class feature which only really works if everyone in the party has Astral Traveller as a power known, which really really restricts what types of parties are possible.

You get Astral Traveler free and should be able to cast it on as many people as you want. Since the range is increased for the Voyager it allows you take as many people as you want as long as they stay close to you for how ever many hours it takes for you to cast it on all of them.

Plus you get a another nice ability at 5th level even if you never use Astral travel.

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 10:26 AM

by the way whats the Jessie quick's path if fast then okay other wise how you attack every one?
ow and 0th level powers written twice in public doc

I'm not quite sue what you are asking here, but take a look at Fast-Forward and the Speeding Strike branching path.

khadgar567

2017-09-28, 10:41 AM

I'm not quite sue what you are asking here, but take a look at Fast-Forward and the Speeding Strike branching path.
I was asking what path you used in the build of yours. second part is just reporting a mistake in the public doc.

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 10:51 AM

I was asking what path you used in the build of yours. second part is just reporting a mistake in the public doc.

Yes, I was assuming the Fast -Forward Path. But if I were building a character at high level, I think I would take Rewind as my primary and use Bactrack ro get Blink Frenzy as well.

If I'm reading Rewind Fate correctly I coukd form an afterimage of the party member with the highest HP and then return to it to give myself the same total HP.

Giddonihah

2017-09-28, 04:18 PM

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 04:58 PM

I like the look of this class, damage from speed has always appealed to me, and I love dual initiative, mythic agile template being one of my favorite tools as a GM.

Though it seems like one could get incredible damage as soon as lvl 2.
Just go 1 lvl Voyager, then 1 lvl Druid/Witch/Shaman and grab Cheetahs Sprint.
500+ speed on a charge leads to one heck of a bite for a lvl 2 character.
Add in something that allows turning during a charge to make it more usable, Funhouse Waltz would of been the best, but sadly action economy stops it.

Remember that you cannot get more momentum dice than your class level. That keeps things from getting out of hand. By 12th level you can be a great Rogue/Skill Monkey and very difficult to kill on top of being a top of the line Skirmisher.

The 7th level Parallel Action pretty much removes any restrictions when charging.

arkangel111

2017-09-28, 06:33 PM

I agree with the problem of HD. First thing I did was compare this to magus. the D6 is extremely low and then you hit lvl 14 and literally double your hp, but lasting until then is going to be rough. realistically a wizard can do everything you can do and you have the same HP, honestly I'd have a hard time choosing to play this character before level 14. All that squishiness but no advantage to power. In a addition, since the class wants INT as at least a secondary stat 6 skills seems outrageous, when compared to the competition.

the class feels like a spring attack skirmisher, but currently I don't see a way for that to work. any time the character moves he will provoke, quickly depleting your hp, even the Teleporting abilities don't have a clause to prevent provoking. Speaking of teleportation dimensional dervish is a perfect feat path for this character thematically. Is there a reason why you are shying away from allowing a voyager to qualify?

one other thing, Information Exchange, reads funny. it says you are trained in it. but not how many skill points you get, whether or not you gain the +3 bonus for having at least 1 rank, or anything. I've typed up like 6 different options to try to fix it and deleted every one of them. I think it needs fixed but I don't know what direction you wish to take it. If it were me I would try to model it after an existing similar ability, especially since it is a minor ability.

Overall I feel like the class will, be fun if a little heavy on the tracking. If my current character dies I will be trying to slip this past my DM.

Deimosaur

2017-09-28, 07:17 PM

Oh hey, new page.

Playtest link again. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Yes, I was assuming the Fast -Forward Path. But if I were building a character at high level, I think I would take Rewind as my primary and use Bactrack ro get Blink Frenzy as well.
I got a question here. The way you phrased this, are you reading that taking a branched path is an all or nothing choice? Like choosing the first upgrade to Fast-Forward/Rewind/Pause locks you into the rest of that parallel action's choices at later levels? Or is this just shorthand for "I'd take all the rewind branching paths".

It's supposed to be that you're free to take one of the level 6 options, then one of the 12s, then one of the 18s. If it's not clear, please let me know.

any time the character moves he will provoke, quickly depleting your hp, even the Teleporting abilities don't have a clause to prevent provoking.
Point. Got this covered. If parallel actions provoked, it'd be a huge pain overall. Gonna just go ahead and hardcode it:

Using a parallel action does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, movement and teleportation made as part of a parallel action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

one other thing, Information Exchange, reads funny. it says you are trained in it. but not how many skill points you get, whether or not you gain the +3 bonus for having at least 1 rank, or anything. I've typed up like 6 different options to try to fix it and deleted every one of them. I think it needs fixed but I don't know what direction you wish to take it. If it were me I would try to model it after an existing similar ability, especially since it is a minor ability.
Gonna take a look at this and think about it. Thanks.
Edit:
Actually, being treated as trained is not the same as having skill ranks in something—something that makes you trained just lets you make checks in a skill that's normally trained-only. For example, this spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/akashic-communion/) lets you be treated as trained, but does not give ranks.

Overall I feel like the class will, be fun if a little heavy on the tracking. If my current character dies I will be trying to slip this past my DM.
Now, I would never hope for someone's character to die, but...

Prime32

2017-09-28, 08:14 PM

It occurs to me that when someone can't hit a speedster with regular attacks, they often switch to something that affects a wide area, and/or which will slow them down even on a glancing blow.

So with that and the squishiness in mind, can I suggest replacing Evasion with something along the lines of...

Anticipate (Ex): At 4th level a voyager excels at seeing her opponents' moves coming, and takes half damage from all attacks unless the attacker succeeds on their attack roll by 5 or more. Any additional effects delivered by the attack (such as poison or stunning) continue to function as normal. This ability does not function against critical hits or while the voyager is flat-footed or helpless. In addition it provides no defense against effects which lack attack rolls (such as a fireball spell).

Improved Anticipate (Ex): At 12th level, a voyager's ability to anticipate attacks improves. She gains the benefit of Anticipate on attacks where the attacker did not succeed on their attack roll by 10 or more.

Numbers might need some work, but basically an Armor Class equivalent to Evasion and Mettle, and could potentially make fights more exciting by increasing the odds of "narrow misses". Adding evade burst to their power list would let them still pick up Evasion if they want it.

OBoyd

2017-09-28, 09:25 PM

I got a question here. The way you phrased this, are you reading that taking a branched path is an all or nothing choice? Like choosing the first upgrade to Fast-Forward/Rewind/Pause locks you into the rest of that parallel action's choices at later levels? Or is this just shorthand for "I'd take all the rewind branching paths".

I did think that the first time I read through it. It could probably be stated a bit clearer, but the main problem is that there is a lot to absorb.

Am I correct that using Rewind Fate allows the Voyager to set her HP to whatever the targeted creatures were even if that is higher than her normal maximum? It sound probably be spelled out a bit more either way,

Deimosaur

2017-09-28, 09:34 PM

Am I correct that using Rewind Fate allows the Voyager to set her HP to whatever the targeted creatures were even if that is higher than her normal maximum? It sound probably be spelled out a bit more either way,
You can't rewind to an afterimage you made of someone else. You can rewind them back to their image and reset their health.

I added some wording that might help clarify in the main text of the rewind ability.

DiskElemental

2017-09-28, 10:19 PM

I'm currently putting together a Voyager for an Ironfang Invasion game. We're using Elephant in the Room Feat taxes, 20 point buy, first level start. I'll provide updates as we start to see the class in action, but here are my initial thoughts just from building it.

Race: Human

Stat Array:
Str 12
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 7

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (from Feat Taxes)
Deadly Agility
Dodge
Mobility (rolled into Dodge)

1. It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. The d6 HD really does feel crippling, and many of my other problems with the class. Even with 14 Con, and FCB into HP, I've still got the least HP in the party by several points. While my AC is an excellent 19, bumping to 22 when I gain momentum, my case is not the norm. Most melee voyagers will realistically be looking at 18 AC, and no Mobility to protect them from the attacks of opportunity they must incur in order to use the Voyagers class features. The small HP pool combined with the fact enemies get twice as many attacks as usual, essentially turns combats into pure luck. Either the enemies get lucky once and kill the Voyager, or they don't, and the Voyager escapes without a scratch. From my perspective, that kind of swingyness isn't particularly fun for anyone at the table.

Thus, I would propose an alternative:
Up the hitdie to d8s, then modify momentum to read as follows:
In addition, whenever a voyager gains momentum, she also adds one point of intelligence bonus (if any) per Voyager level as a dodge bonus to her AC for 1 round.

I believe that would do quite a bit to give the Voyager a bit more survivability, while reigning in the ludicrous early game AC that currently defines the class and leaving the endgame untouched.

2. As mentioned in my previous point, AC is more important for Voyager than any other class, which makes choosing to go strength a risky proposition. This focus on Dex makes not having any sort of bonus feats is crippling. For the average non-human Dex Voyager, you're looking at a minimum of 3rd level to get Dex-to-Damage (5th for ALL Voyagers if you don't have access to PoW), and another 3 levels after that to pick up the near-mandatory Dodge and Mobility combo. It makes getting Psionic Body, Fleet, Any of the Combat Maneuvers, and all those nifty feats you've written for the class that much more difficult to obtain.

I would suggest giving either Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Momentous Maneuvers, or Mobility as a bonus feat at 1st level. It has little effect on the long term power of the class, but relieves a some of the early game feat pressure, letting non-human Voyagers have a bit of wiggle room.

3. Why roll a separate initiative for Parallel Action? Taking a second turn at original count -10 maintains the flavor, but doesn't require any extra math or dice rolling.

4. It could be my own stupidity, but Voyager Knowledge is confusingly worded. I'd rewrite it as follows:
At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Voyager gains Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat.

5. Information Exchange is a neat idea, but seems under powered, and more than a little confusing, in its current form. I'd make two changes in relation to it.
First, make all Knowledges class skills for Voyagers. The class currently lacks strong out of combat utility, and is Int based, it just makes sense.
Second, rewrite Information Exchange as follows:
At 2nd level, a voyager can begin to make contact with her other selves to exchange knowledge, gaining insight into a subject that another version of herself is an expert on. The voyager chooses one knowledge skill. She gains a bonus equal to half her class level on checks with her chosen skill, and treats that skill as if she possessed a number of ranks in it equal to her Voyager class level. As a full-round action, the voyager can search her timeline in order to locate a version of herself knowledgeable in another aspect, allowing her to switch this bonus and training to a different Knowledge skill.

Despite all the comments, I do think the class is very creative, and I'm curious to see how it holds up in practice!

Deimosaur

2017-09-29, 12:04 AM

2. As mentioned in my previous point, AC is more important for Voyager than any other class, which makes choosing to go strength a risky proposition. This focus on Dex makes not having any sort of bonus feats is crippling. For the average non-human Dex Voyager, you're looking at a minimum of 3rd level to get Dex-to-Damage (5th for ALL Voyagers if you don't have access to PoW), and another 3 levels after that to pick up the near-mandatory Dodge and Mobility combo. It makes getting Psionic Body, Fleet, Any of the Combat Maneuvers, and all those nifty feats you've written for the class that much more difficult to obtain.
I don't know if Mobility is strictly necessary for the voyager. At 1st level, assisted escape is enough to get them out of normal threatened ranges. It'd be nice if you or others could elaborate on this?

But I've heard your view on how many 'core' feats may be needed (or wanted) for a voyager. I will think about it.

4. It could be my own stupidity, but Voyager Knowledge is confusingly worded. I'd rewrite it as follows:
At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the Voyager gains Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat.
I answered the reason why voyager knowledge is worded the way it is on the first page of this thread:

It'd be nice, but there's a possibility of a voyager getting a 2nd level power (etc) earlier than their 4th voyager level. From a PrC that progresses their powers, for instance.
There's a tradeoff here between immediate readability and supporting PrCs, unfortunately...

DiskElemental

2017-09-29, 12:50 AM

I don't know if Mobility is strictly necessary for the voyager. At 1st level, assisted escape is enough to get them out of normal threatened ranges. It'd be nice if you or others could elaborate on this?

It may not be, I've yet to put the class on the table. However, my mathfindering and intuition tells me that the aid-another option from Parallel Action is what keeps Voyager on par with every other 3/4 BaB 2-stat class in terms of offense, since all her compatriots have some built-in Buff (Bard Song, Judgement, etc.) to make attacks land consistently. Thus the low level Voyager is stuck choosing between hitting and dealing pitiful damage, hitting and dealing damage but taking an AoO, and probably not hitting but not taking an AoO. Of course, all of the above applies only to a situation where you're facing a single enemy without reach, or who doesn't think to trip you. In an actual combat, I'd expect other enemies, terrain, or a myriad of other circumstances to make a single 5 ft. step insufficient to avoid all AoOs.

There's a tradeoff here between immediate readability and supporting PrCs, unfortunately...
Hmm, fair point, I suppose I missed that on my read through.

What if you added: "Levels in any prestige class that advances Psionic Manifesting stacks with levels of Voyager for purposes of this ability."

OBoyd

2017-09-29, 06:58 PM

DiskElemental,

I'm curious as to why you think Dodge/Mobility are required? I have predominantly looking at higher level builds, but if I were building from 1st level I would plan on using Ranged attacks primarily at low levels. Once you hit level 3 you can attack in the middle of a teleport, so don't really need to worry about AoOs.

I do agree that the Class is going to be a bit feat starved. Another possible solution would be to switch the Expanded Knowledge every 4 levels to a Bonus Feat.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-09-29, 08:17 PM

In case anyone missed it, Parallel Action no longer provokes AoOs, making Mobility slightly less mandatory. You're still expected to move a lot in a system that would really prefer you didn't, but it's an improvement at least.

DiskElemental

2017-09-30, 01:46 AM

I'm curious as to why you think Dodge/Mobility are required? I have predominantly looking at higher level builds, but if I were building from 1st level I would plan on using Ranged attacks primarily at low levels. Once you hit level 3 you can attack in the middle of a teleport, so don't really need to worry about AoOs.

Because Switch-Hitting isn't a thing that's supported in Pathfinder, in order to hit with that Ranged attack, you're looking at a minimum of two feats (Point Blank and Precise Shot), more if you want to be effective with said attack. Teleporting is hardly a palatable solution, since requires you to spend your parallel action, which is painful at low levels for reasons already discussed, and painful thereafter because a majority of your class features are more parallel actions. In effect, the class has to give up one of its biggest unique features, just in order to not take AoOs every time it wants to deal damage.

As Dr_Dinosaur pointed out, this is a class based around moving, in a system designed to force characters to stand still.

Deimosaur

2017-09-30, 08:50 PM

Big(-ish) update. Cliff notes here, actual updates in the playtest document. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Momentum is getting changed slightly. A voyager now chooses to use momentum when making an attack, and spends all their momentum at once when doing so. Attacks enhanced by momentum now gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll (in addition to the 1d6 damage per point spent). Points of momentum are now cleared at the beginning of the voyager's parallel turn instead of her own, allowing her to build momentum with parallel actions and use it on her own turn.

Essential training added at second level, lightening the feat taxes for most builds.
Endless added at 10th, a fluffy feature regarding age. Relevant to this, an update to eternity awaits at 20th level, disallowing a future self from returning to fix a death of old age.

Galacktic

2017-09-30, 09:27 PM

Gaining Psionic Body at second level helps a ton with survivability, actually. My Voyager (level 6) gained 14 HP from that, and went from 50 to 64 at level 6. Though, they do have a Fighter dip to make them a touch more durable than they otherwise would. That's honestly more HP (and more AC/saves) than my previous previous character, too.

I'd also recommend adding Amplified Momentum and Weapon Finesse as options to it - and maybe spread out one or two extra bonus feats through it from the same list.

DiskElemental

2017-09-30, 10:17 PM

I'd be leery of giving Amplified Momentum for free, especially with the momentum changes.

Andras Zodon

2017-10-02, 05:34 PM

Will you be doing an iconic? Are you more of a Quicksilver or a Flash fan?

Deimosaur

2017-10-02, 09:20 PM

Will you be doing an iconic? Are you more of a Quicksilver or a Flash fan?
Probably. Gotta think about what I want out of it. And I decline to answer the second question. : P

Serafina

2017-10-03, 12:43 AM

So Vital Strike is obviously a very attractive feat for a class that wants to mostly attack via single attacks. And all the Voyagers abilities work with it - except one: Fast-Forward.
If you do want to change that, it could be done with some slight change in wording:
"If she does, she can make a single attack action against any target between the start and end points of the teleport".
Likewise, you could allow other modes of attack if you write in "make a single standard-action attack" instead.

Now, whether you actually want to do that is another matter, of course.
Vital Strike does ultimately not add that much damage. It could be taken at 9th level at the earliest, and would add maybe 1D10 damage or so, and Improved Vital Strike would add about the same again. There are some nice-ish feats that work off it, but ultimately nothing game-breaking.
Allowing standard-action attacks would allow things such as martial strikes, and a lot of abilities gained from various classes. Which is probably fine unless you use it with Speeding Strike and hit multiple targets. Then again, you should be careful with this just to prevent high damage-stacking, so it might be better not to do this bit.

OBoyd

2017-10-03, 11:28 AM

Duskwolf

2017-10-03, 12:45 PM

I have been very interested in this class and the progress of the playtest but I have been having a hard time making it really work. My solution, and this is merely me talking about how I plan to use it in my home game of Iron Gods which is not the average game and not meant as criticism, is to give the class exotic weapon prof firearm and a mount in the form of a psi crystal with crystalized creature to stay within the psionic meme. This seems to handle the movement issues I was dealing with during my theory crafting and making a psi crystal helps in case your mount is taken out. I was actually working with this class for sometime. I really like the class concept even if I am worried about early level survival rates, maybe give a bonus to ac vs attacks of opportunity while using momentum? The doomsayer is actually what I plan on running and will update after my game tonight, my players will have a few encounters so perhaps I will have some feedback afterwards.

Serafina

2017-10-03, 01:32 PM

Right, you can get some more damage out of Vital Strike with optimization, but it's still quite the known quantity.

As for firearms: Given that Tracer is perfect inspiration for this class, I almost expect there to be a firearms-related archetype at some point.
Until such a time, I'd honestly just take a single-level dip into Gunsmoke Mystic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/archetypes/gunsmoke-mystic/), which gives proficiency, rapid reload, the option to be independent of ammunition, and some maneuvers and a stance.

I also find this class to be a really interesting fit for a Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elf Waywatcher inspired character. Teleportation combined with ranged attacks is kinda rare to see, yet fits perfectly with skirmishing such as this. You can even flavor all the time-powers and assistance from alternate selves as forest spirits and the like.

OBoyd

2017-10-03, 01:35 PM

DuskWolf

The Voyager already gets to add her INT bonus to AC for 1 round after gaining Momentum. A first level Voyager can easily have an 21 AC almost every round. At 2nd/3rd level she'll likely have as many HP as a fighter as well.

OBoyd

2017-10-03, 09:57 PM

Big(-ish) update. Cliff notes here, actual updates in the playtest document. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Essential training added at second level, lightening the feat taxes for most builds.

I would suggest replacing Psionic Body with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack or both. At 2nd level Psionic Body gives a minimum of 6 HP which gives the Voyager the same average HP as a Fighter and potentially an extra 10 HP (1 more than the average Barbarian).

I think going to a D8 would be a better solution to the low level fragility.

Lord_Gareth

2017-10-04, 12:17 AM

I would suggest replacing Psionic Body with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack or both. At 2nd level Psionic Body gives a minimum of 6 HP which gives the Voyager the same average HP as a Fighter and potentially an extra 10 HP (1 more than the average Barbarian).

I think going to a D8 would be a better solution to the low level fragility.

D8 is 2 hit points more at first level, and 1.5 hit points on average each level thereafter. Folks seem rather hung up over what is objectively a very small difference.

Duskwolf

2017-10-04, 10:31 AM

Yes on the int to ac via momentum, thank you I saw that but honestly had not really worked it to see how effective it was. MY experiences last night, brief though it was, has reaffirmed my faith in dsp which had shaken a bit because of my dislike for the Highlord. The base class seems great enough, and with multi class/gestalt goodness it really shines, the build possibility are staggering. A couple of things, a dip into gunsmoke mystic is actually rather fantastic for only a slight setback (really wish for a variant that uses int) and I suppose harbringer (base, omen rider and edgelord) would all be quite tasty as well. A few questions if I may? Path of war strikes and such can be used with/during momentum? if you have sneak attack could you apply it? How would such standard actions alchemist explosive missile be handled? is there planned a student of the astral suit type feat or trait to class out or prc and keep your momentum damage and accelerate advancement?

Honestly this class me more interested than many I have seen or played in a while. I wish we had a bit more bonus feats and a wider array of powers ( I know the ones chosen fit the class and we get expanded knowledge) but despite my initial glass cannon concerns, I really like the class and think it has a distinct feel.

OBoyd

2017-10-04, 06:39 PM

D8 is 2 hit points more at first level, and 1.5 hit points on average each level thereafter. Folks seem rather hung up over what is objectively a very small difference.

Agreed. I do think 6-10 extra "free" HP is too good at 2nd level and should be rethought.

Honestly though, I'd rather see this class with a D6, no free Psionic Body and full caster progression (mainly because I really think it should have access to Divert Teleport, Fission and a couple of additional powers). Failing that, then the additional PP and a condensed list like the Summoner has where it gets some powers a power level or two early.

Galacktic

2017-10-04, 06:42 PM

So when the Voyager uses Speeding Strike and is staggered, does that have any effect on their parallel turn? IE could they just use Speeding Strike again by spending their action on readying it?

Deimosaur

2017-10-04, 07:47 PM

Power Cycle has been divvied up a bit. The new Kinetic Wave comes online at 8th level, providing some AoE damage potential to savvy voyagers without requiring a branched path. Power Cycle remains at 9th level and has had wording made more clear.

So when the Voyager uses Speeding Strike and is staggered, does that have any effect on their parallel turn? IE could they just use Speeding Strike again by spending their action on readying it?
I believe so. They'd spend their next round staggered too, though.

Deimosaur

2017-10-05, 01:47 PM

Update!

Two new archetypes:
The crossfire (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit#heading=h.y6ii039czyll), who mixes a voyager's time shenanigans with firearms.

The timekeeper (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit#heading=h.2xgvqsg9bh50), who eschews momentum for the ability to further control events that take place around him.

I've reordered the archetype list into alphabetical order for now, though I'm not opposed to keeping them in a different order. Smallest to largest, less complicated to most complicated?

Duskwolf

2017-10-05, 03:01 PM

Yea, as to the crossfire archetype. No thank you, you give up a lot for very little. Still unsure about timekeeper but giving up momentum hurts.

OBoyd

2017-10-05, 04:02 PM

Yea, as to the crossfire archetype. No thank you, you give up a lot for very little. Still unsure about timekeeper but giving up momentum hurts.

I may be missing something, but as I'm reading it the Crossfire is given up 10-15' of movement, the ability to aid herself, 1 martial weapon proficiency, and shield proficiency for prof. with all firearms, a gun, gunsmithing, and the ability to load or fix his firearm for free.

AlienFromBeyond

2017-10-05, 04:06 PM

Crossfire seems kind of lame and boring. I was hoping for something like Momentum is based on the distance traveled by the bullet instead of your movement, with ricochet type stuff, or really just anything that interacts with the gun more. Was expecting something like a Voyager + Marksman (Kaigun) hybrid I guess.

Timekeeper is pretty interesting though, turning the class into much more of a support role. I question what it can do on its turn without Momentum however, I guess stick to focusing on manifesting powers a lot more? It doesn't really have the PP for that since it has the same base amount as Psychic Warrior, so maybe it should get extra PP to handle all the extra manifesting it wants to do. At the same time, Bottled Moment really doesn't want you chain manifest powers because of the limiter it has until level 17, which puts a massive damper on that plan, so maybe I'm looking at it all wrong for what a Timekeeper is supposed to be actively doing in a fight.

Deimosaur

2017-10-05, 04:42 PM

Oh, a new page. Another link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing) for convenience's sake.

Hm, a few things.

The crossfire as-written was designed to be able to function with other archetypes. After writing that fluff and seeing your expectations though...I'll think about it. I have some ideas I want to try.

For now, I'd like to see how the 'base' package functions (in combination with other archetypes or not).

Yea, as to the crossfire archetype. No thank you, you give up a lot for very little. Still unsure about timekeeper but giving up momentum hurts.

I may be missing something, but as I'm reading it the Crossfire is given up 10-15' of movement, the ability to aid herself, 1 martial weapon proficiency, and shield proficiency for prof. with all firearms, a gun, gunsmithing, and the ability to load or fix his firearm for free.
Minor correction: The crossfire isn't giving up her ability to aid another herself. She trades out helping hand, which normally allows a voyager to interact with objects on her parallel action.

Timekeeper is pretty interesting though, turning the class into much more of a support role. I question what it can do on its turn without Momentum however, I guess stick to focusing on manifesting powers a lot more? It doesn't really have the PP for that since it has the same base amount as Psychic Warrior, so maybe it should get extra PP to handle all the extra manifesting it wants to do. At the same time, Bottled Moment really doesn't want you chain manifest powers because of the limiter it has until level 17, which puts a massive damper on that plan, so maybe I'm looking at it all wrong for what a Timekeeper is supposed to be actively doing in a fight.
Noted, I'll think about it.

Duskwolf

2017-10-05, 04:54 PM

Ahh I see my mistake, I read the archetype as giving up all your parallel actions for a more pricey quick clear. Okay, better, might be fun to make it compatible with doomsayer which I think it is not. Previous poster made a good point, giving more pp and either a full 9 progression( limited) or a compressed progression ala summoner would be fantastic. I am very much a fan of the class and working at the best ways to include maneuvers. I would like to know how the weapon attack part of fast forward ( and speeding strike) is defined , can I use a sneak attack? A strike? A psionic power such as energy shard with power channeler? Would it apply to just one target of speeding strike or all? I know, it should not need any help, it plays well on it's own but I am fan of multi classing and similar mayhem, or as my friend calls it, silliness.

Mezzaluna

2017-10-06, 06:19 AM

Minor correction: The crossfire isn't giving up her ability to aid another herself. She trades out helping hand, which normally allows a voyager to interact with objects on her parallel action.

I'd actually prefer if they gave up the Aid Another and kept their Quantum Mage Hand.
When they're hitting touch AC from range they don't need that Aid Another in combat, while remote object interaction is a fun utility trick that I'd appreciate having out of fights.

Prime32

2017-10-06, 12:44 PM

Agreed with that. Also, they should have a class feature called "Bullet Time"; I don't care what it does. :smalltongue:

It would be nice to get extra support for running between sources of cover. Maybe Shot on the Run, and/or an ability that lets you retain the benefit of cover as long as you had cover at the start of your turn?

Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat/) might be a good fit for videogame-style "slow time for a moment so you can shoot precisely a bunch of times".

Another way to increase compatibility with other archetypes would be by granting some of these abilities through powers. E.g. "At 4th level a crossfire adds kinetic reload (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/k/kinetic-reload) to her powers known. This replaces the power normally learned at 4th level."

Otherwise, you could just go with a multiclass feat, something like:

Crossfire (Grit, Psionic)
Prerequisites: Grit and Parallel Action class features
Benefit: On your parallel turn, you may either reduce the action required for your next deed from 1 full-round action to 1 standard action, or perform the Quick Clear or Utility Shot deeds if you have them. Whenever you perform the Gunslinger's Dodge deed you also gain momentum equal to half your voyager level (minimum 1).

DiskElemental

2017-10-06, 01:05 PM

I'd actually been trying my hand at making a gun using archetype for Voyager, but since it looks like there's an official one, I suppose I'll stop working on it.

For anyone interested, here's the link: pastebin.com/PTw9Jg6E (Have to open it manually because GitP is asinine and won't allow links)

Caeserion

2017-10-06, 02:29 PM

Finally a class that will work with the Elocator! I've one built as a Voyager5/Elocator7 that has a movement of 90ft. The problem I have is the momentum stopping with class level. I know changing it to character level will make the class a super dip class. How about a feat that will allow Elocator's level to stack with Voyager's level for determining how much momentum you can have at a given time?

Deimosaur

2017-10-06, 03:45 PM

So, the crossfire's been updated.

This is a...rather experimental option, at least for me.

In addition to the above adjustments, a voyager with the crossfire archetype may select from any of the following alternate class features by altering or exchanging them with the listed voyager base class feature. For example, a voyager with the crossfire archetype may take kinetic snipe, losing kinetic wave.
A crossfire can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base voyager class as those altered or exchanged by the crossfire archetype.
The crossfire has the choice of upping her arsenal of gun-related parallel actions and class abilities. She can take none, some, or all of the additional options listed here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit#heading=h.tfelnt90vxye). This leaves the possibility of a crossfire timekeeper, a 'crossfire-lite' that values mobility and keeps some more of the base voyager abilities, or a full-on crossfire.

Andras Zodon

2017-10-06, 05:00 PM

Crossfire is decently integrated, and while I would certainly take it if I wanted to go-fast with guns, I'm afraid to say it doesn't seem interesting enough to make me want to play a gofastgunner just to try it. Timekeeper on the other hand is quite interesting! Seems like more of a support role than the glass cannon damage dealer archetype the Voyager normally embodies. Hard to say how it works in practice, but potentially very well if used judiciously.

Air0r

2017-10-06, 05:03 PM

So, the crossfire's been updated.

This is a...rather experimental option, at least for me.

The crossfire has the choice of upping her arsenal of gun-related parallel actions and class abilities. She can take none, some, or all of the additional options listed here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit#heading=h.tfelnt90vxye). This leaves the possibility of a crossfire doomsayer or timekeeper, a 'crossfire-lite' that values mobility and keeps some more of the base voyager abilities, or a full-on crossfire.

I like this. also, I second the elocater thing.

OBoyd

2017-10-06, 08:55 PM

Andras Zodon

2017-10-06, 09:53 PM

I like the Elocater from a flavor standpoint, but even with that feat I think you give up to much.

Psionic Body is ridiculous with this class. Eight free Psionic feats is bad enough, but with a human or psionic race you could potentially have 19! 38 extra HP would put the Voyager just 6 points less than a fighter over 20 levels.

Hey man, I really think you're overblowing it with this HP thing, and the feats too. I'm pretty sure Voyager's in a pretty decent place currently.

OBoyd

2017-10-06, 10:52 PM

That could well be the case. If it's a deliberate design choice, I am okay with it. It seems odd to me that the three build paths for a Mobility based class would be Combat Maneuvers, Ranged Cbt. and Tank...

I'd rather they got Power Attack, Weapon Finesse or both as options for the free feat. My initial impression (along with a couple of other posters) was that they were a bit squishy. I no longer see them that way. I'd personally rather see them as Tactician or Summoner level casters (without the free Expanded Knowledges), but am eager to try one either way.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-06, 11:26 PM

The timekeeper is odd due to being the only character in the entire game that can earn extra information on Knowledge in general against creatures and objects. Should this mechanic not be handled another way?

