Favorite monstrous race/unconventional class combinations.

[Axel_690]

I've been thinking about running "age of the worm" for my group and I just thought "It would be kinda funny if the only people who stepped up to save the world were monsters." So I'm banning all the races and classes in the PHB and allowing all my players to play a monstrous race. My players are ok with this by the way, but I don't think any of them have ever played a monstrous race.

So I'd like to know everyone's favorite monstrous races and non-PHB classes, and good mixes of the two. Be as creative as possible; I plan to show this thread to my players so they can get build ideas from it. Use 3.5 and pathfinder material. 3rd party pathfinder material is open for use, as are dragon/dungeon magazine. Don't worry about racial HD and LA.

And I might find some interesting ideas for future villains as well.:smallwink:

[lord pringle]

A friend of mine swears by Pathfinder Hobgoblins, especially as Kineticists or Gunslingers. I'm simpler and love Pathfinder tieflings, though those are barely monstrous.

[AlanBruce]

Over the years as a DM I have built a bunch of oddball critters that have aided/attacked the party. the idea of giving them class levels is sound, but if you want to really get the whole monster vibe going, I would suggest Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0).

He has covered pretty much all monsters in the various PF and D&D books, giving each a savage progression of their own and interesting and very thematic abilities. Naturally, much of his work is homebrew, so it may not cater to what you are looking for.

Some I have used in my games:

Movanic Deva Jaunter 4/ Warlock 8

Coure Eladrin Bard 10/ Troubadour of Stars 2

Trumpet Archon Emissary of Barachiel 10

Brachina Fiend of Corruption 6/ Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 5

Yuki O Na Cleric 1/ Winterhaunt of Iborighu 10/ Wu Jen 3/ Mystic Theurge 10

Unseelie Bog Imp Spellthief 10/Daggerspell Mage 3


These were for a high level game, but you can water down the builds as needed for your party's set up. I know some of the builds have PHB classes thrown in, but they were needed as a base chassis.

[Florian]

Ogre Mage Wizard (Spellslinger) 1/Magus (Eldritch Archer) 1+ "Make Cone of Cold great again!"
Cloud Giant Ninja 2/Inquisitor (Umbral Stalker) 1+ "Nobody expects that giant inquisition"
Pixie Gunslinger (Firebrand) 1+ "BOOOOM"

[Celestia]

Tibbit Psion/Thrallherd who leads a church of that worships her.

Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer who claims to be a real dragon and constantly seeks validation.

A hairy spider rogue. Death comes in small packages.

A unicorn wizard. Gains wings in the third campaign.

An animated object (gazebo).

A tarrasque monk with vow of poverty.

[Axel_690]

Lookin' good guys, keep it comin'.

[radthemad4]

Monster games are pretty crazy, so I'd recommend being willing to buff (preferably) and/or nerf(if absolutely necessary) things between sessions if you observe interparty balance issues. You can allow (relatively) weaker PCs to maybe take some templates or something. I'd recommend trying to keep HD approximately equal to CR on PCs. This (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races) might be a helpful guideline for this sort of thing (I recommend using Method 2), but you might have to nudge things a bit here and there as some monsters have way better stats and/or abilities than others. Anyways

Blink Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm): Free action dimension door once per round that lets you act afterwards (full attack every round) and blink that you can turn on or off as a free action are pretty sweet. Most martial types are nice as is sneak attack (in 3.5 (but not PF) Blinking lets you sneak attack, but there's still a 20% miss chance). Shadow Hand or Veiled Moon initiator + Telflammar Shadowlord is probably broken (free action full attack + standard action full attack + move action full attack + swift action full attack) but

Nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm): Going Green Whisperer/Fochlucan Lyrist with the Chaos Music feat (+4 levels of Bardic Music) is pretty nice for a Druid/Bard kinda character. Also, they have pretty high charisma.

Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm): There's actually a handbook for this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6790.msg103779#msg103779)

Aranea (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/aranea/): 3.5 has them too, but the Pathfinder version can Web Swing.

Dark Creepers and Stalkers are pretty cool

[Axel_690]

I had no idea Blink Dogs could be so broken.

Now I wanna play a white blink dog with red warpaint and a mouthpick greatsword. lol
(bonus points if you get that reference.)

[radthemad4]

I had no idea Blink Dogs could be so broken.

Now I wanna play a white blink dog with red warpaint and a mouthpick greatsword. lol
(bonus points if you get that reference.)

That's more the Telflammar Shadowlord than the Blink Dog. At 4th level, they get Shadow Pounce, where, whenever they teleport, they get a full attack. It's almost certainly going to be considered broken at most tables when combo'd with multiple teleports in a single round (including quite likely, the ones I play in and probably any I run). Blink Dogs just get one more full attack than most others thanks to their free action dimension door. But pretty much any melee class loves free action at will dimension door (I remember using a full attack, attacking two enemies, then teleporting to another and using the remaining attacks) and blink (usually starting at the end of their turn so enemies have a 50% miss chance against them and pausing on the start so their attacks don't miss, though attacking while blinking can be handy for attacking flat footed AC at the risk of 20% miss chance). Totemist might be handy for getting extra attacks.

http://cdn3-www.gamerevolution.com/assets/uploads/2013/04/file_5262_OkamiHD_Hero.jpg

[DrKerosene]

Tibbit Psion/Thrallherd
This is one I've been wanting to see/use/play.

