How to power up an Ultimate Magus build?

[Astralia123]

I've been thinking that Ultimate Magus is a quite interesting PrC. But this class itself would not make a capable 20th level build. Is there any other way to raise two arcane spellcaster class at the same time? Or reduce the caster level loss to higher-caster-level arcane class while taking UM levels?

[Anthrowhale]

The classic tricks are using "Practiced spellcaster" on your secondary class and Illumian[Krau] to always advance a primary class or using a fast advancing prestige class like Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord.

Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) explicitly allows you to add caster levels in a specialist school.

Combining these, an Illumian[Krau] Beguiler 1/Wizard(specialist) 4/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5 could have spell access as a 19th level wizard and 8th level beguiler, as well as a caster level of 29 for wizard, 22 for Beguiler, and 51 in the specialist school. If the specialist school happens to be evocation, you face evil/neutral opponents, and you take Arcane Disciple[Good], Holy Word ends most combat encounters on your turn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ultimate Magus only increases one class's spellcasting at the 1st, 4th, and 7th level, but that's based on whichever class has the lowest caster level, or your choice if it's a tie. Practiced Spellcaster and the Illumian race's Krau sigil can easily catch up your lower level class to have an equal or greater caster level to your primary class, thus you can apply all ten UM levels toward your primary class's spellcasting.

Due to this, you can go Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Whatever 5, and have 19th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting at 20th level. Pick the Krau sigil for Illumian, and you'll need to take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and any metamagic feat at 1st and 3rd level. The last five levels can be anything that continues advancing your Wizard spellcasting, such as Incantatrix (you can even apply its prohibited school to Beguiler), Paragnostic Apostle, a Mindbender dip, the 5th Wizard level for Spontaneous Divination, Archmage, etc.

If you can use flaws to start with extra feats, get Able Learner as well. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you'll automatically qualify, and that allows you to keep up your ranks in that amazing Beguiler class skill list. Also get Versatile Spellcaster, as it allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. You spend Beguiler spell slots to activate it, and can use it to cast any Wizard spell you've learned without having to prepare it ahead of time.

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so add Krau and Practiced Spellcaster before adding the Arcane Spell Power class feature from Ultimate Magus. This makes your Wizard caster level higher than your character level for determining the variables of your spells, and your Beguiler caster level goes up to 18th so it's still viable at the highest levels.

Definitely choose a Wizard specialization, probably Conjuration considering how good Abrupt Jaunt is. For your prohibited schools pick Enchantment since Beguiler gets you access to the low to mid level spells of that school, and I'd go with Evocation or Necromancy for your other one.

You'll end up with what's effectively a full Wizard, with spontaneous access to a huge toolbox of situational and utility spells, skills like a Rogue, and alternate-cost metamagic of up to +4 metamagic cost on your 5th level and lower spells, plus an inflated caster level. This is actually the build I'll be playing if I ever get in on another 3.5 game, but I'm not sure if that's ever going to happen considering 5e, PF, and now Starfinder.

[Astralia123]

Ultimate Magus only increases one class's spellcasting at the 1st, 4th, and 7th level, but that's based on whichever class has the lowest caster level, or your choice if it's a tie. Practiced Spellcaster and the Illumian race's Krau sigil can easily catch up your lower level class to have an equal or greater caster level to your primary class, thus you can apply all ten UM levels toward your primary class's spellcasting.

Due to this, you can go Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Whatever 5, and have 19th level Wizard spellcasting and 8th level Beguiler spellcasting at 20th level. Pick the Krau sigil for Illumian, and you'll need to take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and any metamagic feat at 1st and 3rd level. The last five levels can be anything that continues advancing your Wizard spellcasting, such as Incantatrix (you can even apply its prohibited school to Beguiler), Paragnostic Apostle, a Mindbender dip, the 5th Wizard level for Spontaneous Divination, Archmage, etc.

If you can use flaws to start with extra feats, get Able Learner as well. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you'll automatically qualify, and that allows you to keep up your ranks in that amazing Beguiler class skill list. Also get Versatile Spellcaster, as it allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. You spend Beguiler spell slots to activate it, and can use it to cast any Wizard spell you've learned without having to prepare it ahead of time.

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so add Krau and Practiced Spellcaster before adding the Arcane Spell Power class feature from Ultimate Magus. This makes your Wizard caster level higher than your character level for determining the variables of your spells, and your Beguiler caster level goes up to 18th so it's still viable at the highest levels.

Definitely choose a Wizard specialization, probably Conjuration considering how good Abrupt Jaunt is. For your prohibited schools pick Enchantment since Beguiler gets you access to the low to mid level spells of that school, and I'd go with Evocation or Necromancy for your other one.

You'll end up with what's effectively a full Wizard, with spontaneous access to a huge toolbox of situational and utility spells, skills like a Rogue, and alternate-cost metamagic of up to +4 metamagic cost on your 5th level and lower spells, plus an inflated caster level. This is actually the build I'll be playing if I ever get in on another 3.5 game, but I'm not sure if that's ever going to happen considering 5e, PF, and now Starfinder.

That must be helpful...

[Eldariel]

The best dual advancement option (there are tricks for making both sides advance the same thing but not going to that here) is Wizard 5/PRC 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10. Full -1 Wizard and full Nar Demonbinder and very nice CL.

[ATHATH]

If your prepared casting side is a Sha'ir, you could head into Mystic Theurge after finishing Ultimate Magus. Note that, IIRC, the length of time that you can retain your Sha'ir spells is based on your actual Sha'ir level, not your effective spellcasting level.