Duskwolf

2017-10-07, 08:53 AM

Crossfire looks great and I love the flex options. The only thing I could think to add at this moment is having rapid reload part of firearm assistance, maybe while focused? Oh and yes please on momentum based on character level, would make my dream voyager with manuvers so much the better. I am currently dming but next pathfinder game I play I would only play a voyager. Beautifully done, even if still a playtest.

Domar

2017-10-07, 01:19 PM

Some momentum advancement for multiclassing would be nice. Perhaps Voyager level plus half non Voyager levels to a max of twice your Voyager level. Or a sidebar that says Path of the Warrior from the Awakened Blade can advance momentum and add defensive precognition and offensive precognition to the power list.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-10-07, 10:14 PM

I love Crossfire as a Qinngong-style archetype and think Psionic Body is a really clever way of beefing the class up despite its low HD. Unfortunately, I'm stuck DM-ing so no chance of playtesting.

Deimosaur

2017-10-07, 10:20 PM

We've revised Essential Training (now named Parallel Training, and granting more feats at additional levels). Instead of feats aimed at mechanical boosts, it now has a more varied selection of niche options. As there are now more instances of bonus feats throughout the class, Up The Walls has been taken off of Accelerate and added to this list.

Overall, the lower Hit Die of the class is meant to make them slightly squishier (admittedly by only 2 hit points at first level and 1 hit point on average per level after that), with strong non-hit point defensive abilities. We found that Psionic Body being given for free was overly centralizing and counter to the design goals of the class. Characters who want to be more durable can still take the feat normally (repeatedly, even), but it's no longer on the bonus feat list.

This list is not intended to include direct improvements in numbers, or to enable standard builds. Rather, these are intended feat options that would normally not be 100% optimal to take, but are enjoyable to play around and cause a voyager to play in a more unique manner. Pursuing Psionic Body for durability, Precise Shot for ranged builds, etc, can be done with the feats a character gains normally.

Expect some archetypes to fiddle with this list as well.

Also, the voyager's power list has been slightly updated.

Some momentum advancement for multiclassing would be nice. Perhaps Voyager level plus half non Voyager levels to a max of twice your Voyager level. Or a sidebar that says Path of the Warrior from the Awakened Blade can advance momentum and add defensive precognition and offensive precognition to the power list.
Similar to the wilder and other psionic classes, the following text has been added to the playtest document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing):

Voyagers and Prestige Classes
Prestige classes that advance manifesting can advance voyager momentum. At each level where a class would progress a voyager's manifester level by one, treat her as if she had gained a class level for the purposes of the maximum damage dice and momentum points of her momentum class feature. She does not gain any other benefits she may have gained from an increased level (such as branching paths, speed increases, or parallel actions).

Duskwolf

2017-10-08, 12:29 AM

Yea could perhaps get precise shot back. Getting it without the pbs prerequisite was really helpful. Not to sound ungrateful but... It went a long way to helping getting to a good firearm build a bit faster.

Andras Zodon

2017-10-08, 11:59 PM

At any time when you need to maintain psionic focus such an ability, you can use this psionic focus instead.

I think you forgot a "with" here?

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-10, 02:14 AM

Focused Swiftness seems like a low-cost ticket into "while you are psionically focused" abilities, when Psicrystal Containment and Deep Focus take more of an investment.

Did I miss something, or is a voyager still encouraged to move back and forth between two squares and then fire a bow? Well, with the exception of orc-subtyped voyagers, who can cheese out charge damage.

Deimosaur

2017-10-11, 09:39 PM

Very parallel action-heavy update, with a side order of archetypes.
Parallel Actions:
To avoid rather awkward interactions with certain traits and feats, accomplished accomplice now scales on its own and ignores normal bonuses gained from Aid Another.
Combo Strike now features a whitelist of combat maneuvers usable with an attack.
Fast-forward has been reworked, allowing team play along with its initial focus on movement.
Rewind now gives a bonus to AC + saves instead of miss chance.
Pause has has rules and wording consistent with the new fast-forward.
Foreshadow now works on additional types of movement that normally necessitate moving in straight lines.

Archetypes:
The crossfire can opt into Gunfire Training, which replaces Parallel Training.
The timekeeper gains Temporal Manifesting instead of Voyager Knowledge, better enabling a manifesting-centric playstyle. Instead of gaining bonus powers from timekeeper knowledge, the timekeeper simply adds those extra powers to the list of powers he can normally learn.

OBoyd

2017-10-12, 05:22 PM

Ikiry0

2017-10-14, 11:48 PM

It seems rather overturned on both offence and defence, especially at pre-6 levels (When no one has iterative attacks).

It's rather trivial for them to have 27 AC at level 1 (Getting 2 stats AND light armour AND shields) as well as a higher attack bonus than a full BAB class (With the +2 on top of the +2 from charging and +1d6 damage a level meaning that it hits ungodly hard until you start getting full attacks with actual secondary attacks.). If you want it to have 2x stat to AC you might want to remove the ability to actually wear armour, especially when that bonus is a Dodge bonus as they stack with literally everything.

It seems, as a whole, to not really be a class with any weaknesses. It's low HP is counteracted by the fact that you can teleport away from any effect in the game for a hefty bonus to AC and all saves (Rewind) and doing so will likely put you out of range of any melee character's follow up attacks (Or any ranged attacker if the battlefield has anywhere to get full cover and leave your invisible teleport beacons).

I really like the idea of the class but it feels like it could really do with a toning down.

Deimosaur

2017-10-15, 10:23 PM

Okay, more updates dropping. The goal here is to cut the extraneous power for an individual voyager, and to make choices more meaningful while character building.

Momentum: While a voyager has momentum, she gains scaling defenses (AC and Reflex) based on how much she has (capped at her Intelligence modifier). This replaces the dodge bonus she gained from simply gaining momentum in a round.
The Amplified Momentum feat can now be used to gain this dodge bonus (which stacks with the bonus from momentum, up to the normal cap + 2).
Momentum now resets at the start of her turn instead of the start of her parallel action's turn, and instead of losing gathered momentum entirely, the voyager loses half of their momentum at the beginning of each of her turns.
This gives the voyager a reason to track momentum outside of her offense. Rather than simply fulfilling a requirement (move 10 feet), she has some incentive to gain momentum after her attack (or to not spend her momentum on attacks every round, if she is unable to gain any afterwards) in order to keep some defenses. This makes moving -> attacking -> moving more appealing, if she have the appropriate feats or abilities to do so. The momentum she gains after her attack essentially becomes her defense.

Parallel Actions: A voyager now learns one of the parallel actions at each listed level. A feat allows her to gain access to the others.
Branched Paths: Now allows the voyager to pick up some of the other parallel actions gained at 3rd level, and then to gain a branched path ability of a parallel action they already know.
Backtrack is now a feat that allows you to gain a parallel action from a listed level beneath your class level.
Road Less Traveled has been added, as a feat with Backtrack's old functionality.
The burden of knowledge for a voyager PC was - and still is, somewhat - rather high. There is just so much a specific voyager can do without investing much into it, and cutting that up so players can focus on the actions that interest them is a step to making the class manageable. If they want more parallel actions of a given level, they can invest feats into gaining them.

And as a followup to the last mass parallel action update and this one, many parallel actions have been adjusted accordingly:
All voyaers gain the helping hand parallel action at 1st level.
The ranges of several parallel actions has gone down to adjacent - however, the voyager can treat the space her afterimage occupies as a vector for her parallel actions.
Afterimage: The voyager gains a 3rd level ability called afterimage, taking some of the functionality of rewind and moving it to the main class.
The "on-target" cooldowns on fast-forward and pause have been removed. Also, several other parallel actions can now be used to help allies as well as herself.
The rewind ability has been somewhat reworked, as afterimage has been made a baseline ability.
Pause can now affect the voyager and a creature adjacent to her, and causes the voyager to retain her momentum for her next round.
The afterimage ability at 3rd level helps to effectively extend the reach of parallel actions. This limit helped me feel more comfortable with change down below. Each individual action can be somewhat more versatile, rather than the rather odd and finicky 'cooldown cycling' potential the voyager had before.

The doomsayer is the archetype most affected by these changes and has received changes to their parallel actions, similar to the voyager's.

Techbaron

2017-10-16, 03:22 PM

In this post, I'll give my feedback on the update to Voyager and the Voyager overall, going over each part in turn.

Momentum: The changing of momentum does incentivize "move, attack, move" as the optimal way for Voyagers to both push out their damage and retain their defenses. Because of this change, the Fast Forward parallel action becomes the best choice for a Voyager to use from level 3 onwards, aside from very specific situations, as it allows a Voyager to accomplish this "move, attack, move" easily. Rewind, while allowing the Voyager to move further, only activates on the Parallel Action 'turn' and so leaves the Voyager without Momentum to boost their defenses against any opponents' attacks between their and the Parallel Action's initiative. Pause, as it allows someone to maintain momentum into their next turn, incentivizes "attack, move; next turn: attack, move; repeat" which is, in my opinion, slightly more complicated, but is likely better than Rewind.

Speaking to the broader perspective, the defenses that Momentum grants cap out at level 2, for most characters, (with their Int mod being at +4), with the exception of if their Int is temporarily boosted, most likely with Fox's Cunning. For most Voyagers, moving 20 feet will max out the defenses granted by Momentum, which reinforces Fast-Forward as the best option for most Voyagers, whether Melee or Ranged. Ways to boost Int such as Fox's Cunning or a Headband conveniently improve Fast-Forward's bonus as well, keeping that parallel action extremely useful.

Afterimage: I think bringing it out of the parallel actions was a good idea. Many parallel actions don't make use of it, however. I am still working out my thoughts on it.

Kinetic Wave: This ability seems fine. However, the limitation of having to expend focus, means that for many Voyagers, this is only something that would be used once in a combat. Dealing momentum damage to multiple targets can be strong, but around 9th level is where Voyagers will start having trouble maxing out their Momentum.

Parallel Actions

1st Level Parallel Actions: Accomplished Accomplice and Assisted Escape seem like the strongest options at this level. Accomplished Accomplice for its potential to further increase a Voyager's AC or attack bonus, and Assisted Escape for its maintenance of Momentum between rounds. Assisted Escape becomes especially useful at later levels for a Voyager, when capping out Momentum will tend to require the spending of several power points to boost movement speed. Combo Strike is, of course, useful, but does not aid in direct survival like the other two.

3rd Level Parallel Actions: As stated above, I believe Fast-Forward to be the clear winner at this level, with Pause and Rewind after it. Rewind I believe to be better at the lower levels of Voyager, while Pause is better at the later levels as Momentum becomes more difficult/expensive to cap out each round.

(I'll add more to this post later.)

Domar

2017-10-16, 03:38 PM

Sanctity of Speed has repeated text.

Creatures are allowed a Reflex save to for half damage. Creatures within this area can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the voyager’s class level + the voyager’s Intelligence modifier) to take half damage.

Deimosaur

2017-10-16, 03:54 PM

MilleniaAntares

2017-10-21, 02:08 AM

Does the afterimage made by the Bookmark feat stay on a moving vehicle (ship, spaceship, airship, landship), or does it stay with the position in the ocean/air/land?

Galacktic

2017-10-21, 01:13 PM

A question myself! Does being staggered (IE from some of the Doomsayer's parallel actions) does that influence their parallel actions at all, or just their normal ones?

Deimosaur

2017-10-21, 03:27 PM

Does the afterimage made by the Bookmark feat stay on a moving vehicle (ship, spaceship, airship, landship), or does it stay with the position in the ocean/air/land?
I would say no, but really any answer leads to very awkward conclusions if further explored. Rather similar to discussions of what happens if you cast an area spell with a duration on a moving object.

A question myself! Does being staggered (IE from some of the Doomsayer's parallel actions) does that influence their parallel actions at all, or just their normal ones?
Being staggered does not hinder parallel actions in the slightest.

Regarding the doomsayer: A new parallel action has been added to replace assisted escape. The doomsayer now can choose a unique replacement for all of the level 1 parallel actions (besides helping hand).

MilleniaAntares

2017-10-21, 04:02 PM

I would say no, but really any answer leads to very awkward conclusions if further explored. Rather similar to discussions of what happens if you cast an area spell with a duration on a moving object.
You could put in a "choose frame of reference" clause or something, though I suppose that also comes with its own (likely suicidal) awkwardness when people choose "the sun" or "the galaxy's center" (depending on the plane's structure).

Deimosaur

2017-10-30, 06:27 PM

Big changes are incoming. Link here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing), as befits a new page.

Over the course of this playtest, we’ve gotten a lot of feedback on the playstyle of the voyager—how it optimally plays, and how it feels to play—and in response, we’re making some pretty big changes.

To make a long story short, the changes we’re making are about emphasizing the voyager’s duality as a speedster martial class and as a manifester. In many cases and builds, their powers seemed to be taking a back seat to parallel actions and possible full attacks, especially in the case of Speeding Strike. To help balance the class better, as well as to open up more variety in both builds and gameplay.

So let’s go over what’s changed:
The biggest difference you’ll notice in the voyager doc is the addition of a new, important class feature that replaced branching paths. Called Manifestation of Speed, this ability allows the voyager to spend both power points and momentum on a variety of different abilities in combat.

The core of the ability is the augmented attack. An augmented attack is a standard action, whose basic function is to to turn momentum into movement, or power points into teleportation, each alongside an attack with your weapon. The maximum amount of power points spent on the ability at once is equal to your ML, which is important to its later functions.

At 5th level, the most important part of the ability comes online: as part of making an augmented attack, a voyager can manifest a single-target voyager power they know on the creature they’re attacking. This doesn’t provoke AoOs, and its attack is added to the hit itself, similarly (but not identically) to the magus’s spellstrike.

The reason for this addition is that, overall, the voyager previously has not been doing much with its psionics. It’s a manifester, more than just a normal warrior, and its abilities were meant to (but failed to) reflect that. By tying the psionics more deeply into the voyager’s mobile-skirmisher combat style, and allowing them to both attack [i]and manifest, we hope they blend swordplay and psionics a bit better. Or bow usage, gunslinging, and the like—the power does not need to be the same sort of delivery as the attack; you can use this to shoot melee powers at people, hit people with ranged powers, and anything in-between. We’ve loaded up the voyager list with more options to help accomplish that.

Though speaking of new powers, that brings us to the next parts of Manifestation of Speed. At 9th level, the voyager unlocks lightning focus, which lets them transform momentum into psionically refocusing themselves, and can now use a personal power on themselves with power channel. At 13th and 17th levels, they unlock multitask and greater multitask, respectively.

These abilities, like power channel, are meant to help the voyager become a true combat manifester. During their augmented attacks, they allow the voyager to manifest more powers than just single-target ones, and even multiple powers at once, albeit limited: they can’t spend more power points total than their manifester level on these powers, but within that limit, they can mix and match abilities how they please. This means that a 13th-level voyager can trade a bunch of momentum for a particularly unique action economy, using their time-enhanced speed to manifest two powers at once during their attack. Then, at 17th level, the voyager can manifest three powers at once. Potentially more, if they went all-out with Quicken and Hustle powers, actually.

Our hope is that these abilities get the voyager to a place where it can be a speed-based manifesting gish class. They’re not purely martial, nor purely caster, but ideally, the options on their power list, and versatility with augmented strikes, lets them accomplish a good mix of both in any given combat.
The voyager power list, previously very small, has been expanded to a size similar to the psychic warrior’s. Our goal with this is to have a healthy mix of combat buffs/utility, debuffs and enemy-targeting effects, and noncombat utility at any given level, allowing the voyager to pick and choose how focused on any given task they want to be, then realize that focus using augmented attacks.
In addition, we’ve updated the look of the power list in the playtest doc, which should hopefully make it easier to parse. The powers now include their short descriptions and links to their effects on the d20pfsrd. The single-target powers on the list have also been marked as such, to make them quicker to skim through when looking for power channel options.

Finally, don’t forget that even with this expanded list, the voyager still has Voyager Knowledge, letting them poach powers from other lists. If you want your voyager to be focused on mind control, or elemental blasting, or some other niche, the new abilities should help you create that sort of character.
With that all said, these new changes did involve removing some of the existing abilities. Branching Paths, Kinetic Wave, Power Cycle, and Parallel Training have all be taken off of the current voyager chassis. As it was, the model used for Branching Paths encouraged a playstyle of focusing heavily on one specific trick, to the exclusion of other things. While voyagers could use other options, the question we heard a lot is “why bother?”

Fast-Forward and Speeding Strike were overcentralizing, and the effects of the other branched paths, when taken in isolation, didn’t manage to carry the class as a versatile combat-psionicist. Most of the effects of the old Branching Paths can be found somewhere in their powers list, but as far as the voyager’s progression of abilities, we wanted to tie it more on their identity as a psionic class.
Power Cycle, Kinetic Wave, and Parallel Training were all, effectively, iterations of what is now Manifestation of Speed. The goal with these abilities were to give the voyager a reason to use their powers actively and expand their combat variety, which Manifestation of Speed should now, ideally, do.

One final thing: with the changes to Branching Paths and the new abilities added to the base class, the Doomsayer and Timekeeper archetype have become incompatible and slightly problematic with the current design of the class. We’re temporarily removing them from the public playtest so they can be revised and revisited at a later date.
The following abilities have been removed:

Parallel training
Branching paths
Kinetic wave
Power cycle

The following abilities have been added:

Manifestation of speed ([i]blink, dash, power channel, multitask and greater multitask.
The voyager power list has been greatly expanded.
New parallel actions at 7th, 11th, and 15th level have been added, called dual threat (7th), keep watch (11th), and emergency stasis (15th).

The following abilities have been changed:

Momentum has been changed slightly; you can now split up how much momentum you spend on any given attack, keeping some in reserve.
The fast-forward parallel action has been nerfed; it no longer includes the teleport-attack option. Instead, that can be found in manifestation of speed. It also no longer has the “discharge speed bonus to teleport,” which turned out to do way too much for its cost.
The parallel manifesting parallel action now has a ML-boosting effect, in addition to the current abilities.
Look both ways (moved up one level to 6th, and granted expanded utility).
Fate in flux now allows the voyager to change which parallel actions she knows.
The elf and dwarf racial favored class options have been revised to be less focused on damage. The orc one has been removed for the time being.

Finally, the doomsayer and timekeeper archetypes have been removed from the public document so they can be reworked to account for the new voyager abilities.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-30, 06:58 PM

I dare say that the voyager, for all of the "magus except more versatile" upgrades to its flexibility it has received, has been significantly downgraded. Branching paths were quite strong for how spammy they were, and the dwarf/elf/orc FCBs were quite strong.

The voyager's playstyle is quite interesting now, but I am a little disappointed by how much of a direct hit to its power the class has taken. Spending momentum just to channel a voyager power into an attack, magus-style, simply is not as potent as dumping all of that momentum into a speeding strike bolstered by the dwarf/elf/orc FCB.

I worry that a voyager will have a hard time keeping up with other tier 3s who offer both strong killing power and noncombat utility, like a classic archer inquisitor with the conversion inquisition.

It would have been nice to preserve the original power level of speeding strike with the dwarf/elf/orc FCB (possibly by integrating such things into the class itself) while introducing new flexibility.

Power Channel: By spending 3 points of momentum, the voyager can manifest a voyager power (spending power points normally) with a manifesting time of 1 standard action or less. The power manifested must be a non-personal power that normally has a single target, including touch powers and rays. If her weapon attack hits, it applies the power’s normal effect (if the power normally involves an attack roll and has effects on a miss, it will likewise apply them on a miss). If the weapon attack made as part of an augmented attack targets multiple creatures, the voyager chooses one target to affect with the power out of those that the attack hit. A critical hit with her weapon attack does not cause the power to also critical hit.

This, right here, is my main grievance with the new voyager. What powers are you actually going to use through this?

Suppose you are a 6th-level voyager with Amplified Momentum, which is all but a mandatory feat for voyagers by 5th level. Previously, you would have been able to hit enemies hard with speeding strike and the dwarf/elf/orc FCB, but now, you can do... what, exactly?

You spend 3 momentum to activate power channel, effectively losing out on 3d6+3 (average 13.5) damage from momentum and amplified momentum. In exchange, you can spend power points to manifest... what, exactly? What could you possibly manifest using this ability that could make up for losing 13.5 average damage, no questions asked, no power points needed?

I suppose a voyager could spend 6 power points on a dissipating touch for 6d6 damage, but that is an average of 21 damage, so the voyager has effectively spent 6 power points for +7.5 damage, which is terrible. Deep crystal weapons are more cost-effective than that.

Dissipating touch is more appealing as the levels rise, but there needs to be something more immediately appealing for 5th- or 6th-level voyager than that, lest the new voyager turn into "speedy magus: less shocks and more dissipation: now with less cost-effectiveness."

...

Then again, it seems that the voyager now treats powers from Expanded Knowledge as voyager powers.

Therefore that there is a way to redeem power channel as a 5th- or 6th-level voyager, but it requires something very specific: the Split Psionic Ray metapsionic feat and Expanded Knowledge (energy ray).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/split-psionic-ray-metapsionic

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/energy-ray

The 6th-level voyager attacks, expends 3 momentum, incinerates their psionic focus, spends 6 power points, and tries to obliterate an enemy with their attack's damage and with two instances of 4d6+4 (average 18) cold damage.

That is not bad at all, but... why should the voyager actually bother using power channel? They could just gain momentum from movement and then spend that momentum on a Split Psionic (Energy) Ray. That would be more accurate due to the touch attack, and it would save 3 momentum, which could then become 3d6+3 (average 13.5) damage.

Of course, the problem here is that Split Psionic Ray requires another metapsionic feat... so it could be that the 6th-level voyager will have to settle for a regular energy ray for 6d6+6 (average 27) damage. What I am saying is that energy ray is currently a nigh-mandatory pick for a voyager's first Expanded Knowledge. Perhaps the voyager should have special powers tailored for it and restricted to it, just like the highlord?

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-10-30, 09:20 PM

I am still not entirely convinced that these are fair prices given how important momentum is to a voyager and how much raw damage and defense it can confer, but it is nice to see that Deimosaur has toned down some momentum prices for the voyager's manifestation of speed.

Also, the prestige class section still mentions "branching paths."

TiaC

2017-10-31, 09:39 PM

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-01, 01:23 AM

I'm worried about the voyager's endurance. This round of changes pushes them to manifest a lot more, but they still have very few PP and no way of mitigating costs in the way many other 6th-level manifesters who are expected to manifest often do.

I would like to echo this concern. The new voyager is supposed to be "the magus: speedy edition: hopefully more versatile too," but it lacks the magus's spell recall and its fake-spellstrike comes with a price and a lack of critical multiplication. Does this not make its fake-spellstrike both weaker and more likely to tap the voyager out of power points?

To illustrate this point, consider a generic 5th-level magus. A 1st-level spell pumps out 5d6 electricity damage with shocking grasp, and that also comes with an attack roll bonus against many enemies, as well as the potential to land a critical hit with the electricity damage.

A 5th-level voyager pays 5 power points (the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell) for a cold or fire energy ray for 5d6+5 damage. That deals 5 more damage... but the voyager has had to pay 2 momentum (worth 2d6+2 damage given Amplified Momentum) for it. The voyager receives no attack roll bonus for it, and the voyager cannot multiply it with a critical hit.

And the voyager still lacks spell recall.

As a voyager, why bother with power channel in the first place? Why not simply manifest, say, an energy ray (preferably with Split Psionic Ray) the regular way and spend the momentum on that? Surely, that would save the voyager 2 momentum which can become 2d6+2 damage with Amplified Momentum, and it would let the voyager target touch AC.

Split Psionic Ray is a major upgrade to a voyager's burst damage output... once they can afford the feats for it. Before then, energy ray is not especially cost-effective compared to a shocking grasp.

angelpalm

2017-11-01, 02:59 AM

meh I guess at this point I really should just start using hidden blade as a martial template for classes such as cryptic and ninja.

If anything I'd rather see existing powers revamped so that they scaled more with level and were replaced with other effects. There are still way too many dupes left over from 3.5. I mean do we really need both Biofeedback AND Inertial Barrier. I already made it so biofeedback actually worked in a manner that was in line with it's name in that you controlled your heart rate and pain receptors so you gained a +4 bonus against fear/demoralization effects as well as pain/emotion based powers/spells. Spend 2 pp to increase the bonus by +2 and and additional 2 pp for actual immunity. Then of course Inertial barrier got put in the spot that Biofeedback was in but just reduced it's power but gave it options to increase duration and added the other rider effect after you increased your dr to 5/-.

Bleh, didn't mean to derail the thread. Carry on.

Deimosaur

2017-11-01, 07:03 PM

I'm worried about the voyager's endurance. This round of changes pushes them to manifest a lot more, but they still have very few PP and no way of mitigating costs in the way many other 6th-level manifesters who are expected to manifest often do.
Very noted here. I'll look into this (and other concerns that have been raised here).

It's worth saying that, while writing this, I had the thought that voyagers need not use the power-point spending parts of manifestation of speed (or, possibly, any parts of manifestation of speed at all) every round. If giving up 2d6 damage in order to manifest a damage-dealing power isn't appealing, you could not spend the points and use the enhanced attack as-is. Or look into the other powers that are usable. Raw damage is not the only possibility here!

Hopefully.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-03, 02:20 PM

Why did the voyager have to lose its bonus feats? Those were flavorful combat ribbons.

Rewind (3rd level): The voyager can use her parallel turn to pull herself back to an afterimage of herself, teleporting herself from her current location to her afterimage. As an immediate action, the voyager can expend her psionic focus in order to immediately return to her afterimage. Doing so in response to an attack or ability grants her a bonus equal to 1 + 1/3 of her class level to her AC and on saving throws against the attack or ability. A successful hit or a failed save means that she teleported too late and was affected normally. Using this parallel action preserves the voyager’s momentum; at the beginning of the voyager’s next turn, she does not lose any gathered points of momentum."

Wait a minute; how is this an immediate action if this is a parallel action? Does a voyager have to dedicate both their parallel action and an immediate action to this? Can you use it as a parallel action or an immediate action?

Galacktic

2017-11-03, 03:10 PM

You can use it on your parallel to just teleport back. You can use your immediate to teleport back in response to an attack. Could probably use a bit of clarifying.

Deimosaur

2017-11-04, 06:57 PM

Update: Restructuring
Several updates have been made to further enable different playstyles (including manifesting).
Power channel now allows personal powers to be manifested on self at 5th level.
Voyager Knowledge now contains the option of trading a power known for feats from a specific list.
A new class feature at 4th level, Stored Power, allows a voyager to save a portion of their power points from the previous day for use later grants a small extra pool of power points.
Defensive Precognition added at 8th level as a situational defensive option.

Look Both Ways has been split apart, distributed accordingly throughout the class.
Uncanny Dodge has been separated, and Improved Uncanny Dodge is gained later.
Time Saver added, with Look Both Ways' other functions.

Parallel actions have been reorganized and categorized in a way that will hopefully be more understandable. More parallel actions made available to an individual voyager.

Combat Assistance (1st level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that support the voyager in a fight or in a relatively mundane way.
Time Manipulation (3rd level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that bend time to suit the voyager’s needs.
Manifesting Support (7th level): The voyager learns two parallel actions that assist the voyager when manifesting powers.
Advanced Assistance (11th level): The voyager learns one parallel action that influences the battlefield in unusual ways.
Backup Plans (15th level): The voyager learns one parallel action that serves to get the voyager out of tight situations.
Parallel Intrusion (19th level): The voyager learns a parallel action that allows the voyager to temporarily stop time and act as she wishes.
Parallel actions that used to be at 7th level have been moved to the options at 1st level, and 7th level has become "manifesting support".
Parallel actions at 3rd level have been rebalanced. Rewind has had power shifted, voyager gains the ability to ignore the miss chance from pause.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-04, 09:36 PM

I liked the voyager just before the "fake magus" set of updates arrived. It was a high tier 3 class, powerful yet ultimately not game-breaking, and certainly nothing like optimized Path of War as far as combat potency was concerned.

The pre-"fake magus" voyager had its flaws. The dwarf/elf/orc FCBs were too strong, and its playstyle monotonously revolved around spamming fast-forward and speeding strike. Still, it actually felt like a teleport-skirmishing master of space and time. The way a voyager zoomed in, teleported past an enemy to savage it for huge damage, and then teleported away was highly distinct. Quite satisfying, it was, and unique. If only there were more options on the level of fast-forward and speeding strike so as to encourage a voyager to mix up their playstyle from round to round, and if only there was little need for a voyager to run back and forth between two squares, the class would have been perfect for me.

~

Then, two rounds of "fake magus"-ification ensued. The voyager loses a good chunk of its power given the removal of speeding strike and the downgrade to fast-forward. This only serves to make running back and forth between two squares even more necessary, and it means that a voyager's playstyle can be more easily disrupted by enemies closing in with their threatened areas. But hey, at least a voyager gets to preserve full momentum using assisted escape, so a voyager is behooved to prepare for battle by... running back and forth between two squares just before the fight breaks out?

In theory, the voyager compensates for this using manifestation of speed's augmented attacks... but those cost either momentum or power points. Momentum costs are a bitter pill to swallow; with the nigh-mandatory Amplified Momentum feat, each point of momentum is worth 4.5 average damage, or +3 AC and Reflex for a round, so the voyager has to wonder if an augmented attack is really worth the momentum cost.

As for power points, throughout the lower levels (1 to 7 or so), a voyager simply does not have the power points to finance round-to-round power point expenditures. Paizo's half-caster gishes do not worry about this because they tend to save their spell slots for pre-battle buffing and noncombat utility, maybe with a single pop of a mid-combat swift/immediate spell to support a gishy playstyle, like an inquisitor litany. The magus is an exception, but the magus makes up for this with the fact that its damage-dealing spells automatically scale in damage without costing power points, and with the ever-important spell recall for more fuel for round to round.

The voyager does not have the luxury of spell recall, despite being pushed into a "fake magus" playstyle with power channel. All it has is stored power, which allows the voyager to carry over power points equal to 1/3rd of their maximum... from the previous day. If the voyager goes adventuring only every other day, that is great! They win fabulous prizes. If not, because they are on an active adventure in a single location and they have to get back to adventuring work the following day... then the voyager gains absolutely nothing, probably because they tapped out their power points the previous day. This is awful design far too dependent on the mercy of a GM's adventure structure over the course of several days. The magus's spell recall does not have to deal with this.

I know this from experience: I GM for a 6th-level voyager with Intelligence 20. Between pre-combat buffs and a single use of object reading outside of combat, they were completely tapped out of power points just as they entered the third battle of the day... with one more battle remaining down the line. They never bothered with power channel at all, or neat swift action powers like repositioning strike; they could not afford it.

Power channel is a bad idea to begin with. I do not see a reason to bother with it. A voyager should save their momentum for actually killing people and defending themselves, and conserve their power points for pre-battle buffs, noncombat utility, and maybe a single swift/immediate action power mid-combat, just like every other half-caster. A voyager gains nothing from being a fake magus and channeling a cost-ineffective Expanded Knowledge (energy ray), which, by the way, is thematically silly given that the spacetime-manipulator is suddenly slashing with fire and frost.