I think the template Unholy Scion from Heroes of Horror is pretty good on a Bugbear, or T-rex. Going Solitary Hunter Ranger with FE(arcanists) into a Mortal Hunter type prc. Or one of those Fiend of Blasphemy prcs.

A (Dark or Shadow Creature templated) Barghest PC might be fun if the rest of the Party is goblinoids.

Varags are really fast and nasty hobgoblin-cousins with spring attack.

Vril (goblinoids) have an adaptive damage reduction ability that may be fun to build around on a d2 Crusader or something.

Marruspawn are cool, I'd like to see a Marrutact Swiftblade PC. Reminds me a bit of the unlockable wizard alternate character from Gauntlet: Dark Legacy.

Forest Troll Wizards would be less hard on the Int than a normal troll or scrag.

Yakfolk have a magic-jar like SLA, get to use giants as meat puppets. Bonus points if the meat puppet becomes a Cancer Mage, Blood Magus, or Fiend of Possession and rides around inside someone else.

Whatever the lesser version of a Necrothane is, may be an interesting bruiser with an (anti?)deathknight theme.

Ettins, but with aberration blood feats and deformity feats to get extra tentacles and other weird natural attacks.

[Eldan]

I'm quite fond of pixies. +8 dex, +6 intelligence, +6 cha makes for a lot of great things, be they duelists, initiators, spellcasters or some mixture thereof. Then you have small size, 60 ft. flight speed and permanent invisibility. Permanent supernatural invisibility as a free action. And a few nice small things on top, like DR and SLAs.

[jdizzlean]

any race can become monstrous if you apply the Feral template from savage species also, it's only +1 LA

[rferries]

These (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528071-Monstrous-NPCs&p=22395476)are probably all too high-powered/high-LA for your campaign, but I generally tried to adhere to RAW when drafting them. My favourite so far is the awakened bonsai tree arcane hierophant.

[Axel_690]

http://cdn3-www.gamerevolution.com/assets/uploads/2013/04/file_5262_OkamiHD_Hero.jpg

:smallbiggrin: You're bag of bonus points sir. *hands bag over*


These (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528071-Monstrous-NPCs&p=22395476)are probably all too high-powered/high-LA for your campaign, but I generally tried to adhere to RAW when drafting them. My favourite so far is the awakened bonsai tree arcane hierophant.

Too high to start as but it might give my players some ideas of builds to work towards.

[Psyren]

How do you define "monstrous race?" Any amount of RHD? Any LA? Any RP? Do you just mean "something that isn't core?" What are the boundaries?

[weckar]

If it's PF: Goblin Gunslingers are hilarious. They can literally wield handguns larger than themselves. Sheer cartoon comedy.

for 3.5, I like going with martially focused mind flayers. Beguilers or something, duskblades maybe.

[Goaty14]

Kobold Commoner; for when you want your players to feel better about themselves.

[Axel_690]

How do you define "monstrous race?" Any amount of RHD? Any LA? Any RP? Do you just mean "something that isn't core?" What are the boundaries?

Any race/creature that generally wasn't intended for players. Trolls, pixies, manticores, mindflayers, blink dogs, minotuars, etc.

Any amount of RHD/LA/RP is fine. I'm just looking for interesting combinations to show to my players to get thier gears turning. Now that I think about it, I should probably show them Tempest Stormwinds "Kung-Fu Witchcraft" post too.

[supersonic29]

I will always be partial to my time as a Lizardfolk Bard who later multiclassed into a Warlock. It doesn't make sense on paper... or in practice, but it was fun as hell to play. Mind you he started alongside a Gnome Barbarian and a Dwarf Ranger.

[Axel_690]

Succubus: warlock-9/hellfire warlock-3/telflammar shadowlord-4/warlock-4

One of my more memorable NPCs. She was a DPS/CC powerhouse.

Her 'partner in crime' was a swordsage/revenant blade/telflammar shadowlord with all the shadowhand teleportation maneuvers. 3 full attacks a round plus the CC from the succubus. They were quite a fearsome duo.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Draconians are pretty nice. An aurak draconian ends up with significant sorcerer casting along with many other benefits if you lower its LA even moderately.

[Axel_690]

Draconians are pretty nice. An aurak draconian ends up with significant sorcerer casting along with many other benefits if you lower its LA even moderately.

I am unfamiliar with draconians. What book are they from?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am unfamiliar with draconians. What book are they from?

The draconians are from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, a licensed 3rd party book. The good Noble Draconians are in the Bestiary of Krynn and its updated form, the Bestiary of Krynn, Revised, which are both 3rd party. A lot of the stronger ones offer innate class scaling (Aurak and Bozaks give sorcerer casting while Flame gives some barbarian features, Lightning give paladin, and honorable mention to Venom with a touch of sneak attack to go with its nasty poison bite).

