question about move silently and flight

[skunk3]

If I can fly as a character, is there really any need to make move silently checks?

If I am basically willing myself to go wherever I want to go and not touching the ground, how would I be making noise? It has always been my understanding that move silently checks were to see if you can walk without making enough noise to be heard. Am I wrong here?

[Necroticplague]

If I can fly as a character, is there really any need to make move silently checks?

If I am basically willing myself to go wherever I want to go and not touching the ground, how would I be making noise? It has always been my understanding that move silently checks were to see if you can walk without making enough noise to be heard. Am I wrong here?

It's Move Silently, not Walk Silently. Flying creatures still make noise when moving, and they still need to make the check to move quietly.

[Kobold Esq]

If I can fly as a character, is there really any need to make move silently checks?

If I am basically willing myself to go wherever I want to go and not touching the ground, how would I be making noise? It has always been my understanding that move silently checks were to see if you can walk without making enough noise to be heard. Am I wrong here?

Short version: Yes. You're wrong. Stop trying to justify your wrongness. You continue to be wrong. You made this thread knowing you were wrong, and hoping you would get support. You won't. Because you are wrong. So very wrong.

I hope that clears things up.

[Twurps]

'willing yourself around' or otherwise, you are still moving, and moving makes noise.

I'm not familiar with any 'willling yourself around' form of movement, but I'll asume you mean magic. I've always found it amusing if people try to apply any kind of real world fysics to anything magical. Don't do it, it won't work. Either use fysics, in which case: magic isn't possible. Or use d&d rules, in which case: Magic is very possible, by the rules stated in the book, which state moving silently requires a move silently check.

as for the 'not touching the ground' part. That's included in the rules for move silently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/moveSilently.htm). You prevent having either a -2 or -5 penalty over noisy terrain.

[Gruftzwerg]

you always need to roll move silently as the others have pointed out.
The only thing you get is that you skip any ground related situation penalties (like an old wooden floor which would make noise). That's the bonus you're looking for imho.

[Mr Adventurer]

Everyone so far except OP is correct. But now I'm thinking about fun environmental effects that could affect a flying Move Silently check. Ash storm that 'pings' off armour and equipment? Harmless insect swarm that buzzes more angrily?

[Crake]

Short version: Yes. You're wrong. Stop trying to justify your wrongness. You continue to be wrong. You made this thread knowing you were wrong, and hoping you would get support. You won't. Because you are wrong. So very wrong.

I hope that clears things up.

This post was needlessly hostile. It's quite clear where the OP was coming from. Imagine any form of supernatural flight, you're moving about, but you can keep your body entirely still as you move, because the movement requires no motion on your behalf. Thinking about it like that, there's no shuffling of cloth against cloth, no footsteps, no chinking of armor. The only reason you don't get a bonus is because nothing was written in about it, but it totally seems plausible that you should.

[Gruftzwerg]

This post was needlessly hostile. It's quite clear where the OP was coming from. Imagine any form of supernatural flight, you're moving about, but you can keep your body entirely still as you move, because the movement requires no motion on your behalf. Thinking about it like that, there's no shuffling of cloth against cloth, no footsteps, no chinking of armor. The only reason you don't get a bonus is because nothing was written in about it, but it totally seems plausible that you should.

The DM has the freedom/duty to add any situational bonuses and penalties that are not on the table, who would fit the situation.
If it is really perfect (maneuverability) supernatural flight, I would suggest a bonus of up to +5 (or +3 if you think 5 is to strong). If it is just regular winged flight (like a bird) with clumsy (maneuverability) movement only a +1.

edit: but the OP wasn't asking for a bonus, he asked for skipping the roll entirely what it something on another lvl. (but I don't think he had ill intends ;)

[Necroticplague]

This post was needlessly hostile. It's quite clear where the OP was coming from. Imagine any form of supernatural flight, you're moving about, but you can keep your body entirely still as you move, because the movement requires no motion on your behalf. Thinking about it like that, there's no shuffling of cloth against cloth, no footsteps, no chinking of armor. The only reason you don't get a bonus is because nothing was written in about it, but it totally seems plausible that you should.

Except I don't think even supernatural flight is like that. You don't just translate your desired location with no effort from yourself. You and your stuff still have momentum and weight, and you still displace whatever medium you move through (unless you're incorporeal, but you wouldn't need to wonder if that was the case). Thus, you can still make noise.