And as additional salt on the wound, the voyager's noncombat utility was also compromised by the bizarre and unnecessary delay of information exchange to 6th level. There was no need for that to have happened.

I do not like the new voyager. I wish that this "fake magus"-ification would go away, and that the voyager would focus more on unique class features to support a "teleport-skirmishing master of space and time" playstyle. If only there were more combinations like fast-forward and speeding strike so as to give more great options from round to round, and if only running back and forth between two squares was less necessary, then that would be lovely.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-04, 11:27 PM

Stored Power (Su): At 4th level, a voyager’s mind gathers and stores excess psionic power from her parallel timelines. She gains a second pool of power points that she can draw upon when she would normally spend power points. This second pool can contain a maximum amount of power points in this way equal to 1/3 of her normal maximum power points from voyager levels (including bonus power points from her Intelligence). Power points from the voyager’s stored power pool are treated as part of her normal pool for the purposes of manifesting powers; she may pay power costs partially with stored power and partially with normal power points, if she wishes.

When the voyager spends power points from this second pool, she gains points of momentum equal to half the power points spent. Whenever the voyager regains power points after a night’s rest, this secondary pool of power refills as well.

Also, for goodness's sake, those voyager bonus feats should be free. They are minor combat ribbons anyway; I do not see the need for them to come at the price of powers known.

Deimosaur

2017-11-06, 02:20 PM

Followup Update:
Manifestation of Speed has not been doing what I've wanted it to do. It was meant as a replacement for speeding strike, allowing that functionality to be baseline in a limited way (rather than every voyager feeling obligated to take that option), and freeing up the voyager's parallel actions.

Likewise, the "Fake-Magus" approach to augmenting a voyager's offense, coined above, was not particularly intended. The voyager could use Manifestation of Speed to do more with less time in combat (buffing or utility), but that potential was overshadowed due to opportunity costs. Voyagers should not feel obligated to spend the maximum amount of power points each turn, nor should they ignore their powers entirely.

Total power points and momentum points spent at once on an augmented attack are capped to manifester level (including for momentum damage).

Blink and Dash are inherent benefits of Manifestation of Speed when power points or points of momentum are spent on an augmented attack, allowing hit-and-run to be done with augmented attacks without additional costs.

Power Channel is available at 2nd level. No more momentum required to use it, multitask, or greater multitask.

Lightning Focus moved to 5th level, Multitask moved to 9th level. Shove added at 13th level, a new method of spending momentum.
With augmented attacks, our intention is that it be a decision to spend power points. If you want direct damage and you have the momentum to spare, then momentum will generally be the better option. This new method of limiting Manifestation of Speed means there is no direct trade of momentum in order to spend your power points. You will not be 'wasting' momentum when using power points, as momentum still has defensive benefits and retaining momentum in any given turn is not the end of the world.

A sidebar has been added, detailing how exactly this new dynamic can work out in combat.

The crossfire's Bullet Time ability is updating as well to keep pace with these changes.

Added earlier, but still relevant: Earlier tiers of parallel actions (Combat Assistance, Time Manipulation, Manifesting Support) now allow the voyager to learn 2 of each at the respective tiers instead of 1.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-06, 04:55 PM

Deimosaur

2017-11-06, 05:13 PM

Today's voyager update is most certainly a step in the right direction, although I still have a few concerns with it:

1. Power channel would still seem to force concentration checks, so voyagers are behooved to be ranged over melee.

2. There is absolutely, positively a "best power" to use for power channel from round to round, and that is destiny dissonance. For 1 power point, a voyager gets to sicken the target for 1 round per manifester level, no saving throw. This is just enough for 5 feet of teleportation from blink, which can then be followed up with momentum-based movement from dash, thereby earning a voyager momentum with which to use for defense.

3. The "fake magus" playstyle still exists to a strong degree. A voyager can still opt for Expanded Knowledge (energy ray), and then build up towards Split Psionic Ray. Then, they can unleash all of their momentum on an attack, dealing 1d6+1 extra damage per point of momentum, plus their weapon damage, plus all the extravagance of a Split Psionic Ray energy ray. It will be a costly nova, yes, but I think it is unhealthy for there to be an "explode powerful enemy" button in the first place, however heavy it may be on daily resources.

4. Voyagers still run back and forth between two squares to build up momentum.

5. It is really quite annoying that the bonus combat feats, which are from a list of combat ribbons, require trading in Expanded Knowledge. They should be free given how narrow those feats are.
1. Powers manifested as part of an augmented attack do not provoke attacks of opportunity, so concentration checks are usually unnecessary.

2. It's certainly a strong opener, but it obviously doesn't stack on the same target more than once. But, noted.

3. Their potential damage is still limited. The total combined momentum and power points is capped by the voyager's manifester level.
The line below was added to the ability at some point but it didn't get mentioned in the update.
Powers with a variable number of targets (such as energy missile) cannot be used with power channel.
4. If your positioning is free to do so, I see no reason to forbid it. On the bright side, the basic bonuses of augmented attacks let you recoup some of your momentum expenditure, meaning it's less desirable to do so and you'll have to shuffle less times to max out on momentum.

5. You don't need to trade Expanded Knowledge (though you can), any voyager power known will do. Given that powers are limited use and the feats, while niche, work all the time, we feel that voyagers, getting more powers known than any other 6-manifester, might still find this trade-off worth it on some (but perhaps not all) builds.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-06, 05:22 PM

Okay. That was a fast series of implemented changes. Thank you. I am still of the opinion that combat ribbon feats should not cost anything, but I can see your stance as well. The one thing that irks me most is the running back and forth between two squares, even if there are ways to mitigate it, but I think it cannot be helped at this point.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-08, 03:03 AM

I have been thinking over the current state of the voyager, and I have to say that I am reasonably satisfied with it in its current state. Zig-zagging back and forth between two squares is perhaps a necessary evil, but I would suggest a tiny sidebar explaining how to flavor it in a less ridiculous way. I would prefer for the combat ribbon feats to be free, but if Dreamscarred Press is dead-set on attaching a price tag to them, then so be it.

At the moment, my two main concerns are as such:

1. Destiny dissonance is still far too good an opening, since it costs only 1 power point, sickens a target for essentially an entire battle with no saving throw, and gives just enough blink teleportation (5 feet) with which a voyager can then safely escape from an enemy using dash and build up momentum. Plus, you can combine it with an inevitable strike.

2. Augmented attack could perhaps use some wording to open it up to trips, dirty tricks, Vital Strikes, and the like, so as to give a voyager more options than just vanilla weapon attacks.

Tariyan Draegr

2017-11-08, 05:50 AM

2. Augmented attack could perhaps use some wording to open it up to trips, dirty tricks, Vital Strikes, and the like, so as to give a voyager more options than just vanilla weapon attacks.

With spheres of might just being released, I'd think innate support for attack actions would be more than cool

angelpalm

2017-11-08, 10:21 AM

So what is the incentive to play this class over a Cryptic or Traceur Psywar?

Deimosaur

2017-11-08, 04:18 PM

So what is the incentive to play this class over a Cryptic or Traceur Psywar?
They play very differently, I'm sure. Mobility is the name of the game for the voyager, and in my opinion she does it better than either of those two.

The psychic warrior wants to leverage their path bonuses and bonus feats to hit stuff hard. Full attacks, using powers to either enable them or put riders on the attacks. The cryptic isn't comparable to either as far as combat potential goes.

Most traceurs (and most psychic warriors) will outpunch a voyager in a stand-up brawl, most likely. But that's not the voyager's game at all. The voyager is intended to enable a hit and run playstyle, through the manifestation of speed class ability. She can leverage her speed (which she has more of than even a traceur) into offense and defense (both positioning-wise and numbers-wise).

Look at the example listed in the sidebar after manifestation of speed and their power list, and you might get an idea of how much potential flexibility a voyager has if she puts her mind to it. Parallel actions are vaguely comparable to psychic warrior paths (being a set of somewhat character-defining choices), but also serve to provide the voyager with off-turn utility and unique fluff.

Talverin

2017-11-08, 06:27 PM

Building one up for fun at low level, possibly for use in a campaign. (Starting at level one. Eeeeww!)

Only thing I've noticed thus far is that in the Class Skills, Stealth and Spellcraft are in the wrong alphabetical order.

Minor thing, sure, but it's what I've noticed. Far better eyes than mine are scrutinizing mechanics.

Edit: Some of the power entry links are not working. For example, 'Inertial Armor' has its' link misspelled. In the link, it is written 'intertial'.

Further Edit: Do you add your Int bonus to your PP per day? I can't find the mentioned reference for how many PP the Int mod gives.

Jeff the Green

2017-11-09, 10:57 AM

Psionics has this wonderful chart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/) to figure out bonus PP, because this is 3.5/PF, and something as easy as adding your manifesting ability modifier to your PP would be far too simple.

(In actuality it's to balance against casters, for whom an increased casting ability gives more bonus spells if they're of a higher level.)

Lord_Gareth

2017-11-09, 03:36 PM

With spheres of might just being released, I'd think innate support for attack actions would be more than cool

That's outside of our wheelhouse, my friend. Nothin' against Spheres of Might or Drop Dead Studios, but the thing about trying to support out-of-house 3pp in one's own 3pp work is that you can't really certify that everything is going to be okay about it. They have their own design paradigms, goals, and decisions, which they rightly do not consult with us about, and vice-versa. Attempting to support their content in our own is making the implicit statement that the two go together and are okay to run together, and we can't promise that.

Tariyan Draegr

2017-11-09, 04:48 PM

That's outside of our wheelhouse, my friend. Nothin' against Spheres of Might or Drop Dead Studios, but the thing about trying to support out-of-house 3pp in one's own 3pp work is that you can't really certify that everything is going to be okay about it. They have their own design paradigms, goals, and decisions, which they rightly do not consult with us about, and vice-versa. Attempting to support their content in our own is making the implicit statement that the two go together and are okay to run together, and we can't promise that.

Hey man, more than understandable. I've always been more than satisfied with all you guys put out. I more than appreciate the response though.

Deimosaur

2017-11-14, 06:45 PM

Over the past week I've been updating and adjusting wording. Nothing to worry about, just . . . minor wording stuff.

Just now though, I've added three new feats to the playtest document.

Divert Perception and Fade From Memory are feats that accommodate a stealth and movement-based playstyle. While not directly voyager feats, there's obvious synergy between them and how a voyager likes to play.

Maneuver Augmentation is a feat that builds on Momentous Maneuvers and allows the voyager to make combat maneuver attempts with her augmented attack.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-14, 07:07 PM

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-15, 11:14 PM

A few comments on the pre-update voyager from one of my players:
Thoughts on Voyager

I, unfortunately, had the least experience with Voyager, so this will be a short section. The voyager in the party seems to not use utility psionic powers, which feels a bit strange for a class with 6+ skill points and obviously meant to be high utility out-of-combat. I wonder if this is a corollary of having too little power points over the day, which forces extreme rationing for in-combat purposes.

Naturally, this is simply a vindication of the post-update voyager's upgraded power points.

Also, I am completely convinced that the voyager (crossfire) is awful short of advanced firearms. It is accurate, yes, but firearms are terrible weapons saddled with misfires, pesky reload times, and a lack of ability score to damage. A voyager (crossfire) who intends on using move actions to actually move will need to use a pistol with paper cartridges for a paltry 1d8 base damage with no ability modifier, and must furthermore contend with misfire 1-2. Having to spend parallel actions just to clear misfiring is quite inconvenient.

The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) both offer far more perks for actually wielding firearms than the voyager (crossfire).

On another topic, perhaps the voyager should have touchsight as a 3rd-level power? For all the voyager is supposed to be a sneaky sort, it has distressingly few options for actually dealing with other sneaky-types, especially invisible enemies. It could stand to replace evade burst, which is useless for voyagers anyway due to evasion.

Deimosaur

2017-11-16, 01:35 AM

I strongly worry that Divert Perception plus Lurker in Darkness and Stealth optimization means nigh-undetectable infiltrations by 6th-level and for a relatively low opportunity cost.

Fade from Memory should probably trigger the Will saving throw only once per round, or else things get stupid with prompting multiple Stealth checks in a single round.
Fade from Memory requires the use of psionic focus to trigger. You'll naturally be limited by psionic focus when trying to use it multiple times in a round.

Also, I am completely convinced that the voyager (crossfire) is awful short of advanced firearms. It is accurate, yes, but firearms are terrible weapons saddled with misfires, pesky reload times, and a lack of ability score to damage. A voyager (crossfire) who intends on using move actions to actually move will need to use a pistol with paper cartridges for a paltry 1d8 base damage with no ability modifier, and must furthermore contend with misfire 1-2. Having to spend parallel actions just to clear misfiring is quite inconvenient.

The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) both offer far more perks for actually wielding firearms than the voyager (crossfire).
Misfires are unfortunate when they happen, but the crossfire has a rather action-efficient way to clear it (and in line with other archetypes/classes that have to put up with it).

Though guns do have issues, fixing them entirely isn't within the scope of this project. The crossfire was given abilities that we think put them alongside similar gun-users. If this is your opinion, hopefully the crossfire will be compatible with whatever other gun fixes you have in mind (such as advanced firearms, as you said).

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-16, 01:51 AM

Fade from Memory requires the use of psionic focus to trigger. You'll naturally be limited by psionic focus when trying to use it multiple times in a round.

That is fair. I was basing this criticism from a contact who brought up exactly this concern; I should have checked the actual feat.

Misfires are unfortunate when they happen, but the crossfire has a rather action-efficient way to clear it (and in line with other archetypes/classes that have to put up with it).

Though guns do have issues, fixing them entirely isn't within the scope of this project. The crossfire was given abilities that we think put them alongside similar gun-users. If this is your opinion, hopefully the crossfire will be compatible with whatever other gun fixes you have in mind (such as advanced firearms, as you said).

The mystic (gunsmoke mystic) and the warlord (desperado) do, in a way, fix emerging firearms by giving plenty of incentives to use them. The gunsmoke mystic has misfire reduction and its initiation modifier to firearm damage, and the desperado has many bonus feats and actual grit. The crossfire receives very little in exchange.

I would hardly call spending your parallel action just to clear a misfire "action-efficient."

At the moment, I have to say that a hummingbird tengu melee voyager is probably the single best voyager build from 3rd- to 10th-level or so. Such a character has speed 40 feet, automatic proficiency with elven curve blades, +2 Dexterity, and +2 Intelligence, which is absolutely perfect for a melee voyager.

Deimosaur

2017-11-16, 02:42 AM

Since I had guns on the mind, a few changes (buffs and options) have been added to the crossfire. Check them (and the rest of the voyager) out here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit#heading=h.y6ii039czyll).

Crossfire:
Slowed Step, Steady Aim: Amateur Gunslinger as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Firearm Assistance: Now works to fix broken conditions on a firearm, even if they aren't from a misfire.

Focused Crossfire:
Gunfire Training: More bonus feats from a set list! And an option to trade additional powers known, for additional feats from this list.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-16, 10:51 AM

Firearms are still a hard enough sell that I would advise keeping the accelerate reduction to 5 feet rather than 10 feet.

On a flavor note:

And like a voyager, a bullet’s offensive power is tied to its kinetic energy.

This is an incredibly stupid-sounding thing to say, considering how physical weapons work in general; perhaps a more speed-based analogy is in order? Say, "And like a voyager, a bullet soars swifter than the wind."

AlienFromBeyond

2017-11-16, 05:26 PM

This is an incredibly stupid-sounding thing to say, considering how physical weapons work in general; perhaps a more speed-based analogy is in order? Say, "And like a voyager, a bullet soars swifter than the wind."
I could say the same about yours. Bullets don't "soar" after all.

Galacktic

2017-11-16, 05:50 PM

Neither works. Maybe something like: "And just like the Voyager, their bullets are imbued with the very essence of speed."

Less straightforward and more flowery, and also not literal.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-19, 01:53 AM

I could say the same about yours. Bullets don't "soar" after all.

1 a :to fly aloft or about

There is a connotation of "soar" involving flying at a high altitude, but it is just that, a connotation, in the same way that "voyage" has a connotation of naval travel yet is used to name a class with no special tie to maritime travel.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-19, 01:57 AM

Recently, I had completed a six-session, four-combat, 6th-level playtest game involving three rajahs all limited to Radiant Dawn and one voyager (metronome).

I immediately moved on to a new playtest mini-campaign in which both of the PCs are 7th-level voyagers (metronome), and by playtest game, I mean "it took us until the climax of the second session to reach combat, because the entire adventure had been investigation, infiltration, and in-character chit-chat before then." Both of them were hummingbird tengus, one of them had an elven curve blade, and the other was a crossfire with a pistol.

Outside of combat, the voyager is really quite effective at infiltration. Its sheer mobility makes getting in and out of secure locations a breeze, particularly its ability to rewind to an afterimage. The PCs had trouble with Stealth checks against high-Perception monsters; maybe it would have been a good idea for both of them to have taken chameleon as a power known. I noted that shunning of the material from Psionics Augmented: Seventh Path would have been a great help at one point. It would be nice if the voyager's power list was updated to include some powers from Psionics Augmented: Seventh Path, Psionics Augmented: Occult, Psionics Augmented: Powers, and Psionics Augmented: Powers II.

One of our players was constantly confused by afterimages, however. They were convinced that afterimages could be made realistic-looking enough to pass as a convincing decoy of a person even up close, which simply was not the case in the rules. This is a point I had to correct numerous times, so perhaps afterimages could be strongly clarified to say that using them this way is impossible. Perhaps a feat could open up afterimage-based illusions?

The climactic battle saw the two 7th-level PCs square off against a CR 10 zohanil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sahkil/sahkil-zohanil).

The PCs were in a poor position. Their infiltration was crumbling apart (yet it lasted far longer than most other characters could have managed), so they had no time to buff themselves other than a fully-augmented inertial armor from hours before. Worse, they were sickened for a long duration due to an earlier mishap. Even worse, the zohanil was pre-buffed with protection from good, and it gained a surprise round against the PCs by sliding in from the Ethereal Plane.

A major quibble immediately arose then and there: it is easy to determine how much momentum a voyager starts with if they have time to pre-buff, and it is likewise easy to determine where their afterimage would be... but what if the voyager is suddenly thrown into combat? There could stand to be a quick-and-dirty means of adjudicating how much momentum a voyager can be allowed to start combat with during impromptu battles, and where they are allowed to set their afterimage.

The sahkil's initiative was higher than theirs, it panicked and shook the PCs with its gaze, it denied them actions with overwhelming grief, and it turned greater invisible on top of that. Both of them had dropped their weapons, and the zohanil was standing over the crossfire's pistol. The voyagers were looking to be completely screwed. (The zohanil was also a catgirl nurse and the PCs were also dressed as anime nurses, but those are irrelevant details.) My general interpretation of suggestion is that "stop fighting" is never a reasonable _suggestion_, so that SLA was off the table for the zohanil.

After surviving the zohanil's attacks when while Dexterity-denied due to uncanny dodge, that is when the PCs made a heroic comeback. They broke free of the overwhelming grief and manifested touchsight. It sure is convenient that _touchsight_ was recently added to the voyager's power list; while see invisibility would have forced the PCs to confront the sahkil's gaze, touchsight ensured that they could fight with their eyes closed. Thanks to some trickery with the foreshadow and helping hand parallel actions, they managed to rearm themselves.

Both voyagers had deflect (immediate action, spend 3 power points, negate any ranged attack) and sidestep (immediate action, spend 3 power points, negate any melee attack) among their powers known. They quickly discovered that augmented attack's blink and dash allowed them to effortlessly skirmish away from the mostly-melee zohanil. Since the sahkil had no pounce, this meant that the sahkil was forced to move and attack, only to have their attack sidestepped. Similarly, the zohanil could redirect the PCs' own attacks against them with foe to friend, but that was just as easily deflected or sidestepped.

Let this be a lesson: voyagers are fragile due to their d6 HD, but augmented attack's blink and dash let them simultaneously crank up their AC and Reflex with momentum and bounce away from melee monsters. Any melee monster without pounce is limited to a single attack against a voyager, which can be negated with sidestep.

Still, the sahkil was quite durable even against full-momentum attacks that dealt an extra 7d6+7 damage with Amplified Momentum, and so the entire battle took a grueling 15 rounds before the zohanil was finally placed under an akashic Symbol of Mercy. The PCs ended the battle in critical hit points and with an obnoxious amount of power points hemorrhaged away, so it was perhaps a pyrrhic victory.

I was skeptical over the voyager (crossfire) as an archetype. It receives nowhere as much firearm benefits as a mystic (gunsmoke mystic) or a warlord (desperado), so how could it possibly stand up to an elven curve blade with free proficiency from being a hummingbird tengu? As it turns out, with naught but a humble pistol and alchemical paper cartridges, the crossfire actually managed to be more powerful and reliable than the regular voyager, even without spending any grit.

A voyager (crossfire) is highly mobile, quite likely to make only a single attack each round, and capable of repairing a misfire with a parallel action, so misfires are no concern and it is no problem to close in for a ranged touch attack. Most of a voyager's damage comes from momentum (and Amplified Momentum, at that), so a firearm's low damage is of no concern, and the immense accuracy increase from ranged touch attacks cannot be denied. So, please do not underestimate the crossfire; it uses pistols more efficaciously than it would seem at first glance.

I would also like to add that there is really no reason for a voyager to not be a metronome. So much of a voyager's playstyle benefits from chaining together a parallel action with an augmented attack (or vice versa) that it is well worth the initiative penalty. I cannot imagine any of our voyager's tricky tactics with foreshadow, rewind, and pause having worked anywhere as well with the default voyager. I am not saying that the metronome should be downgraded; rather, the vanilla voyager should be upgraded to make the parallel turn more enticing.

As I had expected, however, there was hardly any point to using power channel. Over the course of 15 rounds, it was used only twice: once when the melee voyager tried a destiny dissonance only to run into spell resistance, and a second time when the voyager (crossfire) had to spend a move action to retrieve their weapon and settled for dealing damage through focused shot and dissolving touch. Power channel is really quite niche, and never a mainstay of a voyager. It was exactly like this in my previous playtest mini-campaign as well; I do not place much value in the feature.

Another issue we noticed was that pause is a little confusing. Despite the general rules for stacking miss chances, people constantly thought that the miss chances stacked. People also thought that any voyager spending momentum could ignore the miss chance, and furthermore, it was unclear to everyone which of the miss chances spending momentum actually ignored.

A further quibble had to do with parallel actions. They are neither "real" turns nor "real" actions, so can they be used while denied actions? Consider surprise rounds, frightened/panicked, and effects like overwhelming grief. Is a voyager still eligible for their parallel actions? What of a metronome?

The voyage of the two voyagers will continue next week.

I consider the voyager to have the single most interesting combat playstyle out of any non-initiating Pathfinder class I have ever seen. I find its combat paradigm to be delightfully unique and flexible by non-initiator standards.

I will also say that the voyager is a strong class for a tier 3. It obviously pales in comparison to the noncombat potential of prepared full spellcasters, and it cannot hold a candle to initiators abusing the likes of zenith strikes and reflected blade style, but it is among the most flexible and potent of the half-casters and half-manifesters.

Many other pairs of 7th-level characters would have completely flunked the infiltration scenario in my game (and the voyagers would have passed it effortlessly if only they had selected chameleon as a power known). Likewise, few are the pairs of non-initiating 7th-level characters who would have been able to survive the encounter against the CR 10 zohanil under the same circumstances (sickened for a long duration, indoors, surprise round, lost initiative, caught with only hours-long buffs). It takes a good understanding of the voyager's mechanics to unlock its full potential, however; this is no class for lazy players.

As far as longevity over the course of an adventuring day is concerned, the voyager is fairly well-off as long as the player does not fall into the trap of regularly spending power points on power channel. A voyager has one-and-one-third as much power points as any other half-manifester, and its optimal tactic is the usual: pre-buff before combat, toss out utility here and there, and seldom manifest during combat itself.

During this particular encounter with the CR 10 zohanil, the two 7th-level voyagers had to bleed through a disheartening amount of power points simply to survive via Deflect and Sidestep, but I imagine that many other duos of 7th-level non-initiators would have been crushed by the same battle under the same circumstances.

sunderedhero

2017-11-19, 10:52 AM

I really like this class, but there's something that concerns me, "Rewind" effectively make the Voyager unkillable unless you drop them in a single turn. "Emergency Stasis" suffers from the same problem.

Galacktic

2017-11-19, 01:01 PM

Stasis locks you in a single spot, entirely in view of everyone, and you can't contribute. Even though you do heal when you get out, you could have lost the battle by that point and the enemy have just surrounded you and set up a trap. That's the risk of it. Any turn that you're stasis'd, that's a turn you're not helping kill the enemy.

And Rewind lets you mark your HP, but it only lasts for one turn and you expend your focus to do so. It's more of a heal in battle than anything, and using that still means that you're not doing your primary job (as a skirmisher, blowing up the enemy with your spellstrike and momentum)

Deimosaur

2017-11-19, 03:35 PM

One of our players was constantly confused by afterimages, however. They were convinced that afterimages could be made realistic-looking enough to pass as a convincing decoy of a person even up close, which simply was not the case in the rules. This is a point I had to correct numerous times, so perhaps afterimages could be strongly clarified to say that using them this way is impossible. Perhaps a feat could open up afterimage-based illusions?
Wording has been added to afterimages to make this more clear.

A major quibble immediately arose then and there: it is easy to determine how much momentum a voyager starts with if they have time to pre-buff, and it is likewise easy to determine where their afterimage would be... but what if the voyager is suddenly thrown into combat? There could stand to be a quick-and-dirty means of adjudicating how much momentum a voyager can be allowed to start combat with during impromptu battles, and where they are allowed to set their afterimage.
This is something that's always going to require GM adjudication, I think. But a sidebar has been added to make decision-making easier.

Another issue we noticed was that pause is a little confusing. Despite the general rules for stacking miss chances, people constantly thought that the miss chances stacked. People also thought that any voyager spending momentum could ignore the miss chance, and furthermore, it was unclear to everyone which of the miss chances spending momentum actually ignored.

A further quibble had to do with parallel actions. They are neither "real" turns nor "real" actions, so can they be used while denied actions? Consider surprise rounds, frightened/panicked, and effects like overwhelming grief. Is a voyager still eligible for their parallel actions? What of a metronome?
These two issues have also been clarified! Using momentum should work to avoid the miss chance you inflict on yourself, and the miss chance you potentially gave an enemy.

Since I opted for the 'weaker' option by default for parallel actions... a new feat, called Independent Action, opens up the stronger interpretation (with a bonus).

Stasis locks you in a single spot, entirely in view of everyone, and you can't contribute. Even though you do heal when you get out, you could have lost the battle by that point and the enemy have just surrounded you and set up a trap. That's the risk of it. Any turn that you're stasis'd, that's a turn you're not helping kill the enemy.

And Rewind lets you mark your HP, but it only lasts for one turn and you expend your focus to do so. It's more of a heal in battle than anything, and using that still means that you're not doing your primary job (as a skirmisher, blowing up the enemy with your spellstrike and momentum)
Indeed, being able to bow out of a fight like this isn't as strong as it looks. The exception might be in solo play, and even then the enemy can make preparations for your return.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-19, 08:38 PM

Also, we actually forgot about 7th-level parallel actions entirely, but now that I analyze the battle, power echo is the only one that would have mattered, for spamming deflect and sidestep.

Another thing I note about the voyager is that parallel actions tend to confuse players in the sense that they keep forgetting that they can use parallel actions through their afterimage. It is a single, easy-to-miss line in the description of afterimages, not in the description of parallel actions. For example, it is a staple trick for a voyager to use helping hand via afterimage, but the current wording misleads players into thinking that the object has to be adjacent to the voyager, and only the voyager.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-20, 01:25 PM

I am concerned that accomplished accomplice effectively becomes a scaling bonus to virtually any skill check a voyager makes, whether it is Knowledge or Perception. Is this the intent?

I am not so sure I like that, since it is a no-brainer selection for any voyager who appreciates having high skill checks. For a 6th-level voyager, it is a +3 bonus to the vast majority of their skill checks, which is... really quite good, as you can imagine.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-24, 05:59 AM

My report on the voyager continues. We played for another 11.5 hours stretched out over two days, because the noncombat side of the mini-campaign was proving quite gripping. We did get into one battle, which showcased more of the voyager's strengths and weaknesses.

The battlefield was a 195-foot-long, 120-foot-wide, 30-foot-tall enclosure. The area was split lengthwise into an field of clear terrain and a field of difficult terrain. The opponent was a CR 12 diplodocus with Intelligence 21 and Charisma 21, surely a fearsome foe for two 7th-level half-manifesters. Due to the outcome of previous noncombat challenges, they were able to enter battle only with inertial armor and defensive precognition for buffs (they did not have a chance to manifest concealing amorpha).

The melee voyager and the pistol voyager started adjacent to each other and twenty feet west of the diplodocus, which was in the dead center of the area. This was a poor starting position. Despite suffering a -9 penalty to their Knowledge checks due to a previous noncombat challenge and despite being blindsided by the sudden appearance of this foe, they were able to identify the diplodocus and its major abilities. They likewise won initiative, despite the metronome initiative penalty and despite the diplodocus's Improved Initiative.

The players and their PCs knew that they had to avoid three things:
1. Attacks of opportunity from the diplodocus's 60-foot-reach, Combat Reflexes, and Dexterity 14.
2. Full attacks from the dual tail lashes.
3. Tramples. The rules for this monster ability are vague, but I ruled it as allowing a single iteration of movement speed, not a double move. The party knew that trample would be the death of them due to its obnoxious save DC, and due to it not being a melee attack, therefore being ineligible for a sidestep.

Realistically, they could avoid only two of the three, but not all three. The players opted to avoid #2 and #3.

The players made intelligent use of the foreshadow and rewind parallel actions, which have consistently proven to be the two most useful parallel actions for any voyager so far. They were dominant in positioning thanks to foreshadow and rewind. Narcissism (The Skirmisher) gave them even more flexibility when retreating, and they were always ready to use augmented attack's dash to place distance between themselves and the diplodocus.

Nevertheless, over the course of the five-round battle, they each provoked a single attack of opportunity during some of their turns, whether due to movement or due to making a ranged attack in a threatened area. The PCs prevailed nevertheless. The diplodocus was in a position to use trample not even once, and it was able to full attack only during one round, in which one voyager made a blatant tactical error after forgetting a caveat on parallel actions.

The voyagers were quite lucky during this combat due to the diplodocus's awful attack rolls, but then again, their ACs were stupendously high due to +3 AC from defensive precognition and +Intelligence AC from leftover momentum. That plus the diplodocus being sickened by a destiny dissonance meant that the saurian had trouble hitting the party. Even when it did, a sidestep was there to negate the hard-hitting blow. The party found their power point resources moderately taxed after the battle, but they should still be good to go for easier battles up ahead, thanks to the extra power points from stored power.