[Nifft]

Blink Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm): Free action dimension door once per round that lets you act afterwards (full attack every round) and blink that you can turn on or off as a free action are pretty sweet. Most martial types are nice as is sneak attack (in 3.5 (but not PF) Blinking lets you sneak attack, but there's still a 20% miss chance). Shadow Hand or Veiled Moon initiator + Telflammar Shadowlord is probably broken (free action full attack + standard action full attack + move action full attack + swift action full attack)

Doesn't actually work.

Any form of dimension door ends your turn.

If you have the Shadow Pounce feature, you can get one extra full attack as your turn ends, but you don't otherwise get multiple full attacks.

[Axel_690]

The draconians are from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, a licensed 3rd party book. The good Noble Draconians are in the Bestiary of Krynn and its updated form, the Bestiary of Krynn, Revised, which are both 3rd party. A lot of the stronger ones offer innate class scaling (Aurak and Bozaks give sorcerer casting while Flame gives some barbarian features, Lightning give paladin, and honorable mention to Venom with a touch of sneak attack to go with its nasty poison bite).

I think one of my players has those books.


Doesn't actually work.

Any form of dimension door ends your turn.

If you have the Shadow Pounce feature, you can get one extra full attack as your turn ends, but you don't otherwise get multiple full attacks.

News to me.

[radthemad4]

Doesn't actually work.

Any form of dimension door ends your turn.

If you have the Shadow Pounce feature, you can get one extra full attack as your turn ends, but you don't otherwise get multiple full attacks.Normally, yes. Blink Dogs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) are an exception.


Dimension Door (Su)

A blink dog can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 8th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only the blink dog, which never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting. Also,


Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. Many Shadow Hand maneuvers from Tome of Battle and Veiled Moon maneuvers from Path of War let you teleport and have the teleportation descriptor and don't end your turn. Even non blink dogs can get multiple full attacks with Shadow Pounce by using standard (Shadow Jaunt), swift (Shadow Blink), move (Shadow Stride) and swift actions (and immediate I guess if they dip Conjurer and take Abrupt Jaunt). Veiled moon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/veiled-moon-maneuvers/) makes this even crazier.

Now, if anyone wanted to be a Shadowlord in my games I'd definitely rule it to be once per turn, but that's not RAW.

[Axel_690]

This is why I love this place. Everytime I come here I learn something new about this game.

[Nifft]

Normally, yes. Blink Dogs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm) are an exception.

Ah interesting.

It looks like that exception doesn't apply to any other teleportation, though, so the once-per-turn pounce might become twice-per-turn, but not more.

But yeah, you could at least do Racial Teleport -> full attack -> Swordsage Swift Teleport -> Pounce full attack. That would work once per encounter, or so, unless you got a better recharge mechanic.

EDIT: ... except it says "only the Blink Dog", instead of the standard behavior or the more usual limitation of "... plus 50 lbs of equipment".

That means a Blink Dog's full attack can't include any manufactured weapons. No mouthpick greatsword, for example.

A Totemist could probably still do something, but it's probably less broken if you account for all the rules.

[JyP]

I played the World's Largest Dungeon with PCs all being monsters wanting to escape from jail:
- a drow priestess got killed and decapited, her head was "reincarnated" by Lolth as an aranea warlock
- an half-ogre fighter got bitten by a wererat and became a sort of monstrous were-dire rat.
- a goblin thief found a cursed Tome of Clear Thought which slowly transformed him into a psionic mindflayer : blue rogue 1 / psion 5 / flayerspawn psychic
- a "level 1" skeleton druid which was in fact the very first Lich, depowered through a cursed metal armor.
- a pixie swashbuckler got bitten and driven mad by ghouls, becoming gravetouched ghould pixie / rogue 3 / swordsage / assassin
- a amnesic human necrocarnate, which was in fact an avatar of the Mother of Monsters.
- a mad warforged artificer, creating horrendous effigie monsters (like a chwidencha effigie)

[JyP]

I played the World's Largest Dungeon with PCs all being monsters wanting to escape from jail:
- a drow priestess got killed and decapited, her head was "reincarnated" by Lolth as an aranea warlock
- an half-ogre fighter got bitten by a wererat and became a sort of monstrous were-dire rat.
- a goblin thief found a cursed Tome of Clear Thought which slowly transformed him into a psionic mindflayer : blue rogue 1 / psion 5 / flayerspawn psychic
- a "level 1" skeleton druid which was in fact the very first Lich, depowered through a cursed metal armor.
- a pixie swashbuckler got bitten and driven mad by ghouls, becoming gravetouched ghould pixie / rogue 3 / swordsage / assassin
- a amnesic human necrocarnate, which was in fact an avatar of the Mother of Monsters.
- a mad warforged artificer, creating horrendous effigie monsters (like a chwidencha effigie)

[Axel_690]

Ah interesting.

It looks like that exception doesn't apply to any other teleportation, though, so the once-per-turn pounce might become twice-per-turn, but not more.