Per examplar: if you Run in the air, your fast speed will displace air very quickly, so you'd be likely heard by the 'whoosh' as you go past. If you turn at all, different parts of you will move at different speeds (ones closer to axis of rotation move slower), so you'd best hope this doesn't cause any rustling or clanging.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except I don't think even supernatural flight is like that. You don't just translate your desired location with no effort from yourself. You and your stuff still have momentum and weight, and you still displace whatever medium you move through (unless you're incorporeal, but you wouldn't need to wonder if that was the case). Thus, you can still make noise.

Per examplar: if you Run in the air, your fast speed will displace air very quickly, so you'd be likely heard by the 'whoosh' as you go past. If you turn at all, different parts of you will move at different speeds (ones closer to axis of rotation move slower), so you'd best hope this doesn't cause any rustling or clanging.

most part of what you said (beside from speed) fits more to "good maneuverability" and imho wouldn't apply to "perfect maneuverability".

As said, I could see how DMs might give a situational bonus depending on environment and your fly maneuverability (and another +1 if it is supernatural flight maybe) from +1 up to +5.

[Twurps]

most part of what you said (beside from speed) fits more to "good maneuverability" and imho wouldn't apply to "perfect maneuverability".

As said, I could see how DMs might give a situational bonus depending on environment and your fly maneuverability (and another +1 if it is supernatural flight maybe) from +1 up to +5.

Actually: I don't get how maneuverability has anything to do with how much noise you make. A hummingbird has much better maneuverability than an owl. Yet a hummingbird is easy to detect by sound, where an owl is not.

Of course there is the: 'but magic' argument. Well: the books may state you can fly magically without any effort, without wings, and with perfect maneuverability, but they don't say it's silent. For all we know, the very fabrics of reality/fysics moan and crack from the stress they are put under. More likely*, it doesn't make a lot of sound at all, but maneuverability still isn't a factor.

*Likely as in: the rules never mention abundant noise. Nothing magical is ever really 'likely'

[Psyren]

I think you do need to roll unless you're incorporeal, but I also don't think "owl gliding in for the kill" necessarily applies to all flying creatures. Depending on the means, it can be easier to hear them (e.g. flapping wings) or harder. It should really only matter if the listener has a chance of making a check that high anyway.

[skunk3]

I was never asking for any sort of bonus or a bending/breaking of the rules. It was just a question that popped into my head and I wanted to see what other people think, that's all.

The reason why it popped into my head is because I have a character (Eldritch Disciple) that will soon be getting the Fell Flight invocation and it seems to me that floating/flying above the ground would be significantly more quiet than moving on my feet. For a moment imagine that you were wearing some armor. Let's just say a chain shirt for example. You'd be a hell of a lot more likely to make noise walking (or even sneaking) in it than using a supernatural ability to fly.

I understand that move silently checks are going to still have to be rolled. I just think it's kinda dumb.

[Nifft]

Fly spells apparently make a bunch of noise unless you're trained in how to move silently.

Maybe it's a loud, annoying buzzing sound as of many wings.

Borne aloft by a swarm of magical flies.

[Necroticplague]

Fly spells apparently make a bunch of noise unless you're trained in how to move silently.

Maybe it's a loud, annoying buzzing sound as of many wings.

Borne aloft by a swarm of magical flies.

Not a bunch of noise, just as much noise as any other form of movement.

[Psyren]

Not a bunch of noise, just as much noise as any other form of movement.

I wouldn't even go that far. I'd be fine with applying the "owl glide" DC to Fly, with maybe a size penalty to account for the greater amount of "displaced air" between a Tiny owl and a Medium humanoid, then adding in the distance modifiers as normal.

[Nifft]

Not a bunch of noise, just as much noise as any other form of movement.

You seem to be repeating what I said, but phrasing it as disagreement.

Could you be more specific, to illustrate what you think the difference between our posts might be?



I wouldn't even go that far. I'd be fine with applying the "owl glide" DC to Fly, with maybe a size penalty to account for the greater amount of "displaced air" between a Tiny owl and a Medium humanoid, then adding in the distance modifiers as normal.

Laughably wrong.



Skills

Owls have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks and a +14 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


Owls fly quietly because they have a bonus to fly quietly.

Nobody else gets that for free.

[Astralia123]

I was never asking for any sort of bonus or a bending/breaking of the rules. It was just a question that popped into my head and I wanted to see what other people think, that's all.