I am really quite impressed by how much mobility the voyagers had, between foreshadow, rewind, Narcissism (The Skirmisher), augmented attack's dash, and the raw speed boost from the accelerate class feature. This was a massive arena, and yet the characters were bouncing around it like pinballs or like wuxia heroes. One player praised how riveting a tactical exercise it was to figure out where and how to move the voyagers each turn, and I have to agree: playing in a voyager-heavy party transforms the game into a tactical positioning challenge often missing from Pathfinder. It was very engaging for all of us.

I have mentioned previously that the voyager is a very strong and flexible class for a non-initiating tier 3, and that it has the single most interesting combat playstyle out of any non-initiator I have ever seen. I stand by that wholeheartedly and without a doubt in my mind: the voyager has a supremely gripping combat style.

However, this does come at a price of complexity. The class has many, many moving parts, between keeping track of afterimages, momentum, power points, augmented attacks, and parallel images. One player expressed that they were completely overwhelmed by option paralysis at one point in the battle. I think that the voyager is in a good place mechanically, but it could strongly use a guide on how to play the class, written by the author (Deimosaur) themselves. A complex class deserves as gentle as possible a hand-holding guide to ease players into making the most of its complex yet rewarding mechanics.

We ran into four rules quibbles during this fight:
1. Is the momentum from an attack spent before any attacks of opportunity, or after any attacks of opportunity? We went with "after" for this battle, which favored the voyagers' AC against attacks of opportunity.
2. Can an afterimage be freely moved through difficult terrain, walls, and the like? For this battle, we said "yes" to difficult terrain but "no" to walls.
3. An afterimage can be moved "5 feet per 3 additional class levels." Does that count the initial 3 class levels, letting a 3rd-level voyager move their afterimage 20 feet? We said "yes" for this fight.
4. Does the extra damage from the Amplified Momentum feat multiply on a critical hit? We said "no" for this combat.

Unsurprisingly, the voyager (metronome) archetype still proved to be worth its weight in gold. I saw no spots whatsoever wherein a regular voyager's parallel turn would have been more useful, and indeed, it was only due to the metronome archetype that the party was able to achieve such tricksy positioning tactics to avoid the diplodocus's most dangerous offense modes.

The voyager (crossfire), yet again, proved significantly more powerful and reliable than the regular voyager. Perhaps this is simply a symptom of how I tend to run over-CRed battles, but targeting touch AC really is quite a boon for a class that relies mostly on single-attack momentum for damage. Misfiring is not much of a problem for a voyager (crossfire) either, so that eliminates a major weakness of firearms. I would not say to downgrade the regular voyager, but I would advise keeping an eye on the crossfire; by no means does it deserve further upgrades given how well it can leverage a pistol.

Accomplished accomplice was definitely pulling its weight as well; it is an insane, global bonus to the majority of skill checks.

khadgar567

2017-11-24, 06:47 AM

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-24, 07:01 AM

I would also like to add that if nothing else, the kryptonite of a voyager will be anything that can negate singular, powerful attacks, such as Deflect Arrows, psionic powers like deflect and sidestep, and Path of War counters. Voyagers are worse-off than initiators in this regard, because initiators have multiattack strikes and the option of boosting and full attacking, whereas voyagers are mostly screwed if they come across attack-cancelers. Momentum-empowered attacks could use a chance to break through something as simple as Deflect Arrows, if only due to sheer, well, momentum.

It is funny; a voyager versus a voyager will probably stalemate one another due to deflect and sidestep.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-25, 08:39 AM

My report on the voyager continues. Today's session was shorter at a mere five hours long, but we did go through a single battle. Our characters were expecting a fight with a pair of archers in the outdoor section of an 85-by-85-foot floating island (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/a9/83/60a983b06910fcfc032c94ff6515aec4.jpg). They already had a inertial armor up at 7 points for +7 AC. Through the psionic power-sharing mechanic, they further buffed up with defensive precognition at 7 points for +3 AC, skate, concealing amorpha, and, for the melee non-firearm voyager, offensive precognition at 7 points for +3 attack.

Unfortunately, the two archers turned out to be a pair of zuishin kami (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kami/kami-zuishin). These were variants that used constant _mage armor_ rather than breastplates for the same AC, treated all intruders to the area as evil for the purposes of detect evil and holy weapons, could not re-merge with their ward while they were still in combat with conscious enemies, and had Symbol of Mercy as a bonus feat. They also had land speeds rather than fly speeds, which, I suppose, effectively made them more CR 9-ish.

The variant zuishin appeared atop the cottage's roof and opened up with a surprise round. They had see invisibility and could thus see the voyagers' inertial armor, which the zuishin promptly dispelled. Even worse, once the PCs identified the zuishin with Knowledge (planes), it became clear that Improved Precise Shot would completely obviate the miss chances from concealing amorpha and the pause parallel action. Things were looking grim for the voyagers as usual! It is such a shame that the voyagers opted against Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat (though I suppose I may let them swap to it after this battle).

Fortunately, the 7th-level characters' extreme mobility options promptly got them up on the roof, which is where the rest of the battle took place. The voyagers did not have to worry about attacks of opportunity while the two zuishin had their bows out, so the voyagers were free to move around with impunity.

The PCs both used power channel to manifest 1-point inertial armor. The melee voyager liked to activate accomplished accomplice to add +3 to their attack rolls, while the voyager (crossfire) favored spamming power echo to manifest destiny dissonance at a low power point cost of 0, until it finally powered through the enemies' spell resistance. The melee voyager also liked to corner one zuishin by the edge of the rooftop and threaten it with an attack of opportunity, thereby forcing it to settle for a dispel magic (on a destiny dissonance or an inertial armor) and a dimension door away.

Even with only 1-point inertial armor up, the voyagers proved frustratingly difficult for enemies with Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot. Defensive precognition on top of +Intelligence to AC is no joke, and the zuishin being sickened did not help their accuracy either. The PCs had cold iron weapons and ammunition, and so were able to penetrate the enemies' damage reduction. The zuishin liked to use a healing arrow loaded with heal or breath of life as the final attack in their full attack sequence and were able to successfully do so a few times, although they had some misfortune with their attack rolls while trying to hit themselves, and Symbol of Mercy helped prevent an annoying breath of life.

After a staggering 12 rounds (including the surprise round), after some very close calls and many power points expended on deflect, our voyagers proved victorious. Only one of them was left standing with 3 hit points, while the other was under a Symbol of Mercy, and both of them were completely tapped out on power points.

We learned during that battle that although power channel is quite niche beyond destiny dissonance, it can be a life-saver in certain situations, such as when inertial armor is dispelled.

We also saw that accomplished accomplice really is too strong a parallel action. Not only is it a scaling bonus to most skill checks, but it is a scaling bonus to attacks on demand as well. I could still see people taking it if it was just an aid another to an attack; it would be a go-to parallel action for "nothing else is useful, so I will make my attack more accurate." Having it apply to most skill checks outside of combat, which happened many times this session, is extravagant.

Only four rules quibbles came up here:
1. Does power echo's cost reduction apply to the momentum cap as well on augmented attacks? In other words, if a 7th-level voyager manifests destiny dissonance for exactly 0 power points, can they then shove 7 momentum onto an augmented attack?
2. The pause parallel action provides a miss chance "attacks," but it is not quite concealment. How does it interact with effects like Improved Precise Shot, then? For that matter, given the bizarre definition of "attacks" in the core rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Special-Spell-Effects), would it affect a stone call or a dispel magic?
3. It occurred to me at one point that sensitivity to psychic impressions would have been an extremely useful power to have at a certain point, but it is strangely missing from the voyager's power list, despite being time/history-themed. Why does the voyager have object reading but not sensitivity to psychic impressions?
4. Power echo will completely break shunning of the material by making it all-day, and it is already a broken power (e.g. wrap yourself in a bedsheet for cheap etherealness).

GMing for these voyagers has made for the most entertaining Pathfinder combat experience I have ever had as a GM. Battles really are quite dynamic and mobile ala wuxia.

Throughout all three of these battles, there has been not a single moment wherein each of the voyagers lacked their full +Intelligence to AC and Reflex, though this may be skewed by Narcissism (The Skirmisher). To that end, I do not see defensive precognition at 8th level (a terrible name for a class feature, by the way, given the overlap with defensive precognition) being all that exciting a class feature beyond just +2 AC and Reflex against a single enemy... and that is assuming the voyager is willing to cough up swift actions and willing to stay within close range, rather than darting well out of range.

Deimosaur

2017-11-25, 06:34 PM

Momentum:
Momentum defenses scale at +1 per point now instead of +2. The cap is the same (Int modifier), but this should slow down the rate at which a voyager gets unhittable amounts of AC and Reflex.
Wording on fall-off clause while restrained adjusted.

Changes to Parallel Actions:
Accomplished Accomplice pared down to affecting only three "known" skills. It still always can affect attack rolls and AC of the assisted character as normal. It's been a rather dominant out-of-combat bonus, this should narrow its focus a little.

Foreshadow adjusted. The immunity to attacks of opportunity from moving only applies to one selected creature, but that creature is treated as flat-footed against the voyager's next attack (with caveats, see the full text). This should give the voyager some leeway when facing enemies with counters or abilities that can actively nullify their attacks.

Pause's clause with the voyager's momentum has been adjusted. The only voyager that can avoid the miss chance of any given use of Pause should be the one who used it.

Power list:
Sensitivity to psychic impressions (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/s/sensitivity-to-psychic-impressions/) added.

We ran into four rules quibbles during this fight:
1. Is the momentum from an attack spent before any attacks of opportunity, or after any attacks of opportunity? We went with "after" for this battle, which favored the voyagers' AC against attacks of opportunity.
2. Can an afterimage be freely moved through difficult terrain, walls, and the like? For this battle, we said "yes" to difficult terrain but "no" to walls.
3. An afterimage can be moved "5 feet per 3 additional class levels." Does that count the initial 3 class levels, letting a 3rd-level voyager move their afterimage 20 feet? We said "yes" for this fight.
4. Does the extra damage from the Amplified Momentum feat multiply on a critical hit? We said "no" for this combat.
1. I'd say after. Attacks of opportunity happen before the attack happens, momentum is spent while the attack is happening.
2-3. Added some wording to afterimage to clarify these.
4. No, I don't think so.

The melee voyager liked to activate accomplished accomplice to add +3 to their attack rolls, while the voyager (crossfire) favored spamming power echo to manifest destiny dissonance at a low power point cost of 0, until it finally powered through the enemies' spell resistance..

1. Does power echo's cost reduction apply to the momentum cap as well on augmented attacks? In other words, if a 7th-level voyager manifests destiny dissonance for exactly 0 power points, can they then shove 7 momentum onto an augmented attack?
4. Power echo will completely break shunning of the material by making it all-day, and it is already a broken power (e.g. wrap yourself in a bedsheet for cheap etherealness).
Bit of a note here for the future, power echo's refund rounds down. A power with a cost of 1 wouldn't get a refund at all.

GMing for these voyagers has made for the most entertaining Pathfinder combat experience I have ever had as a GM. Battles really are quite dynamic and mobile ala wuxia.
Very gratifying to hear.

Throughout all three of these battles, there has been not a single moment wherein each of the voyagers lacked their full +Intelligence to AC and Reflex, though this may be skewed by Narcissism (The Skirmisher). To that end, I do not see defensive precognition at 8th level (a terrible name for a class feature, by the way, given the overlap with defensive precognition) being all that exciting a class feature beyond just +2 AC and Reflex against a single enemy... and that is assuming the voyager is willing to cough up swift actions and willing to stay within close range, rather than darting well out of range.
What I'm sort of hearing here is that it's somewhat unnecessary to use at the moment? Are the voyager's defenses up to snuff already? Renamed it for now, anyways.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-26, 11:06 AM

Deimosaur, the writer of the voyager class, is really quite an interactive designer who listens to feedback. Let us go over the changes to the voyager class.

1. Stealth Update: Destiny dissonance is back to being a 1st-level power for voyagers, rather than 2nd-level.
Likely Prompted by: IRC chatter with Deimosaur.
My Verdict: A good change that could go a step further. It is perhaps an inevitability that destiny dissonance will be picked up by a voyager for augmented attacks, simply because of how it works. Transferring it to 2nd level is like making shocking grasp a 2nd-level power for maguses simply because it is ubiquitous for them. Besides, Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat at 4th level can pick up destiny dissonance as a 1st-level power anyway. I think that it would be better if voyagers simply received destiny dissonance as a bonus power known outright at 2nd level, if it is so great a part of their playstyle.

2. "Momentum defenses scale at +1 per point now instead of +2. The cap is the same (Int modifier), but this should slow down the rate at which a voyager gets unhittable amounts of AC and Reflex."
Likely Prompted by: A mix of playtest feedback on the voyager, Deimosaur's own theorycrafting and testing, and suggestions from Dreamscarred Press's internal team.
My Verdict: I wholly disapprove of this. When I was praising the voyager's very high AC in my playtest feedback, that was with a 7-point inertial armor and a 7-point defensive precognition in mind. Those take a heavy expenditure of power points, which is a non-negligible opportunity cost. I was never actually saying to lower the voyager's effective AC. My issue was with temporal duelist at 8th, rather than momentum itself.

Right now, I think that the voyager is suffering from a defensive downgrade that was not warranted, especially considering the class's d6 HD. Low-level voyagers suffer the most from this change; they will be eaten alive with their paltry d6 HD and minimal defensive options.

I have seen absolutely nobody ever complain about a psychic warrior (meditant) for receiving a constant Wisdom to unarmored (read: inertial armor) AC and CMD, +1 for every four levels, and that archetype is compatible with the pathwalker for initiation too. If a meditant can have that, surely a voyager can have something similar more conditionally and with a smaller bonus, no? And if not this, then Deimosaur should at least make the class d8 HD to restore some of its durability, like every other 3/4 BAB class in Paizo and Dreamscarred Press products, and/or reinstate Psionic Body as a bonus feat.

One of my two players dislikes this change mostly due to how much more of a hassle it will be to track AC and Reflex, and I must agree with them; it is certainly harder to track than simply assuming maxed-out Intelligence to AC and Reflex.

3. "Wording on fall-off clause while restrained adjusted."
Likely Prompted by: IRC chatter with Deimosaur.
My Verdict: A good change that could go a step further. It was absolutely stupid for a voyager hit with a tanglefoot bag or an entangling ectoplasm to be completely hosed out of their momentum, even with just their speed halved. That said, I think Deimosaur should also remove the "loses all of her momentum" part. A voyager who is grappled or otherwise immobilized is already in a tough enough spot; this is an emergent weakness of the class's playstyle, and I strongly doubt that the voyager needs to be screwed over even further in such situations.

4. "Accomplished Accomplice pared down to affecting only three 'known' skills. It still always can affect attack rolls and AC of the assisted character as normal. It's been a rather dominant out-of-combat bonus, this should narrow its focus a little. "
Likely Prompted by: Playtest feedback.
My Verdict: A good change. Accomplished accomplice was previously a global bonus to nearly all skill checks, which was overwhelmingly strong.

5. "Foreshadow adjusted. The immunity to attacks of opportunity from moving only applies to one selected creature, but that creature is treated as flat-footed against the voyager's next attack (with caveats, see the full text). This should give the voyager some leeway when facing enemies with counters or abilities that can actively nullify their attacks."
Likely Prompted by: Playtest feedback.
My Verdict: Mixed. On the positive side, it is nice that a voyager has this as a rock-solid option for beelining towards an enemy, attacking its flat-footed AC for extra accuracy, and denying it Deflect Arrows and immediate actions unless it has uncanny dodge. On the negative side, the old foreshadow was part and parcel of the voyager's playstyle, and I think that the old foreshadow should be preserved as an option for voyagers interested in such freedom to disengage and weave through multiple enemies. As another negative, I can see single-attacking initiators dipping into voyager just for the privilege of flat-footing enemies for accuracy and counter-denial.

6. "Pause's clause with the voyager's momentum has been adjusted. The only voyager that can avoid the miss chance of any given use of Pause should be the one who used it."
Likely Prompted by: IRC chatter with Deimosaur, exactly when I asked about this while GMing a battle.
My Verdict: A good change that could go a step further. Pause is strong because it is a miss chance that is not from concealment, which means very few effects can ignore it. Pause ramps up rapidly; a 50% miss chance on demand is quite nice by 9th level. Furthermore, Paizo's RAW for the definition of "attack" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Special-Spell-Effects) ensures that pause will stop cold even spells like slow and stinking cloud, especially since it is not concealment. And yet, I do not think this is all that out of line for this parallel action, seeing how it does little for mobility. Perhaps pause should be more explicit about its miss chance applying to any offensive combat action, so as to clarify what it can impose the miss chance on?

7. "Power list: Sensitivity to psychic impressions added."
Likely Prompted by: Playtest feedback.
My Verdict: A good change. Sensitivity to psychic impressions is history-themed, so it fits thematically, and it adds some noncombat utility to the voyager's repertoire.

8. "Added some wording to afterimage to clarify."
Likely Prompted by: Playtest feedback.
My Verdict: Mixed. One one hand, it is nice that the exact distance of moving afterimages is specified. On the other hand, if it cannot pass through creatures and objects, then that is just silly. It cannot move through allies or even a simple curtain, which is obviously something an afterimage should be able to do. Furthermore, moving afterimages is still fraught with ambiguities. Can an enemy occupy an afterimage's space? Can you move an afterimage "blindly" around a corner? Can you rewind to an afterimage that you cannot see, bypassing the line of sight restriction for parallel actions? What happens if you rewind to an afterimage when its space is already occupied by another creature? These are hardly corner cases; these have all come up at various points in my playtest games.

Bonus: Apparently, in my previous playtest, we were handling power echo incorrectly by assuming that it rounded down the power's cost. Given that all three of us at the table had misinterpreted power echo this way, perhaps its wording should be made crystal-clear by way of example.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-26, 02:43 PM

All of the above commentary on the voyager updates aside, my report on the voyager continues. We played for 6.5 hours this time. Outside of combat, the voyagers once again proved to be competent and capable skill monkeys thanks to their 6 base skill points on an Intelligence class, information exchange, and pre-downgrade accomplished accomplice. They also happened to use their time saver class feature a few times, once in the most R-rated manner possible, showcasing an unusually productive use for it of which no more shall be said.

The battle of the session was very special, and bear in mind that it was pre-momentum-AC-downgrade. The two 7th-level voyagers had a full night to rest beforehand. They knew their opponents and the battlefield: six CR 7 Hounds of Tindalos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/hound-of-tindalos) on eternal standby in the dead center of a small and claustrophobic labyrinth (https://i.imgur.com/A90MAsE.jpg). The area had a ceiling of merely ten feet, the Hounds of Tindalos could never be surprised while inside it, and the voyagers could bring into the area only those items the PCs had already owned for at least a few days.

The voyagers performed library research, which was very quick due to time saver, and quite effective due to Intelligence as a key ability score, information exchange, and pre-downgrade accomplished accomplice. The PCs earned enough information to warrant the players being given the full statistics of the Hounds of Tindalos, and they also had the exact layout of the labyrinth on hand.

The voyagers and their players were rather concerned that the Hounds of Tindalos were almost an exact counter for the PCs' abilities as mobile teleporters, and that the Hounds could effectively teleport into any square in the labyrinth as a swift action. Worse, the Hounds had air walk and could thus three-dimensionally gang up on a single PC. (There was an in-universe reason for why this counter was explicitly designed to counter the voyagers.)

The players thought long and hard on how to tackle this challenge. Ultimately, they settled on "the usual": focus on one enemy at a time; place down destiny dissonance whenever practical; use mobility from blink, dash, and the Skirmisher to elude the enemies as much as possible; and avoid being cornered. However, the players also planned on spamming the pause parallel action. Although the Hounds had Blind-Fight, that feat affects concealment, whereas the miss chance from pause is not actually concealment. Furthermore, due to Paizo's quirky definition of "attacks" in the core rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Special-Spell-Effects), pause would apply a miss chance onto the Hounds' slow spell-like ability.

The voyagers used the psionic power-sharing mechanic to manifest 7-point inertial armor for +7 AC, 7-point defensive precognition for +3 AC and saving throws, concealing amorpha for 20% concealment miss chance, touchsight to circumvent the Hounds' gaze attacks, skate for extra speed, and, for the melee non-firearm voyager, 7-point offensive precognition for a +3 bonus to attack rolls. The PCs had recently earned an NPC ally who could use magic weapon as a spell-like ability, and so for this one fight, the PCs' masterwork weapons became +1 weapons instead. This would be the fight of their lives, and so the voyagers would go nova.

In all three of the previous battles, the voyagers started off in a terrible and hope-crushing position, often bereft of buffs. The PCs would gradually make a comeback as the voyagers pieced together the enemies' mobility-based shortcomings and then used their voyager mobility abilities to exploit those weaknesses. (Somewhat like stereotypical shounen battles, really.) This battle against the Hounds of Tindalos was an inversion, as it started off extremely favorably for the voyagers, only for things to get dicey by the middle of round #4.

I had the Hounds of Tindalos act on a single initiative count. Unfortunately for the Hounds, the PCs won the initiative. During the first round, the voyagers immediately alpha-struck one of the six Hounds with a cyclops helm, placing it under a Symbol of Mercy. Afterwards, one Hound used haste, and the other four all tried to slow our PCs, but between the 40% miss chance from pause and the +3 bonus to saving throws from defensive precognition, our voyagers came out of the magical barrage completely unscathed. The Hounds surrounded the PCs, but were unable to corner them.

During the second round, the PCs provoked many attacks of opportunity due to their back-and-forth "let me build up momentum" movement and the crossfire's pistol attack. These attacks did not matter, because pause's miss chance and high AC (this was before the momentum AC downgrade) made the voyagers very difficult to hit. The PCs whittled down the HP of a second Hound of Tindalos with a different cyclops helm. So far, this was looking to be the PCs' easiest battle yet, quite ironic given how the Hounds were supposed to counter our PCs' best strengths. By the end of the second round, the remaining Hounds all tried to slow down the PCs... and a single slow slipped through pause's miss chance and high saving throws to slow the melee voyager.

Luck fell out of the PCs' favor during the third round. The voyagers still provoked many attacks of opportunity for their movement and their ranged attack, but only one of these was able to punch through pause's miss chance and high ACs, which was then sidestepped. However, untimely misses led to minimal progress in eliminating Hounds, such as the melee voyager's 7-momentum attack (their last one with full momentum while slowed!) rolling a natural 1. Additionally, the remaining four Hounds all used slow on the crossfire, and one of them finally broke pause's miss chance and high saving throws to slow the crossfire as well.

At the start of the fourth round, the slowed crossfire took a shot and evaded the one attack of opportunity that came their way due to pause's miss chance and high AC. That attack had 6 momentum and a destiny dissonance, but dissapointingly, its damage roll was pathetically low. We had to end the session there, as both of my players had to leave for other business. What was looking to be their easiest battle has since turned into something more desperate... and even worse, Deimosaur had downgraded the voyager's momentum-based AC after the battle, so the PCs will resume the battle in a more vulnerable state! Will our voyagers be able to survive against the four remaining Hounds of Tindalos, despite their spike of misfortune, their slowed status, and the AC downgrade? <= TO BE CONTINUED.

That session brought up a few quibbles:
1. Afterimage is still unclear. Why can an afterimage not move through allies and curtains? Can an enemy occupy an afterimage's space? Can you move an afterimage "blindly" around a corner? Can you rewind to an afterimage that you cannot see, bypassing the line of sight restriction for parallel actions? What happens if you rewind to an afterimage when its space is already occupied by another creature?
2. When does a character gain momentum from spending power points from their stored power pool, exactly? Can a voyager use augmented attack, manifest dissolving touch for 3 power points from stored power, and then spend the ensuing 1 momentum on that same attack?
3. When using their astral voyager class feature for astral caravan, does a voyager still have to start off with everyone (lewdly) holding hands? Or can a voyager circumvent that entirely, even at the start? This is unclear in the text.

During this battle and the last three, the crossfire's player and I have been keeping an eye on the crossfire's various options. There has been not a single turn wherein round redirection would have been more useful than a different parallel action, so perhaps it could use an upgrade. Likewise, focused shot has seen exactly one use so far, and many are the situations wherein blink would have been more appreciated. A crossfire is bound to use a pistol due to reload times, so that means getting close to the fray, and that sometimes means winding up adjacent to one or more enemies. Blink is a godsend for a crossfire who wants to easily disengage and pop off a destiny dissonance or a dissolving touch, so I would take it over focused shot any day.

I do not think the crossfire is in need of any downgrades, since the new foreshadow ensures great accuracy even for a voyager targeting regular AC.

Pause is strong, but I do not think it needs a change, since it is an important defensive option in a voyager's repertoire.

I hope to see the voyager class polished further and further as the days go on. It has been a joy to GM for these two voyagers in combat, given their mobile and dynamic playstyles. I think that an optimized voyager's combat playstyle is even more interesting than an optimized initiator's playstyle, because while the latter can simply explode everything mindlessly, an optimized voyager actually has to think carefully about positioning and the best way to use their class features from turn to turn. I adore how Deimosaur has somehow managed to create such an interesting combat playstyle.

Tariyan Draegr

2017-11-26, 04:26 PM

*snip*

I have to say, I usually just wait on most DSP classes to end up in my inbox at months end after reading the initial playtest because I enjoy being surprised at what changes and I usually can't roll up a new character to playtest with at a moments notice but your absolutely constant glowing reviews of the class makes me want to break tradition

Deimosaur

2017-11-26, 11:32 PM

Updated Temporal Duelist, building on its niche of "specialized defense against one enemy", in a voyager-ey manner.

And a (minor) wording update to Stored Power, to make when the voyager gets momentum from spending the extra power points more clear.

Pause has been adjusted slightly. Given it's found its niche as a good defensive tool, it doesn't need to preserve momentum as it had before.

The players thought long and hard on how to tackle this challenge. Ultimately, they settled on "the usual": focus on one enemy at a time; place down destiny dissonance whenever practical; use mobility from blink, dash, and the Skirmisher to elude the enemies as much as possible; and avoid being cornered. However, the players also planned on spamming the pause parallel action. Although the Hounds had Blind-Fight, that feat affects concealment, whereas the miss chance from pause is not actually concealment. Furthermore, due to Paizo's quirky definition of "attacks" in the core rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Special-Spell-Effects), pause would apply a miss chance onto the Hounds' slow spell-like ability.
To be fair, concealment uses the wording of "attacks" as well. With this ruling, the miss chance from concealment would affect this slow SLA as well.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-27, 03:44 AM

In light of destiny dissonance being back at 1st level in the voyager power list, I am currently building a 7th-level voyager. I am compensating for the recent loss of some of the voyager's momentum-based AC by taking Expanded Knowledge (force screen), which grants a +4 shield bonus to AC for 1 minute per level, for the low cost of 1 power point. Between that and inertial armor, I am quickly discovering that the best strategy for such a voyager is to take Mobility from the bonus feat list, spam pause for a parallel action, and then run around the battlefield willy-nilly, safe in the knowledge that enemies will almost certainly have great difficulty in hitting the voyager.

I worry that this will be a dominant build, and that it will sabotage the tactical depth of the voyager by having a spammable, low-risk combat tactic available. Am I overreacting? How can this be fixed? Should Mobility be replaced in the voyager bonus feat list with something else? Should the pause parallel action not apply against attacks of opportunity?

This is what a voyager has to resort to for navigating an enemy-crowded battlefield now that the old foreshadow is gone.

Also, it seems that Deimosaur went and gave pause a downgrade, even when I said that pause was just fine and did not need the downgrade. This seems a little arbitrary and overreactionary. I think that Deimosaur should reinstate the "preserve momentum" function, yet bar pause from affecting attacks of opportunity, making it less of a "run around the battlefield unscathed" option.

Perhaps pause should only work from the end of your turn to the start of your next turn?

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-11-28, 03:10 PM

Proposed set of solutions: Say that the momentum bonus is an untyped bonus to AC, CMD, and Reflex. It is a force effect (flavored as a momentum barrier) that does not stack with shield bonuses that come from force effects. Then, make pause only work from the end of your turn to the start of your turn. Finally, replace Mobility on the bonus feat list with something else.

This way, there is no force screen stacking, and pause cannot be used to tank attacks of opportunity.

Deimosaur

2017-11-28, 05:02 PM

These changes below are overall oriented towards making a tabletop experience faster, along with some balance/thematic concerns.

Afterimage:
For the sake of simplicity, afterimages now move according to the same 'rules' as the voyager. They are hindered by difficult terrain if the voyager would be. On the flip side, if the voyager has a climb or fly speed, the afterimage can move according to how those speeds work.

Stored Power:
Stored power's wording has been clarified to grant momentum after the power points are spent.

Parallel Actions:
Assisted escape is always going to be somewhat situational, but its use cases have been expanded somewhat. Simply knowing assisted escape is somewhat valuable now, in emergencies where simply being 5 feet away from her location is important, the voyager can use it as an immediate action by expending her psionic focus.

Foreshadow's path distance has been reduced, but the path's abilities have been improved (becoming a mix of the old and new versions). This means drawing the path is less annoying for the rest of the party, and the path itself is more meaningful to the voyager. I believe that at some point foreshadow was also made so that paths do not have to start from the voyager's position, so this should encourage voyagers to draw directly where they think they'll need foreshadow's benefits rather than covering every space available with their speed.

Pause and shifting steps have been switched (and rebalanced) for a number of reasons: thematic and balance. After seeing pause in play for a while now, I'm not happy with its current location and use. I'll just go ahead and admit that shifting steps was initially designed as a variant to pause, so I believe the theme of old shifting steps is usable for pause.

Using pause every turn on herself meant the voyager has a permanent, scaling concealing amorpha-esque effect. As a direct comparison to a power, I'm uncomfortable with it being available this early. The appeal of pause as a semi-permanent concealing amorpha, 'free' was enough to stomach not using any other parallel actions in some cases.

Paradox shift (new shifting steps) doesn't have to include as much awkward text about scaling miss chance. It also doesn't allow the voyager to circumvent it through use of momentum (after all, that is a rather trivial cost). Now it will be reserved for when the voyager needs safety on herself, or to take an enemy out of the fight somewhat, at the cost of making them harder to eliminate. It's worth noting that heartseeker or seeking weapons could start becoming available for the voyager and possibly her enemies at this time.

AHeroNamedHawke

2017-11-28, 06:48 PM

Longtime Path of War lover here, I've been playing a bit with the Voyager at early levels and reading over the rest of the class. While I still have to do more testing, there are a few things concerning me.

Power Channel
I was initially excited by this prospect, having recently picked up several Psywar builds (including an abuse of Share Power with Vigor and Psicrystals), but upon rereading realized you're limited by your level for spending momentum and power points. I do not feel like very many powers hold up to the loss of momentum damage (Save 1 point wonders like Destiny Dissonance and Inevitable Strike), making the ability very niche in its use or reserved for turns in which you just want to self buff and do low damage on an attack. The Voyager has a small pool to begin with, so I feel like allowing some casting outside of their level wouldn't cause a huge issue.