But yeah, you could at least do Racial Teleport -> full attack -> Swordsage Swift Teleport -> Pounce full attack. That would work once per encounter, or so, unless you got a better recharge mechanic.

So any form of teleportation automatically ends your turn?

[radthemad4]

Ah interesting.

It looks like that exception doesn't apply to any other teleportation, though, so the once-per-turn pounce might become twice-per-turn, but not more.Dimension Door explicitly says it ends your turn, but nothing in the teleportation descriptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#teleportation) description says that all teleport effects end your turn, which makes me think turn ending is a Dimension Door specific thing, and not a teleportation specific thing. If something else somewhere says teleportation ends your turn by default, please tell me where it is.


But yeah, you could at least do Racial Teleport -> full attack -> Swordsage Swift Teleport -> Pounce full attack. That would work once per encounter, or so, unless you got a better recharge mechanic.Once per encounter's still pretty crazy. The Adaptive Style feat lets you refresh with a full round action though, which lets you do it multiple times, or at least get a swift action full attack every turn if you just refresh and use it over and over again.

[Axel_690]

One of my players seems pretty interested in a black half-dragon war-troll. Yes I realize this makes him an Ikea Tarrasque.

[Nifft]

So any form of teleportation automatically ends your turn? It's specific to dimension door, which is referenced in the text of many common tactical teleports.

So no, it's not any form of teleportation.


Once per encounter's still pretty crazy. The Adaptive Style feat lets you refresh with a full round action though, which lets you do it multiple times, or at least get a swift action full attack every turn if you just refresh and use it over and over again.

Sure, but at that point you're trading a full-round action for a full attack later. That's just a "creative" way to delay a full-round action.

Also, remember that you can't use manufactured weapons after your first Blink Dog racial teleport. It costs you all of your equipment, since you explicitly only teleport yourself.

[Axel_690]

Also, remember that you can't use manufactured weapons after your first Blink Dog racial teleport. It costs you all of your equipment, since you explicitly only teleport yourself.

Well that kills the shadow-pouncing amaterasu idea.

[radthemad4]

Sure, but at that point you're trading a full-round action for a full attack later. That's just a "creative" way to delay a full-round action.It's more like 'Do I want to use three full attacks next turn, or one right now and two next turn?'


Also, remember that you can't use manufactured weapons after your first Blink Dog racial teleport. It costs you all of your equipment, since you explicitly only teleport yourself.That's the strictest possible reading. I think the intent of that line was to specify that they can't take other creatures, but that's just speculation. I'd personally allow taking equipment and other DMs might too so asking is worth a shot I suppose. 5e Blink Dogs can explicitly teleport with equipment incidentally.

It's been discussed before apparently with arguments for both sides. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?278133-Can-Blink-Dogs-carry-stuff-with-them)

[Nifft]

Well that kills the shadow-pouncing amaterasu idea.

You can still do some fun things with Unarmed Strike and/or Totemist, but yeah, it's not quite as broken as it would be if you only used half of the special rule.


That's the strictest possible reading. I think the intent of that line was to specify that they can't take other creatures, but that's just speculation

There are ways to say "can take gear, can't take creatures" -- look at basically any Demon or Devil for examples.

Then, look at the Blink Dog's entry for the line "Treasure: None" -- they are intelligent, yet they don't ever appear with gear, and this might just be why.

As a result, taking Vow of Poverty is pretty decent on a Blink Dog, whether it's yourself or your Cohort.

[denthor]

Skulk is my favorite race. Full stealth even why running.

[Axel_690]

Skulk is my favorite race. Full stealth even why running.

That sounds like fun.

[Rebel7284]

Some powerful or fun races to consider:

- Gloura: Amazing stats and Charisma to AC and Saves. 7HD 2LA. Casts as Bard 7. Can enter Sublime Chord in a fairly flavorful way.
- Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: Great stats for 3HD and 0! LA including large size. I have seen some interesting ideas such as a singing whale.
- Pixie: Already mentioned. Great Race all around! 4LA makes them a bit fragile though.
- Anthropomorphic Bat: Go-to race for druids, or really anything that needs high wisdom.
- (Dragonborn) Mongrelfolk: This is for when Con is your primary stat for some reason.
- Elan: 0LA aberrations with a useful ability to help survive the early levels. Leads to some interesting builds due to things like Rapid Strike.
- Warforged: Because robots.
- Unbodied: Playing an Incorporeal character should be interesting. 4HD, 4LA manifests as Telepath 4.
- Wurmling Steel Dragon with Loredrake: Because you can be a full on dragon gish!
- Sharn: 4HD 5LA seems high until you read the monster entry and see the double casting, ridiculous amount of extra actions, great static abilities, attacking via portals at range, etc. Pretty broken race, but may work if you want to push the power envelope some.