The reason why it popped into my head is because I have a character (Eldritch Disciple) that will soon be getting the Fell Flight invocation and it seems to me that floating/flying above the ground would be significantly more quiet than moving on my feet. For a moment imagine that you were wearing some armor. Let's just say a chain shirt for example. You'd be a hell of a lot more likely to make noise walking (or even sneaking) in it than using a supernatural ability to fly.

I understand that move silently checks are going to still have to be rolled. I just think it's kinda dumb.

If you fly with the fly spell, you maneuverability is Good, which means you need to keep constant moving while you fly.

Which, is sufficient to make a lot of noises. It is not like what you might think of in your imagine (which is most likely some sort of perfect-maneuverability-totally-silent flying, like a beholder or demilich.)


You know, even when you can be so silent that your footstep make negligible noises, the friction of your clothes might make sound, your key rings might cling in your pocket, your mobile phone might buzz unexpectedly, you may accidentally run into some furniture, etc.

And as an adventurer, your character might carry quite a collection of accessories that are very likely to make sounds - armor, gauntlets, swords, maces, daggers, chain weapons, healing potions, coins, scrolls, some skulls or dried eyeballs of your past enemies, and all those weird stuff your character might come across and happen to decide to carry with him.


I say you have an incorrect image of the move-silently-ability of an adventurer.

[Nifft]

Which, is sufficient to make a lot of noises. It is not like what you might think of in your imagine (which is most likely some sort of perfect-maneuverability-totally-silent flying, like a beholder or demilich.)

Maybe the way a Demilich flies is by mentally compelling a cluster of ghost-slaves to carry it around.

Of course, the ghost-slaves chant ominously (in Latin for +4 ominous).


I don't have anything off the top of my head for a Beholder's flight noises, but they get no bonus to Move Silently, so it would presumably be audible as well.

Maybe an actively moving Beholder makes a noise like some kind of radio static, because of how it conflicts with conventional reality.

[Psyren]

If you fly with the fly spell, you maneuverability is Good, which means you need to keep constant moving while you fly.

False, you can Hover at Good Maneuverability in both editions.


Hover
The ability to stay in one place while airborne.

[Astralia123]

Maybe the way a Demilich flies is by mentally compelling a cluster of ghost-slaves to carry it around.

Of course, the ghost-slaves chant ominously (in Latin for +4 ominous).


I don't have anything off the top of my head for a Beholder's flight noises, but they get no bonus to Move Silently, so it would presumably be audible as well.

Maybe an actively moving Beholder makes a noise like some kind of radio static, because of how it conflicts with conventional reality.

Well, they are monsters, so a DM who is not quite obsessive-compulsive might just ignore that and assume they fly perfectly silently.
Of course, nothing stops a demilich from cursing mindlessly while showing up from a random corridor, so that doesn't really cause any problems, as long as it continues to be an issue-of-DM-ruling.

[Nifft]

Well, they are monsters, so a DM who is not quite obsessive-compulsive might just ignore that and assume they fly perfectly silently.
Of course, nothing stops a demilich from cursing mindlessly while showing up from a random corridor, so that doesn't really cause any problems, as long as it continues to be an issue-of-DM-ruling.

Hmm, I feel like an OCD-DM might be more likely to just apply the rules relentlessly, not worrying about "realism" or such.

By applying the rules relentlessly, you get no special exception for fliers -- make a Listen check vs. their Move Silently, see who rolled higher, done.

In this case, an OCD-DM would be technically correct (the best kind of correct) and also coincidentally running a fairer game. There's really no downside to being an OCD-DM on this issue.

[weckar]

Short version: Yes. You're wrong. Stop trying to justify your wrongness. You continue to be wrong. You made this thread knowing you were wrong, and hoping you would get support. You won't. Because you are wrong. So very wrong.

I hope that clears things up.Are you involved in this situation or something? It seems a fair point of discussion.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you fly with the fly spell, you maneuverability is Good, which means you need to keep constant moving while you fly.



You get "hover" for free starting with "good" maneuverability. So no reason to constant moving with "fly" spell. All mentioned things are for things with a lower maneuverability than good.


@ Owls:
Owls are special. They have special feathers that are super silent while slicing (?) trough the air. That is the reason why they get such a high move silently bonus imho, not because their sole ability to fly.
But this can be a good guideline how special circumstances could apply. Imho it's DM fiat area where you need to bargain for a bonus which fits your form of flight.