Shot on the Run
I'm a little unclear on the exact wording here, as the difference between Attack and Attack Action has always been a point of contention, but to my understanding you cannot use Augmented Attacks with this feat. That limitation makes it basically useless, where I feel like it has potential for more interesting positioning and movement. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Initiators vs base Pathfinder
As far as I can tell, the Voyager excels at kiting standard Pathfinder enemies, due to a great deal of them lacking the speed to keep up. In the context of base PF, their design is almost perfect for a skirmisher and works very well. However, when faced with PoW opponents, their speed becomes much less impressive with the prevalence of charge maneuvers, and their primary method of attack becomes a liability. Any stalker they come across will be able to counter their Foreshadow augmented attacks with little trouble, and leave them with no recourse. Anyone with a Feint can drop them fairly easily, as their only survivability comes from dodge bonuses, their speed and Deflect. Conversely, anything without Feint can do little to interact if they rely on single attacks, even full initiators. That's more due to Sidestep, and they have a small point pool to compensate.

Rewind
Easily the best Parallel action, and I love it. I do however feel like it greatly overshadows other actions, especially some of the later ones. Both Stretched Time and Special Delivery are fairly disappointing by comparison, while Power Echo is limited by what I outlined above. Foreshadow, Rewind and Assisted Escape appear to be the most effective actions overall, so I think Dual Threat could use a bit more oomph. Combo Strike I have yet to experiment with, though 3/4 BAB Dex classes tend to struggle landing Combat Maneuvers. I also feel like Pause was nerfed too hard; the reduction of speed requiring you to be adjacent to your enemy does not feel like something I'd want to use due to the save, since you'd have to begin or end your turn next to an enemy and quite possibly die to a full attack.

Metronome
As the other guy said, best archetype hands down. Having to wait to use your Parallel action can leave you wide open if your Afterimage got a bad roll, and I'd much rather take the penalty to initiative than delay my first turn by -8. It feels great to use, but baseline Voyager could probably use something to compete with it.

Melee vs Crossfire Voyager
From yet another limited experience, and especially with the Foreshadow change, I feel like melee Voyagers are much weaker than their ranged counterparts. Most of their damage comes from Momentum anyway, and ranged characters have much greater freedom to build it up. On top of that, anything in range is free to interrupt their manifesting, and they have a much harder time getting away after an attack. This can easily lead to them getting dogpiled after their opening move, unless they use a Metronome Rewind and can charge an enemy every round.

Overall I'm quite pleased with the class so far, and will be watching your updates closely.

Galacktic

2017-11-28, 06:48 PM

AHeroNamedHawke

2017-11-28, 06:53 PM

I just checked the document and couldn't find Shifting Steps anywhere in there. I think it was forgotten!

It's called Paradox Shift now, under 11th level actions.

Deimosaur

2017-12-01, 02:55 PM

Foreshadow got too good. Oops. I'm taking the flat-footed mechanic off of it. For starters, it was far too easy to trigger. Flat-footing an enemy should have a greater cost to it, both build-wise and action wise. So . . .

I'm adding two feats to the document, forming a small chain in conjunction with already-existing feats. Slipstream Feint lets a character feint in a different sort of way, and Blink Ambush brings in the ability to flat-foot enemies after feinting them.

This makes it available to voyagers who didn't take that parallel action . . . and also other types of characters qualify for it!

MilleniaAntares

2017-12-01, 11:25 PM

I don't like Voyager Knowledge a lot. It can be simplified quite a bit.

Here's a suggestion, with some of the wording taken from the monk bonus feats:

At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the voyager adds a special trick to her psionic repertoire. The voyager may select a bonus feat that must be taken from the following list:

Acrobatic Steps, Blind-Fight, Expanded Knowledge, Mobility, Momentous Maneuvers, Quick Draw, and Up The Walls

At 7th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Cloak Dance, Deflect Arrows, Mixed Combat, Shot on the Run, Relentless Shot, and Trick Shooter

At 13th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Circuitous Shot, Cartwheel Dodge, Knockdown Shot, Snap Shot, and Return Shot

Deimosaur

2017-12-02, 02:10 AM

Some of you might notice that manifestation of speed's opening looks significantly different. Don't worry, nothing has really changed. Brief clarifications have been added where needed, and the order in which the voyager makes her decisions has been determined.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-04, 12:13 PM

Last week on the great voyager playtest, the two fully-buffed, 7th-level voyagers were four rounds into a battle against a pack of six CR 7 Hounds of Tindalos. Such fearsome entities hunt down spacetime-manipulators and have abilities to hard-counter such characters. Worse, due to storyline reasons, the characters had no choice but to confront the Hounds in a tight and cramped space so full of angles that the Hounds could teleport as a swift action to any spot on the map.

Half a week ago, we restarted the battle. Unfortunately, by that time, Deimosaur had issued vast and sweeping changes to the voyager. I restarted the battle, this time upgrading the enemies to six CR 8 advanced Hounds of Tindalos; against all odds, the party still won initiative and achieved victory regardless. However, soon after the combat concluded, Deimosaur issued more major changes to the voyager again, so the playtest data was for nothing. Therefore, it is completely worthless to talk about that battle, except to say that the older version of the foreshadow parallel action that automatically flat-footed an enemy was quite strong.

Let us talk about the current state of the voyager. Despite the extensive downgrades from the last few updates, in terms of power and flexibility, the voyager is comparable to some of Paizo's stronger half-casters, like unarchetyped hunters, archer unarchetyped inquisitors, archer inquisitors (sacred huntmaster), or occultists (haunt collector) with the Trappings of the Warrior. It has nowhere near the broad utility and power of an inquisitor (monster tactician) or a summoner, nor can it stack up to third-party flexible powerhouses like an aether blade avowed, an aether barrage avowed, or a kineticist (gambler). It certainly cannot match up to the combat strength of even a middlingly-optimized Path of War initiator (something I have personally seen in five actual battles).

Nevertheless, the voyager is rather "janky" in multiple fields that feel clunky and disappointing to gain and use. I think that the voyager could use some small upgrades in these areas. This may ramp up its strength and flexibility, but the voyager would feel better and more empowering to play, and it still would not match up to inquisitors (monster tactician), summoners, aether blade avowed, aether barrage avowed, kineticist (gamblers), or, with regards to combat potency, middlingly-optimized initiators.

Clunky and Unclear Rules: None of the below are edge cases. All of the following questions arose during actual gameplay of our latest playtest sessions, which took place two days ago and yesterday. These areas in the voyager's mechanics were so janky that they tripped up both of the players and even soured the mood of one player.
• 1st Level: Momentum: Does a voyager gain momentum for forced movement, such as from being bull rushed? Does a voyager gain momentum from falling? In our latest playtest sessions, the voyagers were using their high movement speeds and boots of speed to eke out slightly more momentum by making ten-foot-high jumps at certain points in their turn.
• 2nd Level: Manifestation of Speed: Blink and Dash: Since the psychoportation discipline's rules lack the magic rules' provision against teleporting to open spaces, can blink be used to teleport a voyager three-dimensionally? Likewise, what happens if a melee voyager jumps up and attacks an enemy? Can they use blink three-dimensionally then, during the jump? Can they use dash three-dimensionally during the jump, like some sort of video-game-style "air dash" or "jump cancel"?
• 2nd Level: Manifestation of Speed: Power Channel: What does it mean to "simultaneously" manifest the power? How does the timing here work, exactly? The example that came up during actual gameplay was manifesting touchsight simultaneously as an attack against an invisible opponent; would the attack be made with total concealment?
• 3rd Level: Afterimage: By far the single jankiest class feature of the voyager. This tripped up both of the players, even soured the mood of one player, and brought the game to a grinding halt at a few points. How do afterimages actually move? Can they make Acrobatics checks, Climb checks, or Swim checks? What skill bonuses do they use? If they have such limited movement speed, do they take a penalty to Acrobatics checks made to jump? Is their movement quartered/halved when using Climb or Swim? Can an afterimage make Stealth checks to hide? Does an afterimage occupy a space? Can it enter an enemy's space? Can enemies enter an afterimage's space?
All of these (except for the Stealth issue) would be non-issues if Deimosaur simply rolled back the update and reverted afterimages to be like illusory figments, which could be freely "flown" around. Freeform "flight" for afterimages originally made rewind quite useful for mobility around and over obstacles. The current afterimage operates clunkily, demands rolling and adjudicating skills for a "creature, but not really a creature," and undermines the mobility of rewind.
• 5th Level: Astral Voyager: Does this take a standard action to use as per psi-like abilities (standard action planar travel at 5th level!), or an hour? Is it automatically augmented, as is standard for psi-like abilities?
Furthermore, this is not so much murkiness with astral voyager as it is with astral caravan itself, but perhaps the voyager class can stealthily patch this up: astral caravan says that "you appear on your chosen plane within 10–1,000 (1d% x 10) miles of your intended destination on that plane," but who determines the direction? The manifester? The GM? Random chance? If it is determined by random chance, since psychoportation lacks the rule against appearing in an open space, does this mean that you can arrive in outer space? Perhaps the astral voyager class feature should stealthily patch this by specifying that the voyager gets to choose the direction.
• 7th Level: Temporal Duelist: Is an enemy aware that they can break the effect by moving outside of the voyager's close range? This came up mid-game when I, the GM, had a monster move out of close range to fire a ranged touch attack at the temporally-dueling voyager. Furthermore, if an enemy does move outside of close range, is the temporal duelist effect cancelled (i.e. it must be reestablished with another swift action), or merely suppressed?

Disappointing Features: Some features of the voyager are rather disappointing and anticlimactic. It would be nice to see them improved:
• 1st Level: Class Skills: It would really be nice if the voyager had all Knowledge skills as class skills, as certain skill monkey classes do. The voyager is supposed to be a skill monkey who, to quote the class description, "always know more than she should," and yet a voyager receives a Knowledge-related class feature only at 6th level. It would support a voyager's Intelligence-based skill monkey role to have all Knowledges in-class.
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: The separate initiative mechanic is unreliable, enough that every voyager I have seen so far has been a metronome and has not regretted it. There needs to be a more potent incentive to being a vanilla voyager; perhaps the parallel turn should start at a smaller penalty, and eventually become a bonus?
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: Accomplished Accomplice: Having to roll the aid another is clunky, particularly when it is nearly an automatic success by 3rd-level anyway. It also means that 1st- and 2nd-level voyagers have the most trouble actually using accomplished accomplice, for no good reason. This should simply be a flat bonus decoupled from aid another, especially since it does not interact with any upgrades to aid another anyway.
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: Assisted Escape: Although it solves one of the voyager's greatest weaknesses (getting knocked prone), it is still too situational to be worth taking. Expending psionic focus and an immediate action to use this out-of-turn is rather costly, because maintaining psionic focus is hugely important for a voyager due to Speed of Thought, and a voyager is too feat-starved early on to spring for Psionic Meditation (which would cost precious move actions anyway).
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: Combo Strike: A 3/4 BAB, Strength-dumping class simply is not going to be able to make much use of these combat maneuvers, let alone against mid/high-level monsters.
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: Dual Threat: If this allowed a voyager to designate a 10-by-10-foot square or so, then I would consider picking this up, but with a 5-by-5-foot square, this is lacking in oomph. Even a reach weapon leaves gaps in threatened areas.
• 1st Level: Parallel Action: Foreshadow: In my game, we have reached the point wherein drawing the path for foreshadow has become clunky to use. Furthermore, the players liked using the original foreshadow and its greater degree of freedom in avoiding attacks of opportunity. It is nice that the new foreshadow lets a character pass through enemies, but that undermines rewind (which has already been undermined by the downgrade to afterimage movement). The original foreshadow would be welcome, and it would not overlap with rewind, as our older playtest sessions' experiences had shown.
• 2nd Level: Manifestation of Speed: Dash: This really, really needs to not provoke attacks of opportunity. Otherwise, non-reach melee voyagers without Narcissism (The Skirmisher) are stuck either blowing power points to blink or spamming foreshadow in order to attack and then replenish thier momentum by dashing away. Ranged voyagers have no such problem.
• 3rd Level: Afterimage (and Parallel Action: Rewind): I have already covered above why this is clunky to use and has been undermined by updates.
• 3rd Level: Parallel Action: Pause: Complete and utter garbage. It sometimes allows a voyager to shut down the movement of enemies with middling movement speeds... if they fail a Will saving throw. Even if they do, the voyager's speed is still debuffed, and speed is of vital essence to a voyager.
• 5th Level: Astral Voyager: A voyager receives this as a class feature. A voyager is supposed to be good at traveling the Astral Plane and dealing with its challenges. However, the Astral Plane's subjective directional gravity is Wisdom-based, and a voyager cannot make use of its Quicken Spell benefit, as a voyager most likely shies away from standard action mid-combat powers. Perhaps a voyager should receive Intelligence-based subjective directional gravity, and some manifesting benefits while in the Astral Plane?
• 5th Level: Manifestation of Speed: Lightning Focus: A voyager seldom wants to expend psionic focus due to the importance of Speed of Thought, and Psionic Meditation costs a precious move action. 3 momentum is an inconvenient price. I have seen voyagers in play in many, many battles by this point, and I have seen lightning focus used exactly once. This, along with the fact that astral voyager is a ribbon in most games, makes 5th level a very disappointing level indeed.
• 7th Level: Parallel Action: All three of them at this level: These are all terribly underwhelming and situational. They need a revamp to be of any use. I have seen stretched time used not a single time, and power echo's only use so far has been saving power points on two manifestations of metaphysical weapon at the start of an adventuring workday.
• 12th Level: Improved Evasion: It simply is not very meaningful to gain improved evasion when a voyager's Reflex is likely through the roof and bloated by momentum. This is effectively a dead level.
• 13th Level: Manifestation of Speed: Shove: Considering that this is a 13th-level ability, this should not allow a saving throw, especially seeing how bull rush does not allow a saving throw either. Maybe this could be forced teleportation (not into the air, unless the target can fly) too for so high-level a feature.
• 15th Level: Parallel Action: Emergency Stasis: Completely and utterly dreck. Not only do you need to set this up beforehand, but it only works when you are dead, an absolute worst-case scenario. Compared to reversal of fortune right below it, which is constant 5e-style advantage both in and out of combat, emergency stasis is terribly niche. It needs to be replaced with something that gives as much ground-shaking advantage (no pun intended) as reversal of fortune, in and out of battle.
• 17th Level: Manifestation of Speed: Greater Multitask: I am having a hard time seeing where this will be of use. Surely, power channel and (regular) multitask alone will be able to cover a voyager's mid-battle manifesting needs?
• 20th Level: Eternity Awaits: This is one of the weaker 20th-level features I have seen, mostly because it does nothing for you while you are still alive. For comparison, the rajah's 20th-level feature comes with a major benefit that applies at all times, in addition to its self-resurrection benefit. Perhaps eternity awaits could use a similar passive benefit?
• Feats: Slipstream Feint and Blink Ambush: These are supposed to solve the issue of a voyager being completely screwed over by Deflect Arrows, deflect, sidestep, Path of War counters, and similar abilties, since a voyager is so heavily-dependent on singular attacks. However, sinking three feats towards Blink Ambush is too heavy an investment that most players would hardly ever consider. Two feats, maybe, but three feats, certainly not.

I suppose I should talk about the two playtest characters I am running for. They are 8th-level by now. Both are hummingbird tengu, because it is an extremely optimal race for a voyager without resorting to construct type cheese or fly speed cheese: -2 Strength (irrelevant), +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, Small size for Stealth and accuracy, and, for a melee voyager, free elven curve blade proficiency. They are both metronomes, because until Deimosaur buffs vanilla voyagers, there is no good reason not to reap the benefits of the metronome archetype. Both have cyclops helms and boots of speed by this point.

One character is a melee voyager with an elven curve blade, and the other is a voyager (crossfire) with a pistol. They both have Narcissism (The Skirmisher) to help replenish momentum after attacking, and it is especially useful for the melee voyager, who would provoke attacks of opportunity with dash otherwise. It would sure be nice if Deimosaur was to let dash avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, thereby making Narcissism (The Skirmisher) and blink less mandatory for a melee voyager.

As per Deimosaur's request, I have recently imposed a ban on the psionic power-sharing mechanic, so as not to distort the playtest data. The characters' powers known are literally all combat powers, 0-level powers aside. This is perhaps due to my specific GMing style, which places heavy emphasis on mundane infiltration skills, Knowledge skills, and social skills; in my interpretation of Golarion, people are savvy on how magic/psionics work, they are wary of magical/psionic trickery, and they implement all kinds of countermeasures against magic/psionics, so utility spells/powers are in a more tenuous position. Furthermore, my combats are extremely difficult and very high-stakes. Therefore, in my Pathfinder campaigns, the kind of characters who flourish are skill monkeys and combat machines.

The characters use inertial armor (hours per level), force screen (via Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat), defensive precognition, concealing amorpha, deflect, and sidestep to make them nigh-untouchable by most attack rolls against AC. They have stupidly, stupidly high AC given those buffs, which is why I have tried to shake things up every so often by including surprise battles that offer no buffing time. This is less of a voyager problem and more of a psionics problem; psionic powers are hilariously good for stacking AC astronomically high. A psychic warrior (meditant) can have even higher AC constantly, and they can also be a pathwalker and an awakened blade for full initiation.

The characters are at their strongest against enemies that...
• Rely on melee full attacks and lack pounce. The voyagers can simply skirmish away from them with ease, and throw up a sidestep against the few attacks that do land.
• Rely on attacking regular AC to take out targets, presuming the voyagers have had time to buffs. The voyagers have titanic regular AC. Even pouncers and ranged full attackers must face the nigh-impregnable AC of the characters. Even a highly-damaging attack benefiting from true strike can be turned aside via deflect or sidestep.
• Rely on forcing Reflex saving throws, due to momentum bloating Reflex saves.

The characters have some trouble with enemies that...
• Target touch AC, because those blow straight past inertial armor and force screen.
• Think to substitute regular melee attacks with trip attacks, which likewise go past inertial armor and force screen. Tripping is awful for a voyager's mobility prospects, especially if the voyager opted against selecting assisted escape.
• Can land a grapple or an immobilizing entanglement against a voyager, such as via black tentacles. Even if the voyager escapes via assisted escape or rewind, crashing the voyager's momentum down to 0 at the start of their turn is terribly inconvenient.
• Have 15+ feet of reach, which forces a voyager to think more carefully about how to engage and disengage. Combat Reflexes makes such enemies especially irritating.
• Have spell resistance to resist a destiny dissonance, as the voyagers make good use of no-save sickening enemies to reduce their accuracy even further.

The characters are absolutely terrified by...
• Enemies that have Deflect Arrows, deflect, sidestep, Path of War counters, or similar abilities, because voyagers live and die by singular attacks. Slipstream Feint and Blink Ambush are supposed to solve this, but they really need to be compressed down to a two-feat chain rather than three.
• Enemies that can target their Fortitude with a save-or-lose. With their poor Fortitude progression, the only defense they can throw up is the saving throw bonus from defensive precognition.
• In the same vein as above yet to a lesser extent, enemies that can target their Will with a save-or-lose. They at least have a good Will progression.

Voyager with elven curve blade vs. voyager (crossfire) with pistol:
• The melee voyager deals more damage on a hit, has one more feat to spare, is spending a power known on offensive precognition, does not provoke for attacking, enjoys no misfire hassles, has helping hand for some utility, has a viable attack of opportunity, and is faster. They are less accurate, but if a fully-augmented offensive precognition buff up, this only makes a difference against extremely high-CR enemies. It is generally never an issue for a melee voyager to close in to attack, but they might have trouble disengaging to rebuild momentum unless theyhave a reach weapon, have Narcissism (The Skirmisher), blow power points to blink, or spam foreshadow.
• The ranged voyager deals less damage on a hit, has one less feat to spend, never has to spend a power known on offensive precognition, provokes for attacking, suffers misfire hassles, has no helping hand, has no feasible attack of opportunity, and is slower. They are more accurate, but compared to a melee voyager with a fully-augmented offensive precognition buff up, this only makes a difference against extremely high-CR enemies.
• Overall, I would say that the voyager (crossfire) is slightly better. The ranged voyager is better off in comparison when the melee voyager has no time or power points for an offensive precognition, when the party is facing awfully high-CR enemies, or both. If either or both conditions apply, the voyager (crossfire) is in a better position. Given that a fully-augmented offensive precognition has a hefty power point cost, and that a crossfire does not have to consume a power known on that, I would give the edge to the voyager (crossfire) here.

Back to our latest playtest sessions, which took place two days ago and yesterday. (The restart of the Hounds of Tindalos battle took place earlier than these, separately.) We played for a total of 16.5 hours, and during the second session, we went through two battles. The party has leveled up to 8th since then, with a small amount of rebuilding prompted by Deimosaur's major changes to the class. The noncombat sections of the sessions were the usual: skill monkeying around using the voyager's 6 + Intelligence modifier skill points, compressing research time using time saver.

Over the course of these sessions, the PCs formulated a scheme based around astral voyager; I am a Planescape/Great Wheel GM at heart, so I implement more planar action than most GMs in my games. This is where the rules quibbles concerning astral voyager came up.

During both battles, the characters had the following buffs up beforehand: 7-point inertial armor, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, 7-point defensive precognition, 3-point concealing amorpha, 1-point force screen, and, in the case of the melee voyager, 7-point offensive precognition.

First Battle of the Session:
• Enemies: Two supposedly CR 11 spinosauruses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/dinosaur-spinosaurus)
• Terrain and Starting Positions (https://i.imgur.com/dTAKuDX.png) (the cat and the narwhal girl are afterimage markers)
• Terrain Gimmick #1: This was an enclosed space with a ceiling height of 40 feet.
• Terrain Gimmick #2: The grey squares on the map were not difficult terrain, but rather, increased Acrobatics DCs by 2.
• Terrain Gimmick #3: The aqua squares used the rules for whitewater rapids (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquatic-terrain). It took a Swim DC 20 to cross. If you ended your turn there, you were swept 90 feet towards the right edge of the map harmlessly, although this provoked attacks of opportunity. The spinosauruses were too large and too swimming-adept to be affected by this. The PCs had boots of speed and bloated Acrobatics modifiers that allowed them to wuxia-jump from the island to the river bank with ease, which they did during the first round.
• Intended Difficulty: Easy, but annoying.
• Initiative Results: The spinosauruses first, then the voyagers.
• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The voyager (crossfire).
• Parallel Actions: Mostly foreshadow, with the occasional rewind.
• Power Points Expended: 4 points for the melee voyager (sidestep and destiny dissonance), 7 points for the ranged voyager (two sidesteps and one destiny dissonance).
• Battle Duration: 4 rounds.
• Murky Rules (see above): Due to the importance of using Acrobatics to jump across the river and the threat of having to make Swim checks, we encountered all sorts of questions with regards to how afterimages actually worked. This was rather janky, and it held up the battle unpleasantly. The players were both disgruntled.
• Notes on Actual Play: The dinosaurs gave the PCs trouble in positioning themselves due to their 20-foot-reach and overlapping threatened areas. The limited-path foreshadow really begun to sting here.
• The saurians used trip attempts to restrict the ranged voyager's mobility. The spinosauruses still had great trouble hitting the prone crossfire due to terribly bloated AC, concealing amorpha, momentum, temporal duelist, and sidestep. Nevertheless, one managed to grapple the crossfire while she was prone, which placed her in a terribly inconvenient position and drained all her momentum. It took pains for her to rebuild momentum after that, because starting a turn prone, with 0 momentum, and with an immediate/swift unavailable essentially forces a voyager into taking a feeble turn with a weak attack.
• Despite this, all was looking to be an easy fight, since the enemies had such a hard time dealing damage... until, against all odds, one spinosaurus landed a critical hit on an attack of opportunity on the melee voyager despite her concealing amorpha], bloated AC, and freshly-activated temporal duelist. Since she had just used a swift action, her immediate action was unavailable. The damage roll was well above-average, sending her to -1 hit point. She at least rolled a natural 20 on her Fortitude save against Staggering Critical. This complicated an otherwise easy battle. The ranged voyager had to use her Combat Training ([I]staunching strike) to get the melee voyager back up, and the melee voyager was likewise forced into taking a feeble turn with a weak attack. They won the easy fight all the same after that wildly improbable complication, with both of them left standing.

Second Battle of the Session:
• Enemies: Four supposedly CR 8 blood hags (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/hag-blood). These were special blood hags that had see in darkness, and they started the battle already in fiery form.
• Terrain and Starting Positions (https://i.imgur.com/Ft6l9kT.png)
• Terrain Gimmick #1: Unexpectedly, the area was shrouded in supernatural darkness. The voyagers had to manifest touchsight during their first turn.
• Terrain Gimmick #2: The picture you see above is actually a side view. The battle took place in a seven-foot-wide corridor (five-foot-wide for all game purposes), broken up by many solid platforms. As long as the creatures inside had some method of seeing in supernatural darkness, they would be treated to an out-of-body "side view" of the action in silhouette form, like a shadow play. (Or rather, a platformer video game.)
• Terrain Gimmick #3: The floating platforms were 10 feet apart vertically, forcing daunting DC 40 Acrobatics checks for vertically leaps. Fortunately, thanks to the voyagers' high movement speeds on top of boots of speed, they were able to make multiple jumps during each move action and easily navigate the platforms.
• Intended Difficulty: Hard.
• Initiative Results: The blood hags first, then the voyagers. The blood hags spent the first round getting into position, while the PCs simply used touchsight.
• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The voyagers could never fully avoid the blood hags' attacks, yet they managed to reposition themselves in such a way as to split the fire. Literal fire, as the hags spammed scorching ray.
• Parallel Actions: A mix of foreshadow and rewind to position the party so as to break up focused fire, although those were not especially important in this battle, so accomplished accomplice saw a couple of uses to raise AC, and fast-forward saw a single use to move 130 feet and reach a very high-up blood hag.
• Power Points Expended: 5 points for each for touchsight during the first round.
• Battle Duration: 7 rounds.
• Murky Rules (see above): This battle saw plenty of platforming and jumping action, and so many questions concerning nonstandard acquisitions of momentum and midair usage of blink and dash were raised. Likewise, the question of potentially manifesting touchsight during an augmented attack came up, making us wonder how the timing actually worked. Additionally, I had the hags realize the limitations of temporal duelist and move away enough of a distance to deactivate it, which brought up the concerns on temporal duelist.
• Notes on Actual Play: It was a mistake to use scorching ray spammers during this battle. What I should have done was employ Medium-sized pouncers of greater raw strength, so that the voyagers could better make use of the layout to deny enemies attacks. The blood hags were able to fly and shoot the PCs with impunity, so the voyagers could never quite avoid attacks; the best they could do was make clever use of rewind to split up focused (literal) fire, which was admittedly very important for preserving the party's action economy.
• I had accidentally made this fight far too difficult. This was by far the hardest battle so far, hands-down. I underestimated just how terrifying it would be to face touch-attackers who could blow past inertial armor and force screen for massive damage via scorching ray. If the spinosaurus battle was easy yet complicated by a stroke of luck from one enemy, this was the opposite: the PCs won primarily due to sheer luck. The enemies' ranged touch attacks were stopped cold by concealing amorpha and mediocre rolls against relatively high touch AC.
• The PCs employed their usual tactic of focusing down one enemy at a time. They were reliably able to navigate the platforms using Acrobatics, and then take down one hag each round. They got the situation under control quickly enough, though an untimely natural 1 on an attack rolls from the melee voyager proved a mild complication, thus ending the battle with the ranged voyager (crossfire) unconscious and dying. Fortunately, smelling salts and a self-inflicted Combat Training (staunching strike) got her back up after the battle. The players enjoyed that battle very much, if only because they did not have to deal with afterimage positioning jankiness as much, and because they found hopping around with Acrobatics and then slyly snapping back to an afterimage via rewind was cool.

I had also run two bonus battles outside of the session, completely on my own as a GM. These were nothing but pure formalities to preemptively counter "How can you say you tested the voyagers' limits if you never made them face Fortitude/Will-save-or-lose monsters?" Consider them "joke battles," then. I expected the PCs to lose, but I did not think they would lose so easily. The characters both had their full suite of buffs.

First "Joke Battle":
• Enemy: One supposedly CR 8 gorgon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/gorgon) with the advanced template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1), raising it to CR 9.
• Terrain and Starting Positions: A wide white room with a ceiling 15 feet high. The gorgon started 90 feet away from the voyagers, who were 10 feet away from each other.
• Intended Difficulty: Very hard.
• Initiative Results: The gorgon first, then the voyagers.
• Battle Duration: 3 rounds.
• Notes on Actual Play: The PCs fell prey to ill luck and were curbstomped. The gorgon immediately petrified them, and then rolled a total of 2 on its recharge roll. The PCs could never quite break out of the DC 23 Fortitude petrification. On the third round, the gorgon petrified them for good. Perhaps this was just ill luck though.

Second "Joke Battle":
• Enemy: One supposedly CR 9 fallen young silver dragon, as statted by Paizo (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/dragon.html).
• Terrain and Starting Positions: A wide white room with a ceiling 15 feet high. The young white dragon started 90 feet away from the voyagers, who were 10 feet away from each other.
• Intended Difficulty: Extremely hard.
• Initiative Results: The fallen young silver dragon first, then the voyagers.
• Battle Duration: 1 round.
• Notes on Actual Play: The dragon went first, unleashed its paralyzing breath, and paralyzed the PCs for 5 rounds. That won the fight right then and there.

I suppose the moral of the story is that if you want to take down a pair of voyagers, the wrong thing to send is not a pack of advanced Hounds of Tindalos, tailor-bred to lock down spacetime-manipulators. You should just send Fortitude-save-or-lose enemies. This is, of course, more of a problem with Pathfinder in general than the voyager in particular. There is little that Deimosaur can do to fix this particular issue.

I hope that this feedback will be of use to Deimosaur in helping polish the voyager. Due to its unique and novel design alone and the dynamic battle styles it encourages, the voyager is easily my favorite class in all of Pathfinder and third-party Pathfinder. I would like to see it flourish.

Mezzaluna

2017-12-04, 01:25 PM

Hiya, some of my own thoughts on what Edna said.

Skills:
I don't think it should have all knowledge skills in-class; maybe if Voyager Knowledge made the selected skill a class skill it would be effectively the same with less of a perception of power issue? It's more of a /flavor/ issue, really: most of the classes with all knowledge skills as class skills are the really studious ones, and not even the 'poster child' skill monkey, the Rogue, gets those.

Assisted Escape:
I think the speed-based extra psionic focus feat helps with this decent enough to make it an emergency button, as well as Lightning Focus to regain the emergency button. Could be stronger, but okay as is. Prone and Entangled are such big weaknesses that I think it's not a bad pick.

Combo Strike:
Completely agree. I also think the feat taxes to make it even passable are too much; Maneuver Augmentation should be built in and isn't worth a feat. Making a combat maneuver at +X bonus is already way worse a use of your standard action than a Manifestation of Speed attack with +Xd6 damage. It needs Maneuver Augmentation to even be worth considering as an option now, really.

Manifestation of Speed: Dash
I actually disagree with this one a fair bit, letting the movement ignore AoO devalues the teleport option too much. I think it's fine as is and should stay provoking. This does tie in a bit to the melee vs ranged voyager issue though - this is an issue that ranged builds have to worry about much less, and I'm not sure what to do about that.