[Anthrowhale]

If your prepared casting side is a Sha'ir, you could head into Mystic Theurge after finishing Ultimate Magus. Note that, IIRC, the length of time that you can retain your Sha'ir spells is based on your actual Sha'ir level, not your effective spellcasting level.

Ultimate Magus requires
...able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook. so Sha'ir does not qualify (no spellbook). Wizard, Wu-Jen, and Death Master are the classes I know which have access to 9th level spells and use spellbooks.

[Astralia123]

Ultimate Magus requires so Sha'ir does not qualify (no spellbook). Wizard, Wu-Jen, and Death Master are the classes I know which have access to 9th level spells and use spellbooks.

Right...So Death Necromancer won't qualify, either.



Now I kind of think that Arcane/Divine builds would be much easier to make.

[Anthrowhale]

Now I kind of think that Arcane/Divine builds would be much easier to make.

Something like Druid 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2? (Using Alternate Source Spell to early qualify for Mystic Theurge.) You end up with dual 9's and many more spells, but caster level and metamagic (ab)use is modest compared to the Ultimate Magus builds.

[weckar]

A favourite trick of mine is going in with a single class that has both prepared and spontaneous casting for double gains.

Not sure if it is at all RAW, but I've never heard complaints.

[Astralia123]

A favourite trick of mine is going in with a single class that has both prepared and spontaneous casting for double gains.

Not sure if it is at all RAW, but I've never heard complaints.

Ummmm, which class(es)?



Something like Druid 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2? (Using Alternate Source Spell to early qualify for Mystic Theurge.) You end up with dual 9's and many more spells, but caster level and metamagic (ab)use is modest compared to the Ultimate Magus builds.

Something like Wizard X/Archivist X/Anything that loses no CLs X/Anything that grants turning undead 1.

[Eldariel]

Nar Demonbinder derives its CL off Wizard level and only has 7 levels in the progression so just UM suffices to fully advance it. That's why I'd say it's the natural companion.

As for spontaneity, Wizard with e.g. Spontaneous Divination or Uncanny Forethought could be argued to be both. Spontaneous casters with Arcane Preparation likewise.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another fun way to go about it is Trickster ACF for spellthief 1 / wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Unseen seer 5. The Master Spellthief feat not only sets all your arcane caster levels to the same CL, but allows you to cast all arcane spells in light armor.

While you do not advance the ability to hold higher level spells you can steal, master spellthief advances your ability to remove them from your enemies. A cantrip ranged touch attack, applied to a dex denied enemy, can strip them of their best spells. Items can boost that one sneak attack die to three before you even get to unseen seer and add a few more.

[weckar]

The Master Spellthief feat not only sets all your arcane caster levels to the same CL, but allows you to cast all arcane spells in light armor.
This is not how that works. This is not at all how that works.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is not how that works. This is not at all how that works.

I did not post the full text, but it does ensure that your CL for all your classes end up the same. "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

You end up with caster levels higher than your HD when you take a double progression class.

[weckar]

Your levels stack to determine your caster level. Your Caster Levels don't stack to determine your caster level. A subtle but critical difference.

[Astralia123]

Another fun way to go about it is Trickster ACF for spellthief 1 / wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Unseen seer 5. The Master Spellthief feat not only sets all your arcane caster levels to the same CL, but allows you to cast all arcane spells in light armor.

While you do not advance the ability to hold higher level spells you can steal, master spellthief advances your ability to remove them from your enemies. A cantrip ranged touch attack, applied to a dex denied enemy, can strip them of their best spells. Items can boost that one sneak attack die to three before you even get to unseen seer and add a few more.

Does spellthief qualify as a spontaneous casting class? I think it is kinda falls in the grey area, if not undoubted unqualified. Well, as long as your DM permits it, I've got no objection...it seems funny though (if it is usable at all!).


Ohh I didn't notice there's this ACF.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, you end up with less casting than if you stuck with a sorcerer base, but you are never going to get crazy amounts of spellcasting from your side class anyway. It is mostly good for a few nice lower level spells and fuel for metamagic. You end up mostly as a slightly sneaky wizard with some extra casting and really high CL and one lost spellcasting level. In return you get some better skill points at 1st level, light armor, and the ability to deny spell slots from people you sneak attack.

[Anthrowhale]

Your levels stack to determine your caster level. Your Caster Levels don't stack to determine your caster level. A subtle but critical difference.

Right. Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) and Yathrinshee (PGtF) are the two valid mechanisms I know to stack caster levels.

weckar, w.r.t. double advancing a class, the exact text is:

... you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
Which is fully satisfied by a single advancement in a doubly qualifying class.

[AvatarVecna]

You wanna power it up to the point that the lost CLs aren't a drag? Just give the class full double casting on top of its class features. "But that makes it better than Mystic Theurge!" 1) Mystic Theurge gets access to two very different lists regardless of what classes you're combining (which is largely not the case with Ultimate Magus), and even then it's still lagging behind a full straight caster in everything but pure number of spells per day. Heck, Arcane Heirophant Fochlucan Lyrist get real class features, and they double-progress. When you give UM full casting progression, give Mystic Theurge real class features while you're at it, and it might be able to pretend it's good enough to compete with a full caster.

Of course, even if you build MT or UM or FL as they're meant to be played (no early entry, no CL shenanigans, just Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT X or the equivalent), you'll still outshine all the noncasters you play with starting right around lvl 10 (instead of lvl 7).