@Armor noise:
this is already covered by the armor penalty, so I don't see any reason why people refer to this, when others are asking for a bonus due to fly?
Imho one has nothing to do with the other. You could get a slight bonus for not moving on the ground, but still use your regular armor penalty.

[Darrin]

The reason why it popped into my head is because I have a character (Eldritch Disciple) that will soon be getting the Fell Flight invocation and it seems to me that floating/flying above the ground would be significantly more quiet than moving on my feet.

In my game, I would say that Fell Flight *also* creates a black velvet cape that billows out behind you dramatically, snapping in the wind. Any insistence on your part that the invocation's description contains no such text about this would likely be met with a blank stare of indifference.

[Astralia123]

False, you can Hover at Good Maneuverability in both editions.

Well, my mistake. But hover obviously makes noises?



Hmm, I feel like an OCD-DM might be more likely to just apply the rules relentlessly, not worrying about "realism" or such.

By applying the rules relentlessly, you get no special exception for fliers -- make a Listen check vs. their Move Silently, see who rolled higher, done.

In this case, an OCD-DM would be technically correct (the best kind of correct) and also coincidentally running a fairer game. There's really no downside to being an OCD-DM on this issue.

No intentions for sarcasm to OCD ; ) I'm sort of OCD about the rules myself.

[Astralia123]

@ Owls:
Owls are special. They have special feathers that are super silent while slicing (?) trough the air. That is the reason why they get such a high move silently bonus imho, not because their sole ability to fly.
But this can be a good guideline how special circumstances could apply. Imho it's DM fiat area where you need to bargain for a bonus which fits your form of flight.

@Armor noise:
this is already covered by the armor penalty, so I don't see any reason why people refer to this, when others are asking for a bonus due to fly?
Imho one has nothing to do with the other. You could get a slight bonus for not moving on the ground, but still use your regular armor penalty.

Normal clothes *might* make noticeable noises in reality. So even when some armor bear no penalty, they are not considered perfectly silent. - My opinion.
And a low move silently check might as well mean you make accidental noises by running into and/or dropping something and/or an unintentional “ouch!”.

[Gruftzwerg]

Normal clothes *might* make noticeable noises in reality. So even when some armor bear no penalty, they are not considered perfectly silent. - My opinion.
And a low move silently check might as well mean you make accidental noises by running into and/or dropping something and/or an unintentional “ouch!”.

We ain't arguing wether or not to roll (anymore).

The question should be:

Is there a situational difference between walking on the ground and moving through the air when moving silently?

Imho yes: try to sneak for yourself and you'll easily notice the most noise comes in the moment of contact between your feet and the ground.

This leads me to the conclusion that there should be some kind of bonus involved, unless your form of flight causes extra sounds (e.g. flapping wings).

But as said, in the end it will be up to DM decision if there will be bonuses for fliers or not.

[Psyren]

Well, my mistake. But hover obviously makes noises?

Does it? I'm not sure you need to make a "Move Silently" check if you aren't actually moving, so their Listen check would automatically fail.

[Darrin]

There's also the argument that this is exactly what the "+2 circumstance" bonus for favorable conditions was designed to address (PHB p. 64).

[Fouredged Sword]

Here is a breakdown of it gliding at it from the suggested DC for an owl gliding in for the kill as a DC 30 listen check.

First we assume this is an opposed check with the owl taking 10. This means it has a +20 bonus to move silently in this situation. Owls get a +17 skill modifier from various things like their racial bonus, dex, and size.

This suggests that gliding grants a +3 circumstance bonus to move silent checks. I would remove this bonus for an owl attempting to flap it's wings quietly, making that a DC 27 listen check.

As a DM I would suggest a +3 circumstance bonus to any character who can fly without physical motion and no bonus or penalty for a character who's flight requires movement such as wings.

This is moving at half your listed speed, so creatures of average or Maneuverability MUST move half their flight speed. Moving your full speed or running would apply the standard -5 and -20 penalty to the check.

For a point of comparison, a great wyrm red dragon (without ranks in move silently and taking 10) attempting to quietly glide in for the kill would be a DC -3 listen check. The check is DC 40 if the dragon has max ranks in move silently.

[Nifft]

Here is a breakdown of it gliding at it from the suggested DC for an owl gliding in for the kill as a DC 30 listen check.