Pause:
Agree, it's not worth using how it is right now. Probably wouldn't pick it over the other two even if it didn't have a save.

There's... a lot more for me to address individually but those were the main things that stood out for me to add to or disagree with, because that's the playrange I've seen so far with my Voyager experience.

I hope everything turns out well too! I'm really interested to see how the Voyager shapes up. Manifestation of Speed's Blink and Dash options in their current form go a long way in giving the class a dynamic playstyle in its current form and I hope it can keep that dynamism at it goes up in levels.

Deimosaur

2017-12-04, 05:12 PM

Aaaaah.

Okay. There's been a number of changes, which can be seen below. The document itself is, as usual, here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WD3WjfCeeBmW3jK7aOU0fcQ6Y6ni68E3ldN8wyN6bFc/edit?usp=sharing).

General:
The voyager can no longer swap her initiative with her parallel initiative once rolled. However, the initial penalty to her parallel initiative is reduced, and her parallel initiative's penalty becomes a bonus at later levels. Metronome has received a corresponding, tamer change.

The feats Momentous Maneuvers and Maneuver Augmentation have been removed. The reason why will be obvious as we continue onwards.

How afterimages move has been changed again. Shh.

At 5th level, Momentous Maneuvers has been added as a class feature. It was already a feat that only voyagers could take, and enabled a playstyle that I doubt would overly dominate if it was made baseline (but of course, tell me if it does). Additional options open for mostly melee voyagers, which I think is a good step.

Temporal Duelist cannot be gamed with range anymore.

Manifestation of Speed:
Lightning Focus has been replaced with Maneuver Augmentation, allowing the voyager to use combat maneuvers with augmented attacks.

Shove has been replaced with Speeding Strike, bringing back an option for area of effect damage.

• 2nd Level: Manifestation of Speed: Power Channel: What does it mean to "simultaneously" manifest the power? How does the timing here work, exactly? The example that came up during actual gameplay was manifesting touchsight simultaneously as an attack against an invisible opponent; would the attack be made with total concealment?
I believe the re-jiggering of manifestation of speed a few days ago should address this as well. The voyager can choose to apply her buffs before or after her attack.

Parallel Actions
1st Level:
Combo Strike has been replaced with Phantom Feint, a tool that can bait out attacks of opportunity or feint with better action economy (Dual Threat may get a rework later).

3rd Level:
Pause has been reworked (again, I know). This version is rather closer to my original intent with it.

7th Level:
Stretched Time has been replaced with Lightning Focus, which should help with regaining psionic focus. Rather than overshadowing Psionic Meditation entirely as a tool for regaining focus, it hopefully can both be used as a replacement while also rewarding investment into the feat.

Crossfire
Firing Squad is now the replacement of Speeding Strike, and has been somewhat reworked. Their multitask now progresses at the same rate as the voyager.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-04, 05:37 PM

I appreciate the changes you have applied to the voyager; they are good steps forward and for the better. You have not addressed all of my concerns, but then, I did not expect you to in so short a time frame.

1. Afterimages are now in a good position. Some wording to clarify that enemies can/cannot (which is it?) pass through afterimages would be appreciated, however.

2. Phantom feint's feint attempt really needs to be replaced with a Reflex or Will saving throw of some kind; voyagers are not Charisma-based, and it is a little mean to tax voyagers who want to use phantom feint into selecting Cunning Liar or Clever Wordplay (Bluff) as a trait.

3. Manifestation of speed makes mention of "applying each applicable effect in the order specified by the ability," but power channel still talks of manifesting a power "simultaneously," which is still unclear on timing.

4. The new pause needs a clarification on whether or not it is subject to size limits. From the looks of it, pause seems to ignore size limits, but this could use an explicit spelling-out.

5. Momentous maneuvers, free as it is, is still rather awful. It provokes an attack of opportunity (it should not!), and a character by this level probably has Amplified Momentum, so spending momentum for +1 to a combat maneuver check is a poor deal compared to +1d6+1 damage on an attack. Momentous maneuvers should also allow a voyager to use their Dexterity or Intelligence modifier for the combat maneuver check. Voyagers being taxed into taking Agile Maneuvers just to make use of momentous maneuvers is a little disheartening.

6. The new lightning focus is a great addition to a voyager's arsenal at 7th level. That said, power echo and special delivery are still looking mediocre; perhaps they could use upgrades?

7. The metronome has no reason not to receive upgrades at 11th, 15th, and 19th, because the regular voyager outpaces it by 11th level. Perhaps the metronome should gain a +1 initiative bonus at those levels? Possibly even +2?

8. The new metronome is unclear on how the timing of its parallel turn actually works. This should be cleaned up, because otherwise, there is the potential for gruesome invincibility exploits by using pause on oneself.

9. Power echo plus bestow power and a torc of power preservation might just be infinite power points between two voyagers. This should be patched up.

10. Can afterimages pass through tiny cracks? They cannot pass through walls, but what of an arrow slit? This should be clarified too.

11. Speeding strike may be too strong and spammable in conjunction with lightning focus. Perhaps it should have a target limit of two or three creatures? Applying a full-powered attack to many targets is still quite strong.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-05, 03:11 AM

Earlier, I had played in a Pathfinder port of the D&D 3.5 version of White Plume Mountain. We were three 6th-level characters: a poorly-optimized human unchained barbarian (primal disciple for half-initiation) with two warhammers, a middlingly-optimized soulknife 3/aegis 3 with initiator's soul, and me, a hummingbird tengu voyager (metronome) with an elven curve blade.

The barbarian was missing for the first three battles of the session, but then joined us later for the next four battles.

Despite the tight dungeon spaces at times, my voyager fared perfectly fine in terms of their ability to build up momentum, close in on targets, and bounce away with Narcissism (The Skirmisher) and blink/dash. They would have been completely screwed without Narcissism (The Skirmisher) though, so something to simulate its functionality would surely help non-reach melee voyagers a great deal.

My character used foreshadow, rewind, and pause roughly equally, which is a good sign that the three parallel actions are balanced against each other. Pause was a very interesting and satisfying parallel action to consider and actually use. I activated pause whenever there was no pressing need for extra mobility, and yet I still had to think carefully on which target to pause. I often weighed between pausing a key enemy that would use devastating actions, and pausing a less important enemy so that the party could outright kill the key enemy. I worry that it is hard for ranged voyagers to use though, since it requires adjacency from either you or your parallel image.

My character was so elusive and high-AC (Expanded Knowledge for force screen sure cranked up AC) that they were seldom targeted. Even when they were, almost all attacks against them missed. Throughout seven battles, they took zero hits and zero damage.

My character still dealt about ~20% of the raw damage of the middlingly-optimized soulknife 3/aegis 3, but there is only so much one can ask for against an initiating aegis. Path of War turns nearly everything into a terrifying combatant. My character's damage output was acceptable enough.

As far as rules quibbles are concerned, I encountered nothing that I had not already posted about earlier, in my list of grievances and nitpicks.

Deimosaur

2017-12-06, 01:35 AM

Mini-update, focusing on clarification and rebalancing weak options.

General:
Added this text to momentum:
Effects that move or teleport the voyager unwillingly, such as a bull rush or a hostile teleport effect do not cause the voyager to generate momentum.
Afterimage got more clarification. Again.

Astral Voyager has received clarifying wording and gains upgrades at levels 10 and 15.

Speeding Strike tuned down in the absolute best-case scenario of striking a massive amount of targets with a single speeding strike.

Parallel Actions:
Helping Hand has an alternate use, letting all voyagers preserve their accumulated momentum.

Special Delivery now penalizes saves in general, allowing the voyager to support her allies with it.

Emergency Stasis is now usable on others and has had some edge cases clarified.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-06, 02:05 AM

1. Emergency stasis is still awful and situational compared to the immensely useful, 5e-style advantage of reversal of fortune. Emergency stasis cannot stack up to the competition, which is useful both in and out of combat.

2. The new astral voyager should remind the reader that a psi-like ability is automatically augmented up to the user's manifester level. The only spot in the rules wherein this is stipulated is the psionic bestiary.

3. Power echo is still looking too situational in comparison... except for energy ray builds, perhaps.

4. On foreshadow: "For 1 round, the voyager can move through these squares at full speed, even if they are occupied or would cost her additional movement her normally." Look at that typographical error. Also, does this mean that squeezing would cost nothing?

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-07, 12:47 PM

The great voyager playtest continues. (The part wherein I played a 6th-level voyager through a Pathfinder conversion of White Plume Mountain and had made good use of foreshadow, rewind, and pause in seven combat encounters did not, in fact, belong to the great voyager playtest.) We played for a good 7.5 hours, with a battle taking up two of those hours. The two 8th-level voyagers have been adventuring in a mindscape all this time, but now, they have entered the Astral Plane using their astral voyager class feature. The voyager is noteworthy for being the one class in all of Paizo and Dreamscarred Press that receives the earliest access to genuine planar travel, making planar adventures quite feasible as early as 5th level.

As a side note, my take on the Astral Plane draws heavily from another Dreamscarred Press archetype, the medium (empath). The zeitgeists like Little Dip o' the Dops and Iron Eye may be unable to exert direct influence on most planes, but in the Astral Plane, they act as god-like power players can manifest many an aspect. Mythical spirits like the Archmage and the Hierophant operate much the same way in the Astral Plane, and another Dreamscarred Press creation, the Overmind, joins them in the silvery void. Since the PCs interacted with aspects of the Overmind this session, I suppose it goes to show that Dreamscarred Press has successfully created an internally cohesive "shared mythology" for its products' lore.

Unfortunately, this session's battle playtest data was for nothing. The combat lasted for 8 rounds, and during rounds #5 through #8, we exploited the pause parallel action on a voyager (metronome). Unbeknownst to us, Deimosaur had applied a stealth update to the voyager (metronome) archetype addressing that exact exploit, probably after I urged Deimosaur to do so in this very forum. Still, the first four rounds had legitimate data. For example, we discovered that pause really is a fair, balanced, and useful parallel action that encourages plenty of tactical considerations and thinking ahead. We likewise found out that was ambiguous as to whether or not a character could split up a single blink or dash to break up the movement before and after an attack.

Battle of the Session:
• Buffs on the Party: Free astral caravan psi-like ability with full augmentation for flight and 25% miss chance in the Astral Plane, 7-point inertial armor, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, 7-point defensive precognition, 5-point touchsight, and, in the case of the melee voyager, 7-point offensive precognition.

• Enemies: Three supposedly CR 7 ksarite drakes from Dreamscarred Press's very own Psionic Bestiary. Ksarite drakes are extremely hardcore for CR 7s, having fly 120 feet, AC 28, at-will breath of the black dragon for 12d6 damage (Reflex DC 23 half), and at-will concussive onslaught for a repeating 6d6 force damage (Fortitude DC 23 half). Dreamscarred Press is even worse at assigning reasonable CRs to its monsters than Paizo ever was. These specific ksarite drakes were even more hardcore than usual, having very high Intelligence and Alertness as a bonus feat.

• Terrain and Starting Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369375527829504010/388379594090217484/Battle_Ksarite.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: The area was 155 feet by 125 feet, with a ceiling height of 30 feet. There were numerous 10 feet by 10 feet pillars interspersed through the area.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: The entire area was filled with a fog much like a fog cloud spell. The ksarite drakes had blindsight 120 feet, and the PCs had touchsight.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: The battle was set in the Astral Plane, so the voyagers could make use of their free astral caravan psi-like ability with full augmentation for flight and 25% miss chance in the Astral Plane. Also due to this battle being set in the Astral Plane, everybody's powers and psi-like abilities were automatically Quickened... which favored the ksarite drakes far more than the voyagers.

• Intended Difficulty: Extremely hard.

• Initiative Results: The voyagers first, then the ksarite drakes.

• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The voyager (crossfire).

• Parallel Actions: Pause for every single parallel action, except for a single accomplished accomplice to help with accuracy. Unfortunately, from round #5 onwards, we neglected to take into account Deimosaur's stealth update to the metronome archetype, so we were exploiting pause to action-deny enemies.

• Power Points Expended: None, because destiny dissonance was of little use given the dragons' power resistance, and the drakes did not rely on attack rolls anyway. The dragons only ever made attack rolls for (trip) attacks of opportunity, which temporal duelist and a 25% miss chance turned aside, so sidestep saw no use.

• Cyclops Helms Expended: The melee voyager's had been expended.

• Battle Duration: 8 rounds.

• Murky Rule: Can a voyager split up a single blink or dash to break up the movement before and after an attack?

• Notes on Actual Play: By all rights, the voyagers should have lost this battle. The ksarite drakes were far smarter than the average ksarite drake and thus knew to spam concussive onslaught using both their standard action and their swift action, targeting the voyagers' weak Fortitude. The voyagers lucked out of this one by winning initiative and using pause to action-deny the ksarite drakes while focusing on one non-paused drake at a time. It was a good divide-and-conquer strategy, and thanks to the party's exceptional luck with Fortitude saving throws, the two voyagers were able to withstand the concussive onslaughts of one ksarite drake at a time, even as it gradually covered the area in fields of repeating force damage.

• Alas, by round #5 onwards, we gained the "clever" idea of using pause and the voyager (metronome) archetype to action-deny the ksarite drakes while still getting to attack them. (We did not bother with the even more broken exploit of using pause on oneself.) We failed to notice Deimosaur's stealth update to the metronome that patched up this exploit. Thus did the voyagers deviously action-deny the ksarite drakes to assure victory. In the end, despite some unfortunate luck, the voyagers won the battle with the voyager (crossfire) taken out and the melee voyager left at exactly 1 HP. This does mean that without the already-patched exploit, the voyagers would have terribly lost.

To conclude, judging from the results of rounds #1 through #4, pause is an extremely useful parallel action even when used legitimately. It is so useful, in fact, that under the right circumstances, a voyager can efficiently divide and conquer an enemy group. It was spammed and spammed during that battle, but that is perhaps due to the unique circumstance of a party consisting solely of two voyagers, and an enemy group ripe for being divided. Under my seven-battle White Plume Mountain run, I used pause only sparingly, so as to give the party opportunities to actually take out opponents.

The metronome stealth update is an important one that should never be reverted, because otherwise, degeneracy and hardcore action denial ensue, and a voyager can become nigh-invincible by using pause on themselves.

ThirdProgenitor

2017-12-07, 03:20 PM

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-07, 07:29 PM

Deimosaur

2017-12-08, 08:27 PM

At a first glance the class looks amazingly fun and i would love to try it. However, it seems completely overloaded and powerful. At level 1 you can get either a +1 to ac or +2d6 and +2 to hit. thats really strong. not to mention parallel action and initiative.
I'm a little curious as to how you're getting +2d6 at 1st level. Momentum is capped to class level and spending momentum gives 1d6 damage per point. Could you clarify here?

And every level almost seems to give it an increase of at least 2 abilities. I would love to play it, but with how front loaded it is, and how op it looks overall, and how overloaded the class seems, i know for a fact my dm would NEVER allow this as is.
I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about the design philosophy (and numbers) behind the voyager. I know you said looks op, but I feel like I can at least clarify why things are the way they are and why I think it isn't overpowered at the moment.

I like to think that the focus of the voyager's followup class features are on versatility and utility rather than increasing damage. I admit that it might look a little front-loaded, but overall voyager gameplay is intended to be centered around the interactions between momentum, manifestation of speed, and parallel actions. I think that these abilities need to be available early so that players can get into the meat of the class quickly. I dislike classes that need to wait a long time to get defining core features. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced right now, but I'm just stating my reasoning:

Momentum is the voyager's damage and defenses. The damage portion potentially scales faster than abilities like sneak attack, but I think the caveat of potentially is very important here. Sometimes the voyager will have to choose between offense and defense. Also, unlike most damage boosters (such as sneak attack), you can't apply the full value of it to every iterative of a full attack. Comparing them directly would be a false equivalence.

In certain situations, the voyager won't be able to gain the maximum amount of momentum and apply it to an attack. Like I've said before, I think a psychic warrior or other full BAB class should be able to outpunch and outlast a voyager directly (higher BAB, higher HP, etc).

Parallel actions are rather difficult to quantify as far as value goes. Accomplished accomplice can be a +2 to attack rolls on a successful check but early on it's rather shaky (but it gets better with level). Nothing else really directly boosts damage or accuracy. A few parallel actions help generate or retain momentum, which can help them get full value out of momentum.

Manifestation of speed is somewhat necessary to enable a move-and-hit playstyle, especially once they start competing with full attackers. But it's not really a damage boost. Compare it to the magus's spellstrike, if you like: The voyager can move a lot more (move action + blink/dash opposed to full attack), but doesn't get any more damage. In fact, she can potentially deal less, as any damage she deals with a power is an opportunity cost. She could have spent those power points on momentum damage dice.

Don't take a direct spellstrike / manifestation of speed comparison too seriously, though. It's . . . weird, thanks to the differences in spellcasting and manifesting.

Following voyager abilities past this point are mostly fluff or utility oriented, or support these three core features.

If you can, I'd like it if you could pinpoint what exactly looks overpowered here. Is it partially the big class table? For clarity's sake I added progression levels of certain abilities (such as Accelerate), which may be inflating how it looks.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-11, 12:52 PM

The great voyager playtest continues. We played for two exceedingly long sessions a few days ago.

As usual, most of the two sessions were an exercise in the voyager's ability to skill monkey around with its 6 base skill points, Intelligence key ability score, information exchange, and accomplished accomplice. It helped that both characters had the Student of Philosophy trait for Intelligence-based social skills. Among the party's accomplishments in those two sessions are bamboozling a pair of succubi (conceal thoughts was of great help here), pulling an elaborate prank on a CR 15 advanced acrididaemon (rewind was of great use for this), and disarming a Disable Device DC 37 magical trap (trap foresight was key). The party is now in the midst of entreating a yandere CR 16 advanced memitim psychopomp against crashing the wedding of her shinigami psionicist ex-lover.

I have previously spoken of the voyager's overall power level. In terms of power and flexibility, the voyager is comparable to some of Paizo's stronger half-casters, like unarchetyped hunters, archer unarchetyped inquisitors, archer inquisitors (sacred huntmaster), or occultists (haunt collector) with the Trappings of the Warrior. It has nowhere near the broad utility and power of an inquisitor (monster tactician) or a summoner, nor can it stack up to third-party flexible powerhouses like an aether blade avowed, an aether barrage avowed, or a kineticist (gambler). It certainly cannot match up to the combat strength of even a middlingly-optimized Path of War initiator (something I have personally seen in five actual battles).

However, said power level comes with a huge caveat: the voyager is one of the most complex classes to play during actual combat. I dare say it has more difficult mid-battle decisions to make than most full initiators. Precise positioning is life or death for a voyager. The class has myriad options on what to do with its momentum, Amplified Momentum, manifestation of speed, and parallel actions. This is not a class for casual players by any means, and I say that with no exaggeration. If someone plays a voyager without thinking too deeply on their tactics, the character will be mediocre and quite possibly die. It is certainly a far cry, from, say, a "boost and full attack all day" psychic armory/war soul.

The above was demonstrated by the one combat we had played out. For whatever reason, perhaps due to both players being fatigued and/or suffering from an "off-day," they had forgotten about many of the tricks available to them as a voyager and bungled up their turns. Their tactics were passable by "boost and full attack all day" psychic armory/war soul standards, yet astoundingly suboptimal by voyager standards. Thus, what was supposed to be an easy encounter instead resulted in total defeat for the party.

In the playtest mini-campaign immediately preceding this one, the three rajah, one voyager party suffered a total defeat at one point. I proceeded on with the campaign (all-female polygamous forced marriages, fluffy-tailed devils, and shrine maidens were involved), because while the party did lose due to tactical errors, the players did not show signs of fatigue and/or suffering from an "off-day."

In this recent battle, I instead opted for a restart, because the players did exhibit such signs. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, the players were unavailable for the reboot. Luckily, said players were fine with me playing out the battle by myself, and reading rudimentary logs afterwards. Despite me playing the enemies with optimal tactics, the two voyagers won the second time around. At the very least, we encountered no murky rules this time around, which is a good sign for the voyager.

Battle of the Session:
• Buffs on the Party: 7-point inertial armor, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons. Nothing else.
• Regular Enemy: One supposedly CR 9 pakalchi sahkil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sahkil/sahkil-pakalchi). It was already under the effects of fly and protection from good.
• Special Enemy: One supposedly CR 10 whispers from beyond haunt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/haunts). This one was upgraded to CR 13 by giving it fast (+1 CR) and increased area (+1 CR) and by increasing its Perception DC to 29 (+1 CR). These subsequently raised its HP to 58 and its Knowledge DC to 28. I am completely skeptical that fast and the Perception DC increase each worth +1 CR, so it was probably over-CRed due to those two upgrades.
• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369375527829504010/389717828049043456/Battle_Pakalchi.png)
• Terrain Gimmick #1: The area was a 260-foot-wide, 7-foot-ceiling corridor that had sealed up behind them.
• Terrain Gimmick #2: Exactly 164 NPCs were accompanying them during this battle. They could take no meaningful actions of their own. They provided cover, occupied spaces, allowed the PCs to cross their spaces, and took shelter in the lower left and lower right corners of the battlefield.
• Terrain Gimmick #3: The battle was set in the Astral Plane, but the voyagers' astral caravan formation was broken. They could still manifest their powers under Quicken Power. Likewise, the sahkil and the wihsaak it subsequently summoned could use their spell-like abilities under Quicken Spell.
• Intended Difficulty: Easy.
• Initiative Results: There was a surprise round, and the melee voyager failed her Perception check. The initiative order was the ranged voyager (crossfire), the haunt, the pakalchi (and later, its summoned wihsaak), and then the melee voyager. I preserved this state of affairs for the second attempt.
• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The melee voyager. I also preserved this for the second attempt.
• An Interesting Battle Opening: At the start of their respective first turns, each of the PCs failed their Will saving throws against the pakalchi's gaze, panicking them for 1 round and shaking them for 4 rounds. However, during the pakalchi's surprise round, it attempted to use a Quickened dominate person on the melee voyager, who resisted. In addition to all of this, the PCs soon succeeded on their Knowledge (planes) checks to identify both the pakalchi and the whispers from beyond to such a large degree that I gave them the statistics for both outright; thank you, information exchange. I likewise preserved all of this for the second attempt.

Attempt #1, wherein the PCs lose:
• Cyclops Helms Expended: The ranged voyager's had been expended.
• The Losing Strategy: Despite having directly observed the pakalchi use the Astral Plane to Quicken its spell-like abilities, the PCs did not think to do the same for their powers. They opted against buffing, and instead decided to take down the pakalchi immediately, which had proven rather difficult due to its Quickened blink and its damage reduction 10/good. The PCs employed subpar positioning due to misunderstandings on how gaze attacks worked, and the players should have been familiar with the gaze rules ever since their previous sahkil encounter earlier in the playtest mini-campaign.
• The PCs never used pause since they were trying to kill the pakalchi. They instead spammed rewind turn after turn to get into (poor) positions against the pakalchi, and to attempt to escape the 40-foot run action of the haunt. They failed to elude the haunt for the most part, so during the time they spent trying to fell the pakalchi, they were taking Wisdom damage all the while. Eventually, the pakalchi used calm emotions on the heavily Wisdom-damaged, poisoned melee voyager, screwing over the party's action economy. Even after the ranged voyager defeated the pakalchi, the two PCs were too Wisdom-debuffed to stand a chance against destroying the haunt, so they ultimately fell to Wisdom damage and drain.
• During this process, the the pakalchi kept on trying to hit the melee voyager with its ranged attacks, yet bloated AC drove off most attacks. One attack pushed through, however. Said melee voyager neglected to use deflect, which led to heavy Wisdom damage throughout the battle from the pakalchi's poison.

Attempt #2, wherein the PCs win:
• Cyclops Helms Expended: None.
• Power Points Expended: Nearly all of them on various buffs, deflects, and hustles.
• The Winning Strategy: Both PCs started off by buffing up with the help of the Astral Plane's Quicken, and by using their parallel actions to pause the pakalchi. Afterwards, the ranged voyager (crossfire) spammed pause to keep the pakalchi out of the battle, then focused on using full-round actions to damage the haunt; she took plenty of Wisdom damage/drain, and she was eventually knocked out. The melee voyager used hustle and rewind in order to enter the haunt, use a full-round action to damage it, and then escape the haunt outside of its 40-foot run distance. Once the ranged voyager (crossfire) was knocked out and the pakalchi had a wihsaak out, the melee voyager used pause to keep the wihsaak out of the fight and then take out the pakalchi.
• During this process, the pakalchi kept on trying to hit the melee voyager with its ranged attacks, yet bloated AC and deflect prevented them from ever landing.
• Due to some unluckily high rolls from my side as a GM, the party ended the battle with 13 Wisdom drain (out of 14 Wisdom) on the melee voyager, and 13 Wisdom drain (also out of 14 Wisdom) and 3 Wisdom damage on the ranged voyager. Some NPCs in their caravan had to de-lobotomize them afterwards.

The lesson here is that the voyager is a very high-complexity class in actual combat. One should study it very carefully and be sharp of mind while playing the class, lest one stumble and die.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-12, 01:14 AM

I had just completed a combat-heavy run of the D&D 3.5 version of White Plume Mountain, converted to Pathfinder for optimized 6th-level characters. We were three characters: a poorly-optimized human unchained barbarian (primal disciple for half-initiation) with two warhammers, a middlingly-optimized soulknife 3/aegis 3 with initiator's soul, and me, a hummingbird tengu voyager (metronome) with an elven curve blade.

The dungeon's tight spaces did not constrain me at all, and momentum was almost never an issue. I was almost always able to build up momentum, close in on targets, and bounce away with Narcissism (The Skirmisher) and blink/dash. It would have been troublesome with Narcissism (The Skirmisher), so again, it would be nice to see its functionality directly implemented into manifestation of speed so as to help non-reach melee voyagers.

The pause parallel action was absolutely, positively my character's mainstay. It mutilated the enemy's action economy to a huge degree. During every one of my turns, I was always on the lookout for a good opportunity to use pause, and I only ever settled for foreshadow or rewind when absolutely necessary. Despite this spam, pause was a very interesting and satisfying parallel action to consider and actually use. I still had to think carefully on which target to pause. I often weighed between pausing a key enemy that would use devastating actions, and pausing a less important enemy so that the party could outright said the key enemy. I worry that it is hard for ranged voyagers to use though, since it requires adjacency from either you or your parallel image.

Thanks to inertial armor and Expanded Knolwedge (force screen), my character's AC was so high that even after they became the target for focused fire at several points, they were hit not a single time throughout the whole adventure.

What can we learn from this? Pause is a voyagers's mainstay for parallel actions; others get brought in only during the occasions wherein pause cannot solve all problems.

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-12, 08:19 AM

A public service announcement for voyagers.

As has been pointed out by someone else, this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-the-weasel) is an amazing item for voyagers, who are otherwise heavily stymied by being knocked prone:

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 4th
Slot belt; Price 10,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION

This surprisingly soft belt has an absurdly large buckle, made even more absurd by the fact that it’s crafted in the shape of a smiling weasel’s face.

It grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, and the ability to move at half normal speed while prone. Treat the enhancement bonus to Dexterity as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn. The wearer does not take a penalty on melee attack rolls or to AC against melee attacks while prone. Additionally, the wearer gains the compression ability.

TiaC

2017-12-13, 03:15 AM

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-15, 07:56 AM

Cord of Unearthly Grace is better from 11th level onwards.

Swift actions are important for voyagers by 10th level due to their borrowed time class feature, which allows them to use a swift action to use a parallel action.

Mezzaluna

2017-12-26, 12:47 PM

I've got a small list of odds and ends suggestions that I think would be cool to see in the Voyager, so I'm going to throw them here and see what sticks.

The first two are from the 'speedster' thematic point of view:

1) While you can move really fast and skirmish well, there's a big aspect of speedster fluff that I think's missing: the ability to interact with things really fast, or zoom in, handle an item, and zoom away again. A voyager's speed with always be hindered by action economy and the fact that they can't break their move action apart besides using manifestation of speed.

Off the top of my head, something like this would be cool to see:
"Helping Hand: By spending 2 momentum, the Voyager may use Helping Hand as a free action while moving, as many times as she wishes per turn. Using helping hand this way limits her manipulations to move action equivalents from her own space (not her afterimage's) and does not preserve her momentum on her next turn."
I don't think this feels too strong, but even a lesser version of it would just feel nice to have, like rolling it into an existing feat (Faster and Faster?), making it need expending focus, or maybe just using it once as a swift action.

2) Calculating voyager speed pointed me towards the rules on running (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Run), and the 'you can only use the Run action for a number of rounds equal to your CON modifier in a row' rule. Maybe a way to let Voyagers use their INT in place on their CON for that would be a nice ribbon?

3) Afterimages and stealth: At the moment there's no way at all to hide an afterimage from being noticed, which gets in the way of a lot of stealth voyager strategies. I think it would be cool if that functionality was available somehow (Not sure if it would be worth a feat on its own, but maybe an item? Part of another feat?)

EarthSeraphEdna

2017-12-27, 12:16 PM

The great voyager playtest continues. All throughout the past two weeks, we have been playing a great many sessions relatively light on the combat, though we still managed to run four battles. The two 8th-level voyagers reached 9th-level after the first. As usual, most of the sessions were a showcase in the voyager's skill monkeying across the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow. 6 base skill points, Intelligence as a key ability score, information exchange, and accomplished accomplice all add up to a remarkable proficiency with skill checks. They also got to use sensitivity to psychic impressions to solve a major plot point, and later, the selfsame power to crack open an ancient mystery, so thank you, Deimosaur, for including that in the voyager power list.

During this past fortnight, we brought towards Deimosaur a few minor rules quibbles with Deimosaur, like the precise timing of power channel, and minor wording ambiguities with temporal duelist at 8th level. One quibble still stands: during a critical moment in combat, one player argued that the "spending power points normally" provision in multitask at 9th level and greater multitask at 17th level circumvented the momentum/power point expenditure cap of augmented attack, because of the usage of "normally." This would effectively grant a voyager a free standard action with which to manifest mid-combat. I considered it a sketchy reading, but I conceded that it was valid nevertheless, so I had allowed it. Is this intentional?

A quibble I noticed myself is the helping hand parallel action, right from 1st level. It bars off attacks and magical items, but what of psionic items and alchemical items? Can a helping hand activate a smokestick, for example? What of a dorje? Speaking of helping hand, one player was complaining about how helping hand still suffered from any temporary penalties the voyager was suffering from, such as Strength damage; I do not think their complaint holds much water, but it is worth pointing out.

Another thing I had observed is that both players, seasoned veterans to the class, were still ofttimes confused as to how afterimages worked. At the very least, they were tripped up by things other than afterimage movement:
• They frequently assumed that their afterimages could talk, for whatever reason. The afterimage rules should explicitly deny this.
• They constantly forgot that parallel actions could use afterimages as an origin point. This is something I had mentioned to Deimosaur long ago, but it bears repeating: the rules should blatantly spell out "adjacent to you or your afterimage" in each applicable parallel action, because even long-time players regularly neglect it.
• They were often confused by how the rules for concealing afterimages or using them in conjunction with Stealth worked... probably because the afterimage rules fail to lay out such a thing. This actually came up multiple times, forcing me to gloss over it as "Yes, your afterimage can effectively use Stealth." This could use clarification.