[Axel_690]

Some powerful or fun races to consider:

- Gloura: Amazing stats and Charisma to AC and Saves. 7HD 2LA. Casts as Bard 7. Can enter Sublime Chord in a fairly flavorful way.
- Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: Great stats for 3HD and 0! LA including large size. I have seen some interesting ideas such as a singing whale.
- Pixie: Already mentioned. Great Race all around! 4LA makes them a bit fragile though.
- Anthropomorphic Bat: Go-to race for druids, or really anything that needs high wisdom.
- (Dragonborn) Mongrelfolk: This is for when Con is your primary stat for some reason.
- Elan: 0LA aberrations with a useful ability to help survive the early levels. Leads to some interesting builds due to things like Rapid Strike.
- Warforged: Because robots.
- Unbodied: Playing an Incorporeal character should be interesting. 4HD, 4LA manifests as Telepath 4.
- Wurmling Steel Dragon with Loredrake: Because you can be a full on dragon gish!
- Sharn: 4HD 5LA seems high until you read the monster entry and see the double casting, ridiculous amount of extra actions, great static abilities, attacking via portals at range, etc. Pretty broken race, but may work if you want to push the power envelope some.

I'm unfamiliar with Gloura and Sharn. Sources?

[rferries]

I'm unfamiliar with Gloura and Sharn. Sources?

Gloura here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), a nice and flavourful fey and I applaud the recommendation.

Don't know about Sharn though.

[Blue Jay]

I'm unfamiliar with Gloura and Sharn. Sources?

Sharn is from Monsters of Faerun: basically, a bizarre-shaped aberration that can't be mimicked with any shape-changing abilities, and can open little short-range portals through which it can cast spells and stuff.

[Axel_690]

Gloura here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), a nice and flavourful fey and I applaud the recommendation.

Don't know about Sharn though.

Looks like the 3.5 version of sharn appears in Anauroch: The Empire of the Shade.

[rferries]

As for core SRD creatures, I'm very fond of those that have innate spellcasting; they lend themselves smoothly to levels in the appropriate spellcasting class, and/or mystic theurge builds. For this contest where RHD and LA aren't important, many builds are viable!

Special mention to these creatures (spellcasting abilities that exceed their HD):
Angel, Planetar
Archon, Trumpet
Formian, Queen
Ghaele
Nymph

And the rest:
Aranea
Couatl
Dragon, True
Drider
Lammasu
Lillend
Naga (Dark, Guardian, Spirit, Water)
Rakshasa
Sphinx, Androsphinx

Extra Special Repeat Mention for Chokers (can cast 2 spells per round due to Quickness)!

[Axel_690]

So far it looks like two characters are gonna be:
1) A War-Troll, possibly with the Half-Dragon(Black) template. Although I'm not sure I'll allow that cheese.
2) A Succubus.

Not sure on thier classes yet.

[unseenmage]

One of my all time favorite monstrous characters is a skeleton rogue wearing mask and gloves etc to hide his true nature as he masquerades as a magician masquerading as a wizard.
He has a rich friendly voice which always throws off suspicion.
He uses the space in his clothes where flesh should be to hide various bags and pouches of assorted liquids and powders which he slight of hands in combat.
In actual play he is a trainwreck of near constant bluff and sleight of hand checks at least one of which he will eventually flub giving away the whole disguise.

Second favorite is a sickly elf afflicted with Monstrous Lycanthropy from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary which tramsforms him into a berserk iron golem under the shadow of the new moon.
He wanders the world (https://youtu.be/rccD1EWenio) seeking a cure and remarking on how much he is disliked due to his anger issues.

Additionally, in my sig there's a link to a list of every playable creature and template, monster of otherwise, in 3.5 sorted by ECL.
Additionally, you can roll a roll up random playable creatures by ECL.
Have played a game of that once, was all kinds of fun.

[Eldan]

So far it looks like two characters are gonna be:
1) A War-Troll, possibly with the Half-Dragon(Black) template. Although I'm not sure I'll allow that cheese.
2) A Succubus.

Not sure on thier classes yet.

Not sure I'd suggest a Succubus. I mean, for being level 12 right out of the gate, they don't get much that's all that useful to players. (Well, okay. +16 charisma and +6 intelligence). Their spells are not all that useful at those levels, except for at will greater teleport, Change Shape is much more easily replicated, their immunities and resistances are so-so and they don't have anythign that really stacks with a character class.

Could I suggest Rakshasa for somethign similar, but probably better? Also a shapechanging fiend, but one with sorcerer casting that can be progressed.

[Rebel7284]

So far it looks like two characters are gonna be:
1) A War-Troll, possibly with the Half-Dragon(Black) template. Although I'm not sure I'll allow that cheese.
2) A Succubus.

Not sure on thier classes yet.

What level will you be starting at? War troll has 12HD and 6LA making it an 18th level character. Add on Half-Dragon and you're effectively epic before any classes.

If you are starting that high, Black Ethergaunt (FF p.65) is something to look at for any caster needs.
16HD 4LA casts as a 17th level Wizard, +20 Int. Immunity to arcane spells of 6th level or under is nice too.
Probably still weaker than Sharn+Mystic Theurge

Of course, as the DM you can fine-tune these values. Lowering the LA on melee brutes as those are less effective in the latter levels anyway is reasonable.