First we assume this is an opposed check with the owl taking 10. This means it has a +20 bonus to move silently in this situation. Owls get a +17 skill modifier from various things like their racial bonus, dex, and size.

This suggests that gliding grants a +3 circumstance bonus to move silent checks. I would remove this bonus for an owl attempting to flap it's wings quietly, making that a DC 27 listen check.

Does that account for distance?

An owl has a fly speed of 40 ft., and each 10 ft. of distance give +1 to the Listen DC.

So if an owl were to start her predatory approach ~35 ft. out, she'd get a +3 bonus purely on the basis of distance.

[Fouredged Sword]

Does that account for distance?

An owl has a fly speed of 40 ft., and each 10 ft. of distance give +1 to the Listen DC.

So if an owl were to start her predatory approach ~35 ft. out, she'd get a +3 bonus purely on the basis of distance.

I made the assumption that the check is not accounting for distance. The distance modifier is listed on a separate table and none of the other DC's listed in the first table account for distance. The assumption is at 10ft distant.

[Nifft]

I made the assumption that the check is not accounting for distance. The distance modifier is listed on a separate table and none of the other DC's listed in the first table account for distance. The assumption is at 10ft distant.

10 ft. is +1, and then the standard circumstance bonus of +2 would add up to +3 total.

Interesting.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can run numbers and assumptions to come up with all sorts of conclusions. Your result is perfectly valid.

[Nifft]

You can run numbers and assumptions to come up with all sorts of conclusions. Your result is perfectly valid.
IMHO it's fun to see how "elegant" we can get the system by minimizing assumptions yet still getting the numbers to match.


There's also the argument that this is exactly what the "+2 circumstance" bonus for favorable conditions was designed to address (PHB p. 64).

^^^ This, for example, is an elegant rule.

[Psyren]

So if we're saying that the DC 30 comes from the Owl's +14 racial, does that mean other birds of prey (like, say, hawks) are significantly louder while hunting?

[SirNibbles]

There's also the argument that this is exactly what the "+2 circumstance" bonus for favorable conditions was designed to address (PHB p. 64).

That seems fair.

Of course, the rules don't cover everything, such as the fact that Move Silently becomes impossible once you've got a movement speed of more than 6752 feet per round.

[Thurbane]

If I was feeling generous as a DM, I might give a +2 circumstance bonus to Move Silently for a creature using magical flight.

Other than that, as mentioned, it's Move Silently, not Walk Silently.

[Gruftzwerg]

So if we're saying that the DC 30 comes from the Owl's +14 racial, does that mean other birds of prey (like, say, hawks) are significantly louder while hunting?

At least in reality this is true. As said, owls have special feathers who are more silent while flying compared to feathers from other birds. It wouldn't surprise me if D&D implemented this nice fact. They have done their research really well imho.

[Psyren]

At least in reality this is true. As said, owls have special feathers who are more silent while flying compared to feathers from other birds. It wouldn't surprise me if D&D implemented this nice fact. They have done their research really well imho.

Hawks are pretty quiet. I might buy that owls are quieter, but +14 quieter? That's a lot harder to swallow. (Heh, swallow.)

[Gruftzwerg]

Hawks are pretty quiet. I might buy that owls are quieter, but +14 quieter? That's a lot harder to swallow. (Heh, swallow.)

Here is a nice article about the unique stealth feathers owls have:

Owlpages.com (https://www.owlpages.com/owls/articles.php?a=7)


The most unique adaptation of Owl feathers is the comb-like or fimbriate (fringe-like) leading edge of the primary wing feathers referred to as "flutings" or "fimbriae". With a normal bird in flight, air rushes over the surface of the wing, creating turbulence, which makes a gushing noise. With an Owl's wing, the comb-like feather edge breaks down the turbulence into little groups called micro-turbulences. This effectively muffles the sound of the air rushing over the wing surface and allows the Owl to fly silently. There is also an alternative theory that the flutings actually shift the sound energy created by the wingbeats to a higher frequency spectrum, where most creatures (including prey and humans) cannot hear.

So yeah, owls are natural stealth fighters :smallbiggrin:
and yeah, they are that awesome ;)

[Psyren]

Fair enough, it seems that owls are uniquely stealthy among even other birds of prey. I do still think the designers went overboard with +14 MS but it does at least seem to be based on something genuine.