It was also during these sessions that I discovered just how beautiful a feat Independent Action is. It does not need a downgrade, but I would recommend that any mid-level voyager take this top-notch feat. Independent Action allows a character to break free from just about any sort of mind-affecting effect given enough turns, which means rejoining a battle after having been taken out by a mind-affecting save-or-lose, or being able to shrug off any charm, suggestion, or dominate outside of combat. It even allows for silly business like teleporting around with afterimages and rewind even while petrified. I have a quibble with it: on a successful retried save against a magical effect, is the voyager notified via hostile tingle? This is important in the case of subtle charms, suggestions, and the like.

On to the battle reports. It should be noted that at some point, the PCs traded in their cyclops helms, their +2 Dexterity items, and some gold for belts of the weasel. I would strongly recommend this item to any non-flying voyager. Being tripped is terribly inconvenient for any voyager, and this makes being knocked prone sting much less.

Battle #1 of the Latest Batch of Sessions:
• Party: Melee voyager (metronome) and ranged voyager (crossfire, metronome), both 8th-level

• Buffs on the Party: 7-point inertial armor, 7-point defensive precognition, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, 3-point concealing amorpha, 1-point force screen, and, in the case of the melee voyager, 7-point offensive precognition

• Enemy: One supposedly CR 15 nemhain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/nemhain)

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/326756284831367169/393676651180982272/Battle_Nemhain.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: This was the Ethereal Plane, so everyone could fly. Since the Ethereal Plane's rules are fuzzy, I ruled that only vertical movement incurred the doubled movement cost.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: The nemhain ignored all sources of cover and all negative terrain effects in this battlefield, since this was her demesne.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: The golden webs forced a DC 30 Reflex save upon anyone traveling through, above, or below them. Failure caused entanglement and immobilization in the webs. They also provided cover.

• Terrain Gimmick #4: The shards forced a DC 30 Reflex save upon anyone traveling through, above, or below them. Failure caused the staggered condition until the end of the creature's next turn. They likewise provided cover.

• Terrain Gimmick #5: The nemhain had an unlimited supply of 6d6 damage Colossal obsidian chakrams for use with its telekinesis.

• Terrain Gimmick #6: To counteract the nemhain's major terrain benefits, the party and their allies conducted an occult ritual to prevent the nemhain from incorporeally occupying any of the asteroids. A similar ritual imbued the PCs' weapons with 1 electricity damage.

• Intended Difficulty: Easy.

• Initiative Results: The melee voyager, then the nemhain, then the ranged voyager.

• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The voyagers were successfully able to kite around in such a way as to render focused fire unfeasible.

• Power Points Expended: The melee voyager spent 3 power points on hustle to reach the nemhain during the first round, 1 power point for destiny dissonance as part of a power channel also during the first round, and 3 power points on a deflect against a lucky Colossal obsidian chakram

• Notes on the Actual Combat: The nemhain started the battle already with an antilife shell up, but I ruled that teleportation could take a character into an antilife shell. That is how the melee voyager used hustle, destiny dissonance, and blink to pound the nemhain with eight rounds of automatically being sickened; their very high Reflex blew right through the dangerous terrain. Since they had identified the nemhain's statistics from prior research and high Knowledge skills, from there, they figured out that all they had to do was kite away from the nemhain's measly speed 30 feet and play defensively to exhaust the nemhain's spell-like abilities. Once that happened, then they could chip away at the nemhain as though it was a fish in a barrel.

• Between the voyagers' completely bloated AC, total defense actions, temporal duelist, concealing amorpha, and destiny dissonance, the nemhain could hit with ranged attacks for telekinesis only on a natural 20, and could likewise land the ranged touch attacks for its special versions of harm and slay living only on a natural 18+. Even then, temporal duelist would force rerolls, and the likes of harm and slay living allowed Fortitude saving throws. Naturally high speeds and boots of speed ensured that the nemhain could never actually close in on the party for a melee attack. The voyagers thus found it trivial to exhaust the nemhain's resources, thus allowing them to claim victory not by physically beating down their opponent, but by outlasting it with frustratingly elusive defenses.

• The nemhain was incredibly lucky and managed to kill one PC thanks to very unfortunate dice rolls, but we knew that to be a statistical outlier. In other, hypothetical playthroughs of this battle, both voyagers would have won unscathed the vast majority of the time. The point still stood: this was a battle that allowed the voyagers to win through sheer defense and endurance, rather than offense. (The dead PC was raised later via occult ritual.)

Reports on the second, third, and fourth battles coming soon.

Thealtruistorc

2018-01-01, 01:59 AM

I think I'm going to enjoy this class quite a bit. Just checked back on it after a long time and I have to say that some stellar work has been done.

Having just finished the new season of Stranger Things, I'm very tempted to now call this class the Zoomer. Maybe a future archetype...

More importantly, however, will this class support Seventh Path at all? I envision several athanatism powers could be useful to it.

Deimosaur

2018-01-05, 12:26 AM

Hey, all. After all the holiday stuff has happened and the new year has passed us by, Dreamscarred Press is considering a release for the voyager at the end of January. This is not a concrete commitment, just an expression of our goals.

This announcement comes with a relatively small update, not really adding or removing much, but focused on balance and clarification:
Multitask and greater multitask have slightly more clarified wording (in addition to the already-existing clarifications in other parts of the class).
Momentous Maneuvers has an additional option added, letting momentum be spent for damage on relevant combat maneuvers such as sunder and the damage option of grappling.

Pause can no longer be continuously used on a single creature to keep them out of the fight forever.

Emergency Stasis can now be used as an immediate action with the expenditure of psionic focus.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-05, 02:02 AM

Momentous maneuvers' damage option needs to be a bit stronger, because as it stands, it is worse than the option of adding +2 attack and +1d6/momentum on a regular attack.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-05, 04:34 AM

This is a continuation of the previous voyager playtest report. I have been terribly distracted and preoccupied this holiday season, so only now have I been able to get around to writing up reports of the remaining four battles. I am somewhat late to the party, since it seems that Deimosaur had already updated the voyager based on my past commentary, but the playtests were still somewhat useful, because they highlighted the sheer action-denying power of pause and the ambiguity of multitask.

Battle #2 of the Latest Batch of Sessions:
• Party: Melee voyager (metronome) and ranged voyager (crossfire, metronome), both 9th-level

• Buffs on the Party: 7-point inertial armor, 7-point defensive precognition, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, 3-point concealing amorpha, 1-point force screen, and, in the case of the melee voyager, 7-point offensive precognition

• Enemies: Four supposedly CR 7 nogitsune (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/oni/nogitsune), upgraded to CR 8 with the advanced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1) simple template. These nogitsune were even tougher than advanced nogitsune; their feints worked on ranged attacks, their blue whinnis poison was DC 16 rather than DC 14, and they ignored any concealment less than total concealment on their attacks.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/326756284831367169/395939743340429312/Battle_Nogitsune.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: The purple-shaded squares on the map were extremely dangerous. If a creature started or ended their turn in such a square (even vertically), they had to make a DC 30 Will saving throw or take 3 Strength drain, 3 Dexterity drain, 3 Constitution drain, 3 Intelligence drain, 3 Wisdom drain, and 3 Charisma drain. Each of these instances of ability drain could not decrease any of a creature's ability scores to 0. These instances of ability drain likewise could not cause a creature with 0 or more hit points to enter negative hit points; if this would have happened, the creature would have instead dropped to 0 hit points.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: A nogitsune who entered a purple-shaded square on the map gained an extra 10 feet of movement speed, which did not count against its fleet distraction (su) ability.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: There were 20 feet between the floor and the ceiling, and the nogitsune started the battle hanging from the ceiling with their climb speeds. Fortunately, given boots of speed on top of a massive land speed, the melee voyager was easily able to jump around and strike at the nogitsune on the ceiling.

• Terrain Gimmick #4: There was a girl inside an extremely sturdy cage affixed to the ceiling. Said girl was combat-incapable, but after the surprise round, she begun to sing a special song that granted the nogitsune a +7 competence bonus to Bluff checks and attack rolls. The song could be stopped for the battle by giving the girl a headpat (a combat maneuver against CMD 16), but the girl was inside a sturdy cage, so reaching her was difficult.

• Intended Difficulty: Easy.

• Initiative Results: The players were intelligent enough to suspect that these creatures had some form of Stealth-breaking special senses (scent, in this case), so they began their ambush from a long distance, thereby ensuring a surprise round wherein only the voyagers acted. In all subsequent rounds, the nogitsunes acted first, then the voyagers second.

• Battle Duration: 1 surprise round, then 5 regular rounds.

• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: Similarly to the previous battle, the voyagers were successfully able to kite around in such a way as to render focused fire unfeasible.

• Power Points Expended: Each voyager spent 3 power points on a hustle during the surprise round, then 6 power points each on various manifestations of deflect and sidestep to avoid attacks.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: Although the PCs started off the surprise round far from the enemies (so as to avoid special senses), manifestations of hustle brought them into the thick of the nogitsune to let them launch their attacks.

• After the surprise round, the voyagers quickly learned that enemies were really quite good at feinting (ranged feinting, at that), which is like kryptonite to a voyager. The feinting did not always work, but whenever it did, the voyager was in for a sharp chunk of damage from sneak attack +3d6 and DC 16 blue whinnis poison. Fortunately, feints do not actually flat-foot the victim, so the voyagers were able to throw up deflects and sidesteps throughout the battle to survive. Let this be a lesson: feint-specialized combatants can wreck a voyager.

• Once the girl in the cage begun to sing, it was easy for the ranged voyager to shut down the singing. All the PC had to do was jump up with Acrobatics, declare a combat maneuver check for a headpat upgraded by momentous maneuvers, use destiny dissonance to blink inside the cage, and then deliver the headpat. Then the PC used rewind to get out.

• After the singing ended, the PCs and the nogitsune engaged in an extremely dynamic battle that spread out across the entirety of the map, because both sides were mobility-oriented. I was quite impressed, because most party compositions would have resulted in the combat being confined to a single small section of the map. Instead, since the PCs were both voyagers, they were constantly bouncing around the map to build up momentum, take cover from the enemies, and split up their attacks so as to avoid being focus-fired.

• The PCs spammed a routine of moving around to build up momentum, launching an augmented attack, rebuilding momentum from The Skirmisher and dash, and then using pause. The voyagers were able to deny the nogitsune many turns using pause. If we had played this battle after Deimosaur had downgraded pause, then there would have been more variety in this combat.

• The nogitsune put up a decent fight with their ranged feints (allowing them to actually hit the voyagers), but ultimately, the action denial from pause and the high damage from Amplified Momentum pulled through. The voyagers were able to knock all of the nogitsune into the far negatives, rendering their regeneration moot.

• As an additional note, the nogitsune did make use of their spell-like abilities, such as a haste to start off combat. Displacement, unfortunately, was not of much use when the voyagers could manifest touchsight, and the nogitsune had foreknowledge on such a capacity of the PCs and thus simply did not bother.

Battle #3 of the Latest Batch of Sessions:
• Party: Melee voyager (metronome) and ranged voyager (crossfire, metronome), both 9th-level

• Buffs on the Party: 7-point inertial armor, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, nothing else.

• Enemy: One supposedly CR 16 qolok sahkil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/sahkil/sahkil-qolok), downgraded to CR 15 with the quick rules version of the degenerate (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#degenerate-creature) template.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/398782437154488320/Battle_Qolok.png):
The melee voyager and the ranged voyager were in the center, sharing their afterimages' space. Although the picture might make it look as if the degenerate qolok is underneath several people, in truth, the degenerate qolok was actually floating above them. Everyone else was random civilian bystanders of the Plane of Shadow caught up in a wacky battle.

• Terrain Gimmick #1: At the start of the battle, everyone but the qolok had to make a DC 24 Reflex save or fall prone. They also had to make a DC 24 Will saving throw or suffer from a symbol of debauchery for 20 rounds, and another DC 24 Will saving throw or suffer the qolok's gaze attack. The melee voyager passed the Reflex save and the Will save against the gaze attack, but succumbed to the symbol of debauchery. In a stroke of ill luck, the ranged voyager failed all of the saving throws. The civilian bystanders were treated as having failed their saving throws.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: Since the civilian bystanders were prone and indulging in debauchery, their spaces could be moved into, but such movement costed double regardless of whether or not someone used Acrobatics to hop around.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: This was an enclosed space, and there were 20 feet between the floor and the ceiling. The degenerate qolok and its 10-foot-space were occupying the upper half of the area in altitude. Fortunately, the melee voyager had enough Acrobatics from a ridiculously high movement speed to jump up and attack the qolok each time.

• Terrain Gimmick #4: The degenerate qolok was denied any extradimensional movement, although it could still attempt to summon pakalchis.

• Intended Difficulty: Hard.

• Initiative Results: The degenerate qolok sahkil, then the voyagers.

• Battle Duration: 17 rounds.

• PC Who Got Focus-Fired: The melee voyager, as she had broken out of the symbol of debauchery using Independent Action, and was the only PC to have actually acted during this battle.

• Power Points Expended: The melee voyager spent too many power points to count, as the qolok was constantly dispelling buffs only for the melee voyager to reapply them with power channel and multitask. This battle eliminated an obnoxiously large chunk of power points from the melee voyager.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: Independent Action was absolutely, positively the most valuable feat in the voyagers' arsenal here. It allowed the melee voyager to break away from the symbol of debauchery... granted, only after six rounds, in a stroke of misfortune. The ranged voyager broke out of the symbol of debauchery only after sixteen rounds, in an even more improbable fit of bad luck. Nevertheless, Independent Action was a top-notch feat here, because it gave the voyagers the chance to actually take action after having succumbed to a save-or-lose. I would strongly recommend Independent Action to any voyager who would like to be able to break free of mind-affecting effects.

• In other words, for all intents and purposes, the battle was an 11-round duel between the melee voyager and the degenerate qolok.

• The voyagers were not the only ones who had poor dice luck. The degenerate qolok had great trouble as well. It failed to summon pakalchi sahkils at the start of combat, and often rolled natural 1s through 3s for its caster level checks (penalized by the quick rules version of the degenerate template) for greater dispel magic. Nevertheless, it managed to push some dispels through anyway.

• This was the battle wherein we had discovered an ambiguity in the wording of multitask. It is a good thing we had pointed it out to Deimosaur earlier, and an even better thing that Deimosaur actually addressed it. The melee voyager was caught without her usual pre-battle buffs, and the degenerate qolok had the annoying tendency to toss out a greater dispel magic every so often, so the melee voyager abused the pre-update wording of multitask to rapidly throw up various buffs to help her in the battle, such as touchsight to avoid the qolok's gaze.

• Each and every round, all the melee voyager did was use foreshadow as a parallel action, move around, jump up to hit the degenerate qolok, and slash at it with full momentum. They rinsed and repeated every round. The battle took a long while due to the qolok's damage reduction and fast healing.

• The degenerate qolok had trouble inflicting any offensive measures on the melee voyager. Disintegrate's ranged touch attacks missed due to temporal duelist, it could never get into a position to full attack, and even its trip attempts had trouble going through due to temporal duelist.

• Ultimately, the melee voyager's kiting and steady attacks overtook the degenerate qolok's troubled offense, and so the melee voyager single-handedly achieved a miraculous victory against such a dangerous foe. This battle was a lesson in the old, murky wording of multitask. It was also a demonstration of the value of Independent Action (even if the dice luck disagreed), and also a showcase of how a voyager can be nearly untouchable against a lone enemy due to temporal duelist.

Battle #4 of the Latest Batch of Sessions:
• Note: This is an extremely unusual battle that is more of a showcase in how a lone voyager might operate while completely outside of their element.

• Party: Melee voyager (metronome), 9th-level, all by herself

• Buffs on the Party: 7-point offensive precognition, 5-point touchsight

• Enemy: One supposedly CR 15 locust plague swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/plague-swarm/plague-swarm-locust), whose multiply (ex) ability was a special version that filled an entire cavern system with supposedly CR 8 plague locust swarms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/locust-plague-locust-swarm). While swarms are normally the bane of many weapon-wielders, both voyagers had already acquired swarmbane clasps some time ago.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/398805789919412227/Battle_Locust.png):
CR 8 plague locust swarms filled every single square of the cavern wherever the CR 15 locust plague swarm was not already occupying it.

• Terrain Gimmick #1: The entire cavern was full of nasty, slippery terrain that costed triple movement to enter and increased all Acrobatics checks DCs by +10. However, the melee voyager circumvented this by bunny-hopping with Acrobatics.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: Due to storyline reasons, it was imperative that the melee voyager had to destroy the CR 15 locust plague swarm right here and now, without it reforming. The reform (su) ability of the swarm was a little different. In order to truly destroy the swarm, the melee voyager had to perform the following steps in order: (1) wear a specific nonmagical suit of Small masterwork full plate with great historical value, (2) get the swarm to devour the armor while the melee voyager was still wearing it, (3) get the swarm to devour a specific Small +4 collision, corrosive, keen, shocking elven curve blade with great historical value, and then (4) destroy the swarm with a different weapon. Both the armor and the weapon had to be at full HP by the time the voyager confronted the swarm.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: In other words, the melee voyager had to cripple herself by wearing masterwork full plate, which denied her Speed of Thought, further reduced her speed, and applied a nonproficiency penalty across her initiative and attack rolls. Fortunately, she got to wield a Small +4 collision, corrosive, keen, shocking elven curve blade to make up for it.

• Terrain Gimmick #4: As a reward for previous efforts in a noncombat scene, the melee voyager was blessed with a temporary aura that caused her to deny the usage of mythic power on mythic feats. This evened the playing field and gave the PC a fighting chance against the swarm and its Mythic Dodge feat.

• Sneaking in Plate: The melee voyager entered at a time when the CR 8 swarms were sleeping. She was entitled to six Stealth checks (with the armor check penalty for masterwork full plate) to creep past the CR 8 swarms' Perception +1. However, she suffered an additional -20 penalty on her Stealth checks due to the threat of stepping on a locust or two. Despite the armor check penalty and her further -20 penalty, she was able to use her accomplished accomplice parallel action to improve her Stealth checks and successfully land all six of the Stealth checks.

• More Sneaking in Plate: Finally, the melee voyager was entitled to a seventh Stealth check to gain a surprise round against the CR 15 swarm's Perception +24. For this last check, rather than a -20 penalty, she had a +8 bonus for the heavily distracted (though not sleeping) swarm. Despite the burden of her masterwork full plate, she used accomplished accomplice to once again boost her Stealth check, beat the swarm's Perception, and earn a surprise round.

• Intended Difficulty: Hard.

• Initiative Results: A surprise round with only the voyager acting. After the surprise round, the CR 15 swarm acted first, then the CR 8 swarms, then the voyager, then the CR 15 swarm again due to dual initiative.

• Battle Duration: 1 surprise round, then 3 regular rounds.

• Power Points Expended: 6 power points, both on uses of hustle.

• Surprise Round: The voyager expended psionic focus and used her parallel action to mark her afterimage with her current hit point total. She then used hustle and boots of speed to build up momentum even while in plate armor, then smashed into the swarm with Amplified Momentum and the heavily-enchanted sword. The Skirmisher and dash subsequently built up further momentum.

• Regular Round #1: The CR 15 swarm entered the voyager's space. This provoked an attack of opportunity from the voyager, who spent momentum to deal heavy damage to the swarm with the help of the hyper-magical sword. The swarm dealt its automatic damage, heavily wounding the voyager but also destroying the Small armor, which liberated the PC from its heavy penalties. The PC suffered more damage from the CR 8 swarms. Then the PC used hustle and boots of speed to replenish momentum and swing at the swarm, finishing it off... or rather, placing it under an akashic Symbol of Mercy. This triggered the destruction of all the CR 8 swarms and prevented the CR 15 swarm from taking action. The voyager subsequently used rewind to replenish their HP to full.

• Regular Rounds #2 to #3: From here, it was simply a matter of using a standard action to dispense a command of "Devour this sword" to the CR 15 swarm, which it did. Naturally, the plague swarm then tried to move into the voyager's space, but the voyager's subsequent attack of opportunity with their regular sword finished off the swarm once and for all.

• Accomplished accomplice was a great boon in the leadup to this battle, because it helped the voyager cross the veritable ocean of CR 8 swarms and then earn a surprise round against the CR 15 swarm. However, we did note that the rules were unclear on whether or not the afterimage would have been spotted, which is why we are still confused by how afterimage Stealth actually works.

• Although it was not necessary in the combat, rewind's "mark your hit points" function was a healthy safety buffer against anything going wrong in the fight. In the event that the voyager had missed with any of her attacks, the plague swarm would have had another opportunity to devastate her with automatic damage, so it was important for the voyager to stay fresh and at full hit points. It was somewhat inconvenient to use, but there is no doubt that it would have been a life-saver if any of the voyager's attacks had missed and prolonged the fight.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-11, 10:59 AM

Earlier this week, I was playing a voyager in an 11th-level party. It had highlighted a few major issues with the voyager by the mid-levels. Our very first battle, you see, was against sixteen low-level enemies, and I was playing alongside a guru and a paladin (knight-disciple) with Advanced Study.

1. The voyager absolutely, positively cannot handle crowds to save its life, right until 13th level, when it receives speeding strike. In fact, it is worse than many other half-casters/half-manifesters at doing so, because the voyager is so strongly reliant on standard action attacks that the voyager has awful full attacks. An 11th- or 12th-level inquisitor or occultist would be able to full attack and take out multiple enemies with each full attack, but a voyager can hardly do anything similar. For comparison, the guru and the paladin (knight-disciple) were capable of casually hurling out AoE effects from their veils and their maneuvers, so my voyager was completely trivialized.

What the voyager needs is some sort of relatively low-impact AoE effect. I had a look at the various class features of the voyager, and out of all of them, momentous maneuvers and maneuver augmentation need to go. I have seen them used not a single time in all of my playtest battles, of which there have been between many. They are near-worthless to the voyager's playstyle, and the extra damage option for grapples and sunders is a worse deal than the extra damage and +2 attack for regular uses of momentum.

With that in mind, I would scrap momentous maneuvers and maneuver augmentation (turn them into a strong voyager feat or an alternative class feature, ala focused crossfire) in favor of something like:
Force Wave (Su): At 5th level, a voyager can channel her momentum into selective blasts of concussive force. As a standard action, a voyager can spend any amount of momentum and deal force damage to any enemies she designates in a (10? 15?)-foot cone. The length of this cone increases by 5 feet for every (2? 3?) class levels beyond 5th level. The cone deals damage equal to the damage she could normally deal with momentum (normally 1d6 per point of momentum spent in this way), with a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the voyager's class level + the voyager's Intelligence modifier) for half damage.

Bear in mind that this would not interact with augmented attack, so it is never strictly better than attacking.

2. Like it or not, as a Dreamscarred Press product, a voyager is going to wind up in a party with Path of War initiators sooner or later. This was the case in my very first voyager playtest mini-campaign, and this was also the case in this new campaign. The traditional way for mid-level characters without initiator archetypes (or the dreaded initiator customizations, whether from a genuine aegis or form astral suit) to catch up to initiators is to take Martial Training, and certainly, this works for Dreamscarred Press classes like the malefex and Deimosaur's very own highlord (sovereign) can do this. The voyager, on the other hand, cannot, because augmented attack is a standard action. Worse, at 10th level, a voyager's swift actions are eaten up by borrowed time.

I think that this can be rectified by replacing augmented attack's "Making an augmented attack is a standard action and is made like a normal attack with a weapon, but is prefaced by the expenditure of points of momentum, power points, or both" with "When a voyager makes an attack with a weapon and without Vital Strike feats as part of a standard action, she can declare it to be an augmented attack, which is prefaced by the expenditure of points of momentum, power points, or both." Paizo's kineticist already includes precedent against ruling out Vital Strike, and this would make a voyager's augmented attacks compatible with strikes from Martial Training, weapon-based maneuvers like sunders and trips, and so on.

Yes, it would make a voyager/initiator multiclass strong, but I do not think it would be any more egregious than other initiator multiclasses. If a malefex and a highlord (sovereign) can fool around with Martial Training, I do not see why a voyager should be left out.

3. There really, really needs to be an actual rule for using Stealth with an afterimage. This has come up discomfortingly often, and it is particularly important for the keep watch parallel action at 11th level, which is near-useless for scouting if afterimages cannot act stealthily.

4. Paradox shift at 11th level is a mess of a parallel action, assuming it affects only attack rolls. It mutilates the party's attack rolls against the target, while leaving the target completely free to hurl out save-or-lose spells or powers. There is also the cheesy exploit of a ranged voyager wielding a seeking weapon (already an incredibly useful magic weapon special ability), slapping a paradox shift on themselves, and ignoring the miss chance.

Paradox shift should probably be something like:
Paradox Shift: The voyager’s parallel selves reach out and disrupt the flow of time, causing the actions and actions made against her targets to become inconsistent. This parallel action affects herself and a creature adjacent to her, though the voyager and choose whether or not to exclude herself or another creature from the effects as she wishes.
Until the end of their next turn, when an affected creature attempts to take a standard action or a full-round action, or when an offensive combat action (anything that could break invisibility) is attempted against an affected creature, the voyager rolls a d20 without modifiers. On an 11+, the action never resolves and is wasted, though no resources are spent. If both conditions would trigger, then only one such d20 roll is made.

5. Independent Action is a feat that could use some clarification. Does the afterimage have access to its own set of senses? Does the afterimage know what it is looking at or hearing? Can the afterimage keep watch as the voyager is sleeping? What does "you are affected by an ongoing mind-affecting effect that allows a saving throw, you can use your parallel action to make another save against it" actually mean? Does it apply against the likes of suggestion or charm person, or does it only work against overwhelming grief and similar effects? (My GM insisted that it worked only on overwhelming grief and similar effects.) Likewise, can a voyager use borrowed future to activate the saving throw function?

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-12, 10:03 PM

I see that afterimage Stealth and Independent Action have been updated.

What if a voyager wants to have their afterimage use Stealth while the voyager remains in plain view? Is that impossible?

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-13, 01:47 PM

Another annoying quibble I had observed for my 11th-level voyager was that it is really quite irksome for the metronome to have no initiative-related benefit at 11th, 15th, and 19th level. Perhaps a metronome should gain +1 initiative at those levels?

Daridan

2018-01-17, 10:07 AM

Is momentum precision damage? Or is it multiplied on crits?

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-18, 07:30 AM

Earlier, I was playing in another session and another battle as an 11th-level voyager (crossfire, metronome). We had faced a total of ten enemies this time around. Much like before, as far as ability to deal with crowds is concerned, I did not think that the voyager was matching up to the paladin (knight-disciple) with Advanced Study or the guru, and those classes are not even especially known for their crowd control abilities.

I was still miffed by many of the same issues as before, which can be found in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22743351&postcount=202).

While #3 and #5 have since been fixed, #1, #2, and #4 still very much applied. In particular, I found myself spamming paradox shift every single round, exactly the same as the previous battle, because there was absolutely no reason to ever pass up on a 50% miss chance that could be ignored by something like a seeking ranged weapon.

I also still found it annoying that a metronome is missing out on initiative benefits at 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Deimosaur

2018-01-18, 06:42 PM

Paradox shift has been adjusted.

Is momentum precision damage? Or is it multiplied on crits?
No, and no. Momentum is bonus damage, like from a fighter's weapon training, or the power attack feat. Its damage type is the same as the same as the rest of the damage of the attack it's being delivered with.

Air0r

2018-01-18, 09:55 PM

Paradox shift has been adjusted.

No, and no. Momentum is bonus damage, like from a fighter's weapon training, or the power attack feat. Its damage type is the same as the same as the rest of the damage of the attack it's being delivered with.

but wait... wouldn't that mean that is DOES get multiplied in a crit, just like a fighter's weapon training and power attack?

Tkags

2018-01-18, 10:12 PM

but wait... wouldn't that mean that is DOES get multiplied in a crit, just like a fighter's weapon training and power attack?

Yes it does!

Forrestfire

2018-01-18, 10:31 PM

No, it doesn't.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Per the core rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html), bonus dice are never multiplied on crits (regardless of source), but it's otherwise the same as any other additional damage (such as counting as part of the base attack for overcoming DR, sharing damage type, and the like).

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-19, 12:27 AM

This is a bad update to paradox shift. You are adjacent to yourself (otherwise, familiars and psicrystals in your space would not be adjacent to you). All Deimosaur has done is ensure that a voyager keeps spamming paradox shift on themselves, so as to guard themselves with 50% miss chance (which is still ambiguous as to whether it applies to attack rolls, or all offensive combat actions) which they can ignore with a seeking weapon (or a heartseeking weapon, which is strictly inferior, thus making melee voyagers worse than crossfires at exploiting this).

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-19, 07:35 PM

Forrestfire

2018-01-19, 10:18 PM

It looks like paradox shift has been updated such that a voyager can no longer use it on themselves, but it still runs into huge cans of metaphorical worms since it still operates on miss chances. There is the ambiguity between "attacks" as in "attack rolls" or as in "offensive combat actions," and if it affects only attack rolls, then paradox shift is of very little use against monsters with spell-like abilities and/or supernatural abilities.

This seems like that's very game-dependent. Most campaigns I've been in don't let miss chances apply to spells, despite it being arguable RAW that it does. If you're worried about a possible interpretation of the base rules, that's something I'd think you should talk to your GM about. As an ability, its strength would obviously depend on how the GM rules. The ability is miss chance, it works like miss chance, if your game rules miss chance to be stronger, so too is the ability. What's the issue here? :smallconfused:

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-19, 11:33 PM

By your reasoning, in most campaigns, paradox shift would apply its miss chance only against attacks. That means that it is not much help against any monster with spell-like abilities or non-attack-roll supernatural abilities, and indeed, using it against such a monster means screwing over the party more likely than not. This makes paradox shift a smidge too situational for my liking.

Besides that, paradox shift is still strongly in favor of ranged voyagers over melee voyagers, because ranged voyagers can shoot straight past the miss chance anyway with a seeking weapon (already a top-notch magic weapon special ability), whereas melee voyagers have to fuss with the weaker heartseeking. This certainly does not help the paradigm of the crossfire being superior to melee voyagers due to targeting touch AC while suffering from few of the downsides of firearms.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-22, 03:47 AM

I had played in another session as an 11th-level voyager (crossfire, metronome). Most of the old issues I had previously mentioned still applied, except that I simply could not find all that many good uses for the new paradox shift in the encounter we faced (singular enemy) and in the multiple encounters we bypassed (multiple enemies, but potentially with options to do something other than attack). It looks like a very narrow parallel action now, which makes 11th level somewhat anticlimactic.