Also, Sharn are indeed in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade p. 153

[rferries]

One of my all time favorite monstrous characters is a skeleton rogue wearing mask and gloves etc to hide his true nature as he masquerades as a magician masquerading as a wizard.
He has a rich friendly voice which always throws off suspicion.
He uses the space in his clothes where flesh should be to hide various bags and pouches of assorted liquids and powders which he slight of hands in combat.
In actual play he is a trainwreck of near constant bluff and sleight of hand checks at least one of which he will eventually flub giving away the whole disguise.

Second favorite is a sickly elf afflicted with Monstrous Lycanthropy from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary which tramsforms him into a berserk iron golem under the shadow of the new moon.
He wanders the world (https://youtu.be/rccD1EWenio) seeking a cure and remarking on how much he is disliked due to his anger issues.

Additionally, in my sig there's a link to a list of every playable creature and template, monster of otherwise, in 3.5 sorted by ECL.
Additionally, you can roll a roll up random playable creatures by ECL.
Have played a game of that once, was all kinds of fun.

Those all sound pretty fun and unique! Kudos.

[Axel_690]

Not sure I'd suggest a Succubus. I mean, for being level 12 right out of the gate, they don't get much that's all that useful to players. (Well, okay. +16 charisma and +6 intelligence). Their spells are not all that useful at those levels, except for at will greater teleport, Change Shape is much more easily replicated, their immunities and resistances are so-so and they don't have anythign that really stacks with a character class.

Could I suggest Rakshasa for somethign similar, but probably better? Also a shapechanging fiend, but one with sorcerer casting that can be progressed.



What level will you be starting at? War troll has 12HD and 6LA making it an 18th level character. Add on Half-Dragon and you're effectively epic before any classes.

If you are starting that high, Black Ethergaunt (FF p.65) is something to look at for any caster needs.
16HD 4LA casts as a 17th level Wizard, +20 Int. Immunity to arcane spells of 6th level or under is nice too.
Probably still weaker than Sharn+Mystic Theurge

Of course, as the DM you can fine-tune these values. Lowering the LA on melee brutes as those are less effective in the latter levels anyway is reasonable.

Also, Sharn are indeed in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade p. 153

I still haven't decided how I'm going to handle RHD/LA, but yes, please keep making suggestions. We're currently running Savage Tide(with a much more normal party) and we're only on the first adventure, so we've got quite awhile before this campaign starts. lol

[Rebel7284]

yes, please keep making suggestions.

Some useful techniques to consider are:

- Savage progressions. Detailed in Savage Species, but some also exist online http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp
- Gestalting RHD with class levels so that your players get to use class abilities without having to wait late in the campaign. Obviously casting wouldn't stack with racial casting of the same type if you do this.

While those are fun options, I feel the simplest approach is probably to give everyone 6 free LA and start the game at level 12 so that the War Troll Character can participate at full power from the get-go and keep the rest of the rules as is.

Some other monster ideas:
- Monster Of Legend Template: (Errataed somewhere to be 7LA, I believe) is a very good way to make a less exciting race truly monstrous. Has some nice options; most notably 3.0 Haste.
- Maug (FF): is another nice construct alternative to Warforged with great stats. Can have some interesting grafts too.
- Kaorti(FF): can make some unique crit-expanded items for the whole party. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a
- Thri-kreen: Psionic grasshoppers with extra arms. There is a non-psionic version as well for less LA.
- Mechanatrix (FF): Planetouched that heals from electricity damage. Find a good AoO Electric attack you can spam. :)
- Tortle (Dragon): In case someone wants to make a teenage mutant ninja turtle.
- Arrow Demon (MM3): 10HD and 8LA is tough, but they are pretty great at archery.


Monsters Which I wouldn't play, but are unique for some reason:
- Sylph (MM2) LA +5 but excellent casting that RAW seems to progress with any other HD gained.
- Phaerimm (hatchling) Only +2LA but casting works like the Sylph. Probably shouldn't be in the same party as a Sharn due to storlyline if my (limited!) understanding of Faerun history is correct. Also... evil flying sea cucumber feels a bit weird even for such a party, but perhaps that's the right flavor for someone you know!
- Dvati: Two bodies, one soul, some super weird rules. A little too weird for me.
- Lumi (MM3) with the Lernean template are amusing due to being immune to most forms of death.

General Tip:
Ur Priest is often an amazing class for Monster Characters to take. It's simple for many things with 5HD or more to auto-qualify for and offers fast spellcasting progression.

[radthemad4]

I still haven't decided how I'm going to handle RHD/LA, but yes, please keep making suggestions
I'd recommend using this (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Playing_Unusual_Races#Converting_Monsters_Into_Cha racters). Particularly, Method 2. Racial HD and Level Adjustment tend to just make most things unplayable.

Succubus could go for Fiend of Possession if you're okay with those. If you're okay with homebrew you could try one of these: Deceiver, Bargainer, Black Maiden (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=317103#317103), Maiden of Murder (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=317990#317990)

[Axel_690]

While those are fun options, I feel the simplest approach is probably to give everyone 6 free LA and start the game at level 12 so that the War Troll Character can participate at full power from the get-go and keep the rest of the rules as is.

