Who Should I Be? (Character Creation)

[FizzingSoda]

:smallbiggrin: Hello! After some months of having to suspend our campaign a group of friends and I have decided to go back to it and to 3.5
We're relatively still new to it since we have only played one campaign before this so we're still beginners and all that.
We kinda wanna be a little bit RAW just because of the fact we're not that great on balancing stuff yet but some homebrew perks are always welcome.
Anyway, the point is, as with every new campaign what comes is everyone's favourite part! Deciding who am I going to be.. and I need your help with that. :smallsmile: I have a concept so I need your help landing this to the game. Looking for builds and all that

Concept:
I'm looking to create a dual wielding character, which of course would require a feat but I'm not quite sure on the rest of it. Definitely looking for full BAB since I want it to be physical attacker mostly.
Race: I would like something human(oid) or that basically looks like a very young human, around 13-16 years old. One of the options was of course to make a young human but I would like something that maybe just appears to be that since trying out a small race could be cool but nothing below 5 foot tall. Since I want something that relies on physical attacks, I would prefer something that favours either dex or str without sacrificing cha.
Allignment: Chaotic Good. This character looks for the greater good, slightly anarchist-minded and doesn't mind dousing the government if that means helping out overall. Definitely dislikes the evil but would work with them if necessary.
Class: This is something where I need the most help with. I want to dual wield and certainly some dual daggers sound pretty cool but so does sword. I have also started considering the flexibility to have dual crossbows as a secondary weapon for long range, or even main. I would like to avoid rogue though since there's already 2 in the party. (or at least 2 potential ones, since we're all still on that process)

This character basically has people underestimating him all the time and is actually more skilled than what even he thinks, he has trouble believing in himself except when it comes to helping out someone else, in which case he's willing to sacrifice anything, has had a difficult past with him running away from home since he didn't feel like his family supported him and didn't agree with their mindset. Simple family who worked in a farm but believed that some people just had it different and that should be the way. So he decided to look justice for his own and become a hero starting out small but planning to achieve greatness.

Now, just because I mentioned I was mostly looking for BAB doesn't mean im closed to the options of magic if it appeals the concept and you have some ideas.

ALL 3.5 BOOKS ARE WELCOME. (unearthed.. tome of battle...etc.)

[TotallyNotEvil]

Maybe a Swordsage? Tiger Claw sounds like what you are looking for.

[Baby Gary]

Maybe a Swordsage? Tiger Claw sounds like what you are looking for.

good idea. what I don't like about is it that it is restricted to only tiger claw weapons. However there is a even better class, Revenant blade. It are the best twfing class out there (imo) getting the free feats and the 2x damage on charges is so nice

something that I would recommend would be

Ranger 2/ Barbarian 1 (lion spirit totem)/ fighter 2/ Revenant blade 5/ XXX

ranger for skill points, ACFs and TWF. barbarian for whirling frenzy and lion spirit totem, and fighter for more bonus feats and hit and run tactics

then take ITWF and GTWF asap

also check this out The TWF Offhandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook&p=15034585#post15034585)

I would give that a read through, a really good handbook

[Axel_690]

good idea. what I don't like about is it that it is restricted to only tiger claw weapons.

I'm pretty sure you can use maneuvers with any weapon, you just have the chance for minor bonuses if you use the discipline preferred weapons.

Also, shouldn't somebody warn this guy about TWFing? At the least it requires 400,000 GP and 4 feats, and since he's looking for a full BAB class he won't be getting much bonus damage dice which is the bread-and-butter of TWFing.

If you really wanna go TWFing dude I have 4 recommendations:
1. Read that handbook. Read it through 2-3 times and think long and hard on if TWFing is what you wanna do.
2. A Revenant blade build, like the one mention earlier.
3. A lightning maces+roundhouse kick+aptitude weapon kukri build.
4. The Jack B. Quick build.