Additionally, I finally noticed that accomplished accomplice is terribly vague in what it actually does. It allows for aid another attempts for attack rolls and AC, but it seems to completely circumvent the conventional rules for aiding attack rolls and AC, and could thus use clarification. In particular, it works on the "next applicable action of the target," which is confusing when it can aid AC.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-24, 09:28 PM

This had just come up in a battle I am running at this very moment:

Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
Would multiple uses of a voyager's accomplished accomplice stack, if used by separate voyagers?

Also, we are quickly discovering the merits of using the "delay" combat action to cheese out the timing of pause with the metronome archetype's non-initiative-count-reliant wording, which helps the party beat down on a paused enemy regardless.

We are also finding out that sometimes, it is better for even a dedicated melee voyager to set aside a melee weapon, set aside augmented attack, and throw some flasks of alchemist's fire (or acid) with the "throw splash weapon" special combat action simply to target a near-unhittable enemy's touch AC. While augmented attacks are not compatible with splash weapons, momentum is. This is perhaps a case in favor against allowing augmented attacks to work with standard action weapon attacks in general.

Update: The party just took down a CR 20 maharaja rakshasa, upgraded to CR 22 with the advanced and agile templates. The way I interpreted the agile template gave the maharaja four turns per round. Fortunately, thanks to some dice luck and the clever idea of using alchemist's fire to target touch AC and circumvent damage reduction 20/good and piercing, the two 10th-level voyagers prevailed. This was, for all intents and purposes, a rakshasa rajadhiraja, which are CR 21 to 25. So this was tantamount to taking down one of the weaker archfiends despite all its spellslinging and its four turns per round. I played the rakshasa to the best of my abilities, and the party did not use form astral suit, maneuvers, stances, or consumables beyond alchemist's fire.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-26, 09:16 AM

Here is a heavily belated (three weeks belated) battle report.

Battle Against Two Quantium Golems (Sort Of):
• Party: Ranged voyager (crossfire, metronome), 9th-level

• Buffs on the Solo PC: Absolutely nothing, aside from a manifester level 12th, unaugmented, half-strength wind tunnel (+5 feet to range increments) from an external source. Also, the voyager happened to have adamantine bullets on hand.

• Enemies: Two supposedly CR 20 green quantium golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-quantium)s benefiting from the extra hit points. However, one of the quantium golems (the one with the colored triangles upon its token) was immune to all damage and mystically tied to the animating force of the other; if the former quantium golem was destroyed, the damage-immune golem would automatically be destroyed as well.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/406445094686949376/Battle_Golem.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: Due to various magics upon the statues and the pillars, they did not act as regular cover. The quantium golems' melee attacks could swing right through them, and their eldritch surges could fire right through them, destroying whichever squares the line passed through. However, an eldritch surge could fire through only one obstacle at a time (the second obstacle would stop it cold). Even if an eldritch surge destroyed squares of a single obstacle, a creature taking cover behind that obstacle gained the ability to roll any and all natural 1s on Reflex saving throws, in place of the regular benefit of cover. This might not sound like much, but otherwise, a single natural 1 on a Reflex save would result in the character instantly dying to 30d6 damage.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: The Small-sized PC started off the combat in a suit of full plate due to convoluted storyline reasons, which was obviously very bad for them.

• Intended Difficulty: Easy.

• Initiative Results: The voyager, and then the quantium golems.

• Battle Duration: 11 rounds.

• Power Points Expended: 7 power points on a defensive precognition, and then 6 power points on two hustles.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: The voyager opened up with a foreshadow parallel action to escape the golems and a temporal duelist to raise Reflex, then an application of momentous maneuvers to sunder their own full plate armor with their racial claw natural weapon. Fortunately, armor for Small PCs has very low hit points, and I ruled that they hit themselves on anything but a natural 1, so the voyager was able to strip herself in a single turn. Soon thereafter, the voyager threw up a 7-point defensive precognition via power channel to raise their Reflex.

• The voyager knew that they absolutely could not survive any melee attacks from the quantium golems, so they always ended their turn 65+ feet away from both golems, well outside of charge range. This was quite feasible for the voyager due to their high speed, and their boots of speed certainly helped.

• This was a highly dynamic battle. Thanks to augmented attack's dash function, a couple of hustles, and intelligent positioning, the voyager was able to take shots at one quantium golem from exactly 25 feet away (for a touch attack), and then retreat behind an obstacle for cover, round after round.

• The voyager spammed pause as their parallel action to keep the damage-immune golem out of the fight, and when pause was "cooling down," used rewind instead to help with positioning and to prevent having to spend power points on hustle.

• The voyager's player did an excellent job of positioning themselves in such a way that the quantium golem(s) had to shoot their eldritch surges through cover. There were a couple of rounds wherein things got dicey, because the damage-immune quantium golem was un-paused and managed to get a clear shot on the voyager, but the voyager's temporal-duelist-bloated Reflex pulled through anyway.

• All in all, this battle was a good exercise in showcasing a voyager's mobility and ability to confound opponents in a battle with important terrain.

~

I will try to get a battle report on the party's more recent battles, as 10th-level voyagers, as soon as possible. Their first battle was against a heavily-buffed CR 21 tor linnorm (probably higher than CR 21 due to all the buffs it had), and their second battle was against a CR 22 advanced agile maharaja rakshasa focused on save-or-lose spellcasting. The party was fully buffed each time, and they prevailed against such formidable opponents. We opted against using psionic power sharing and form astral suit in this playtest, but the party did have metamorphosis from Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat, which certainly helped bloat their numbers.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-28, 10:56 AM

There is not much point in talking more about a voyager's noncombat capacities apart from "they are very good skill monkeys due to Intelligence as a key ability score, 6 + Intelligence skill point, (admittedly noncombat-restricted) bardic knowledge, and accomplished accomplice." Most of my voyager playtest sessions involve the characters skill monkeying around. The clarification for using Stealth with afterimages has cleared up matters a great deal, at the very least. I do have to say that trap foresight has proven rather unsatisfying throughout the entire campaign so far; we have come across many Disable Device checks wherein regular old trapfinding would have been preferrable, due to trap foresight being completely incompatible with taking 10 and taking 20.

The following battle reports all share the same combat parameters:

• Party: Melee voyager (metronome), ranged voyager (crossfire, metronome), 10th-level

• Buffs on the Party: 10-point defensive precognition, 9-point inertial armor, 9-point metamorphosis (two less size categories, natural armor, flight), 7-point slip the bonds, 5-point metaphysical weapon on both weapons, 3-point concealing amorpha, 1-point force screen, and, in the case of the melee voyager, 10-point offensive precognition

The first two combats took place during the same adventuring day, with mere minutes between them. The third combat belonged to a separate adventuring day, and a fourth combat is soon to follow just minutes later.

All three of these combats involved CR 20 to 22 opponents played to the best of my ability as a GM. It became very clear that even without the cheese that is form astral suit, and even without the psionic-power-sharing mechanic, a 10th-level half-manifester can hemorrhage power points to bloat their numbers to ridiculous heights. Metamorphosis, acquired via Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat, was by far the biggest offender here, due to the benefits of shrinking a Small character down to Diminutive. The party had AC 51 with boots of speed and temporal duelist active, which was rather ridiculous.

Battle Against the Buffed Tor Linnorm:
• Enemy: One supposedly CR 21 tor linnorm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/linnorm/linnorm-tor). This one was stronger than usual: it had a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma, and its breath weapon had no recharge time and never affected itself. I suppose that effectively made it CR 22 or so. The tor linnorm also had Symbol of Mercy as a bonus feat, for all intents and purposes.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/404322788611194880/Battle_Linnorm.png)

• Terrain Gimmick: Starting and/or ending one's turn over the "profane lava" squares dealt 30 damage, which ignored fire resistance, but not fire immunity.

• Intended Difficulty: Easy.

• Initiative Results: The melee voyager, then the tor linnorm, then the ranged voyager.

• Battle Duration: 8 rounds.

• Power Points Expended: The melee voyager spent 6 power points on two uses of sidestep.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: All throughout the battle, it was trivial for the voyagers to avoid the "profane lava" squares, because they could move, perform an augmented attack, and then use augmented attack to bounce back to a square over one of the safe islands. It was likewise easy for them to avoid the "Fortitude save or spend the round choking and coughing" effect, even if they started their turn within a cloud of smoke, because as metronomes, they could simply use rewind to teleport away immediately before their actual turn started. Touchsight made the smoke a non-issue. The voyagers were hard counters for the tor linnorm, for all intents and purposes.

• Unfortunately, the ranged voyager was able to take only one actual turn. Due to temporal duelist, they could fail the DC 35 Reflex saving throw against the tor linnorm's breath weapon only on a natural 1. As fate would have it, during the second round, they rolled a natural 1 on their Reflex saving throw against 24d8+2 fire damage, a rare moment wherein improved evasion would have actually been useful. The ranged voyager was placed under the equivalent of a Symbol of Mercy.

• The melee voyager had to solo the buffed tor linnorm throughout the rest of the battle. The tor linnorm ditched the breath weapon and attempted an Improved Vital Strike against the melee voyager, but had a terribly hard time hitting due to bloated AC and temporal duelist. The tor linnorm switched to Power Attacking Awesome Blow, which I ruled to be a weapon-based combat maneuver (and thus an attack) for the purposes of sidestep. Power Attacking Awesome Blow missed only on a natural 1, but temporal duelist forced a natural 1 at one point anyway, and concealing amorpha likewise forced a miss even despite Blind-Fight. The melee voyager absorbed the rest of the Awesome Blows with two sidesteps and their natural hit points before finally finishing off the tor linnorm.

• The melee voyager mostly used accomplished accomplish to boost their attack bonus against the tor linnorm, foreshadow to avoid attacks of opportunity, and the occasional rewind to escape the breath weapon's area of effect.

~

Battle Against the Rajadhiraja:

• Enemy: One supposedly CR 22 rakshasa rajadhiraja. This was a stock CR 20 maharaja rakshasa (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/rakshasa/rakshasa-maharaja) with the default list of spells known, plus the agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-monsters) and advanced templates. The way I ruled the agile template gave the maharaja a whopping four turns per round, although two of those turns offered only standard actions with no move actions or swift actions. The rajadhiraja also had a nodachi in place of a falchion, and effectively had Symbol of Mercy as a bonus feat.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/405941314396618764/Battle_Maharaja.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: The "blood waterfall" to the side granted total concealment to anyone inside it. However, it was so gross that anyone who started or ended their turn in it was sickened until the end of their next turn.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: The blood on the floor was, for all intents and purposes, simply difficult terrain that could be circumvented by Acrobatics-based bunny-hopping.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: The bone spurs were effectively ceiling-height pillars that granted total cover.

• Intended Difficulty: Extremely hard. This is by far the most difficult battle they have faced so far. I projected a very low chance of them winning this one. If they had lost, I would have spared them, let them skill monkey around in a noncombat sequence, and allowed them to remove the rajadhiraja's agile template before trying again in a rematch. Nevertheless, they pulled through.

• Initiative Results: The rajadhiraja's four turns, and then the voyagers.

• Battle Duration: 6 rounds.

• Power Points Expended: The ranged voyager spent 5 power points on a power channel to reapply a metamorphosis for flight, while the melee voyager spent 3 power points on a sidestep to avoid a critical hit.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: The party had no access to good-aligned weapons, unfortunately, and the rajadhiraja was already buffed with true seeing and mage armor. Fortunately for the party, the rajadhiraja had no means of actually viewing the party's buffs, aside from the obvious metamorphosis and the true-seeing-perceived inertial armor.

• During the first two rounds, the rajadhiraja did nothing but spam baleful polymorph and quickened baleful polymorph (apparently, this was a rules mistake from me as a GM, since a character can use only one Quickened spell per round). Fortunately, the characters had been investing in magic items to shore up their poor Fortitude saves; this and defensive precognition helped them completely luck out and come out of this cheesy volley unscathed. It was only afterwards that the rajadhiraja opted for the tactic of using greater dispel magic, Quickened vampiric touch, and full attacks.

• The party managed to reapply buffs The party stayed 35+ feet from one another at all times to avoid weird. The used augmented attack's dash function to bounce into the "blood waterfall" and gain total concealment against the rajadhiraja as needed, effectively splitting up its fire, even if it did sicken one voyager at a time. For their parallel actions, all they did was spam accomplished accomplish to rig attack rolls, and rewind for better positioning. There were also a couple of desperate uses of pause hoping for a natural 1, and one of them actually did work; that was when we discovered the potential for metronomes to cheese the duration of pause simply by having allies use "delay."

• The rajadhiraja's obnoxiously high regular AC and damage reduction 20 had proven problematic for the melee voyager, all the more so when the rajadhiraja started flying out of the metamorphosis-dispelled melee voyager's reach. The melee voyager solved this by using boots of speed to help with high jumps, and by spending standard actions on "throw splash weapon" with alchemist's fire rather than augmented attacks. Although this did not come with the benefits of blink, it did land attacks against touch AC while benefiting from momentum's accuracy and damage increases.

• Temporal duelist was certainly a life-saver here. It helped deflect many of the rajadhiraja's Quickened vampiric touches and caused a few misses on its full attacks.

• The rajadhiraja placed the ranged voyager in a Symbol of Mercy by the seventh round, but the melee voyager finished off the rajadhiraja with her third flask of alchemist's fire by the eighth round.

~

Battle Against the Advanced Zarxorin:

• Enemy: One supposedly CR 19 zarxorin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/zarxorin), upgraded to CR 20 with the advanced template.

• Starting Terrain and Positions (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351756476231974913/407195018701570058/Battle_Zarxorin.png)

• Terrain Gimmick #1: The zarxorin used its freeze (ex) ability to take 20 on its Stealth check and thus earned a surprise round as it popped up right underneath the PCs.

• Terrain Gimmick #2: This was an underground forest, so the ceiling height never allowed for flying above the zarxorin's reach.

• Terrain Gimmick #3: Although the "supernaturally dense forest" spaces could not be moved into, the characters could move behind the rocks for regular cover, granting +4 AC and +2 Reflex.

• Intended Difficulty: Hard.

• Initiative Results: One surprise round in which the advanced zarxorin acted. Afterwards, the advanced zarxorin, and then the voyagers.

• Battle Duration: One surprise round, and then 4 regular rounds.

• Power Points Expended: None.

• Notes on the Actual Combat: This was a rather luck-dependent battle. The advanced zarxorin spammed menhir focus pool (su) every round to force 20d6+2 electricity damage (Reflex DC 42 halves), with 1d6 rounds of slowing for anyone who took the damage. The voyagers succeeded on every single Reflex save due to their buffs, such as metamorphosis for Diminutive size and defensive precognition, due to their momentum increasing Reflex, and due to temporal duelist cranking up their Reflex even further.

• The voyagers spammed accomplished accomplice to raise the melee voyager's attack bonus against the AC 38 advanced zarxorin, foreshadow to gain breathing room against its 30-foot reach, and occasionally, rewind to get into a better position. The voyagers' judicious usage of augmented attack resulted in them ending every one of their turns behind cover for +2 Reflex, and also more 40+ feet away from the advanced zarxorin. This way, it was impossible for the zarxorin to both attack and blast lightning (except during the start of the battle), because the voyagers were simply out of reach.

• The ranged voyager provoked attacks of opportunity with each of their shots, but fortunately, concealing amorpha, many AC-raising buffs, and temporal duelist bloated their defenses high enough that the advanced zarxorin's attacks of opportunity simply did not cut it. The enemy was not smart enough to go for disarms or sunders either.

• This was a great showcase in just how well voyagers can exploit simple cover and regular-movement-speed enemies.

Galacktic

2018-01-28, 03:18 PM

I've been following this thread with great interest, and Edna, given your experience playtesting them do you think that the Voyagers are overtuned? You're routinely throwing CR 18-22 encounters at a pair of level 10 characters - is it all purely the amount of pre-fight buffs they have up or what?

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-28, 05:10 PM

We have been holding back from certain mechanics, such as psionic-power-sharing, form astral suit, and similar things. However, at the moment, much of the characters' raw numbers bloat comes from the way psionic powers work, combined with my GMing style (only two to three encounters per adventuring day, sometimes one after the other). This is a problem more endemic to psionics rather than the voyager itself, and it is rather difficult to avoid given optimized psionicists and appropriate preparation time before battles. You will notice that some battles have caught the party blindsided with zero buffs, but otherwise, they have been able to buff well beforehand.

Also, while some of the battles in this playtest have involved four to six opponents, most of the recent battles have been against only one or two opponents, which is definitely the specialty of the voyager.

Contrast this with my experiences as a player under a GM who likes to send 10 to 16 opponents against the party at a time, and who allows Path of War material. In that game, my own 11th-level (now, 12th-level) voyager lags behind the initiators and their nigh-unbeatable combat toolboxes.

khadgar567

2018-01-29, 02:06 AM

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-29, 03:27 AM

Earlier, I was playing a 12th-level voyager (metronome) who had been rebuilt into a melee character, using an elven curve blade. My partner was a fighter (myrmidon) 5/landsknecht 7. We faced a whopping 21 enemies this time around, because this GM apparently has a thing for using plenty and plenty of enemies.

I managed to wring out some usefulness from Martial Training and Path of War maneuvers by opening up combat with an augmented attack to move and then attack, moving away with Narcissism (The Skirmisher), building up momentum with another move action, and then using minute hand as a swift action. Although this dealt impressive damage, the opportunity cost for this alpha strike was heavy, since this consumed a swift action that could have been spent on borrowed time, and it left my character with only 1 momentum afterwards from The Skirmisher.

Just as before, I saw absolutely no use for paradox shift during this entire battle. I simply spammed foreshadow to avoid attacks of opportunity, and pause to deny enemy actions.

People say that Path of War characters have trouble with crowds, but that simply is not true for a 12th-level initiator. They had impressive crowd control options available to them on top of the usual "explode everything" maneuvers that optimized initiators are infamous for. They were able to contribute a great deal to this encounter, whereas my character was of marginal usefulness after their minute hand-empowered alpha strike. It really, really hurts for a voyager to be so utterly incapable of handling crowds until 13th level, due to their class features being so intimately tied to singular attacks.

At least a 12th-level archer inquisitor or occultist could take out multiple enemies each round by full attacking. A 12th-level voyager has no such recourse. Even an archer voyager would not be able to do much, as Rapid Shot builds simply are not an option for voyagers. I dare say that there is absolutely no good mechanical reason to be an archer voyager, especially when the voyager (crossfire) is generally the strongest type of voyager in most campaigns by the mid-levels.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-29, 04:18 AM

Things I would change about the voyager, level by level:
• 1: Momentum: Being fully immobilized is harsh enough for a voyager. I do not see why it should drain a voyager of all of their momentum at the start of their turn. Letting a voyager preserve that momentum would at least let a voyager make a desperate attempt to make the most of it.
• 1: Trap Foresight: I would change this for plain old trapfinding, either that or have expending psionic focus grant a scaling bonus, so that it is actually compatible with taking 10 or 20. When something is more situational than trapfinding, then it is in trouble.
• 1: Parallel Action: Assisted Escape: Assisted escape can help prevent a bad situation, but it is too inconvenient to time the usage of; expending psionic focus is a no-no for voyagers before 7th level. If it was "pay up an immediate action and your next parallel action," then it would be more appealing.
• 1: Parallel Action: Dual Threat: I would grant a voyager bonus damage to attacks of opportunity while using this. A voyager has limp-wristed attacks of opportuntity.
• 1: Parallel Action: Phantom Feint: I would have the first function drain all of a creature's attacks of opportunity. Yes, it screws over Combat Reflexes, but phantom feint's second function also screws over counters, Deflect Arrows, deflect, sidestep, and the like.
• 2: Manifestation of Speed: I would have this function with any attack made with a weapon as part of a standard action, aside from Vital Strike and splash weapons. If a highlord (sovereign) and a malefex can both make good use of Martial Training, a voyager should be able to as well. I would also have dash avoid attacks of opportunity to some degree, so as to help non-reach melee voyagers who do not have (or cannot have) Narcissism for The Skirmisher.
• 3: Parallel Action: Fast-Forward: This could use a small boost; I have not seen any reason to take it on any voyager so far.
• 4: Voyager Knowledge (also Gunfire Training): Some of the feats here could stand to be replaced by other, more useful, yet still niche feats. Cloak Dance, Shot on the Run, Sliding Dash, and Spring Attack are rather incompatible with a voyager's augmented-attack-heavy playstyle.
• 5: Momentous Maneuvers and Maneuver Augmentation: I would package these as a single feat, perhaps with some upgrades to it. I would replace these entirely with an AoE option, like the following: "Force Wave (Su): At 5th level, a voyager can channel her momentum into selective blasts of concussive force. As a standard action, a voyager can spend any amount of momentum and deal force damage to any enemies she designates in a (10? 15?)-foot cone. The length of this cone increases by 5 feet for every (2? 3?) class levels beyond 5th level. The cone deals damage equal to the damage she could normally deal with momentum (normally 1d6 per point of momentum spent in this way), with a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the voyager's class level + the voyager's Intelligence modifier) for half damage." Bear in mind that this would not interact with augmented attack, so it is never strictly better than attacking.
• 7: Parallel Action: Power Echo: This could use some auxiliary benefit; I have only ever seen its current version used to help with metaphysical weapon at the start of an adventuring day.
• 7: Parallel Action: Special Delivery: This needs to affect only enemies, so as to avoid screwing over allies.
• 9: Multitask: This could stand to raise the cap on momentum + power points spent. It is currently too niche when power channel suffices for the most part.
• 11: Parallel Action: Keep Watch: Remove the Perception penalty, and give a better reason to actually use this for scouting. I have tried to see uses for this as a player mid-game, and I have turned up very little. It is rather pathetic a scouting option by 11th-level standards.
• 11: Parallel Action: Paradox Shift: This really needs to cover all offensive combat actions. It is too niche against CR 11+ enemies by the time it is gained.
• 12: Improved Evasion: A voyager has bloated Reflex. 12th level should come with another class feature, because improved initiative is essentially a ribbon in the vast majority of situations.
• 15: Parallel Action: Emergency Stasis: Reversal of fortune is absolutely amazing for rigging dice rolls both in and out of combat. Emergency stasis should give a commensurately larger benefit as well, both in and out of battle.
• 17: Greater Multitask: This should give a far larger benefit, as befits a 17th-level class feature. Right now, it is complete overkill given power channel and multitask.

• The Voyager Power List in General: Much of the voyager power list is chaff that is hardly compatible with a voyager's playstyle, such as vampiric blade (only one attack per round, and a low-base-damage attack, at that) and vanishing strike (full-round action). Powers like these should really be trimmed from the voyager's power list, and replaced with more useful utility powers from products like Psionics Augmented: Seventh Path (the sane parts of it, at least, but remember that the medium [empath] receives shunning of the material even with only a flimsy thematic connect), Psionics Augmented: Powers, and Psionics Augmented: Powers II. It is a little silly that a voyager lacks borrowed future self from Powers II on its native power list, possibly at a level lower. Also, hustle needs to head back to 2nd level; it is practically mandatory for a 7th-level voyager's bonus Expanded Knowledge to be spent on hustle.

• Feat: Blink Ambush: Rather than giving this an extra benefit if taken alongside Improved Feint, this needs to be integrated with the benefit of Improved Feint outright; it is too niche a feat otherwise. As well, Blink Ambush should have its (already redundant) Improved Feint prerequisite removed.
• Feat: Divert Perception: I cannot help but think that this is going to lead to goblins of the Lords of the Wheel martial tradition (which grants Lurker in Darkness as a bonus feat) taking this feat and becoming completely undetectable by any means. This feat opens up a great can of worms for Stealth, and it is not even voyager-exclusive.

• Crossfire 1: Parallel Action: Covering Fire: Working with CMB vs. ever-scaling CMD is awful. This should force a Will saving throw instead, or possibly Reflex.
• Crossfire 4: Gunfire Training: See my comment on voyager knowledge.

• Metronome: I would grant a metronome a +1 bonus to initiative at 11th, 15th, and 19th level, so that it at least gets something compared to a regular voyager at those levels.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-30, 06:13 AM

P.S. It would be really quite nice to have Diplomacy on the voyager class skill list, seeing how it is supposed to be a skill monkey and it already has Bluff and Sense Motive. Not having to spend a trait on it would be an appreciable quality of life improvement.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-01-31, 06:07 AM

For that matter, all Knowledge skills being in-class would be a good quality-of-life improvement too; a voyager has some difficulty performing the advertised "seems to always know more than she should" before information exchange at 6th level.

remetagross

2018-01-31, 12:47 PM

EarthSeraphEdna have you tried out the non-metronome Voyager? How does that play out?

Deimosaur, if the metronome Voyager seems to be such a best choice in most cases, maybe it should become the main archetype?

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-02-01, 02:32 AM

I have not, mostly because I still see little reason to be anything but a metronome, but that is primarily due to convenience.

khadgar567

2018-02-01, 02:43 AM

well i can testify for edna. as he has good sense on finding broken builds or stress test them good.

calyst

2018-02-01, 11:47 AM

slipstream feint between playtest and release is gone, and it's still required for blink ambush

Deimosaur

2018-02-01, 09:49 PM

slipstream feint between playtest and release is gone, and it's still required for blink ambush
Oops.

Well, I didn't intend for that feat to change at all, or to be removed. I'll be leaving the playtest document up until the official release (maybe a little longer), so please just grab slipstream feint from there if you need it. Accidents happen, but sorry for the inconvenience!

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-02-01, 09:53 PM

I have to wonder how much of my last-minute playtest data and suggestions actually mattered. It is possible that I was too late.

Deimosaur

2018-02-02, 01:26 AM

It's unlikely any big changes will happen between now and release, but feedback from earlier was taken into account when possible. There are some differences between the playtest document and what we have currently as the final product.

meat_shield

2018-02-18, 05:51 AM

Question about the Parallel action Dual Threat. It reads as follows:

Dual Threat: The voyager’s parallel selves can present a danger to enemies, extending her effective reach. When the voyager uses this parallel action, she designates a square adjacent to her. For 1 round, she can threaten and flank creatures from this square, as well as from her own location (as normal). If a creature provokes an attack of opportunity while adjacent to this location, the voyager can make an attack of opportunity against that creature as if she were occupying that square, even if she is out of reach normally.

My question - is this ability incompatible /w reach weapons. That is if I am wielding a weapon /w reach (so I have a 10' reach) will the square still only allow me to threaten squares adjacent to the chosen square? And if so - can I make an attack of opportunity against them even if my reach weapon would not allow me to do so (IE if the are adjacent to the chosen square and provoke an AoO) ? Why not replace adjacent /w "Threatened" to allow more flexibility.

meat_shield

2018-02-20, 05:27 AM

And one random question - what is Narcissism (The Skirmisher) ? Is this a feat? Its mentioned throughout the playtest but I'm not sure "what" it is ?

Galacktic

2018-02-20, 02:08 PM

And one random question - what is Narcissism (The Skirmisher) ? Is this a feat? Its mentioned throughout the playtest but I'm not sure "what" it is ?

That's something from the Rajah playtest - it's a Veil that they can equip (The Skirmisher) and Narcissism is a feat allows them to equip it to themselves. It allows them to attack and then move without provoking attacks of opportunity among some other niceties.

Alistaroc

2018-02-23, 11:53 PM

I had drawn up the outline for a Voyager I'm finally getting to play, but it seems I found something that, as near as I can tell, doubled momentum damage on a charge.
I can't find this in the playtest anymore, does anyone know what it was?
Just trying to prove to the GM I'm neither crazy nor trying to "cheat him."

Galacktic

2018-02-24, 01:17 AM

Chepok

2018-03-07, 09:47 AM

Good day everyone.

Got a question about interaction of Inevitable Strike and Power Channel portion of the Augmented Attack.
Is it possible to get +20 to hit via the augmentation option of the Inevitable Strike or I'm unable to do so and will be left with +5 bonus to hit in any case?

Deimosaur

2018-03-07, 02:14 PM

Hey, people. Checking in.

I had drawn up the outline for a Voyager I'm finally getting to play, but it seems I found something that, as near as I can tell, doubled momentum damage on a charge.
I can't find this in the playtest anymore, does anyone know what it was?
Just trying to prove to the GM I'm neither crazy nor trying to "cheat him."
Yeah, it's gone now. It was a few months ago, but I believe Galacktic is correct in that it used to be part of Amplified Momentum.

I hope your GM believes you (and me!).

Good day everyone.

Got a question about interaction of Inevitable Strike and Power Channel portion of the Augmented Attack.
Is it possible to get +20 to hit via the augmentation option of the Inevitable Strike or I'm unable to do so and will be left with +5 bonus to hit in any case?
Initially this looks kind of fuzzy, but I gave it some thought. The general impression I get is that the augment is a cost. Since you can't actually increase the manifesting time (since you're doing it as part of a standard action no matter what), you can't pay the cost of the augment. So you cannot augment the power in such a fashion. Likewise, this applies to any other hypothetical powers that normally qualify for power channel but have augments that increase their manifesting time.

Deimosaur

2018-04-02, 04:02 PM

The release has happened! The PDF is now available in... various places (that I can't really say here, but it's easy enough to fish up on appropriate stores). The playtest is over. The document will remain available for a week until closing on the 9th of April.

Everybody that contributed on the thread, or even those that just lurked and checked out the class on the quiet: thank you!

I know a feat is missing from the final document. I can't do anything about that personally, but until that's been fixed I am putting the missing feat here.
Slipstream Feint (Psionic)
By imbuing yourself with psionic speed, you can fake out even the most wary or brainless foes.
Benefit: Whenever you make a feint attempt while you are psionically focused, you can forgo the normal bluff check. If you do, the target must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your highest mental ability modifier) or be treated as if you had successfully feinted them (even if they are mindless or otherwise immune to feints).
Special: This feat counts as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the Improved Feint feat, as well as feats that require Improved Feint as a prerequisite. If you possess the Improved Feint feat, you increase the Reflex save DC of this feat by +2. If you possess the Greater Feint feat, you increase it by a further +2.

EarthSeraphEdna

2018-04-07, 02:01 AM

Slipstream Feint is still nonexistent in the final version, which means that Blink Ambush cannot be taken either.

Ladikn

2018-06-01, 07:08 PM

Oops.

Well, I didn't intend for that feat to change at all, or to be removed. I'll be leaving the playtest document up until the official release (maybe a little longer), so please just grab slipstream feint from there if you need it. Accidents happen, but sorry for the inconvenience!

Any updates on this? Slipstream Feint isn't in the playtest document anymore, and it doesn't look like the book has been updated either.

Deviston

2019-04-16, 07:29 AM

Unofficially but from the author:
"Slipstream Feint (Psionic)
By imbuing yourself with psionic speed, you can fake out even the most wary or brainless foes.
Benefit: Whenever you make a feint attempt while you are psionically focused, you can forgo the normal bluff check. If you do, the target must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your highest mental ability modifier) or be treated as if you had successfully feinted them (even if they are mindless or otherwise immune to feints).
Special: This feat counts as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the Improved Feint feat, as well as feats that require Improved Feint as a prerequisite. If you possess the Improved Feint feat, you increase the Reflex save DC of this feat by +2. If you possess the Greater Feint feat, you increase it by a further +2."