This is the method I've been leaning towards.

Does anyone know of anything that gets good arcane or divine spellcasting. We're thinking about having one character cover both for us.
I know someone already mentioned rakshasa get some arcane casting.

[Nifft]

This is the method I've been leaning towards.

Does anyone know of anything that gets good arcane or divine spellcasting. We're thinking about having one character cover both for us.
I know someone already mentioned rakshasa get some arcane casting.

Nymphs get Druid casting.

Aranea and Sylphs get Sorcerer casting.

Ethergaunts get Wizard casting (but they're probably too high HD).

[Axel_690]

Nymphs get Druid casting.

Aranea and Sylphs get Sorcerer casting.

Ethergaunts get Wizard casting (but they're probably too high HD).

We'll have to take a look at those. There seems to be some interest in Lillend. Does anyone know any good class/prc combos for the lillend?

Also, does anyone know what would happen if i put mystic theurge on any of the above?

[Nifft]

We'll have to take a look at those. There seems to be some interest in Lillend. Does anyone know any good class/prc combos for the lillend?

Bard / Sublime Chord

Green Whisperer / Fochlucan Lyrist

Heartfire Fanner

Lyric Thaumaturge

Virtuoso

[Axel_690]

Bard / Sublime Chord

Green Whisperer / Fochlucan Lyrist

Heartfire Fanner

Lyric Thaumaturge

Virtuoso

I know I've seen Heartfire Fanner somewhere before. A Dragon Magazine perhaps, or maybe Dragon Compendium?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ethergaunts get Wizard casting (but they're probably too high HD).

Black's almost certianly do, white's likely do, red's may not. They have a large LA but their HD is only middling.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?536767-What-types-of-monster-casters-are-there) should go a long ways towards helping you with monster casting. Neither it nor the two threads linked within are complete, but it is a start.

[Axel_690]

Black's almost certianly do, white's likely do, red's may not. They have a large LA but their HD is only middling.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?536767-What-types-of-monster-casters-are-there) should go a long ways towards helping you with monster casting. Neither it nor the two threads linked within are complete, but it is a start.

I had no idea there were so many creatures with innate spellcasting.

[Rebel7284]

This is the method I've been leaning towards.

Does anyone know of anything that gets good arcane or divine spellcasting. We're thinking about having one character cover both for us.
I know someone already mentioned rakshasa get some arcane casting.

- Sharn is the simplest way to have one character cover both arcane and divine.
- Something like Red Ethergaunt Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X works.
- White Ethergaunts at 11HD and 5LA are pretty great at casting too and fit into the War Troll shaped limit box. Not divine though.
- Sylph + Ur Priest or really anything...

[Axel_690]

-
- Something like Red Ethergaunt Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X works.

So Mystic Theurge advances the creatures innate spellcasting?

[Thurbane]

Athach Cleric 14 is CR 15, using non-associated class levels. Whether is a tougher opponent than a Human Cleric 15 was debated pretty extensively last time I mentioned it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420807)...

[Rebel7284]

So Mystic Theurge advances the creatures innate spellcasting?

Yes, if the innate spellcasting is typed as arcane or divine.

[Axel_690]

Yes, if the innate spellcasting is typed as arcane or divine.

Definitely something to look into then.

[Thurbane]

Strict reading of RAW is that creatures with innate casting must take at least one level of level of the base casting class in question (which stacks with innate levels), before it can be advanced by PrCs.

[Axel_690]

Strict reading of RAW is that creatures with innate casting must take at least one level of level of the base casting class in question (which stacks with innate levels), before it can be advanced by PrCs.

That's not a problem. Good to know though.

[Axel_690]

Thanks for all the info guys, it's been a big help.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but it looks our party face/scout/ranged damage is going to be a succubus hellfire warlock/pyrokineticist, and our arcane and divine magic is going to be covered by a lillend mystic theurge.

The war troll player isn't sure that he wants to go with that and seems to also be looking at rakshasa.

One member of our group always plays a stealthy trapfinder, so the actual party makeup depends on the unsure player. If he picks war troll nothing really changes, if he pick rakshasa then the lillends build will probably change, possibly the succubus' as well.

Does anyone else enjoy group planning/prep and character building as much as i do? I could spend days perfecting a characters concept.

[Rebel7284]

Thanks for all the info guys, it's been a big help.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but it looks our party face/scout/ranged damage is going to be a succubus hellfire warlock/pyrokineticist


Not sure how that all stacks. Hellfire Warlock's bonuses apply to eldrich blast and pyrokineticist has flame whips that are not eldrich blast...



and our arcane and divine magic is going to be covered by a lillend mystic theurge.


Seems a bit behind on spell levels as opposed to some of the other options, but hey, whatever works.



The war troll player isn't sure that he wants to go with that and seems to also be looking at rakshasa.

One member of our group always plays a stealthy trapfinder, so the actual party makeup depends on the unsure player. If he picks war troll nothing really changes, if he pick rakshasa then the lillends build will probably change, possibly the succubus' as well.