[Baby Gary]

I'm pretty sure you can use maneuvers with any weapon, you just have the chance for minor bonuses if you use the discipline preferred weapons.

if you don't use 2 daggers or the disciples favored weapons then you can't use claws of the beast (full str for off hand), superior TWF (no -2 penalty), and Rending Claws (+2d6 damage with off hand weapon)

I personally think that those are more than a minor bonus

[tstewt1921]

You could do a dual wielder with a Ranger, you get some free feats to help with your dual wielding and then just expand from there. Depending on how you want to run it you could go into Tempest, or even take a dip into Swordsage for the maneuvers, their are countless ways to go. I always look to Book of 9 last as there are so many options out there.

[noce]

Talking about races here.
If you want to play a not-so-small race, then tallfellow could be an appropriate race. They are relatively tall halflings, but still a small race.
Otherwise, water halflings from unhearted arcana are a good race, they have -2 str and +2 dex +2 con.
Strongheart halflings are a good race too, coupling halfling stats with the human bonus feat.
Talking about small races, whisper gnome from races of stone is a very nice race, it is the best of gnome and halfling worlds.
Since other people suggested revenant blade, keep in mind that wild elves and wood elves are the best elf subraces for that class. The first doesn't have a constitution penalty, while the latter has a strength bonus in addition to the dexterity one.

Do NOT play a half elf. Ever.

[ATHATH]

Do NOT play a half elf. Ever.
Unless you're doing it to get those sweet, sweet Half-Elf Bard substitution levels, and even then, depending on what way your DM rules things, a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat might be able to take those substitution levels and thus get around the need to be a Half-Elf in order to take them.

[DrKerosene]

How about a Ranger 1/Binder4/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Ranger +1/ how high a level do you expect to go?/Truenamer X

I mean, Paimon, gives Weapon Finesse, +4 DEX, and Dance of Death is cool. Maybe swap out Ranger for Whirling Barbarian.

Also, TWF with one weapon in each hand is my assumption here.

If you wanted to use a Greatsword and Armor Spikes, I'm going to have to think more.

Also, would an Illumian, Silverbrow Human, or Karsite be human enough?

Alternatively, Mystic Ranger is an option, even better if you can get permission for Sword of the Arcane Order to work with the class. This class can enter Verdant Lord at level 7.

[Axel_690]

if you don't use 2 daggers or the disciples favored weapons then you can't use claws of the beast (full str for off hand), superior TWF (no -2 penalty), and Rending Claws (+2d6 damage with off hand weapon)

I believe those are the class features of the prestige class based on the Tiger Claw discipline. If hes taking levels in that then yes, he wants to use the favored weapons. I was under impression that he would be taking levels in one of the base classes and just using tiger claw maneuvers.

[theboss]

From my experience, Revenant Blade is the one of the best TWFing build because it lets you combine ubercharging with TWFing. So basically, you take Two weapon pounce feat + leap attack . and you're going to do around 200 damage with the right str score, with full attack you're going to deal alot more.
Btw, instead taking 2 levels in Ranger you can take 2 levels in Exotic weapon master and get Uncany Blow and Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting.


Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting:When wielding the same light exotic weapon in each hand, the character is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If he already has the feat, the penalties on attack rolls are lessened to –1 for both the primary hand and the off hand when fighting in this manner.




Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus ×2 instead of his Strength bonus ×1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls.


So with 2 levels you're going to get twice your strength score to damge and TWFing.
There's also the Comabt Brute feat which I also recommend, It lets you trade 3 points for 1 in Power attack instead of the normal 2 only the round after a charge. so if a foe is going to survive your charge, he's not gonna survive the full attack :smallwink:

Of course, there's also Jack B. Quick build which is also a very strong build. (Played both options with a little changes. Now Revenant Blade).

But I suggest you should combine this class with something more intersting, as mentioned above, Swordsage is a very good option since it lets you do tricks expect: " I charge" or " I full attack".
Both classes are amazing, especially because they're both good on their will save and for a melee that's important.

[Darrin]

also check this out The TWF Offhandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook&p=15034585#post15034585)

I would give that a read through, a really good handbook

Thanks for the plug!

Most of my TWF builds start by answering the question, "How do you want to add bonus damage?", and everything else generally flows from the answer to that question.