Marrulurk usually comes to my mind when I think of sneaky monsters, but there are of course many options there as well such as Skulk



Does anyone else enjoy group planning/prep and character building as much as i do? I could spend days perfecting a characters concept.


I think I like that even more than actually playing... which is why I am on these boards a lot.

[Axel_690]

Not sure how that all stacks. Hellfire Warlock's bonuses apply to eldrich blast and pyrokineticist has flame whips that are not eldrich blast...

My group houserules that Hideous Blow is a free action, and lasts till the beginning of your next turn. You manifest your Flamelash and apply Weapon Aflame and Hellfire Hideous Blow to it. It's basically a glaive-lock but with a little extra fire damage.




Seems a bit behind on spell levels as opposed to some of the other options, but hey, whatever works.

We're still in the concept phase of these characters and just started Savage Tide, so we have plenty of time to work on getting the bugs out. lol




Marrulurk usually comes to my mind when I think of sneaky monsters, but there are of course many options there as well such as Skulk.

I have no idea what creature this player will pick. Only that it will probably have levels of rogue. I know the Marrulurk is in Sandstorm, and I know I've seen the Skulk before but I don't know where.




I think I like that even more than actually playing... which is why I am on these boards a lot.

I love these boards. Always something interesting to read here.

[arkangel111]

Since PF is on the table telflammar shadow Lord and dimensional dervish feat line gives you infinite attacks. Be careful what your getting into. I know blink dog was mentioned and that would be a sick combo.
Other monsters that might be fun to play are vampires and lycanthropes, both rarely pc's due to high la rhd.
Personally I've been looking into a barghest which can pretend to be a weak goblin.

[Axel_690]

Since PF is on the table telflammar shadow Lord and dimensional dervish feat line gives you infinite attacks. Be careful what your getting into. I know blink dog was mentioned and that would be a sick combo.
Other monsters that might be fun to play are vampires and lycanthropes, both rarely pc's due to high la rhd.
Personally I've been looking into a barghest which can pretend to be a weak goblin.

Where does that feat line come from? I kinda wanna build a character that does that just for the fun of it.:smallbiggrin:

[arkangel111]

It starts here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility) but the beautiful combo comes online with this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish).

infinite attacks comes from teleport 5ft (full attack activates from telflammar) between each attack you can 5ft shift again, activating another full attack shifting between each attack, activating full attack with each shift. technically its not infinite since you are limited by your movement, but you can quickly gain 100's of attacks. DDoor for blink dog in PF is 680ft (quickened) ... divided into 5 foot increments is 136 full attacks. if you can't clear a battlefield in 136 full attacks you are doing something wrong. and with the the next feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant) you can be your own flanking buddy. Nightcrawler was an anthropomorphic blink dog.

[Blue Jay]

It starts here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility) but the beautiful combo comes online with this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish).

infinite attacks comes from teleport 5ft (full attack activates from telflammar) between each attack you can 5ft shift again, activating another full attack shifting between each attack, activating full attack with each shift. technically its not infinite since you are limited by your movement, but you can quickly gain 100's of attacks. DDoor for blink dog in PF is 680ft (quickened) ... divided into 5 foot increments is 136 full attacks. if you can't clear a battlefield in 136 full attacks you are doing something wrong.

It doesn't actually work like that.

Dimensional Dervish does not say you can divide up your teleport into any number of short teleports and make an attack after each one: it says, if you can make 3 attacks in a full attack, you can move up to twice your speed via teleportation, making 3 attacks at some point along your path.

It also doesn't cause your teleportation effect to count as multiple separate teleportation effects, and since the TS Shadow Pounce ability only activates upon completion of a teleportation effect, it will only activate once, after you've completed the Dimensional Dervish action, not once after every short hop you make. That means, at best, this combo lets you make two full attacks in a single round. And even that's debatable, because it's pretty clear that the RAI on Shadow Pounce was not to give you an extra full attack, but to let you treat teleportation like a charge attack with the Pounce ability; so a lot of DM's will probably rule that you can't use Dimensional Dervish and Shadow Pounce in the same round.

[Axel_690]

It doesn't actually work like that.

Dimensional Dervish does not say you can divide up your teleport into any number of short teleports and make an attack after each one: it says, if you can make 3 attacks in a full attack, you can move up to twice your speed via teleportation, making 3 attacks at some point along your path.

It also doesn't cause your teleportation effect to count as multiple separate teleportation effects, and since the TS Shadow Pounce ability only activates upon completion of a teleportation effect, it will only activate once, after you've completed the Dimensional Dervish action, not once after every short hop you make. That means, at best, this combo lets you make two full attacks in a single round. And even that's debatable, because it's pretty clear that the RAI on Shadow Pounce was not to give you an extra full attack, but to let you treat teleportation like a charge attack with the Pounce ability; so a lot of DM's will probably rule that you can't use Dimensional Dervish and Shadow Pounce in the same round.

Bummer. I thought I'd just been introduced to a new Lightning Maces+Roundabout Kick+Aptitude Kukris build.