Based on the OP's description of a character who is underestimated or has trouble believing in himself, my first thought was "Sneak Attack damage", as it can be very "swing-y": sometimes it's devastating, and sometimes it's meh. However, the OP said there were already two rogues in the party, so my advice would be to use something similar to sneak attack: skirmish damage. So my recommendation would be: Swift Hunter build.

After that, there are two more questions to answer:

What weapons do you want to use (which boils down to a slightly different question, "Do you want to spend a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency?"). I like the symmetry of two shortswords, although longsword/shortsword is perfectly acceptable.

What do you want your dip level to be? What I mean by that is the basic Swift Hunter build maxes out skirmish damage at 5d6 with Scout 4/Ranger 15. That leaves enough room to dip one level of something else, either Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce or Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion (and Turn Undead to use it more often). Pounce never runs out of uses so long as you have multiple opponents within charging distance. Travel Devotion is good against both single and multiple opponents, but you only have a limited number of uses per day (unless your DM lets you get your hands on multiple nightsticks).

Either way, you could work the dip into the story of a young inexperienced skirmisher who has self-confidence issues: either he finds a tribe of savage warriors who teach him how to tap into the fighting spirit of their totem animal, or he finds a religious order that teaches him the discipline and tactical expertise he needs to make his hit-and-run combat style much more devastating.

Story-wise, the Cleric dip probably fits an "inconsistent" skirmisher best. Skirmish may not be working every round, until he turns on "beast mode" and then for the next 10 rounds he's a DPS machine.

So my suggested build stub for a simple Swift Hunter would be:

Ranger 2/Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout +1/Ranger +13.

If you want to do both Cleric and Barbarian dips, we can free up some space by replacing four Ranger levels with Highland Stalker 2. Actually, my preferred Swift Hunter build maxes out Skirmish damage at 10d6 by replacing eight levels of Ranger with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4. It's a bit complicated with how it all fits together, though.

[Zancloufer]

Going to second Sword Sage for a few reasons:

1) Shadow Blade: When in a Shadow Hand stance you add your Dex (not REPLACE, ADD) to the damage dealt with Shadow-hand weapons. Add weapon finesse to it and you can dual wield light weapons and still have "Full Strength" (except Dex instead of, or addition to) on both weapons. You do have to be in a shadow hand stance, but it has some nice ones, especially the one that adds concealment, makes you perpetually flank, or grants +2d6 sneak attack (more bonus damage).

2) Disciple Focus: You can get a free Weapon Focus feat out of it and add Wis to damage when striking from 1-2 different disciples. Gives you some extra spike damage and there are some Tiger Claw manoeuvre that are TWF friendly.

3) Swordsage 20 is a straight forward and easy build that is probably harder to play than it is to build. Essentially it is difficult to make mistakes that will hurt you in the long run with it's decently high floor.

[Axel_690]

From my experience, Revenant Blade is the one of the best TWFing build because it lets you combine ubercharging with TWFing. So basically, you take Two weapon pounce feat + leap attack . and you're going to do around 200 damage with the right str score, with full attack you're going to deal alot more.
Btw, instead taking 2 levels in Ranger you can take 2 levels in Exotic weapon master and get Uncany Blow and Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting.




So with 2 levels you're going to get twice your strength score to damge and TWFing.
There's also the Comabt Brute feat which I also recommend, It lets you trade 3 points for 1 in Power attack instead of the normal 2 only the round after a charge. so if a foe is going to survive your charge, he's not gonna survive the full attack :smallwink:

Of course, there's also Jack B. Quick build which is also a very strong build. (Played both options with a little changes. Now Revenant Blade).

But I suggest you should combine this class with something more intersting, as mentioned above, Swordsage is a very good option since it lets you do tricks expect: " I charge" or " I full attack".
Both classes are amazing, especially because they're both good on their will save and for a melee that's important.

I could be mistaken but i don't believe either of the Exotic Weapon Master abilities you listed work with Revenant Blade, RAW.
The Valenar Double Scimitar(which you are required to wield if you want to use Legendary Force, the whole point of Revenant Blade) is not two light melee weapons, nor is it a one-handed melee weapon. It is an exotic two-handed double weapon, which you treat as light and one-handed weapons when you TWF with it, and you treat both ends as two-handed when you use legendary force.